Big 3
11-20-2008, 04:56 PM
#1
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Big 3
DOES ANYONE FEEL BAD AT ALL FOR THE BIG 3, AS THEY ARE FALLING APART, AND I JUST DON'T MEAN THEIR CARS.
THEY ALL COULD GO BUST.
I REALIZE OUR T.L.'s, AND I HAVE AN 08,n.b.p, ARE BUILT IN OHIO, BUT WITH JAPAN AS HONDA'S HOME BASE, I GET GRIEF FOR NOT BUYING DOMESTIC.
IN THE AREA I LIVE, IT'S 95 PERCENT BIG 3, AND THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS I LOVE THE ACURA. IT REALLY STANDS OUT FROM THE CROWD AND TURNS HEADS.
IT'S NOT JUST ANOTHER CHRYLSER, PONTIAC OR FORD.
I SIMPLY DID MY HOMEWORK, AND BOUGHT WHAT I THINK WAS THE BEST CAR I COULD AFFORD FOR THE MONEY.
$27,500 out the door, for an 08T.L. DEALER'S LOANER WITH 7,000 miles.
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE BIG 3, THEIR PROBLEMS AND PRODUCTS.
THEY ALL COULD GO BUST.
I REALIZE OUR T.L.'s, AND I HAVE AN 08,n.b.p, ARE BUILT IN OHIO, BUT WITH JAPAN AS HONDA'S HOME BASE, I GET GRIEF FOR NOT BUYING DOMESTIC.
IN THE AREA I LIVE, IT'S 95 PERCENT BIG 3, AND THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS I LOVE THE ACURA. IT REALLY STANDS OUT FROM THE CROWD AND TURNS HEADS.
IT'S NOT JUST ANOTHER CHRYLSER, PONTIAC OR FORD.
I SIMPLY DID MY HOMEWORK, AND BOUGHT WHAT I THINK WAS THE BEST CAR I COULD AFFORD FOR THE MONEY.
$27,500 out the door, for an 08T.L. DEALER'S LOANER WITH 7,000 miles.
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE BIG 3, THEIR PROBLEMS AND PRODUCTS.
11-20-2008, 05:04 PM
#2
Instructor
To answer your question, who cares what they think. Your Acura was assembled in America, so that should be good enough. Ask them where most of their parts were made? My guess it not in America.
11-20-2008, 06:16 PM
#7
Beller - welcome to azine and congrats on the TL, excellect choice, please post some pics. 
As you can tell you will get flamed here quickly for using all caps but since you are new here we will let this one slide...right everyone??
As you can tell you will get flamed here quickly for using all caps but since you are new here we will let this one slide...right everyone??
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11-20-2008, 06:24 PM
#8
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11-20-2008, 06:44 PM
#11
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11-20-2008, 06:49 PM
#12
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Now you see what I go through on a daily...
11-20-2008, 06:51 PM
#13
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11-20-2008, 09:34 PM
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11-21-2008, 01:52 AM
#18
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11-21-2008, 04:17 AM
#19
Who cares where or by who it was built, what matters is the end result. Who cares about people giving you shit for buying a certain thing, anyone who buys domestic because they want to help out the economy is a pawn, just another zombie brainwashed by marketing.
11-21-2008, 04:44 AM
#20
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
The issue with the big three is three fold (go figure):
1. They have been building crappy cars for the past 40 years. There are some exceptions (Caddy CTS, Buick Grand National, Chevy Corvette, Dodge Viper, etc...) but those are few and far between. They built cars that people do not want to buy, then dump them in hordes on rental fleets. Plus, they'll sell them for practically nothing by giving rebates because that's better than sitting on a lot.
2. All three are guilty of padding their coffers with truck sales. With cheap fuel, people went out and bought Stupid Useless Vehicles (I hate SUV's if bought for the wrong purpose, which is 95 % of their sales, ie. soccer mom's going to the grocery store/soccer practice). They were smiling all the way to the bank until gas was $4.00 plus a gallon. They then learned that they will die by living on car sales alone.
3. The unions and the pensions / benefits are killing them internally. They let the union run roughshod over them until they were forced to pay a huge wage, and they can't afford to pay their workers. Even more so as people don't buy trucks like they used to.
So, bail them out? No. How about they either get a final loan from Uncle Sam, or they go chapter 11 and toss the unions out. The were needed (unions) 50 years ago, not now.
1. They have been building crappy cars for the past 40 years. There are some exceptions (Caddy CTS, Buick Grand National, Chevy Corvette, Dodge Viper, etc...) but those are few and far between. They built cars that people do not want to buy, then dump them in hordes on rental fleets. Plus, they'll sell them for practically nothing by giving rebates because that's better than sitting on a lot.
2. All three are guilty of padding their coffers with truck sales. With cheap fuel, people went out and bought Stupid Useless Vehicles (I hate SUV's if bought for the wrong purpose, which is 95 % of their sales, ie. soccer mom's going to the grocery store/soccer practice). They were smiling all the way to the bank until gas was $4.00 plus a gallon. They then learned that they will die by living on car sales alone.
3. The unions and the pensions / benefits are killing them internally. They let the union run roughshod over them until they were forced to pay a huge wage, and they can't afford to pay their workers. Even more so as people don't buy trucks like they used to.
So, bail them out? No. How about they either get a final loan from Uncle Sam, or they go chapter 11 and toss the unions out. The were needed (unions) 50 years ago, not now.
11-21-2008, 09:25 AM
#21
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People who say the Big 3 collapsing will have no impact or don't care aren't paying attention. They built crappy cars in the past but have come around a corner. The thing that they can't seem to get around is perception, as can be seen with some of the posts above.
GM and Ford (moreso than Chrysler) collapsing is not good for any of us.
GM and Ford (moreso than Chrysler) collapsing is not good for any of us.
11-21-2008, 09:33 AM
#22
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It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.
A $25 billion loan to 3 huge companies isn't going to do squat, especially when GM requires what, around $15 billion just to get by for day to day operations. Chrysler has been on life support for too long now and just needs to be put out of its misery. Even if they did get the money, there is no guarantee that this will not happen again, especially since the union will still have their stranglehold and God knows what other crap products they have down the pipeline. It also doesn't seem as if the CEOs get it....they all flew separately to DC on private jets. They don't know how to manage money, IMO.
A $25 billion loan to 3 huge companies isn't going to do squat, especially when GM requires what, around $15 billion just to get by for day to day operations. Chrysler has been on life support for too long now and just needs to be put out of its misery. Even if they did get the money, there is no guarantee that this will not happen again, especially since the union will still have their stranglehold and God knows what other crap products they have down the pipeline. It also doesn't seem as if the CEOs get it....they all flew separately to DC on private jets. They don't know how to manage money, IMO.
11-21-2008, 01:37 PM
#24
Instructor
As a Canadian I find it ironic that we Canadians call the big 3 "domestic" when they are all American. Granted that they have factories in Canada, you don't call Toyota or Honda "domestic" only because they have plants in some southern states.
But I do feel sorry to see the big 3 going under. I always had a thing for GMC Yukon. It is one of those cars that you like but never buy.
But I do feel sorry to see the big 3 going under. I always had a thing for GMC Yukon. It is one of those cars that you like but never buy.
11-21-2008, 01:43 PM
#25
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Let them fail. We wouldn't be capitalistic if we didn't.
Also, why only bail out the big 3? why not honda, or nissan. They build cars in the U.S. and they are hurting as well. To me, it sounds like ground roots racism only bailing out "american" auto manufacturers.
let them friggin' fail. They are failing because people aren't buying their cars. that was the case long before the economy took a dump. bailing them out isn't going to help them sell cars to people that don't want their cars in the first place.
Do I feel bad people will lose jobs, yes. But companies live and die all the time. That's the point of capitalism. The strong succeed, and the weak, fail.
Also, why only bail out the big 3? why not honda, or nissan. They build cars in the U.S. and they are hurting as well. To me, it sounds like ground roots racism only bailing out "american" auto manufacturers.
let them friggin' fail. They are failing because people aren't buying their cars. that was the case long before the economy took a dump. bailing them out isn't going to help them sell cars to people that don't want their cars in the first place.
Do I feel bad people will lose jobs, yes. But companies live and die all the time. That's the point of capitalism. The strong succeed, and the weak, fail.
11-21-2008, 01:58 PM
#26
The sizzle in the Steak
More clownz in cartalk...
11-22-2008, 07:33 AM
#28
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More towards Mr. Steve's post, the Big 3 do not exist in a vacuum. Their failure is far more reaching than alluded to in many of the responses thus far. But, that discussion is more Ramblings oriented than Car Talk.
The topic as posted by the op is more about product comparison of * vs its foreign rivals. That said, there are more domestic models that I would consider now than ever before. IMHO, GM (in particular) has taken valiant strides at producing models that attract the typical import buyer.
The topic as posted by the op is more about product comparison of * vs its foreign rivals. That said, there are more domestic models that I would consider now than ever before. IMHO, GM (in particular) has taken valiant strides at producing models that attract the typical import buyer.
11-22-2008, 08:00 AM
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More towards Mr. Steve's post, the Big 3 do not exist in a vacuum. Their failure is far more reaching than alluded to in many of the responses thus far. But, that discussion is more Ramblings oriented than Car Talk.
The topic as posted by the op is more about product comparison of * vs its foreign rivals. That said, there are more domestic models that I would consider now than ever before. IMHO, GM (in particular) has taken valiant strides at producing models that attract the typical import buyer.
The topic as posted by the op is more about product comparison of * vs its foreign rivals. That said, there are more domestic models that I would consider now than ever before. IMHO, GM (in particular) has taken valiant strides at producing models that attract the typical import buyer.
and after attending yesterdays autoshow, I found some great offering from ford and Chrysler as well.
11-22-2008, 01:21 PM
#31
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^ how was the auto show, Sarlacc?
11-22-2008, 04:22 PM
#33
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11-22-2008, 04:34 PM
#34
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This sums it up for me.
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/11/12/t...to-reconsider/
Many analysts and commentators have seemingly been cheering for the imminent demise of the Detroit-based automakers. Something that needs to be realized amidst all this talk of low-interest loans and bailout money is how interconnected the auto industry is and how it affects our economy as a whole. Just like the global economy where the health of one country impacts all others, the same is true of the auto industry. It's been estimated that if General Motors fails, it will quickly cost the United States anywhere from 2.5-3 million jobs. Beyond the people directly employed by the automakers are direct suppliers and their sub-suppliers, many of which have been on the brink for years already. In addition, there are the tens of thousands of small and large businesses in Michigan communities and elsewhere whose existence depends on patronage from the people working in auto factories.
Even foreign automakers will feel the pain of Detroit's demise in a big way. Toyota, Nissan and Honda have all been hammered by the credit crunch in the last couple of months and their sales will likely drop further if people lose their jobs due to the failure of one or more of the Detroit automakers. The suppliers that will surely fail also supply Japanese-, German- and South Korean-owned factories in the U.S., so their collapse will have a huge impact on companies not based in Detroit.
Yes, the Detroit 3 have made a lot of stupid product decisions over the years and wasted a lot of money, but allowing the free market to pull them under will create a ripple effect that reaches more than just the shores of the Detroit River.
Even foreign automakers will feel the pain of Detroit's demise in a big way. Toyota, Nissan and Honda have all been hammered by the credit crunch in the last couple of months and their sales will likely drop further if people lose their jobs due to the failure of one or more of the Detroit automakers. The suppliers that will surely fail also supply Japanese-, German- and South Korean-owned factories in the U.S., so their collapse will have a huge impact on companies not based in Detroit.
Yes, the Detroit 3 have made a lot of stupid product decisions over the years and wasted a lot of money, but allowing the free market to pull them under will create a ripple effect that reaches more than just the shores of the Detroit River.
11-22-2008, 04:48 PM
#35
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overpaid, unions suck, they made a poor choice in vehicles and they are now paying for it.
I DO NOT want to see them helped out. They will be errr...... should be more efficient after chap 11.
All they are going to do is blow the money they get.
their products are getting better but still will never buy one.
I DO NOT want to see them helped out. They will be errr...... should be more efficient after chap 11.
All they are going to do is blow the money they get.
their products are getting better but still will never buy one.
11-22-2008, 10:35 PM
#36
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
And lest we forget, the three CEO's flew in on their private jets. Separate jets at that. They can talk about it's needed for security, blah, blah, blah; but just to have some symbolism that they get it, they could have rode in one jet.
Simply put, only now are they (the big three) putting cars out that some of the public may buy. I mean, Saturn is doing the right thing with the Astra (a true Opel product with their name on it). They should do the same with the Insignia (much better looking than the Aura, and they have a cool looking wagon as well). You can even get this with a 2.8L Twin Turbo, producing about 260ps (256 HP). Look at these sedan pics for an idea:
Exterior
Interior
GM could pull this off real easily. Instead, they go to the corporate parts bin in the US and put BS interiors and bad handling suspensions on to save money. I would buy this vehicle......Not a Chevy.
Simply put, only now are they (the big three) putting cars out that some of the public may buy. I mean, Saturn is doing the right thing with the Astra (a true Opel product with their name on it). They should do the same with the Insignia (much better looking than the Aura, and they have a cool looking wagon as well). You can even get this with a 2.8L Twin Turbo, producing about 260ps (256 HP). Look at these sedan pics for an idea:
Exterior
Interior
GM could pull this off real easily. Instead, they go to the corporate parts bin in the US and put BS interiors and bad handling suspensions on to save money. I would buy this vehicle......Not a Chevy.
Last edited by mrmako; 11-22-2008 at 10:37 PM.
11-23-2008, 04:18 PM
#39
As a sort-of GM guy myself (I really have no loyalty to them, I just REALLY like their new cars) I don't want them to fail because I'm already well aware of the repercussions but there shouldn't be a bailout in the way they're asking. It should come with strings attached... make sure it really is a loan, in that they NEED to pay back the government, not like Chrysler back in the 80's. Also dissolve those useless unions, shuffle senior management, and other things to reduce costs.
That Opel Insignia is great inside and out and under the hood, and so is the Buick Invicta. Yet GM is keeping those models overseas.... idiots.
That Opel Insignia is great inside and out and under the hood, and so is the Buick Invicta. Yet GM is keeping those models overseas.... idiots.
11-23-2008, 06:54 PM
#40
Senior Moderator
It's really too bad I'm just now paying attention to GM.
I'm honestly torn.
Even though I'm a Democrat, I'm a capitalist at heart. I hated the idea of the original bank bailout, which has gone down about like what I imagined--an opaque, uncertain mess with Paulson making some questionable shots.
Now the Big 3 are begging for money. For years they fscked up as well-documented elsewhere. I'd love to tell them to go rot, and let them go into bankruptcy. I'm a believer in the Invisible Hand with reasonable regulation. However, as stated above, that would be a financial disaster for this country as a whole.
What if we do loan them a little money? It did work out the last time--Chrysler got a government loan and paid us, the taxpayers, back in full, and ahead of time.
I'm honestly torn.
Even though I'm a Democrat, I'm a capitalist at heart. I hated the idea of the original bank bailout, which has gone down about like what I imagined--an opaque, uncertain mess with Paulson making some questionable shots.
Now the Big 3 are begging for money. For years they fscked up as well-documented elsewhere. I'd love to tell them to go rot, and let them go into bankruptcy. I'm a believer in the Invisible Hand with reasonable regulation. However, as stated above, that would be a financial disaster for this country as a whole.
What if we do loan them a little money? It did work out the last time--Chrysler got a government loan and paid us, the taxpayers, back in full, and ahead of time.