FYI, BMW's M has been around for a long time, they were bring M5's out here in the late 80's also the M6's, along w/ the E30 M3 which is still said to be the best M car ever and one of the most fun cars of all time

But yes, I think the 99 E55 followed by the 2000 M6 definately set the road for GT sedans. The Jag was up there in power but didn't have the finese.

 

I'll give my opinion:

Passenger cars: VQ

Performance Cars: GM LSx(1,2,6,7)

 

Yeah, after the Smog laws (and ugly bumper laws) kicked in for 1973, the musclecar era was officially dead.

70's cars sucked for the most part, and didn't get much better in the 80's...

The 90's would be about where they started...

Yeah, that sounds about right to me... 1992/1993... NSX and ZR1 probably kicked off the new HP wars...

 

Yep, but talking pure HP numbers between the two of them, that has only been going on since really the E36 M3, C36/C43, and E55.

And I agree completely about the E30 M3....

 

a friend of mines dad had an old M6, that thing was so fucking pimp!!!!!


Remember though, AMG and //M have always had a good rivalry, we just never heard about it because MBZ didn't bring AMG on board till the late 90's. So it wasn't a factory rivalry because AMG was an aftermarket company.

 

Here's my .

There's 2 HP wars. There's the normal HP wars, and then the crazy HP wars.

The normal HP wars were started in the 90's, and include any number of other cars mentioned in this thread. But I think with sports cars, its not as big a deal as with, family sedans, for instance. So with sports cars, power increases are pretty much expected. The early 90's Japanese sports cars did raise the bar in a BIG way, kudos to them for that.

There is only one root of the crazy HP wars: AMG. 612 hp and 738 ft-lbs of torque, stock, in a family sedan. That is a pure, unadultered, indulgent, and all-encompassing ownage. You could argue that AMG has basically been doing their own thing, with the hallmark car being the 1987 AMG Hammer - once AMG merged with MB - i.e. AMG models straight from your MB dealer, the deal was done. It's only now that everyone else is catching up.

 

The 80's BMW M-models were fast, but not ridiculous fast. The AMG Hammer did the quarter in 13.5 @ 109.. in 1987. Don't know the trap speed off-hand but the 1987 M6 did the 1/4 in mid 15's.

 

Yes, but as mentioned, AMG was a tuner at the time , so you'd compare them more to what Gemballa was doing w/ the porsches, etc.

 

Can you say Mustang vs. Camaro vs. Firebird....

 

But since when did a TLS compete with an Altima? Maybe for some of you it did but I not for me.

 

I guess you can add the 5.0 to the list too. Even though it wasn't anything special in stock form, the aftermarket sure does love it. The modular engines were underpowered until recently. Us Ford guys have been outgunned since the LT1 was introduced.

 

I would have to agree the '99 E55 started the "crazy" HP wars. The AMG Hammer was mentioned as more of an 'anecdote'.

 

I don't see how they really didn't. If i'm not mistaken a fully loaded Altima came out to about 28K just a little cheaper then a TL-S Also remember, the V6 accords weren't that far off as well.

 

Ok, maybe thats the problem. Not in this country. A TLS was closer to 40 and I think 41 in its last model year while an Altima stickered at 33-34 loaded.

 

I'd say BMW M did more for the performance envelope than AMG.

As for the crazy hp wars, you can trace that back to the muscle car days. Emissions ruined it for a while, but it's back.

 

Just a curious question, when did you get into cars?

 

I agree, if we are talking about performance, in general. But, we are only talking about HP.

 

Don't forget the 322HP S/C I6 XJR in '95 and then the 370HP S/C V8 XJR in '98.

 

I agree.

Having been around for the late 70's and early 80's I can remember the poor performance of cars from that era. Then in 82' came the HO Mustang, then the 195 hp 5.0 camaro. 85' 210 hp Mustang, followed by the TPI 5.0/5.7 Chevrolets. What really did it for me was the 86' Buick Grand National. In 1986 Buick produced a car that ran 0-60 in 4.9 seconds and ran the quarter mile high 13's in factory trim. On 215 radials. Car and Driver and most publications claimed the horsepower rating was somewhat on the conservative side. Just as manufacturers did in the late 60's. Slicks and C16 you were in the 12's.

Having owned several, my 86' I purchased new still resides in the garage, coming out a few times a year to yank the world backwards.

Terry

 

the XJR is the OG high powered sedan IMO.....it used to be the fastest 4 door sedan in the world....

 

Since when were there not horsepower wars? Besides the gas-conscious age of the 70s every car manufacturer since the Model T has been boasting power gains.

 

touché

 

Do you disagree with my CAD pricing?

An Altima and TL do not compete with each other IMO.

 

up there it didn't, down here it did, that's regardless of this whole thread where I and many others still at the thought you think Nissan started the wars


The Nissans HP was rivaled by who you called a competitor 10 years prior, you are also comparing a new model that was compared to two (accord and camry) that were seriously outdated and due for makeups the next year. if you don't think Honda already had that motor developed they put in the V6 accord when the Altima was released, you'd be wrong. And going from 200 -> 240 in a car that gained a few hundred pounds would have been a requirement, and anything from a war.


So point still stands at nissan starting it

 

Honestly, I was thinking more along the lines of what Saki just said when I saw this thread, I swear My original statement "When I think of HP wars I think of Nissan" was more a reflection of today rather than 10 or 20 years ago. Practically every car in the Nissan lineup from 02 has been the most powerful car in its class. Which also happened to coincide with Nissan's turnaround. When I currently think of HP per $ Nissan is right there.

 

I did mention the 93 Camaro/Firebird didn't I?

 

i'm still not sure how you look at nissan even today, but oh well


But then again, when you build a motor for your sports car, then decide to put it in everything, well, you get a lot of HP ( why won't chevy bring over the 4 door LS1/LS2 powered cars they have floating around the country )

 

Maybe not today considering Toyota's 3.5L but most of their cars were the most powerful cars in their class up til recently. And please correct me if I'm wrong.


Exactly.


You mean other countries right? Why won't they? I don't know. I guessing its the same reason Ford doesn't bring over the Turbo or V8 Falcon.

 

well the year after Honda released the V6 that was what 10 shy? which we knew was comming. I wouldn't consider a 10 HP difference anything extravigant



and :bash: Ford as well

 

What about TQ?

 

Don't fool yourselves. Its when Honda came out with VTEC.

 

Fixed.

 

AMG wasn't big until the mid 90s and they were a "tuner" until 90 when Damiler Benz bought them out.

 

 

good calls. BUT... they haven't done much more than that. I think the highest was the S-Type R, at 400hp, no?

On another note, I have to say I like it when companies have F1 presence. Along with other motorspors. But F1 is at the top. Jaguar used to, so I give em a .

 

The reason I don't think Jag has upgraded the HP on their supercharged V8s is because they've made their cars lighter, which then in turn made them faster



And the car that started the HP wars was the 300SL..........150mph in 1954

 

um, the XJR weighs 4K

 

Audi 1.8t

 

Compared to the other cars in it's class the XJ is much lighter.

 

the S550 benz is close to it, and the 7 series bMW is 400 lbs more (which I wouldn't consider MUCH lighter)

if you made its competition the E55 and new M5, it's dead even as far as weight