stogie1020

OK, I have been trying to wrap my mind around options for off camera flash systems, (not studio lighting, just flash 430EX, 580EX, etc...).

Aside from a cord, what are my options regarding cordless, radio, IR, flash triggered, etc...?

I know Nikon () can have one flash control another; does Canon as well?

jupitersolo

Canon STE2

http://www.amazon.com/Canon-Speedlit...2367413&sr=8-1

rimz

nikon creative lighting system FTW...

stogie1020

What are the good Radio Controlled options?

Not sure I want to have to worry about line of sight with the STE2.

moeronn

I've also been looking into this. It seems that most of the cheaper e-bay options don't play very well with the 430EX and I don't know that I want to buy another flash at this time.

Also, you need to decide if you need any type of TTL, as that affects your choices.

Dan Martin

I'm using Elinchrom Skyports and they've been great off-camera solution. They work just like pocketwizards, but they're much cheaper and a fraction of the size. I also have the Canon off-camera shoe cord (OC-E2) but it doesn't get a lot of use these days.

Depending on your budget, you might even want to consider a RadioPopper kit: http://www.radiopopper.com/
It gives you wireless ETTL capability via RF instead of infrared.

stogie1020

^ to the fountain of knowledge, and your immense willingness to share!

Looks like it will be SkyPorts for me!

sixsixfour

Skyports if you are on a budget.

Pocketwizards if you are not.

stogie1020

I am looking to pick up a used 580EXII, so I think I will get the El-Skyports and use the rest for a second flash. I really liked the RadioPopper for the TTL, but $180 EACH?

stogie1020

Moe,what were you thinking of getting?

sixsixfour

yeah it gets expensive if your hobby isnt self funding

i found out long ago that to fuel this insanity, it has to pay for itself. so far, I havent had upset customers

Dan Martin

I know pocketwizards are "the standard" but they are stupidly big for what they are. I can fit 4 skyport recievers and a transmitter in the same space one pocketwizard takes up in my bag. I'm far less likely to take the pocketwizards if it means I have to leave 3 lenses at home.

Have you tried the skyports? If not, I think you'd be surprised.

Mizouse

im still debating whether or not to get my pocket wizards, shoot thru umbrella and stand for my 430ex...

sixsixfour

Ive tried them a few times, but sadly only after Ive gotten pocketwizards.

im the classic example of "if i knew then what i know now" it would have saved me a bit of money and some space in my gear bag

stogie1020

^and this is one of the many reasons I love this place. I get to learn from other's experiences! Way easier on the checkbook than figuring it all out on my own!

sixsixfour

hahaha

my loss = your gain

moeronn

I'm going to hold off for a while unless there are better reports about the ebay triggers. As much as I'd like to get some things (off camera flash and others), I've already spent quite a bit on new gear recently.

I'm interested to hear what you get and how it works out for you, though.

srika

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pea5e2Z5gyE

TS_eXpeed

You're just bitter.

Just kiddin.

Dan Martin

LOL!!!

lcrazyaznl

iTrader: (1)

Lol is that real or a joke?

Mizouse

interesting, ive actually wondered if anyone had done that before.

lcrazyaznl

iTrader: (1)

I was always wondering if there was a rig to set up a wireless flash to an umbrella thats portable. Honestely didn't expect someone to make it like that...

waTSX

That's pretty cool. There's a pretty striking difference between shots taken with off-camera flash and one mounted to the body. Much more natural-looking.

Billiam

That's the thing that's a bit frustrating about the term "off camera flash." To me it seems like you need to get the flash significantly off the camera to get that pleasing "more natural" look. So you really either need an assistant or you need static setup with stands and so forth.

The stuff I've seen done with the flash on a traditional camera flash bracket really doesn't look too much different to me than having the flash mounted right on the hot shoe. In wedding type situations I think the flash bracket would help a lot with eliminating red eye and reducing glare from oily skin and so forth. I just don't think the actual lighting of the subject is really changed that much by using a flash on a bracket.

JLatimer

What about Gary Fong's diffusers like the lightsphere? Is that not giving you that 'natural look"?

Dan Martin

Off camera flash is tricky, but it almost always looks better than a hotshoe flash. Hotshoe flash is fine for fill light, but it looks really harsh when used as a primary source. Even a pop-up flash works great as a fill light.

You're right about the flash bracket; the main benefit of using one is to eliminate red eye. It doesn't really do anything to soften shadows, in fact, it can actually make them worse by casting "racoon eyes" when you're close to the subject.

The only way to soften shadows is to make the light appear larger to the subject. A bare flash is very small in relation to the size of a person, so the shadows will be very harsh. If you shoot the flash into an umbrella or a softbox, and position it close to the subject, the light is coming from more angles and can "wrap around" the subject better.

Another way of thinking about this effect is to think of the sun. On a clear day, the sun casts a very sharp shadow because the relative size of the sun in the sky is very small compared to the subject. On the other extreme, if you shot on an overcast day, you'd notice that the shadows are very soft because the sky is diffusing the light and acting like a giant softbox.


The ideal situation for portrait photography is to have an assistant working the lights while you work the camera. Most of us are not lucky enough to have an assistant following us around when we want to take some photos, so this guy has rigged up a "one man band" solution to that problem. However, he has actually created a problem at the same time. How is he supposed to change the flash settings once it's suspended 5 feet away from him? Oh well, I'll still give him an "A" for effort.

If you have an off-camera cord (or transmitter), you can get pretty decent results just by using regular flash held at arm's length in your left hand while operating the camera in the right. I've used that technique for several shots, especially macros. For macros, I often have my tripod out, but it gets pretty crowded around the subject if I had a light stand there too, so I just set up the tripod and move the light around with my hand to get a few different angles.

Here's an example with the flash off-camera at arm's length to the subject:
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/acurazinedan/2728799404/" title="Hosta by AcuraZine Dan, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2114/2728799404_873a4aafd9.jpg" width="500" height="333" alt="Hosta" /></a>

Billiam

The diffusing devices are a discussion in and of themselves and they absolutely help quite a bit. In comparing flash bracket vs. hot shoe, however, they're sort of irrelivant. My contention is that even if you put a Stoffen or Lightsphere on a flash, you'll get hardly any visible difference in subject lighting with that flash mounted on a flash bracket vs. the flash mounted on the camera's hot shoe.

Billiam

I'm not familiar with the intimate details of the Nikon system but I though I remembered reading somewhere that you could use a hot shoe mounted Speedlight as just a controller for other off camera speedlights. That obviously doesn't help with this guy's Pocket Wizard setup (or any Canon shooters) though.

BTW, with just a little bit of work, the guy in the video could be a NASA TDRS satellite for Halloween.

Dan Martin

It all comes down to the relative size of the light to your subject. Most of his effect comes from bouncing the flash off the ceiling or walls, which you can do with any diffuser. If you take his product outdoors, the effect is very minimal. All you're getting is a flash that was 4" wide is now 6" wide. For that minimal increase in size, you lose about a stop worth of power because it.

For a noticeable change, you need to make your light source as large as you can to the subject. An extra couple inches here or there isn't going to do it, you need something big! A 30" to 36" umbrella is a pretty standard piece of kit for any portrait photog and they're very affordable. Of course they're not as portable as something stuck to your hotshoe flash (as this video clearly illustrates) but if you're planning a shoot somewhere, you can easily fit two or three complete lighting kits in a backpack.

In a nutshell, a diffuser can make a difference in the right situations, but the have become the snakeoil of the lighting world. The more you know about lighting, the more you realize how little you need to get great results. Often a bare flash bounced into a wall or off the ceiling with a catch light card will get you far better results.

JLatimer

You sound like Bryan Petersen - I just finished reading 3 of his books and am really anxious to put what I learned to work.

sixsixfour

QFT

Evader

Nikon has a few options for off-camera flash systems which they call "speedlights" Does anyone have any experience with these and have a reccomendation for one to mount on my D60? What types of photos are these off-camera flashes typically used, does it really help make a shot that much better? I'm think it might be a good idea to add one to my gear but don't know even know what to consider when making my consideration.

Thanks in advance for the help!

Mizouse

Nikon SB-800?

usually flash is used for fill light or to illuminate the subject when it is too dark.

it can make the shot alot better, and it can make it look worse.



i still have alot to learn with flash.

moeronn

Evader - I think there are two separate issues that you are combining into one.

1 - There is the option of adding an external flash to your camera. This is what most people do and isn't truly considered off camera lighting.

2 - Taking a (or many) flash or strobe and placing it away from the camera to acheive results you cannot get with a flash on the camera. This is generally what people mean by off-camera.

Of course, a speedlight can be used both ways.

srika

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking, but if you mean as opposed to the D60's built-in flash, yes an SB-600 or 800 will give you much better results. But adding one on top of the D60 would not be called an off-camera flash.

Evader

moeronn/srika: Thank you both for the clarification. It's pretty obvious after I think about this for a second that "off camera flash" is exactly that... off the camera, I feel like such an idiot now. Anyway, since i've already hijacked the the thread can I hear thoughts on the mounted flash options offered by nikkon? I always thought flashes were used for low-light situations but I see people using flash all the time, even out doors.

For example, I saw someone in the park this past weekend taking shots of flowers with his macro lens and he was using his flash mounted system.

Then there is the question about "bouncing" the flash off a wall or another surface. I don't really understand how this has an affect on the portrait that is being shot. I'm sorry for the n00b questions. I'm fascinated in photography and it doesn't get much better than the AZ family.

moeronn

I don't know the specifics about Nikon flashes, but the principles are the same. I do know that Nikon has more features for using off-camera flash natively in there units, but again, I don't know the specifics.

Yes, flash is used for all kinds of situations, not just night or dark interiors. It can be used to fill in shadows in harsh lighting conditions, create moods/dramatic affect and all kinds of things. For macro, it can be used for suplemental lighting or off camera for dramatic effect as Dan Martin showed above.

As for bouncing off a wall or ceiling, that is done to make the light source larger - therefore reducing shadows and creating more even light on the subject. It works to varying degrees depending on color and distance of the wall/ceiling.

I'm still a flash n00b, too. Hell, I just realized how to use my flash in manual mode less than a month ago (after owning it for nearly 2 years). And that doesn't mean I know how to use it properly, I just know how to change settings

Eventually, I want to get some type of off-camera system to try different lighting techniques and get less "snap-shot" type results from how I use it now. In due time, though.

srika

all good Evader

information = knowledge = progress

Mizouse

damn, no thanks to me

guess i should have spent more than 10 seconds writing my post.