Saturn Sky News **Redline Previewed by C&D (page 9)**
01-04-2006, 03:44 PM
#123
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Originally Posted by jt24yo
it surprises me that the price for this sky convertible is almost $4K higher than that of its identical brother, the soltice. 
03-20-2006, 08:47 AM
#124
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Saturn dealers mark up Sky by several thousand
Saturn dealers mark up Sky by several thousand
Some Saturn dealers are beginning to inform customers that they will be selling the Saturn Sky roadster for more than the suggested retail price of $23,690. According to the Orange County Register, some dealers will sell the vehicles for as much as $3,000 over MSRP. In January, we reported that some dealers were selling the Pontiac Solstice — a sister vehicle to the Sky — for as much as $5,000 over MSRP, much to the outrage of many Pontiac fans.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/
Some Saturn dealers are beginning to inform customers that they will be selling the Saturn Sky roadster for more than the suggested retail price of $23,690. According to the Orange County Register, some dealers will sell the vehicles for as much as $3,000 over MSRP. In January, we reported that some dealers were selling the Pontiac Solstice — a sister vehicle to the Sky — for as much as $5,000 over MSRP, much to the outrage of many Pontiac fans.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/
Last edited by deandorsey; 03-20-2006 at 08:50 AM.
03-20-2006, 09:22 AM
#125
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Orange County Register huh...you gotta understand this is So Cal....they mark up up civics and accords out here...
03-20-2006, 09:22 AM
#126
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Originally Posted by deandorsey
Saturn dealers mark up Sky by several thousand
Some Saturn dealers are beginning to inform customers that they will be selling the Saturn Sky roadster for more than the suggested retail price of $23,690. According to the Orange County Register, some dealers will sell the vehicles for as much as $3,000 over MSRP. In January, we reported that some dealers were selling the Pontiac Solstice — a sister vehicle to the Sky — for as much as $5,000 over MSRP, much to the outrage of many Pontiac fans.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/
Some Saturn dealers are beginning to inform customers that they will be selling the Saturn Sky roadster for more than the suggested retail price of $23,690. According to the Orange County Register, some dealers will sell the vehicles for as much as $3,000 over MSRP. In January, we reported that some dealers were selling the Pontiac Solstice — a sister vehicle to the Sky — for as much as $5,000 over MSRP, much to the outrage of many Pontiac fans.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/
Cocksucking scumbag car salesmen.
03-20-2006, 12:01 PM
#127
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Originally Posted by NSXNEXT
Cocksucking scumbag car salesmen.
First it's callled supply and demand... or Capitalism. Second it's the SUGGESTED RETAIL PRICE every dealer can set there own prices. Don't like it don't buy it. Last the salesman doesn't set the price the dealership does.Sometimes I you people think it is a non profit business
And I would expect a little better from a MODERATOR
03-20-2006, 01:05 PM
#129
Burning Brakes
Saturday, March 18, 2006
Saturn pricing loses some luster
Some dealers charge more than retail for the Sky roadster, angering many loyalists.
By JOHN GITTELSOHN
The Orange County Register
PRICE: "We always highly encourage our retailers not to sell above the MSRP," said Jill Lajdziak, Saturn’s general manager.
Saturn has a problem most U.S. automakers would envy: Its newest model, the 2007 Sky roadster, is so popular that some dealers are adding a premium to the $23,690 manufacturer's suggested price.
But some of Saturn's most loyal fans say premiums violate the automaker's "no hassle, no haggle" pricing policy, a bedrock of Saturn's covenant with consumers.
When Dennis Gaschen, a professor of communications at Cal State Fullerton, first set eyes on the Sky in December, he liked it so much he put down a $1,000 deposit, even though the car won't arrive in dealerships until April.
But Gaschen's attraction to the car dipped after salespeople in Orange County said he would have to pay $3,000 more than the suggested retail price. He thinks other customers will balk, too.
"Consumers are going to feel cheated because that's their perception of the policy," said Gaschen, who is using the Sky pricing controversy as a lesson in his classes.
Brian Brockman, a Saturn spokesman, said the company's pricing policy simply states that every customer gets the same deal.
"You know the price that's quoted on the vehicle you're looking at is the same as the last guy who walked in the door," Brockman said from his office in Detroit. "The price is not dependent on how well you negotiate."
Many dealers charge a premium for popular cars. The ToyotaPrius, MiniCooper and ChryslerPT Cruiser are among recent models that marked up their sticker price because of high initial demand.
Saturn corporate officials said they are aware that some dealers are charging premiums on the Sky, although they frown on the practice.
"Retailers are free to set their own prices, but we always highly encourage our retailers not to sell above the MSRP," Saturn's general manager, Jill Lajdziak, said in a statement. "We feel that MSRP represents real value in the marketplace. We are confident in the integrity of our retail network and their respect for the Saturn pricing philosophy."
Mike Stout, general manager of Orange County's only Saturn dealerships – in Anaheim, Huntington Beach and Santa Ana – declined to answer questions about the Sky's local pricing policy. Reached three times by phone in Atlanta, Stout said he would have time to discuss the matter in one or two weeks.
Although this may be the first time Saturn has charged a premium on its cars, dealers have reduced prices in the past on cars that were slow to move off the lot.
Saturn plans to make fewer than 10,000 Skys, which are built on the same chassis as the popular Pontiac Solstice and the Opel GT. The Sky's cloth-top convertible disappears into the trunk, exposing a body that resembles such popular roadsters as the Mazda Miata or the BMW Z4.
News of the sticker premium sparked outrage among some of Saturn's most loyal customers. On the Saturn Fans Web site - www.saturnfans.com - 85 percent of votes cast in an online survey agreed that jacking up the Sky's price violates Saturn's customer-friendly image.
A posting by Sky Pilot of Newport Beach said: "Having contacted several dealers here in SoCal, I found most very eager to line their pockets and Saturn's philosophy be damned! Those dealers will NEVER get my hard earned dollars."
Saturn, which produced its first car on a Spring Hill, Tenn., assembly line in 1990, cultivated an image as a homespun carmaker that treats customers like family. "The Saturn Promise," according to the company Web site, says "we offer a no-hassle experience and no-haggle prices. It's about giving you 30 days to change your mind when you buy your Saturn. And it's about a trusted team of service professionals who will treat you with honesty and respect. In short, it's about making sure you love what you drive."
John Sackrison, executive director of the Orange County Automobile Dealers Association, said a high price is good news for General Motors, which lost $10.6 billion last year. He also said car owners in image-conscious Orange County often pay more for a new model.
"It's very exciting to be one of the few people on the road with a brand-new, hot car," Sackrison said.
Charging a premium is part of a long-term shift in Saturn's market positioning, said Charlie Vogelheim, vice president of automotive development for J.D. Power & Associates. The company is focused on competing with European automakers instead of Asians. "We're forecasting greater volume because of new products," he said.
Saturn sales grew about 1 percent nationwide last year to 213,657 vehicles - including 1,373 in Orange County. By contrast, total sales for General Motors vehicles dipped 4.3 percent nationwide to 4.45 million cars and trucks.
Still, Vogelheim warned that deviating from its time-tested pricing strategy could turn off Saturn fans.
"There's no denying that for a while, when they started out, they could have charged a premium for Saturn but didn't," he said. "A lot of their popularity was from the buying experience, and I know a lot of people made their decision based on that."
http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister...le_1057606.php
Saturn pricing loses some luster
Some dealers charge more than retail for the Sky roadster, angering many loyalists.
By JOHN GITTELSOHN
The Orange County Register
PRICE: "We always highly encourage our retailers not to sell above the MSRP," said Jill Lajdziak, Saturn’s general manager.
Saturn has a problem most U.S. automakers would envy: Its newest model, the 2007 Sky roadster, is so popular that some dealers are adding a premium to the $23,690 manufacturer's suggested price.
But some of Saturn's most loyal fans say premiums violate the automaker's "no hassle, no haggle" pricing policy, a bedrock of Saturn's covenant with consumers.
When Dennis Gaschen, a professor of communications at Cal State Fullerton, first set eyes on the Sky in December, he liked it so much he put down a $1,000 deposit, even though the car won't arrive in dealerships until April.
But Gaschen's attraction to the car dipped after salespeople in Orange County said he would have to pay $3,000 more than the suggested retail price. He thinks other customers will balk, too.
"Consumers are going to feel cheated because that's their perception of the policy," said Gaschen, who is using the Sky pricing controversy as a lesson in his classes.
Brian Brockman, a Saturn spokesman, said the company's pricing policy simply states that every customer gets the same deal.
"You know the price that's quoted on the vehicle you're looking at is the same as the last guy who walked in the door," Brockman said from his office in Detroit. "The price is not dependent on how well you negotiate."
Many dealers charge a premium for popular cars. The ToyotaPrius, MiniCooper and ChryslerPT Cruiser are among recent models that marked up their sticker price because of high initial demand.
Saturn corporate officials said they are aware that some dealers are charging premiums on the Sky, although they frown on the practice.
"Retailers are free to set their own prices, but we always highly encourage our retailers not to sell above the MSRP," Saturn's general manager, Jill Lajdziak, said in a statement. "We feel that MSRP represents real value in the marketplace. We are confident in the integrity of our retail network and their respect for the Saturn pricing philosophy."
Mike Stout, general manager of Orange County's only Saturn dealerships – in Anaheim, Huntington Beach and Santa Ana – declined to answer questions about the Sky's local pricing policy. Reached three times by phone in Atlanta, Stout said he would have time to discuss the matter in one or two weeks.
Although this may be the first time Saturn has charged a premium on its cars, dealers have reduced prices in the past on cars that were slow to move off the lot.
Saturn plans to make fewer than 10,000 Skys, which are built on the same chassis as the popular Pontiac Solstice and the Opel GT. The Sky's cloth-top convertible disappears into the trunk, exposing a body that resembles such popular roadsters as the Mazda Miata or the BMW Z4.
News of the sticker premium sparked outrage among some of Saturn's most loyal customers. On the Saturn Fans Web site - www.saturnfans.com - 85 percent of votes cast in an online survey agreed that jacking up the Sky's price violates Saturn's customer-friendly image.
A posting by Sky Pilot of Newport Beach said: "Having contacted several dealers here in SoCal, I found most very eager to line their pockets and Saturn's philosophy be damned! Those dealers will NEVER get my hard earned dollars."
Saturn, which produced its first car on a Spring Hill, Tenn., assembly line in 1990, cultivated an image as a homespun carmaker that treats customers like family. "The Saturn Promise," according to the company Web site, says "we offer a no-hassle experience and no-haggle prices. It's about giving you 30 days to change your mind when you buy your Saturn. And it's about a trusted team of service professionals who will treat you with honesty and respect. In short, it's about making sure you love what you drive."
John Sackrison, executive director of the Orange County Automobile Dealers Association, said a high price is good news for General Motors, which lost $10.6 billion last year. He also said car owners in image-conscious Orange County often pay more for a new model.
"It's very exciting to be one of the few people on the road with a brand-new, hot car," Sackrison said.
Charging a premium is part of a long-term shift in Saturn's market positioning, said Charlie Vogelheim, vice president of automotive development for J.D. Power & Associates. The company is focused on competing with European automakers instead of Asians. "We're forecasting greater volume because of new products," he said.
Saturn sales grew about 1 percent nationwide last year to 213,657 vehicles - including 1,373 in Orange County. By contrast, total sales for General Motors vehicles dipped 4.3 percent nationwide to 4.45 million cars and trucks.
Still, Vogelheim warned that deviating from its time-tested pricing strategy could turn off Saturn fans.
"There's no denying that for a while, when they started out, they could have charged a premium for Saturn but didn't," he said. "A lot of their popularity was from the buying experience, and I know a lot of people made their decision based on that."
http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister...le_1057606.php
03-20-2006, 03:38 PM
#132
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It's any interesting thing going on over there... I agree that the no haggle pricing is the cornerstone of Saturn's philosophy, and should be left entact. However, when you have hot ass product like this, what do you do? This will only weed out those who won't pay the premium RIGHT NOW... it's not like there won't be an opportunity to buy a Sky at MSRP at a later date.
03-20-2006, 04:29 PM
#135
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GM wouldn't hesitate to screw its dealers (intentionally or not), like they did when they pulled Olds.
Why should dealers stand by GM's 'no haggle' policy imposed on Saturn if GM has been giving them uncompetitive sub-standard products for so long?
I honestly think this is dealer greed to tack on $3k, but then again even if ONE person is willing to pay the $3k markup, then this person just justified the dealer's action as being sound.
Why should dealers stand by GM's 'no haggle' policy imposed on Saturn if GM has been giving them uncompetitive sub-standard products for so long?
I honestly think this is dealer greed to tack on $3k, but then again even if ONE person is willing to pay the $3k markup, then this person just justified the dealer's action as being sound.
03-20-2006, 05:12 PM
#136
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GM made the mistake of letting Saturn produce such a desireable vehicle without thinking through all the possible consequences. This will certatainly be a test of Saturn's integrity.
Whoa...I just used the word "integrity" within the context of a car dealership.
But, mrdeeno is correct. If there is some chump who will pay $3000 more for a Saturn, he/she is entitlted to purchase the vehicle. Dealers would be stupid not to take their money.
This is why poh peeples hates reech peeples.
Whoa...I just used the word "integrity" within the context of a car dealership.
But, mrdeeno is correct. If there is some chump who will pay $3000 more for a Saturn, he/she is entitlted to purchase the vehicle. Dealers would be stupid not to take their money.
This is why poh peeples hates reech peeples.
03-20-2006, 05:19 PM
#137
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Originally Posted by Stevens24
First it's callled supply and demand... or Capitalism. Second it's the SUGGESTED RETAIL PRICE every dealer can set there own prices. Don't like it don't buy it. Last the salesman doesn't set the price the dealership does.Sometimes I you people think it is a non profit business
And I would expect a little better from a MODERATOR
When I sold Hondas, we refused to have dealer markups. I sold S2000s (in Ohio) to people in Oregon...because it was cheaper for them to buy from me (because parents, family, who ever lived where I sold.) and pay a grand to trailer it out west, then it was to pay ridiculous dealer markup.
Dealers for the most part are greedy fuckers, and have no sense of their customer even though they claim they do. If they did, they would markup SRT vehicles 10g, or new civic or Odys 5g, or new HHRs 3g etc etc etc. Because that tells me not to buy from them, ever. And it should tell everyone else the same thing.
Dealer markup is unjust, and its because makers dont have any control over their dealers...and most (GM, Ford) dont seem to care.
03-20-2006, 05:21 PM
#138
Originally Posted by Stevens24
And I would expect a little better from a MODERATOR
's. quit yer bitchin.
Last edited by zeroday; 03-20-2006 at 05:23 PM.
03-20-2006, 06:34 PM
#139
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Originally Posted by The Sarlacc
Doesn't matter. Selling over MSRP is a total customer turn off. This is why Lexus will not let their dealers do it. Very smart of Lexus to keep it's reigns as tight over their dealers as they do. Its lead to very good things from them.
And as for Lexus keeping tight reigns over its dealerships, that's the difference between a high quality, customer oriented dealership vs. a Saturn dealership (or any other dealerships where corporate doesn't have much say).
03-20-2006, 07:18 PM
#140
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economics class tells me that there is absolutly no reason to omit a price hike, it is basic supply and demand
but gm sucks, and if i take my import buying ass into their showroom and see one of their 3 good cars selling at over $3g over sticker, i will NOT wait and i will NOT waste my time ever going to that dealership again
but gm sucks, and if i take my import buying ass into their showroom and see one of their 3 good cars selling at over $3g over sticker, i will NOT wait and i will NOT waste my time ever going to that dealership again
03-20-2006, 07:20 PM
#141
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Originally Posted by The Sarlacc
Doesn't matter. Selling over MSRP is a total customer turn off. This is why Lexus will not let their dealers do it. Very smart of Lexus to keep it's reigns as tight over their dealers as they do. Its lead to very good things from them.
When I sold Hondas, we refused to have dealer markups. I sold S2000s (in Ohio) to people in Oregon...because it was cheaper for them to buy from me (because parents, family, who ever lived where I sold.) and pay a grand to trailer it out west, then it was to pay ridiculous dealer markup.
Dealers for the most part are greedy fuckers, and have no sense of their customer even though they claim they do. If they did, they would markup SRT vehicles 10g, or new civic or Odys 5g, or new HHRs 3g etc etc etc. Because that tells me not to buy from them, ever. And it should tell everyone else the same thing.
Dealer markup is unjust, and its because makers dont have any control over their dealers...and most (GM, Ford) dont seem to care.
When I sold Hondas, we refused to have dealer markups. I sold S2000s (in Ohio) to people in Oregon...because it was cheaper for them to buy from me (because parents, family, who ever lived where I sold.) and pay a grand to trailer it out west, then it was to pay ridiculous dealer markup.
Dealers for the most part are greedy fuckers, and have no sense of their customer even though they claim they do. If they did, they would markup SRT vehicles 10g, or new civic or Odys 5g, or new HHRs 3g etc etc etc. Because that tells me not to buy from them, ever. And it should tell everyone else the same thing.
Dealer markup is unjust, and its because makers dont have any control over their dealers...and most (GM, Ford) dont seem to care.
Correct me if I am wrong but Lexus hasn't had too many products prior to the new IS and the RX400 where it would have been an issue. That said they circumvent this with 1k window tint and 4k wheel and tire packages etc.
Personally, I have never had a problem with market adjustments. If the car is hot let them sell it for what they can get, period. I mean I don't see anyone bitchin' when they get a DISCOUNT on a car. I have always felt that everyone that complains about market adjustments should simply have to pay MSRP for every car they buy in the future. With all this said I have never paid over MSRP for a car and only paid MSRP once. Does it turn people off, I am sure it does, but if I had the money I wouldn't think twice about paying 30K over for an F430! I agree a Solstice and Sky are completely different animals but the adjustments will be gone in no time and those that wait can feel even better about their purchase.
03-20-2006, 08:07 PM
#143
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Originally Posted by TinkyWinky
So could someone explain to me the reason why we need a dealer to purchase a car?
03-20-2006, 08:11 PM
#144
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
same reason you have to go to the grocery store to buy cambell's cream of mushroom soup...most manufacturers don't sell direct to consumers.
03-20-2006, 08:34 PM
#145
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
same reason you have to go to the grocery store to buy cambell's cream of mushroom soup...most manufacturers don't sell direct to consumers.
03-20-2006, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by SpeedyV6
Actually automakers like Henry Ford wanted to control the ownership of their distribution networks for themselves. The dealer network arose from antitrust laws that forced automakers to divest from their distribution channels and intended to disburse a portion of the profit from selling cars back to the local community from whih the sales are generated instead of sending all the profit back to Detroit.
03-20-2006, 08:42 PM
#147
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This is the way I see Saturn of past...
When I was shopping for my first car back in '96, I went to the Honda dealership and test drove the civic coupe EX. This had power everything including sunroof.
Then I went down the street to the saturn dealership. For about $1k more than the civic's MSRP, the saturn coupe (sc2 or something?) had manual windows and no sunroof. I don't remembver the engine specs but I think it had less hp too. It goes without saying which car I got, BELOW msrp.
But the saturn DID have no haggle pricing!
The no-haggle thing is a crock. EVERY dealership has no haggle pricing...it's called "MSRP". The only difference is that Saturn dealers got the "no-haggle" reputation through branding by GM. So people who don't research cars extensively feel they got the best price because the dealership doesn't "haggle". It's the same thing as a dealer saying "We cannot go below MSRP"...but since it's corporate GM saying it rather than a dealer, people are more willing to accept it.
As for Saturn of present...If I was a dealer I'd milk all I could while times are good (relatively speaking). Theres no telling where GM's gonna go in 3-5 years. They could file bankruptcy which wouldn't mean that the company stops producing cars, but it would mean people would be less likely to buy a GM product. They could even pull Saturn from the market in order to focus on "core" brands.
When I was shopping for my first car back in '96, I went to the Honda dealership and test drove the civic coupe EX. This had power everything including sunroof.
Then I went down the street to the saturn dealership. For about $1k more than the civic's MSRP, the saturn coupe (sc2 or something?) had manual windows and no sunroof. I don't remembver the engine specs but I think it had less hp too. It goes without saying which car I got, BELOW msrp.
But the saturn DID have no haggle pricing!
The no-haggle thing is a crock. EVERY dealership has no haggle pricing...it's called "MSRP". The only difference is that Saturn dealers got the "no-haggle" reputation through branding by GM. So people who don't research cars extensively feel they got the best price because the dealership doesn't "haggle". It's the same thing as a dealer saying "We cannot go below MSRP"...but since it's corporate GM saying it rather than a dealer, people are more willing to accept it.
As for Saturn of present...If I was a dealer I'd milk all I could while times are good (relatively speaking). Theres no telling where GM's gonna go in 3-5 years. They could file bankruptcy which wouldn't mean that the company stops producing cars, but it would mean people would be less likely to buy a GM product. They could even pull Saturn from the market in order to focus on "core" brands.
03-20-2006, 08:44 PM
#148
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Originally Posted by TinkyWinky
Thanks for the info. Gotta love the government for adding more layers between the manufacturer and the consumer.
03-20-2006, 11:12 PM
#149
Can't they just make more? I know GM's got the capacity.
03-20-2006, 11:20 PM
#150
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Originally Posted by ilitig8
Correct me if I am wrong but Lexus hasn't had too many products prior to the new IS and the RX400 where it would have been an issue. That said they circumvent this with 1k window tint and 4k wheel and tire packages etc.
.
.
The SC hardtop was a pretty hot ticket when it first came out...whether people want to admit it or not. But yeah. the 400h was a biggie that came to mind since my folks have one.
03-20-2006, 11:21 PM
#151
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Originally Posted by mrdeeno
YAnd as for Lexus keeping tight reigns over its dealerships, that's the difference between a high quality, customer oriented dealership vs. a Saturn dealership (or any other dealerships where corporate doesn't have much say).
03-21-2006, 10:23 AM
#153
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Originally Posted by The Sarlacc
I havent known any lexus dealers to make many accessry packages out of all the ones I've been to/dealt with (parents have owned them for years now.) But I am sure they exist...though I see it more with honda dealers etc etc etc.
The SC hardtop was a pretty hot ticket when it first came out...whether people want to admit it or not. But yeah. the 400h was a biggie that came to mind since my folks have one.
The SC hardtop was a pretty hot ticket when it first came out...whether people want to admit it or not. But yeah. the 400h was a biggie that came to mind since my folks have one.
I hadn't heard of it until the IS, then I saw it on all the Lexus boards. Whether or not it happened before that I don't know, as nothing Lexus has ever had caused me to research it other than truck based SUVs and they sold under MSRP pretty quickly. The current SC makes sense to have been hot in certain markets but I can't speak to the practices with it regarding price.
The real test for Lexus will be when they bring out their "super car" attempt.
03-21-2006, 11:02 AM
#155
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Originally Posted by ilitig8
Nope that is Sarlac, he is into the whole Furry scene. 
) Then, I would be into the whole latex scene, humping a balloon like that.
03-21-2006, 11:13 AM
#156
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Originally Posted by The Sarlacc
If that is me (not admitting anything here ) Then, I would be into the whole latex scene, humping a balloon like that.
) Then, I would be into the whole latex scene, humping a balloon like that.
03-21-2006, 11:23 AM
#157
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Originally Posted by Stevens24
And I would expect a little better from a MODERATOR
Sorry
Didn't mean to get your panties all in a bunchMight want to get some thicker skin if you want to survive on this board.
03-21-2006, 12:11 PM
#158
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Originally Posted by The Sarlacc
If that is me (not admitting anything here ) Then, I would be into the whole latex scene, humping a balloon like that.
) Then, I would be into the whole latex scene, humping a balloon like that.Admit it your just a leader in the fetish scene the first to come to "market" with a hybrid (I hear hybrids are hot right now). You have melded the kinks of Furry and Latex culture into a single package. Better grab your domain www.Furtex.com quick! Oops someone beat you to it, those nughty nughty folks from the Netherlands! The bear even winks at you on the opening page...
03-21-2006, 05:02 PM
#159
Moderator
Regional Coordinator (Southeast)
Regional Coordinator (Southeast)
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Originally Posted by NSXNEXT
Sorry Didn't mean to get your panties all in a bunch
Might want to get some thicker skin if you want to survive on this board.
Didn't mean to get your panties all in a bunchMight want to get some thicker skin if you want to survive on this board.
03-21-2006, 05:04 PM
#160
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
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Originally Posted by ilitig8
Admit it your just a leader in the fetish scene the first to come to "market" with a hybrid (I hear hybrids are hot right now). You have melded the kinks of Furry and Latex culture into a single package. Better grab your domain www.Furtex.com quick! Oops someone beat you to it, those nughty nughty folks from the Netherlands! The bear even winks at you on the opening page...