mmafighta

Lol...if these German cars were even half bit reliable as the Japanese cars...they would top the market from top to bottom.

oonowindoo

Hey you can't have everything.

You want reliability, be a follower (the current Honda/Acura). Wait until everyone else work out all the bugs on the new tech, then you introduce it 4 or 5 years later.

or you can be the guinea pig and test out all the new tech (whether it is from BMW, Merc or Audi) but be prepared that shits will break.

Sarlacc

I didn't realize fuel pumps, coil packs, and the likes of issues that came from those three were considered tech glitches...Oh, and Lexus anyone?

PS: Hasn't Mercedes been striving and earning their rep at being pretty reliable again these days?

Sarlacc

english...

SamDoe1

I kind of said it tongue in cheek but after reading it again, I don't think I was kidding at all. When a Mustang GT with a solid rear axle and 50% of the MSRP can lap a race track just as fast as your race bred $80k M3, there's a problem. BMW has not stepped up their game at all. The F series cars are large, lazy, and beyond expensive for what you get. Other than the badge, they offer nothing to me I can't get somewhere else for much less money. BMW has been pretty clear they want to make a bazillion niche low volume models and not what they made in the past. The M235i is the closest you can get to a car that honors the heyday of BMW but it costs $50,000 (that's FIFTY THOUSAND DOLLARS) for a small two door coupe. Are you fvcking kidding me? No one in their right mind should buy that car, but they sell just fine. Why? Because of the badge.

If nothing else, the 320i is the closest to a real BMW you can get. A 320i with 6mt, RWD, and sport package is the lightest, best handling non-M 3 series you can buy right now. IMO, it's the one to get since you get all of the above for ~$35k. A tune would kick the power up to higher levels, and you'd still get what you want, a great handling German sport sedan.

328i and 335i are overpriced for what they are.

So why did you buy this car knowing that it was basically trying to kill itself? Do you plan on keeping it after the warranty expires?

I never want to own a car that I'm afraid to drive because it may break halfway to where I'm going. That's not fun at all, it's nerve racking.

The last of the NA V8s is a good motor but still not worth it in an E60. Should have spent your cash on a E39 M5 and called it good. I'm a fan of the LCI E60 styling, I think it looks decent and surely much better than the first gen.

Cheap, Fast, Reliable. Pick two.

+1

Lexus puts in all of the same tech BMW does and they don't break. Why not?

MB and Porsche have been tops in reliability for the past 5ish years.

sanjbaby

I decided to buy the last year of the e60 because most of the issues have been worked out. Also, to be honest I loved the options and specs on the car. It comes with almost every option available other than HUD and night vision. 2 items I could live without. As well as the 360Hp and 360 Torque engine has been fun to drive on my daily commute.

I would like to keep the car after the warranty is done, I found a good Indy shop that I can take the car to for repairs and maintenace after that point. We'll see how things go. I bought with 33K miles on it and I have 61K now.

oonowindoo

Those by themselves are not tech glitches but those are directly related to N54, which pretty much changed the whole industry performance standard in that segment when everyone was still using the good ole V6.

Germans can say what they want. Reliability is definitely not their selling point. Maybe things have been improved but if we are strictly talking about reliability, they are still on the bottom of the list and the market shows, their customers are perfectly ok with that.

Soon Laser headlight, air gesture controls, 5th gen idrive, more Camera than red carpet events and even a 3D view Camera oh and the transmission is connected to GPS, so it will adjust its sensitivity and downshift based on GPS. All these are confirmed with the next 7 series that is scheduled to be released within the next few months.

I could see so many things go wrong already.

oo7spy

I won't be surprised when you don't believe me (nor will I care), but Honda (Japan) and Acura have put up plenty of production automobile firsts. If I had more knowledge of BMW, I would venture to say Honda has more. In any case, I would gladly bet that the rate of automobile firsts * units sold / warranty claims is significantly higher for Honda.

When has Honda ever been one to follow anyone else?

oonowindoo

I agree with you about the pricing and how BMW is going after the mainstream customers that don't care about what made BMW a BMW.

But pricing is not about what we think. It is decided by the market/competitors and how much people are willing to pay for it. I am sure Lexus will adjust IS350 Fsport's MSRP to $60k if they know they have no problem selling it.

50k for a M235i and you can load up a 335i to close to $60k without M performance accessories and you can load a 435i to over $65k.

But have you checked the pricings for a fully loaded C400, C450 or S5 and other BMW's direct competitors? (not Acura or Lexus)

They are all within $1000 or 2 with each other. Expensive yes, but as long as they can get away with it, they will.

oonowindoo

Doubt it.

I think you are talking about the innovative Honda/Acura from 15 or 20 years ago.

I can give you 2 recent examples, Direct Injection in the US and more advanced Auto tranny. Do you know how long it took them to release those?
and there are still many things are pretty much standard in the market and they still have not introduced them yet in the US. Force Induction Engines in TLX.

oo7spy

DI and higher gear trannys are good examples of Honda following suit. But I am unconvinced that BMW is a technological leader while Honda is for followers.

LKAS was barely edged out by Toyota. CMBS was introduced by Honda. Torque vectoring in an AWD appears to be introduced by Honda, and I am unaware of another car on the market that uses independent electric motors to drive individual wheels. There are a decent number of features that Honda was the first to introduce since 2000 as well, but the ones that I just mentioned have had a very significant impact on the way that cars drive today.

oonowindoo

I am talking Germans as a whole (BMW, Audi and Merc). Their own competition here in US and in Europe is ridiculous. That has resulted in some great automotive achievement and some ridiculous stupid craps.

To answer your Electric motors to drive individual wheels: i8 and it can run all pure electricity or gas or half/half and it can charge itself.... In sport+ mode only

SamDoe1

I agree completely but you can't tell me that those people aren't largely buying a badge. I bet 95% of BMW's customers give 0 fucks about how it drives and don't even have any idea of what engine is under the hood. All they see is bigger number = better and M = better still. They want the prestige that comes with owning one, not the experience of it.

All of the other German manufacturers are guilty of the same stuff. MB is starting to get to the point where it's worth it though. The interiors, reliability, and uniqueness of the new MB cars are on another level. Audi has and always will be the lowest in reliability as any other VW car is.

Don't get me wrong though, BMW before the mid 00's was the benchmark in luxury performance. All of their cars were worth every penny you paid over that sh1tty Taurus on the lot next door. However, now that Taurus SHO can destroy (in terms of performance) your garden variety 5 series without trying and for $30k less and have many of the same features.

fixed.

Also electric motors driving individual wheels are in which Honda car now?

oonowindoo

Of course, and that is the same for all Luxury brand buyers, even Acura. But if you look at the other way, it shows how successful the brand is, you have to be doing something right for you to offer shit and charge more and people will buy and thank you for it.
That is the same argument that you can apply to a lot of things:

335i costs twice as much as a WRX but is it twice the car?
a NSX probably cost 7 times more than a s2000 but is it 7 times the car?
Taurus SHO is just as fast or not faster than 5. but does it make you feel the same way? We are materialistic by nature and we all want better things, otherwise, all of us will be driving Corolla and Civics.

We are talking about Luxury unnecessary items here, they are never about value and you are paying more for what you want, not what you need.

I think he was talking about the RLX Sport hybrid that doesn't exist now or the Vapery NSX.

oo7spy

Doesn't exist? Bob DDs an imaginary car?

ttribe

He's referring to the rumor that Acura may have discontinued that version of the RLX.

oo7spy

I'm up to speed now. It will be available again in a month. Not sure why a discontinued model takes away from automotive ingenuity though.

oonowindoo

In a month?

All i know is it has been removed from Acura's website for quite some time now.

It appeared when no one cared anymore (Except for Bob obviously) and disappeared again without many people knowing.... the most expensive and technological advanced Acura flagship.

and you want to talk about discontinued models? well i ain't got time for that because there have been way too many unless you wanna talk about S2000.

oo7spy

But still, why does it matter? Do McLaren F1s exist now? Does that take away from the boundaries the car pushed? The answer is a resounding "no". Whether you want to believe it or not, Honda has lead the automotive industry to enough firsts to deserve its credit, and at the same time kept a solid hold on reliability only behind Toyota. If you want to be a follower, buy a Hyundai. The idea that field failures are inherent to automotive ingenuity is an apologist's excuse for BMWs poor rap.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

oonowindoo

Hyundai is more innovative than Honda/Acura in 2015.

Hyundai might be a follower but at least they are following the leaders, not in their own world and living off its past reputation.

But hey you were the one who thought Honda had no other tranny problems other than the current 9ZF.

neuronbob

....and this is why I keep buying Honda products. They are not perfect, and they sometimes take time to acknowledge a problem, but you can be sure that Honda would not gloss over a battery drainage problem by requiring a battery replacement at every oil change. That's just crazy.

I'd still lease a BMW 650i in a heartbeat. Not buy, lease....

SamDoe1

BMW just doesn't give a sh1t. People will buy them no matter what happens because the majority of people lease and not buy. They won't ever have to pay out of pocket for the battery swap.

Black Tire

Remember, the 2016 CAFE standards come into effect next year. BMW and other makers have to find ways to save fuel.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Since 2005 we've owned 2 Audi's, 1 MB, and 1 Porsche (even older than 5 years) and all of them have been great. Pre-2005 I am not sure if I would have purchased a German car, but now I wouldn't think twice (obviously). That said, for some reason BMW still concerns me. Never owned one and not sure we would. We love the new 6 and I've always loved the M5, but we'd likely buy another A6 or an A7 instead of the 6-series... and I'd likely pick up an AMG over an M.

oo7spy

But hey, you're the one who can't read and think at the same time.

oonowindoo

If you don't care, then stop quoting my post, so we could avoid this type of conversation.

Started from Post #47 and 48.

Crazy Bimmer

A 335i is a real BMW but a 320i/328i is not? Since when did a BMW become a real BMW based on the power output? I thought they won their praise because they were known for their well balanced chassis.

Phew, good thing I still have the roundel on my lowly 328i.

Crazy Bimmer

Btw, BMW is still the benchmark in most segments and is the brand other manufactures aim to be like.

kurtatx

The 328i is fine. The 320i is garbage.

cjTL

iTrader: (2)

Really is a bummer to hear about these issues. It makes the idea of buying used a pretty scary proposition. Imagine these cars in 15-20 years.


I think many would disagree. Low in power? Sure. Good driving dynamics still? Indeed.

Chief F1 Fan

I've read these comments and just roll my eyes a bit. I don't drive a BMW because of a badge, if that was the case, I'd drive a MBZ; I don't give a rat's ass about "prestige" instead I love the feel, look, drivability, care from the dealer, interior, performance and individuality (650 GC, not a 3/5/7 car, they all look the same with varying degrees of interior grade). I didn't lease the car because I plan on owning it a long time, probably 7-9 years anyways and in spite of all the known (by me) warts the car had, including the battery issue, I bought it anyways because you know what? The 530 I bought had its issues too and it's been an outstanding car, so much so that I've put a bunch into it just to keep it on the road. I never would've done that with any other car I've owned.

Some of you may recall the tranny problems the CL-S had; mine had 4 transmissions. I still loved the car but Acura's styling looked too blah to me and I moved away from the product line. Just as long the manufacturer makes it right, I can deal with the little problems along the way.

People that buy these cars can afford to fix them; it's all proportionate. You pay $300 for a Mustang alternator, I pay $500 and in the end, each of us has the car we desire the most.

I'm glad I bought my 650i xDrive GC and can't wait to put 150K on it.

oonowindoo

Many assume because 320 only has 180hp then it is slow....i would not call a car that does 1/4 mile in mid 14s and 0-60 in mid 6s slow... or we can pretty much call everything in Honda/Acura's lineup slow.

cjTL

iTrader: (2)

Very valid point. It's all relative.

Crazy Bimmer

You know why they dont think highly of the 320i? Its because of the badge. Ironic.

Sarlacc

So, why did you get a 328 instead of a 320

Crazy Bimmer

I actually went looking for a 320i but was hard to find with sport package and wasnt in stock at any dealers.

Found a 328i with Msport locally. Had to take advantage of the lease deals (left over 2014s) otherwise I would have ordered a 320i with sport.

Plus you know that you can tune a 320i and it would be just as fast as a tuned 328i.

cjTL

iTrader: (2)

I really like the 320i. Something about the simplicity. Xdrive, sport pack, HID headlights, and heated seats are all I'd get and that comes out to ~$38K.

Chief F1 Fan

buying a 320 is the equivalent of buying a Ford Focus SVT, econocar with some guts; both at the low end of the marques' line up.

Majofo

I'd still by a BMW over an Acura at this point (well.. maybe still buy an MDX first)