15% Ethanol in pre-2007 Engines: What will Happen?

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Old Oct 13, 2010 | 09:26 PM
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15% Ethanol in pre-2007 Engines: What will Happen?

Well the EPA is going to lock-up my engine and force me into buying a newer model. The article below outlines the move to 15% ethanol in gas and that it should be used in cars 2007 and newer.

Could an additive be used at each fill-up to counteract the 15%?


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/gree...ntroversy.html

EPA's ethanol decision sparks controversy
October 13, 2010 | 4:57 pm


On the face of it, having a federal agency get behind renewable fuel seems like it should elicit cheers from environmentalists, and from pretty much anyone who is leery of our dependence on foreign oil.

Not quite.

Here's what happened: The EPA issued a partial waiver Wednesday allowing the amount of ethanol in automotive fuel to rise to 15%, from 10%, but for use only in cars no older than the 2007 model year. That was happy news for corn states and the ethanol industry.

The move comes after Congress in 2007 passed an ethanol mandate that would ramp up its use in the nation's fuel supply to 36 billion gallons in 2022.

Agricultural Secretary Tom Vilsack was enthusisastic Wednesday, as might be expected:

Today's announcement from EPA is an important step toward making America more energy independent and creating much-needed jobs in rural America. The announcement will help get existing ethanol capacity into the market.

Increasing the use of ethanol in automobiles and light trucks not only provides biomass and biofuel producers with additional revenue enhancing opportunities, it will help us reach the Obama administration's goal of increasing renewable fuels usage in the U.S. marketplace to 36 billion gallons by 2022.

But there are many out there who don't see much "green" in ethanol that comes from corn. They note that burning E-15, as the new mix is called, can increase emission of some pollutants. And it can convert land better used for carbon absorption into industrialized agriculture, which consumes fossil fuels.

Among the first to blast EPA was a coalition of agricultural interests, including the American Meat Institute; the Grocery Manufacturers Assn.; the National Council of Chain Restaurants; the National Chicken Council; the American Frozen Food Institute; the American Bakers Assn.; the National Meat Assn. and the National Turkey Federation:
E15 – which would be a 50 percent increase from the currently permitted level of 10 percent ethanol in gasoline – will result in dramatic increases in the portion of the U.S. corn crop used to make fuel rather than food and, when fully implemented, could result in more than 40 percent of the nation’s corn crop being diverted to ethanol production. The corn ethanol industry has received over $30 billion in federal subsidies over the last three decades.

Kate McMahon, biofuels campaign coordinator at Friends of the Earth, used a broader argument:

“The only thing ‘green’ about ethanol is the color of the cash subsidies handed to it by Congress... Increased blends of ethanol in gasoline could increase emissions of toxic air pollutants, in particular nitrogen dioxide, when burned in engines not built to withstand more ethanol. This danger applies to the vast majority of engines currently in service, from cars to boats to lawnmowers.

Ethanol results in more greenhouse gas emissions than gasoline, according to the EPA’s own scientific analysis, which was included in the Renewable Fuels Standard (RFS2) Regulatory Impact Analysis released in February 2010...The production of ethanol also has detrimental effects on human and environmental health.

The production of biofuels feed stocks, like corn for ethanol, takes land away from food production and encroaches on natural ecosystems. Large-scale agricultural production of corn for ethanol often involves massive inputs of fertilizer, requires large quantities of water, contributes to soil erosion, and produces deadly run-off of pollution into freshwater sources — as illustrated by the Gulf of Mexico’s “Dead Zone.”

Brazil, which has harnessed its alt-fuel plans to sugar, noted wryly that perhaps this decision will spell the end to extensive federal subsidy of the corn-ethanol industry -- at the expense of Brazil's sugar-based alternative. The Brazilian Sugarcane Industry Assn. had this to say:

The attention now shifts to the U.S. Congress where lawmakers are debating what to do with the 30-year-old ethanol tax credit and import tariff that cost $6 billion annually. Allowing these subsidies to expire as scheduled at the end of the year will help lower gas prices, save taxpayers money and provide Americans with greater access to advanced renewable fuels like sugarcane ethanol.

As we indicated in our comments during the agency’s rulemaking, Brazil has decades of successful experience blending ethanol with gasoline at 25% concentrations. Brazilian ethanol is primarily sugarcane ethanol – a renewable fuel that is typically less expensive and cuts greenhouse gases much more sharply than other ethanol options. Allowing other alternative fuels like sugarcane ethanol to compete fairly in the U.S. would save American consumers money at the pump, cut dependence on Middle East oil and improve the environment.

EPA's waiver will require retailers to warn that E-15 is for use only in model year 2007 and newer cars. It is proposing a rule, subject to public comment and hearings, that would require uniform labeling on pumps:



California has already passed a comprehensive fuel standard for decreasing the carbon footprint of fuels, and it did not make friends in the corn-ethanol industry. That's because the California Air Resources Board used a formula that accounts for the full life-cycle of fuels, from their extraction (or cultivation, in the case of biofuels) to their combustion. Included in the calculation is the indirect effect of replacing cropland used for energy, which provoked the ire of the corn-ethanol industry.

-- Geoff Mohan
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Old Oct 13, 2010 | 09:36 PM
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I can't believe people are stupid enough to fall for this ethanol bullshit. My car gets 3-5mpg worse gas mileage with the 10% stuff we have in Colorado, if I fill up in Nebraska I can easily hit 29-30mpg on the highway. What a joke, pay more, get less actual fuel, and get less mileage.
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Old Oct 13, 2010 | 09:37 PM
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I heard somewhere that they had ditched the 15% mandate. Guess not.

Edit: I can't believe this. Most cars cannot run on more than 10% unless they are flex fuel vehicles. This is such bullshit.

Last edited by PortlandRL; Oct 13, 2010 at 09:51 PM.
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Old Oct 13, 2010 | 09:56 PM
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Complete and utter crap.

The EPA is completely in the pocket of the ethanol industry
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Old Oct 13, 2010 | 10:02 PM
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I hope distributors won't buy it. I have to wonder what will happen when the lawsuits over ruined engines start rolling in. If they start selling E15 here, I will start spending the extra $1.20 a gallon for ethanol-free gas.
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Old Oct 13, 2010 | 10:04 PM
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EPA =
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Old Oct 13, 2010 | 10:04 PM
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Don't expect to see this at your local pumps anytime soon. With the 2007 MY and above stipulation, distributors and retailers will avoid this stuff by a country mile.
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Old Oct 13, 2010 | 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Sly Raskal
EPA =
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Old Oct 13, 2010 | 10:11 PM
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http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp

Ethanol-free gas stations by state. I can verify some of these to be true by experience.
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Old Oct 13, 2010 | 10:36 PM
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Ken, I found a topic on a BMW message board (via Google) that Olson Brothers on McLoughlin (south of The Bomber) sells non-blended premium grade fuel. Before I drive all the way down there to see if this is the case, I sent them an e-mail to confirm. The BMW post was made in July so things could have changed since then. Here's to hoping they're right.
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Old Oct 13, 2010 | 10:40 PM
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Nice, thats news to me since I could NEVER find premium gas in Portland that was pure.
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Old Oct 13, 2010 | 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken1997TL
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp

Ethanol-free gas stations by state. I can verify some of these to be true by experience.
Wow, three in Michigan? And the nearest one is about a six hour drive? Roadtrip!
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Old Oct 13, 2010 | 10:45 PM
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They intentionally make it impossible to find because in Marxistown, Oregon, the only people who use non ethanol gas are terrorists and people who hate the earth.

Seriously though, I hope they still sell it because I'm only 4 miles away from there at least once a week. Just a quick jump down would not be out of the way and I think the Santa Fe would love me for it. Heck, it's already averaging 19.5 on E10...I bet it would get 20-22 on E0.
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Old Oct 13, 2010 | 10:55 PM
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I like how CA gets none. Guess I get my shit gas still.
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Old Oct 13, 2010 | 10:58 PM
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None in Nevada, either? That sucks.
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Old Oct 13, 2010 | 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Never Summer
My car gets 3-5mpg worse gas mileage with the 10% stuff we have in Colorado
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Old Oct 13, 2010 | 11:58 PM
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there is one station in nj... geez...
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Old Oct 14, 2010 | 01:55 AM
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on the comments in the thread so far

Supposedly though there will be a separate pump for 15% ethanol, and it won't be mandatory. It might cost less than comparable octane 10% ethanol though considering how insanely subsidized corn is... I still wouldn't get it, cause as mentioned MPGs go down the drain.
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Old Oct 14, 2010 | 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by PortlandRL
I hope distributors won't buy it. I have to wonder what will happen when the lawsuits over ruined engines start rolling in. If they start selling E15 here, I will start spending the extra $1.20 a gallon for ethanol-free gas.
Who will be sued? The retailer? The Govt.? Who will handle the suits?

What a clusterfuck.
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Old Oct 14, 2010 | 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken1997TL
http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp

Ethanol-free gas stations by state. I can verify some of these to be true by experience.
Hmmm nearest one is 27min away. Seems crazy to drive that far for gas but I may have to try it.
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Old Oct 14, 2010 | 09:52 AM
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Most of the non-ethanol pumps in my state are in the sticks!
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Old Oct 14, 2010 | 09:57 AM
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Great. Even worse MPG. That's very green...

God forbid you have a 2006 or older car and put this gas in it.
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Old Oct 14, 2010 | 11:26 AM
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I'm wondering what this means as far as the 91 we get as premium here, will the 15% raise or lower that?
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Old Oct 14, 2010 | 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Never Summer
I'm wondering what this means as far as the 91 we get as premium here, will the 15% raise or lower that?
Ethanol has a higher octane rating, but less energy content than gasoline.
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Old Oct 14, 2010 | 11:43 AM
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is the higher octane rating due to the hydrogen bond? but less energy due to the smaller carbon chain that gasoline?
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Old Oct 14, 2010 | 01:25 PM
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Vilsack,ex-Gov of Iowa. What did anyone expect?
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Old Oct 14, 2010 | 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mn2trance
Most of the non-ethanol pumps in my state are in the sticks!
Mostly because some boat and airplane engines CANNOT have any ethanol in them.
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Old Oct 14, 2010 | 03:04 PM
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So I'm not as knowledgeable in this as most of you, would someone care to explain why ethanol is bad for the engine? And if its bad why are they putting ethanol in it?
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Old Oct 14, 2010 | 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by speedemon90
So I'm not as knowledgeable in this as most of you, would someone care to explain why ethanol is bad for the engine? And if its bad why are they putting ethanol in it?
Because the EPA is a whore for money, and the money they get from corn is enough to keep them using it, and increasing the use. It's bad for the engine because engines are designed to run on gasoline, not ethanol, hence why cars get worse mileage due to ethanol.
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Old Oct 14, 2010 | 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by speedemon90
So I'm not as knowledgeable in this as most of you, would someone care to explain why ethanol is bad for the engine? And if its bad why are they putting ethanol in it?
Ethanol has less energy per fluid ounce and it is heavily subsidized by tax dollars. The whole thing is a scam.
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Old Oct 14, 2010 | 05:01 PM
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EPA and CARB are run by religious global climate change zealots.
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Old Oct 14, 2010 | 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Moog-Type-S
EPA and CARB are run by religious global climate change zealots.
Not to mention they're in the pockets of the ethanol producers and corn growers.
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Old Oct 14, 2010 | 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by speedemon90
So I'm not as knowledgeable in this as most of you, would someone care to explain why ethanol is bad for the engine? And if its bad why are they putting ethanol in it?
There's a big debate over whether or not ethanol fuel is bad for your engine. Ethanol is corrosive and it contains/absorbs water/moisture (more than non-ethanol blend gas, at least), and water can potentially damage your fuel system.

Older cars have seals that may or may not be able to withstand the ethanol... but on newer forced induction cars it has its purposes. As mentioned,

For sure though, something I can verify personally.... E85 resulted in worse gas mileage. As mentioned, it increases the octane but volume for volume it has less energy content than gasoline. My friend's Evo X got 20 mpg before E85, and after upgrading his fuel pump (necessary) and tuning and running on E85 he gets 14 mpg on average. Makes a lot more power though.
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Old Oct 14, 2010 | 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Costco
There's a big debate over whether or not ethanol fuel is bad for your engine. Ethanol is corrosive and it contains/absorbs water/moisture (more than non-ethanol blend gas, at least), and water can potentially damage your fuel system.

Older cars have seals that may or may not be able to withstand the ethanol... but on newer forced induction cars it has its purposes. As mentioned,

For sure though, something I can verify personally.... E85 resulted in worse gas mileage. As mentioned, it increases the octane but volume for volume it has less energy content than gasoline. My friend's Evo X got 20 mpg before E85, and after upgrading his fuel pump (necessary) and tuning and running on E85 he gets 14 mpg on average. Makes a lot more power though.



It will eat away at the hoses and seals unless it's rated for ethanol use. Now, E10 is somewhat okay because it's only 10% ethanol by volume. That is why E10 can be commonly found at gas stations. Bumping up the ethanol content will only cause issues for vehicles that are not designed to withstand the ethanol's characteristics. GM builds many of their cars with the FlexFuel capability at extra costs... I have yet to meet a FlexFuel GM owner who uses E85... I haven't even SEEN E85 anywhere during my 10+ years residence in Michigan and now 4+ years in Alabama. Never seen it on my road trips, either. GM gets subsidies and/or credits for their FlexFuel cars. That is why they crank them out.

Last edited by Pure Adrenaline; Oct 14, 2010 at 05:50 PM.
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Old Oct 14, 2010 | 05:51 PM
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Even here I only know of one station that sells E85 and it just so happens to be the same station that sells E0.
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Old Oct 14, 2010 | 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken1997TL
Mostly because some boat and airplane engines CANNOT have any ethanol in them.
not only that but a lot of inboard boats still have fuel tanks not designed to handle ethanol. It will eat it from the inside out. Additionally ethanol by nature absorbs water and in a marine environment thats a big no no. Lastly most marine engines are still carbs so switching to E-XX can mean have to fuck around with timing and carb jetting.
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Old Oct 14, 2010 | 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken1997TL
Complete and utter crap.

The EPA is completely in the pocket of the ethanol industry
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Old Oct 14, 2010 | 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Never Summer
Because the EPA is a whore for money, and the money they get from corn is enough to keep them using it, and increasing the use. It's bad for the engine because engines are designed to run on gasoline, not ethanol, hence why cars get worse mileage due to ethanol.
I wonder how much ethanol in the gas the EPA uses running in their mpg tests.

Looking at that website that shows ethanol free gas stations, I saw nothing in California, so I'm guessing most over here will be 10% ethanol?

Thats BS how the EPA is trying to create crazy standards and they are requiring stuff to go in fuel that brings down the mpg
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Old Oct 14, 2010 | 08:42 PM
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Every station that wants to sell it will have to add ANOTHER pump and tank for it. Only cars from 2007 and up can use it, it will destroy motorcycles, lawn mowers boat engines etc.. and the govt has even acknowledged it. They cant replace the 87 octane 10% as most of the cars out there cant run it. I hope none of the gas stations sell this shit. And i really hope the f'ing idiots mandating and passing this crap stand up to the Tree huggers that keep pushing this useless shit on us sooner than later. I get 60 miles or so less per tank with 10%. How is that helping any thing.

Ethanol crates like 66% of the energy that gasoline does and costs more to produce, and takes more energy to make than gas. How is it helping anything?
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Old Oct 14, 2010 | 08:47 PM
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It isn't helping....that's the point and the problem with government today. Oh...it doesn't work because the free market decides it's worthless? Oh well, let's just force it on everyone because Farmer John is getting pissed off.

Seems like the government has a very select list of people it likes to help and everybody else can go suck it.
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