Big 3
11-23-2008, 08:04 PM
#41
the Big 3 should have been paying attention when the first import showed up in the 60's..... and to the fact that the union is unwilling to take compromises......
you want to know why the big three really failed?
they failed to stand behind their products
1. 1994 oldsmobile with a THD200 4R ate the trans 3 times within 120K, no assistance from GM even though they knew it was problem
2. 1982 chevy celeberty started burning oil at 18K miles, would not replace engine under warranty stating it was "normal"
3. 1996 LHS has ac problems during warranty, compressor failed at 50K, no good will at all.....
contrast that with honda who is well known for providing goodwill repairs outside of warranty and then you will understand why people buy them....
you want to know why the big three really failed?
they failed to stand behind their products
1. 1994 oldsmobile with a THD200 4R ate the trans 3 times within 120K, no assistance from GM even though they knew it was problem
2. 1982 chevy celeberty started burning oil at 18K miles, would not replace engine under warranty stating it was "normal"
3. 1996 LHS has ac problems during warranty, compressor failed at 50K, no good will at all.....
contrast that with honda who is well known for providing goodwill repairs outside of warranty and then you will understand why people buy them....
11-23-2008, 09:52 PM
#42
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Let 'em go bankrupt.
Just because they go bankrupt doens't mean they instantly disappear from the face of the earth.
It means they'll be forced to re-organize, both structurally and cost-wise. Done well, they will live another day, stronger and more able to compete.
Yes, jobs will be lost and suppliers will go out of business, but US auto manufacturing will be stronger for it.
Also, consider this:
US consumers buy X number of new cars/trucks per year from Ford, Chrysler and GM. If the big 3 go bankrupt do you think those new car sales just dry up, disappear and never come back?
No, they go elsewhere. And many of the "elsewheres" will be made in America - maybe a BMW from Spartenburg, SC or an Acura or Honda from Marysville, OH or a Camry from Georgetown, KY or to a scaled-down, re-invoigorated GM/Ford/Chrysler in BFE Indiana.
A Big-3 bailout is just throwing good money after bad.
Just because they go bankrupt doens't mean they instantly disappear from the face of the earth.
It means they'll be forced to re-organize, both structurally and cost-wise. Done well, they will live another day, stronger and more able to compete.
Yes, jobs will be lost and suppliers will go out of business, but US auto manufacturing will be stronger for it.
Also, consider this:
US consumers buy X number of new cars/trucks per year from Ford, Chrysler and GM. If the big 3 go bankrupt do you think those new car sales just dry up, disappear and never come back?
No, they go elsewhere. And many of the "elsewheres" will be made in America - maybe a BMW from Spartenburg, SC or an Acura or Honda from Marysville, OH or a Camry from Georgetown, KY or to a scaled-down, re-invoigorated GM/Ford/Chrysler in BFE Indiana.
A Big-3 bailout is just throwing good money after bad.
Last edited by Bearcat94; 11-23-2008 at 09:54 PM.
11-23-2008, 11:13 PM
#43
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I work for Honda. I'm a second generation autoworker. so i've been around automotive work almost all my life.
issues with the big three:
-an average line worker at the big 3 grosses over 100 k. the average janitor at Chrysler makes 75 k a year. that's murdering their profits.
our wages are "good" but not "that good" if that makes sense
-2nd issue :strike against the UAW/ big 3 is healthcare for retirees my dad retired from Honda. he doesn't get free healthcare for life like the retirees from the big 3. each car/truck from GM they gotta add approximately 3500-4000 ADDITIONAL ONTO to pay for retirees healthcare. yes that's a nice benefit but when the company going bust it's not a practical to ask for it.
-3rd issue: even though they won't admit to it the big 3 are "truck companies"
yes they make cars like the Mustang, Impala, Vette, and G8. BUT most people don't know this. on an average Chrysler Sebring after everyone paid including labor, materials. they(Chrysler) only clear like 300 dollars PER CAR.
sounds like i a lot but compared to Ford Expeditions they clear after everyone paid 15 GRAND PER TRUCK. hell of a difference. when gas went up SUV sales went down and car sales went up. even now i don't see a end in sight for them.
- 4th issue: they built(for the most part) "okay cars" other than a select few cars. the majority of their cars have been "okay." to retain customers and for them to tell other people(much like the BMW 3 series) they must aim for nothing but excellence. and i think they've aimed for "okay" and not just on quality, but also on styling, engines, transmissions, pretty much everything.
that was acceptable 40 years ago when the japanese and european car makers weren't "really accepted" in America. now seeing an Accord or Camry is common. so America has accepted "the competition"
now the route(if i was the goverment) i'd suggest:
option #1. let the 3 of the them(GM,Ford and Chysler) merge to form one company. so they could "pool their money" and try to "claw " their way out of this train wreck. however i have concerns about goverment contracts with like cop cars, only one brand will be able to bid on it.
option #2. let 1 (or more ) company or( companies) go bust. and let more or less "shit hit the fan." by doing this this teaches the 1 or more companies that if you mess up, you gotta pay for your actions.
option #3. allow one of the import companies(which I DON'T SEE THIS ONE HAPPENING) to buy one or more of the big 3. then you got union relation problems cause the old company had a union and new company doesn't.
If the goverment gives the car companies the 25 billion like requested. it's like giving a crack addict money "to get high."
they'll come back next time for another time to get the next "fix"
issues with the big three:
-an average line worker at the big 3 grosses over 100 k. the average janitor at Chrysler makes 75 k a year. that's murdering their profits.
our wages are "good" but not "that good" if that makes sense
-2nd issue :strike against the UAW/ big 3 is healthcare for retirees my dad retired from Honda. he doesn't get free healthcare for life like the retirees from the big 3. each car/truck from GM they gotta add approximately 3500-4000 ADDITIONAL ONTO to pay for retirees healthcare. yes that's a nice benefit but when the company going bust it's not a practical to ask for it.
-3rd issue: even though they won't admit to it the big 3 are "truck companies"
yes they make cars like the Mustang, Impala, Vette, and G8. BUT most people don't know this. on an average Chrysler Sebring after everyone paid including labor, materials. they(Chrysler) only clear like 300 dollars PER CAR.
sounds like i a lot but compared to Ford Expeditions they clear after everyone paid 15 GRAND PER TRUCK. hell of a difference. when gas went up SUV sales went down and car sales went up. even now i don't see a end in sight for them.
- 4th issue: they built(for the most part) "okay cars" other than a select few cars. the majority of their cars have been "okay." to retain customers and for them to tell other people(much like the BMW 3 series) they must aim for nothing but excellence. and i think they've aimed for "okay" and not just on quality, but also on styling, engines, transmissions, pretty much everything.
that was acceptable 40 years ago when the japanese and european car makers weren't "really accepted" in America. now seeing an Accord or Camry is common. so America has accepted "the competition"
now the route(if i was the goverment) i'd suggest:
option #1. let the 3 of the them(GM,Ford and Chysler) merge to form one company. so they could "pool their money" and try to "claw " their way out of this train wreck. however i have concerns about goverment contracts with like cop cars, only one brand will be able to bid on it.
option #2. let 1 (or more ) company or( companies) go bust. and let more or less "shit hit the fan." by doing this this teaches the 1 or more companies that if you mess up, you gotta pay for your actions.
option #3. allow one of the import companies(which I DON'T SEE THIS ONE HAPPENING) to buy one or more of the big 3. then you got union relation problems cause the old company had a union and new company doesn't.
If the goverment gives the car companies the 25 billion like requested. it's like giving a crack addict money "to get high."
they'll come back next time for another time to get the next "fix"
11-24-2008, 12:41 AM
#44
Senior Moderator
I work for Honda. I'm a second generation autoworker. so i've been around automotive work almost all my life.
issues with the big three:
-an average line worker at the big 3 grosses over 100 k. the average janitor at Chrysler makes 75 k a year. that's murdering their profits.
issues with the big three:
-an average line worker at the big 3 grosses over 100 k. the average janitor at Chrysler makes 75 k a year. that's murdering their profits.
There are plenty of people in this country who would desperately love to see all unions go away. Over the course of the congressional hearings on an automaker bailout this week many of those people have continually brought up the un-cited "fact" that UAW workers get $70/hour in wages and benefits as opposed to about $40 or so for non-unionized workers at the foreign owned transplants. While the UAW and the Detroit automakers have made more than their share of mistakes and deserve a good chunk of the blame for what is happening, there is a major problem with this particular argument. IT'S NOT TRUE!
UAW members do not take home $70/hour. That is the automaker's cost per active employee. What's the difference? The latter figure is total spent by automakers on wages and benefits divided by the number of active employees. The cost of benefits includes the pensions and health care costs for the hundreds of thousands of living retirees in addition to active workers. Those punching the clock every day, don't get a dime of that. As of last year, UAW workers made an average of $28/hour in wages + $10/hour in benefits. The rest went to retirees, a cost that is borne by the automakers. The reality is that unionized and non-unionized autoworkers actually make very similar wages and benefits. Continue reading after the jump.
[Source: The New Republic, via DailyKos]
You might be wondering why the UAW has had such a hard time organizing the US factories of Honda, Toyota, Nissan and others. A major part of it is because the workers there don't see a need to join. They already make as much as their unionized counterparts. The fact is that in industries like this, companies will often tend to match the compensation offered to union workers just to keep the union out. When I was growing up in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, there were two big steel companies in town, Stelco and Dofasco.
Stelco was unionized and Dofasco was not. Both companies paid workers essentially the same. My father worked at Stelco and went on strike three times over his 30 years there. Every three years when there was a new contract at Stelco, Dofasco automatically matched it for their employees. If the United Steel Workers at Stelco didn't pay the price to get those raises do you think Dofasco workers would have got them? Not a chance. It's exactly the same with the auto makers.
Since I can't find the precise quote at the moment, I'll paraphrase the late Studs Terkel, who asked someone who was anti-union, "Do you like going home from work at 5 o'clock? Do you like having health care benefits? Do you like having paid time off? You may not be in a union, but if you have any of that, you can thank union workers for it." Before unions fought for reasonable work weeks, health care, and workplace safety in the first half of the twentieth century, few Americans had any of that. Don't kid yourself that big corporations would give any of that from the goodness their hearts.
Yes unions have gone too far at times, but as we have clearly seen with the financial collapse in the last few months, non-union financial "geniuses" are actually far more to blame for the current predicament than those who punch a clock every day. The real reason so many are pushing for chapter 11 is not to save the automakers, because that will almost assuredly not happen. They want to break the union contracts. The problem is doing that will ultimately cost this country a lot more than $70/hour.
It's time to stop demonizing and start addressing the real root causes of this problem. That is the fundamentally flawed mechanism we have for paying for health care in this country and the ability for people to finance the purchase of vehicles. Until we put the screws to the financial "geniuses" things will only get worse.
UAW members do not take home $70/hour. That is the automaker's cost per active employee. What's the difference? The latter figure is total spent by automakers on wages and benefits divided by the number of active employees. The cost of benefits includes the pensions and health care costs for the hundreds of thousands of living retirees in addition to active workers. Those punching the clock every day, don't get a dime of that. As of last year, UAW workers made an average of $28/hour in wages + $10/hour in benefits. The rest went to retirees, a cost that is borne by the automakers. The reality is that unionized and non-unionized autoworkers actually make very similar wages and benefits. Continue reading after the jump.
[Source: The New Republic, via DailyKos]
You might be wondering why the UAW has had such a hard time organizing the US factories of Honda, Toyota, Nissan and others. A major part of it is because the workers there don't see a need to join. They already make as much as their unionized counterparts. The fact is that in industries like this, companies will often tend to match the compensation offered to union workers just to keep the union out. When I was growing up in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, there were two big steel companies in town, Stelco and Dofasco.
Stelco was unionized and Dofasco was not. Both companies paid workers essentially the same. My father worked at Stelco and went on strike three times over his 30 years there. Every three years when there was a new contract at Stelco, Dofasco automatically matched it for their employees. If the United Steel Workers at Stelco didn't pay the price to get those raises do you think Dofasco workers would have got them? Not a chance. It's exactly the same with the auto makers.
Since I can't find the precise quote at the moment, I'll paraphrase the late Studs Terkel, who asked someone who was anti-union, "Do you like going home from work at 5 o'clock? Do you like having health care benefits? Do you like having paid time off? You may not be in a union, but if you have any of that, you can thank union workers for it." Before unions fought for reasonable work weeks, health care, and workplace safety in the first half of the twentieth century, few Americans had any of that. Don't kid yourself that big corporations would give any of that from the goodness their hearts.
Yes unions have gone too far at times, but as we have clearly seen with the financial collapse in the last few months, non-union financial "geniuses" are actually far more to blame for the current predicament than those who punch a clock every day. The real reason so many are pushing for chapter 11 is not to save the automakers, because that will almost assuredly not happen. They want to break the union contracts. The problem is doing that will ultimately cost this country a lot more than $70/hour.
It's time to stop demonizing and start addressing the real root causes of this problem. That is the fundamentally flawed mechanism we have for paying for health care in this country and the ability for people to finance the purchase of vehicles. Until we put the screws to the financial "geniuses" things will only get worse.
11-24-2008, 01:47 AM
#45
that's just some drivel by a pro union guy.......if the Big 3 actually had fully funded pension plans, they would not have this burden, again, thanks to the union, they do not have fully funded pension plans.........
11-24-2008, 02:13 AM
#46
Punk Rocker
At least if they went into bankruptcy they'd be able to restructure all of the current union contracts that are crippling them. The bailout is essentially a democrat bid to keep the unions happy and will do nothing in the long run to help Ford, GM, and Chrysler.....
11-24-2008, 11:23 AM
#47
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I said it in the other thread...I'll say it here...
This is a UAW bailout... not a GM/Ford/Chrysler bailout. Let the UAW loan the corporations money. Take a loan off the pension fund. Let them finance their own failure.
This is a UAW bailout... not a GM/Ford/Chrysler bailout. Let the UAW loan the corporations money. Take a loan off the pension fund. Let them finance their own failure.
11-24-2008, 11:41 AM
#48
Not just a smell
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11-24-2008, 01:26 PM
#52
socialism= the suck
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yes i know companies such as Delphi, Dana,etc,etc will go under. HOWEVER as we(Honda) grows our suppliers grow. the big 3 accounts for about 50-60% of american car sales. even if Honda picked up 20% of that i'd be "high fiveing" people.
11-24-2008, 01:32 PM
#53
socialism= the suck
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11-24-2008, 01:51 PM
#54
The Third Ball
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I work for Honda. I'm a second generation autoworker. so i've been around automotive work almost all my life.
issues with the big three:
-an average line worker at the big 3 grosses over 100 k. the average janitor at Chrysler makes 75 k a year. that's murdering their profits.
our wages are "good" but not "that good" if that makes sense
-2nd issue :strike against the UAW/ big 3 is healthcare for retirees my dad retired from Honda. he doesn't get free healthcare for life like the retirees from the big 3. each car/truck from GM they gotta add approximately 3500-4000 ADDITIONAL ONTO to pay for retirees healthcare. yes that's a nice benefit but when the company going bust it's not a practical to ask for it.
-3rd issue: even though they won't admit to it the big 3 are "truck companies"
yes they make cars like the Mustang, Impala, Vette, and G8. BUT most people don't know this. on an average Chrysler Sebring after everyone paid including labor, materials. they(Chrysler) only clear like 300 dollars PER CAR.
sounds like i a lot but compared to Ford Expeditions they clear after everyone paid 15 GRAND PER TRUCK. hell of a difference. when gas went up SUV sales went down and car sales went up. even now i don't see a end in sight for them.
- 4th issue: they built(for the most part) "okay cars" other than a select few cars. the majority of their cars have been "okay." to retain customers and for them to tell other people(much like the BMW 3 series) they must aim for nothing but excellence. and i think they've aimed for "okay" and not just on quality, but also on styling, engines, transmissions, pretty much everything.
that was acceptable 40 years ago when the japanese and european car makers weren't "really accepted" in America. now seeing an Accord or Camry is common. so America has accepted "the competition"
now the route(if i was the goverment) i'd suggest:
option #1. let the 3 of the them(GM,Ford and Chysler) merge to form one company. so they could "pool their money" and try to "claw " their way out of this train wreck. however i have concerns about goverment contracts with like cop cars, only one brand will be able to bid on it.
option #2. let 1 (or more ) company or( companies) go bust. and let more or less "shit hit the fan." by doing this this teaches the 1 or more companies that if you mess up, you gotta pay for your actions.
option #3. allow one of the import companies(which I DON'T SEE THIS ONE HAPPENING) to buy one or more of the big 3. then you got union relation problems cause the old company had a union and new company doesn't.
If the goverment gives the car companies the 25 billion like requested. it's like giving a crack addict money "to get high."
they'll come back next time for another time to get the next "fix"
issues with the big three:
-an average line worker at the big 3 grosses over 100 k. the average janitor at Chrysler makes 75 k a year. that's murdering their profits.
our wages are "good" but not "that good" if that makes sense
-2nd issue :strike against the UAW/ big 3 is healthcare for retirees my dad retired from Honda. he doesn't get free healthcare for life like the retirees from the big 3. each car/truck from GM they gotta add approximately 3500-4000 ADDITIONAL ONTO to pay for retirees healthcare. yes that's a nice benefit but when the company going bust it's not a practical to ask for it.
-3rd issue: even though they won't admit to it the big 3 are "truck companies"
yes they make cars like the Mustang, Impala, Vette, and G8. BUT most people don't know this. on an average Chrysler Sebring after everyone paid including labor, materials. they(Chrysler) only clear like 300 dollars PER CAR.
sounds like i a lot but compared to Ford Expeditions they clear after everyone paid 15 GRAND PER TRUCK. hell of a difference. when gas went up SUV sales went down and car sales went up. even now i don't see a end in sight for them.
- 4th issue: they built(for the most part) "okay cars" other than a select few cars. the majority of their cars have been "okay." to retain customers and for them to tell other people(much like the BMW 3 series) they must aim for nothing but excellence. and i think they've aimed for "okay" and not just on quality, but also on styling, engines, transmissions, pretty much everything.
that was acceptable 40 years ago when the japanese and european car makers weren't "really accepted" in America. now seeing an Accord or Camry is common. so America has accepted "the competition"
now the route(if i was the goverment) i'd suggest:
option #1. let the 3 of the them(GM,Ford and Chysler) merge to form one company. so they could "pool their money" and try to "claw " their way out of this train wreck. however i have concerns about goverment contracts with like cop cars, only one brand will be able to bid on it.
option #2. let 1 (or more ) company or( companies) go bust. and let more or less "shit hit the fan." by doing this this teaches the 1 or more companies that if you mess up, you gotta pay for your actions.
option #3. allow one of the import companies(which I DON'T SEE THIS ONE HAPPENING) to buy one or more of the big 3. then you got union relation problems cause the old company had a union and new company doesn't.
If the goverment gives the car companies the 25 billion like requested. it's like giving a crack addict money "to get high."
they'll come back next time for another time to get the next "fix"
how do you figure yes lets say worse case situation Dodge, Ford , and GM all go bust(meaning they are "no longer") wouldn't that mean car makers like Toyota,BMW,Honda, Kia,Benz and Nissan would grow. people aren't gonna stop driving due to the big 3 going under. YES Michigan is in a recession if not depression. but i think this an chance for the import car companies to widen their companies plus growth.
yes i know companies such as Delphi, Dana,etc,etc will go under. HOWEVER as we(Honda) grows our suppliers grow. the big 3 accounts for about 50-60% of american car sales. even if Honda picked up 20% of that i'd be "high fiveing" people.
yes i know companies such as Delphi, Dana,etc,etc will go under. HOWEVER as we(Honda) grows our suppliers grow. the big 3 accounts for about 50-60% of american car sales. even if Honda picked up 20% of that i'd be "high fiveing" people.
the big 3 only has to pay pension for about another year (Jan 1,2010) then the UAW has to start paying Pension. at the last "round" of "talks" they(UAW and big 3) agreed for the UAW to take that liability over. but with the UAW pissing off members(with job cuts, no job security,not as strong as they used to be) I don't see the UAW being around in 20 years. yeah you'll have some old timers promoteing UAW shit. and i give junk mail saying how i "should lead a fight to make Honda UAW." that shit goes in the trash can once i get it. but you wanna talk about the the retirees be PISSSSSSSSSED when the UAW goes broke and they were liable for their pension
11-24-2008, 02:06 PM
#55
socialism= the suck
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11-24-2008, 02:10 PM
#56
The Third Ball
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What are you adding that is productive seeing as you DONT work for Honda. You DONT have a clue of what youre talking about. And you ALWAYS repeat information you got from someone else, which you try and pass off as your own...even though its out of context 99% of the time.
Sure I'll die, you first and I'll follow...promise...
11-24-2008, 02:15 PM
#57
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How do I go back to a place I'm already at?
What are you adding that is productive seeing as you DONT work for Honda. You DONT have a clue of what youre talking about. And you ALWAYS repeat information you got from someone else, which you try and pass off as your own...even though its out of context 99% of the time.
Sure I'll die, you first and I'll follow...promise...
What are you adding that is productive seeing as you DONT work for Honda. You DONT have a clue of what youre talking about. And you ALWAYS repeat information you got from someone else, which you try and pass off as your own...even though its out of context 99% of the time.
Sure I'll die, you first and I'll follow...promise...
yeah you're real bad ass a e-thug.
11-24-2008, 02:21 PM
#58
The Third Ball
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you don't know everything this is what i laugh about you. you think you know everything about me. yet you know jack squat. so when you do know you can talk shit until then please shut the fuck up. all you do is come on this board and start shit.
yeah you're real bad ass a e-thug.
yeah you're real bad ass a e-thug.
What else is there to know about you?
Your mentally deficient.
You lie or are extremely delusional.
You have the intelligence of a strained carrot.
You drool.
You wear adult diapers (im guessign size XXXL) and most likely sleep with rubber sheets.
I think I know more than I ever want to about you.
11-24-2008, 07:27 PM
#59
Senior Moderator
Jeez. sarlacc and straight, both of you need to take it to PM. NOW. No more of this bullshit here.
11-24-2008, 08:11 PM
#60
Burning Brakes
you don't know everything this is what i laugh about you. you think you know everything about me. yet you know jack squat. so when you do know you can talk shit until then please shut the fuck up. all you do is come on this board and start shit.
yeah you're real bad ass a e-thug.
yeah you're real bad ass a e-thug.
11-24-2008, 08:43 PM
#61
has Gloryhole Girls in
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Yep, I'm a HUGE e-thug with all the people I go around and threaten to beat up.
What else is there to know about you?
Your mentally deficient.
You lie or are extremely delusional.
You have the intelligence of a strained carrot.
You drool.
You wear adult diapers (im guessign size XXXL) and most likely sleep with rubber sheets.
I think I know more than I ever want to about you.
What else is there to know about you?
Your mentally deficient.
You lie or are extremely delusional.
You have the intelligence of a strained carrot.
You drool.
You wear adult diapers (im guessign size XXXL) and most likely sleep with rubber sheets.
I think I know more than I ever want to about you.
I love the 3 hrs to watch 60 minutes...priceless
11-24-2008, 09:09 PM
#62
Safety Car
in regards to the debate of how to restructure the big 3, consider me on par with Romney's contention! guy is a economical genius. what a shame that he didnt get the primary...or at least replace Palin during the race.
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