Pontiac GTO News **Lessons learned (page 19)**
05-07-2004, 10:15 AM
#203
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Originally posted by gavriil
Storming Astra Leads VXR Charge - - By Craig Cheetham - - - Source: Autoexpress
Meanwhile, the maker has revealed more details about its first two VXR models, which will be used to launch the brand at the Birmingham event - and we have the first pictures of both! The flagship will be a 380bhp version of the 5.7-litre V8 Monaro, identifiable from lesser models by its lower front bumper, side skirts and 19-inch wheels.
Other tweaks include stiffer sports suspension and larger-diameter brake discs to rein in the extra power. Inside, it gets Alcantara sports seats and extra dials giving voltage and oil pressure readouts. Performance and price details have yet to be released, but it's believed the Monaro VXR will cover 0-60mph in less than five seconds and cost £35,595 when it arrives in the summer.
Storming Astra Leads VXR Charge - - By Craig Cheetham - - - Source: Autoexpress
Meanwhile, the maker has revealed more details about its first two VXR models, which will be used to launch the brand at the Birmingham event - and we have the first pictures of both! The flagship will be a 380bhp version of the 5.7-litre V8 Monaro, identifiable from lesser models by its lower front bumper, side skirts and 19-inch wheels.
Other tweaks include stiffer sports suspension and larger-diameter brake discs to rein in the extra power. Inside, it gets Alcantara sports seats and extra dials giving voltage and oil pressure readouts. Performance and price details have yet to be released, but it's believed the Monaro VXR will cover 0-60mph in less than five seconds and cost £35,595 when it arrives in the summer.
05-24-2004, 10:32 AM
#209
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Slow Goat: Controversial styling, high price hobble initial sales of new GTO - - By K.C. CRAIN | Automotive News - - Source: Autoweek
DETROIT - The Pontiac GTO, a pet project of General Motors product czar Robert Lutz, is off to a slow start.
Dealers say the GTO - touted as a halo car for Pontiac - suffers from bland styling, a high sticker price and no incentives.
"The car is more conservative looking than today's customer expects," says dealer Hugh Fiore, owner of Harbor Motors in Old Saybrook, Conn.
So far this year, Pontiac has sold just 2,451 units. Discounting seasonal differences, that amounts to an annualized rate of 7,300 units - well below Pontiac's 16,000-unit target. GM has a 168-day supply of GTOs, well above the 60-day supply that is considered ideal. A December launch slowed sales of the Australian-built car, says Pontiac spokesman Jim Hopson. "Winter probably isn't the best time to launch a rear-wheel-drive vehicle," he says. "However, we're already beginning to see sales pick up with the nice weather."
Pontiac sold 719 GTOs in March and 650 in April.
GM launched an advertising campaign for the GTO in November. Pontiac hopes the USA Network cable TV movie The Last Ride will help spread the word. The movie features the GTO.
Lutz, vice chairman for product development, pushed the Australian car to the United States with only minor changes.
GM engineers reworked the Holden Monaro, giving it left-hand drive and a Pontiac front end. The V-8 received 48 more horsepower, for a total of 350 hp. The exterior received a new front fascia and a spoiler.
Lutz praised the car's "brawny, muscular stance." But many enthusiasts say the reborn GTO lacks the in-your-face styling of the original muscle car, fondly nicknamed the Goat.
"When you come back with a name like GTO, you need something more," says one Detroit area sales manager who declined to be named.
Last week at a press event in Detroit, Kip Wasenko, director of design for GM's performance division, said, "You heard me talking about heritage. That's probably one of the things the GTO could probably use a little more of. But other people find it quiet and reserved because not everyone wants in-your-face, look-at-me kind of style."
Some dealers say the market for coupes is limited, and the sticker is high. The GTO starts at $33,495, including the destination charge. The 2004 Ford Mustang with a V-8 starts at $24,300.
The GTO lacks popular extras such as hood scoops, a sunroof and factory chrome wheels, some dealers say. Rumors have circulated that the 2005 model will have different styling and more horsepower, but GM declined to comment.
Uneven allocation to dealerships may be one factor in the slow sales start. One dealer, for example, says the Detroit area is flooded with GTOs. Hopson says the company has changed its allocation, shipping more vehicles to dealerships where the car is selling.
Some dealerships report brisk sales. Dennis Hadd, sales manager of McNamara Pontiac in Orlando, Fla., says, "All but a couple of our allocation are sold. A vast majority were pre-sold." McNamara has sold about 10 GTOs.
Last year the company said it planned to sell 18,000 GTOs. But Holden plans to assemble 16,000 GTOs this year in Australia. The GM subsidiary can produce up to 18,000 GTOs annually in coming years.
As of last week Holden had built 8,500 GTOs. At least 6,000 are in the United States, and another 1,000 are in transit, GM says.
DETROIT - The Pontiac GTO, a pet project of General Motors product czar Robert Lutz, is off to a slow start.
Dealers say the GTO - touted as a halo car for Pontiac - suffers from bland styling, a high sticker price and no incentives.
"The car is more conservative looking than today's customer expects," says dealer Hugh Fiore, owner of Harbor Motors in Old Saybrook, Conn.
So far this year, Pontiac has sold just 2,451 units. Discounting seasonal differences, that amounts to an annualized rate of 7,300 units - well below Pontiac's 16,000-unit target. GM has a 168-day supply of GTOs, well above the 60-day supply that is considered ideal. A December launch slowed sales of the Australian-built car, says Pontiac spokesman Jim Hopson. "Winter probably isn't the best time to launch a rear-wheel-drive vehicle," he says. "However, we're already beginning to see sales pick up with the nice weather."
Pontiac sold 719 GTOs in March and 650 in April.
GM launched an advertising campaign for the GTO in November. Pontiac hopes the USA Network cable TV movie The Last Ride will help spread the word. The movie features the GTO.
Lutz, vice chairman for product development, pushed the Australian car to the United States with only minor changes.
GM engineers reworked the Holden Monaro, giving it left-hand drive and a Pontiac front end. The V-8 received 48 more horsepower, for a total of 350 hp. The exterior received a new front fascia and a spoiler.
Lutz praised the car's "brawny, muscular stance." But many enthusiasts say the reborn GTO lacks the in-your-face styling of the original muscle car, fondly nicknamed the Goat.
"When you come back with a name like GTO, you need something more," says one Detroit area sales manager who declined to be named.
Last week at a press event in Detroit, Kip Wasenko, director of design for GM's performance division, said, "You heard me talking about heritage. That's probably one of the things the GTO could probably use a little more of. But other people find it quiet and reserved because not everyone wants in-your-face, look-at-me kind of style."
Some dealers say the market for coupes is limited, and the sticker is high. The GTO starts at $33,495, including the destination charge. The 2004 Ford Mustang with a V-8 starts at $24,300.
The GTO lacks popular extras such as hood scoops, a sunroof and factory chrome wheels, some dealers say. Rumors have circulated that the 2005 model will have different styling and more horsepower, but GM declined to comment.
Uneven allocation to dealerships may be one factor in the slow sales start. One dealer, for example, says the Detroit area is flooded with GTOs. Hopson says the company has changed its allocation, shipping more vehicles to dealerships where the car is selling.
Some dealerships report brisk sales. Dennis Hadd, sales manager of McNamara Pontiac in Orlando, Fla., says, "All but a couple of our allocation are sold. A vast majority were pre-sold." McNamara has sold about 10 GTOs.
Last year the company said it planned to sell 18,000 GTOs. But Holden plans to assemble 16,000 GTOs this year in Australia. The GM subsidiary can produce up to 18,000 GTOs annually in coming years.
As of last week Holden had built 8,500 GTOs. At least 6,000 are in the United States, and another 1,000 are in transit, GM says.
05-24-2004, 12:06 PM
#211
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by gavriil
DETROIT - The Pontiac GTO, a pet project of General Motors product czar Robert Lutz, is off to a slow start.
Dealers say the GTO - touted as a halo car for Pontiac - suffers from bland styling, a high sticker price and no incentives.
"The car is more conservative looking than today's customer expects," says dealer Hugh Fiore, owner of Harbor Motors in Old Saybrook, Conn.
So far this year, Pontiac has sold just 2,451 units. Discounting seasonal differences, that amounts to an annualized rate of 7,300 units - well below Pontiac's 16,000-unit target. GM has a 168-day supply of GTOs, well above the 60-day supply that is considered ideal...
Some dealers say the market for coupes is limited, and the sticker is high. The GTO starts at $33,495, including the destination charge. The 2004 Ford Mustang with a V-8 starts at $24,300.
The GTO lacks popular extras such as hood scoops, a sunroof and factory chrome wheels, some dealers say. Rumors have circulated that the 2005 model will have different styling and more horsepower, but GM declined to comment.
[/COLOR]
DETROIT - The Pontiac GTO, a pet project of General Motors product czar Robert Lutz, is off to a slow start.
Dealers say the GTO - touted as a halo car for Pontiac - suffers from bland styling, a high sticker price and no incentives.
"The car is more conservative looking than today's customer expects," says dealer Hugh Fiore, owner of Harbor Motors in Old Saybrook, Conn.
So far this year, Pontiac has sold just 2,451 units. Discounting seasonal differences, that amounts to an annualized rate of 7,300 units - well below Pontiac's 16,000-unit target. GM has a 168-day supply of GTOs, well above the 60-day supply that is considered ideal...
Some dealers say the market for coupes is limited, and the sticker is high. The GTO starts at $33,495, including the destination charge. The 2004 Ford Mustang with a V-8 starts at $24,300.
The GTO lacks popular extras such as hood scoops, a sunroof and factory chrome wheels, some dealers say. Rumors have circulated that the 2005 model will have different styling and more horsepower, but GM declined to comment.
[/COLOR]
05-24-2004, 03:16 PM
#212
Pit Stop?
Originally posted by gavriil
Some dealerships report brisk sales. Dennis Hadd, sales manager of McNamara Pontiac in Orlando, Fla., says, "All but a couple of our allocation are sold. A vast majority were pre-sold." McNamara has sold about 10 GTOs.
Some dealerships report brisk sales. Dennis Hadd, sales manager of McNamara Pontiac in Orlando, Fla., says, "All but a couple of our allocation are sold. A vast majority were pre-sold." McNamara has sold about 10 GTOs.
That is all
05-24-2004, 04:21 PM
#215
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Originally posted by SpeedyV6
The new Chrysler 300 offers ~ 95% of the GTO's performance, better, more contemporary looks, and more luxury for roughly the same price. It will change the price/value/content equation for the whole segment. Cars like the GTO, the CTS - 6, the Lincoln LS V8, or the Acura TL now seem overpriced in comparison.
The new Chrysler 300 offers ~ 95% of the GTO's performance, better, more contemporary looks, and more luxury for roughly the same price. It will change the price/value/content equation for the whole segment. Cars like the GTO, the CTS - 6, the Lincoln LS V8, or the Acura TL now seem overpriced in comparison.
2. I think you're exagurating a little about the value comments. To get a good deal from the 300, it has to be ordered with either of the two available V6s. The 2.7 liter one makes the car feel super slow, the 3.5 just slow. The TL flies compared even to the 3.5 liter 300C and has other characteristics that the 300C does not (like its weight helps is feel more nimble, etc.). Dont get me wrong, the 300 IS a great deal! But, not that it makes the TL seem overprised. Come on...
05-24-2004, 05:01 PM
#216
Happy CL-S Pilot
just came from lookin up a new 300C HEMI, A deal at 36,000+ with no NAV... please give me a break! Maybe with NAV and 8,000 off with Rebates and Discount I may be interested but not at 38k!
I would buy first a Volvo 60R at that price!
I would buy first a Volvo 60R at that price!
05-24-2004, 05:06 PM
#217
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by gavriil
The TL flies compared even to the 3.5 liter 300C and has other characteristics that the 300C does not (like its weight helps is feel more nimble, etc.). Dont get me wrong, the 300 IS a great deal! But, not that it makes the TL seem overprised. Come on...
The TL flies compared even to the 3.5 liter 300C and has other characteristics that the 300C does not (like its weight helps is feel more nimble, etc.). Dont get me wrong, the 300 IS a great deal! But, not that it makes the TL seem overprised. Come on...
05-24-2004, 11:20 PM
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Originally posted by phil2
well the hemi v8 model pulled a 13.9 1/4 mile so it is faster than the tl, but as for the v6 model i dont think so
well the hemi v8 model pulled a 13.9 1/4 mile so it is faster than the tl, but as for the v6 model i dont think so
05-24-2004, 11:24 PM
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Originally posted by SpeedyV6
A hemi 300C should be faster than a TL. They're about the same price ~ $35K. The 6.3 sec 0 - 60 estimate seems pretty conservative to me.
A hemi 300C should be faster than a TL. They're about the same price ~ $35K. The 6.3 sec 0 - 60 estimate seems pretty conservative to me.
In any case, that's beside my point. As I said, the 300 is a good deal only with the V6 engines. The C starts at 33K and can reach 43K if optioned out. The TL is at 35K optioned out and will have more and better options. No comparison here...
05-25-2004, 12:30 AM
#221
TQ > MPG
Yes but I'd take the 300C if they were the same price and the 300 was AWD. You cant argue with nearly 400 ft lbs of tq and still mid 20's mpg. 
Its too bad they have completely abandoned manual transmissions.
Its too bad they have completely abandoned manual transmissions.
05-25-2004, 10:44 AM
#222
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Originally posted by jtkz13
Yes but I'd take the 300C if they were the same price and the 300 was AWD. You cant argue with nearly 400 ft lbs of tq and still mid 20's mpg.
Its too bad they have completely abandoned manual transmissions.
Yes but I'd take the 300C if they were the same price and the 300 was AWD. You cant argue with nearly 400 ft lbs of tq and still mid 20's mpg.
Its too bad they have completely abandoned manual transmissions.
05-25-2004, 11:02 AM
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I like this car a lot for what it is...not the way it looks. It is on the top of the list as replacement cars....but a sunroof and just the body kit from the Holden (minus the wing) would make the car a lot more attractive. I have been neurotically surfing ls1gto.com to see what is coming up...but no one seems to know. I will wait if the fix a few small things.
Another thing that really bothers me is this whole gas tank thing. How gay.
Another thing that really bothers me is this whole gas tank thing. How gay.
05-25-2004, 11:46 AM
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Car and Driver tested the HEMI 300C @ 5.3s 0-60 and 13.9s for 1/4-mile.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=1
Incidently, I've noticed this just about everywhere, but the 300"C" refers to the HEMI model only. On Chrysler's website they have 4 trim levels for the 300: 300 (2.7L V6), 300 Touring (3.5L V6), 300 Limited (3.5L V6), and 300C (5.7L V8).
BTW - Gav, where are you getting $43k for the optioned out C? I went on Chrysler's site and optioned one out for a little over $38k, and that included the options: Navigation, upgraded speakers and stereo package, power adjustable pedals, side curtain airbags, and HIDs.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=1
Incidently, I've noticed this just about everywhere, but the 300"C" refers to the HEMI model only. On Chrysler's website they have 4 trim levels for the 300: 300 (2.7L V6), 300 Touring (3.5L V6), 300 Limited (3.5L V6), and 300C (5.7L V8).
BTW - Gav, where are you getting $43k for the optioned out C? I went on Chrysler's site and optioned one out for a little over $38k, and that included the options: Navigation, upgraded speakers and stereo package, power adjustable pedals, side curtain airbags, and HIDs.
05-25-2004, 12:42 PM
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Originally posted by EdgarFanCLS
Car and Driver tested the HEMI 300C @ 5.3s 0-60 and 13.9s for 1/4-mile.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=1
Incidently, I've noticed this just about everywhere, but the 300"C" refers to the HEMI model only. On Chrysler's website they have 4 trim levels for the 300: 300 (2.7L V6), 300 Touring (3.5L V6), 300 Limited (3.5L V6), and 300C (5.7L V8).
BTW - Gav, where are you getting $43k for the optioned out C? I went on Chrysler's site and optioned one out for a little over $38k, and that included the options: Navigation, upgraded speakers and stereo package, power adjustable pedals, side curtain airbags, and HIDs.
Car and Driver tested the HEMI 300C @ 5.3s 0-60 and 13.9s for 1/4-mile.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=1
Incidently, I've noticed this just about everywhere, but the 300"C" refers to the HEMI model only. On Chrysler's website they have 4 trim levels for the 300: 300 (2.7L V6), 300 Touring (3.5L V6), 300 Limited (3.5L V6), and 300C (5.7L V8).
BTW - Gav, where are you getting $43k for the optioned out C? I went on Chrysler's site and optioned one out for a little over $38k, and that included the options: Navigation, upgraded speakers and stereo package, power adjustable pedals, side curtain airbags, and HIDs.
I thought, overall the TL with the manual, was about as quick as the 300C, but not really. The 300C is clearly quicker in acceleration.
THe $43K comes from here:
http://edmunds.com/new/2005/chrysler....1.1.Chrysler*
Not sure if you will get the exact thing I see from the above link but here are the results:
MSRP - Invoice - What Others Are Paying
$42,780 - $39,600 - $42,780
Breakdown:
National Base Price $32,370 $29,973 $32,370
Regional Adjustment
for Zip Code Change - - $0
Optional Equipment $9,785 $9,002 $9,785
AS6 Navigation and Sound Group 2 $2,130 $1,960 $2,130
REC AM/FM w/Integrated Display $1,895 $1,743 $1,895
REC AM/FM w/Integrated Display $1,595 $1,467 $1,595
GWA Power Sunroof $895 $823 $895
AD4 Protection Group 2 $840 $773 $840
LMP High Intensity Discharge Headlamps $650 $598 $650
ATL Sound Group 2 $535 $492 $535
CSY Walnut Wood Trim $400 $368 $400
RSA Sirius Satellite Radio $325 $299 $325
RSP U-Connect Hands-Free Communication $275 $253 $275
XAM Power Adjustable Pedals $175 $161 $175
ADE Cold Weather Group $40 $37 $40
AWS Smoker's Group $30 $28 $30
28T Quick Order Package 28T $0 $0 $0
05-25-2004, 12:56 PM
#226
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Edmunds' options list can be inaccurate. It allows you to pick options which are already included with other packages. I could go down that list and select every single thing on there, but that would result in multiple selections of the same option.
For example, take these 3 choices from the Edmunds list:
AS6 Navigation and Sound Group 2
REC AM/FM w/Integrated Display
ATL Sound Group 2
Everything in choice #1 there includes #2 and #3. The Edmunds list is blind to this fact, and lets you select them all.
Which brings me back to my previous post. Optioned out on Chryslers website, I hit around $38.5k loaded.
For example, take these 3 choices from the Edmunds list:
AS6 Navigation and Sound Group 2
REC AM/FM w/Integrated Display
ATL Sound Group 2
Everything in choice #1 there includes #2 and #3. The Edmunds list is blind to this fact, and lets you select them all.
Which brings me back to my previous post. Optioned out on Chryslers website, I hit around $38.5k loaded.
05-26-2004, 01:30 AM
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From this week's autoextremist.com
GM, Pontiac. K.C. Crain reported in this week's Automotive News, in a front page story, that the new Pontiac GTO isn't exactly setting the world on fire in terms of sales numbers. Projected to sell 16,000 units in the first year, the GTO's current selling rate has the Pontiac division on a pace to sell 7,300 units. GM currently has a 168-day supply of GTOs nationally, and at this time no incentives are planned. Is this news surprising? Not really. The sluggish GTO sales numbers have been apparent for many weeks now. The GTO was an effort by GM to get Pontiac back in the rear-wheel-drive, V-8 performance game, after the demise of the Firebird and a weak lineup of front-wheel-drive, pseudo-performance cars that didn't measure up left the division awash in mediocrity. Bob Lutz championed the idea, and it was a good one - on paper. Take the hottest car from GM's Australia affiliate - the Holden Monaro - make a few tweaks and bring it over here as the return of the fabled Pontiac GTO. Taking into consideration GM's "go fast" mantra, it was a brilliant way to shore-up Pontiac's tattered image quickly, without spending a ton of money. And the car itself is an excellent car, with outstanding power delivery from its 350HP V-8, excellent chassis manners, a gorgeous interior and a $33,495 sticker price. But there is one serious drawback with it too. The exterior styling is beyond bland, and what passes for a proper, understated performance look in Australia with the Monaro - conjures up nothing but long, drawn-out yawns over here when it's presented as the GTO. And therein lies the real problem. The new GTO is not just competing with the contemporary market, it's competing with the ghost of one of America's most celebrated muscle/performance cars. Not just one of them either - but the one that started it all. Arguably no car could have stood up to that kind of mythic image and cult-like following - let alone one that originated in Australia and was aimed at the European performance idiom. It's a harsh lesson for GM, however, and it's a painful reminder to them that it's not enough to just "go fast" these days. You have to figure out where you want to go and why first - and then you've got to figure out how you're going to get there. And you can't leave anything to chance that will be "fixed" in next year's model, either. In this, the most competitive auto market in history, the product has to be flawlessly executed right out of the box. Raiding GM's worldwide parts bin for the GTO wasn't a mistake on GM's part - far from it, in fact. But going ahead with a program in the interest of speed and thinking that the package itself would be too good to pass up for most hardcore enthusiasts - even though the looks of the car were less than ideal and a total disconnect with the brand image of one of the industry's legendary icons - was a crucial mistake. It does no good for GM to defend the look of the GTO or to somehow imply that there's nothing wrong with a Euro-look GTO, because that ship has sailed. The enthusiasts out in the real world just aren't buying that perspective. They wanted something more. And even though they can't necessarily articulate what the GTO should look like - the important thing to realize is that they know what's being presented to them isn't it. GM is tweaking the GTO in '05, and it's said to be better, but in the meantime GM has to regroup, get aggressive with the pricing - and get down to defining what a real GTO should look like for the 21st century.
GM, Chevrolet. It's "Lesson Week" for GM, apparently. Fresh off the slow-selling GTO story, there's trouble with the leading show horse of Chevrolet's "American Revolution." Though targeted for a lower volume than the Pontiac GTO, the Chevrolet SSR hot-rod retro truck is not selling very well at all. Plagued by production delays early on, the SSR suffers from a different problem than the GTO. Oh, it certainly looks and sounds the part, alright, but when you stand on the gas - it doesn't deliver. It's overweight and underpowered, and for an alleged icon-in-training, that's a less-than-ideal combination. In short, the SSR is the automotive equivalent of "All Hat, No Cattle." There's a big dose of extra horsepower on the way for the SSR in '05, but in the meantime dealers are staring out the window at them wondering what the hell happened. Hopefully, GM learned another lesson with the SSR - and that is that there's a big difference between a drop-dead gorgeous concept and a production execution that actually delivers on what's promised. Showing an SSR doing 180s in a fancy, big-buck TV commercial is one thing, but when the reality of the driving experience doesn't match the hype - all you're left with is yet another blown opportunity. And no car company can afford too many of those in this day and age.
GM, Pontiac. K.C. Crain reported in this week's Automotive News, in a front page story, that the new Pontiac GTO isn't exactly setting the world on fire in terms of sales numbers. Projected to sell 16,000 units in the first year, the GTO's current selling rate has the Pontiac division on a pace to sell 7,300 units. GM currently has a 168-day supply of GTOs nationally, and at this time no incentives are planned. Is this news surprising? Not really. The sluggish GTO sales numbers have been apparent for many weeks now. The GTO was an effort by GM to get Pontiac back in the rear-wheel-drive, V-8 performance game, after the demise of the Firebird and a weak lineup of front-wheel-drive, pseudo-performance cars that didn't measure up left the division awash in mediocrity. Bob Lutz championed the idea, and it was a good one - on paper. Take the hottest car from GM's Australia affiliate - the Holden Monaro - make a few tweaks and bring it over here as the return of the fabled Pontiac GTO. Taking into consideration GM's "go fast" mantra, it was a brilliant way to shore-up Pontiac's tattered image quickly, without spending a ton of money. And the car itself is an excellent car, with outstanding power delivery from its 350HP V-8, excellent chassis manners, a gorgeous interior and a $33,495 sticker price. But there is one serious drawback with it too. The exterior styling is beyond bland, and what passes for a proper, understated performance look in Australia with the Monaro - conjures up nothing but long, drawn-out yawns over here when it's presented as the GTO. And therein lies the real problem. The new GTO is not just competing with the contemporary market, it's competing with the ghost of one of America's most celebrated muscle/performance cars. Not just one of them either - but the one that started it all. Arguably no car could have stood up to that kind of mythic image and cult-like following - let alone one that originated in Australia and was aimed at the European performance idiom. It's a harsh lesson for GM, however, and it's a painful reminder to them that it's not enough to just "go fast" these days. You have to figure out where you want to go and why first - and then you've got to figure out how you're going to get there. And you can't leave anything to chance that will be "fixed" in next year's model, either. In this, the most competitive auto market in history, the product has to be flawlessly executed right out of the box. Raiding GM's worldwide parts bin for the GTO wasn't a mistake on GM's part - far from it, in fact. But going ahead with a program in the interest of speed and thinking that the package itself would be too good to pass up for most hardcore enthusiasts - even though the looks of the car were less than ideal and a total disconnect with the brand image of one of the industry's legendary icons - was a crucial mistake. It does no good for GM to defend the look of the GTO or to somehow imply that there's nothing wrong with a Euro-look GTO, because that ship has sailed. The enthusiasts out in the real world just aren't buying that perspective. They wanted something more. And even though they can't necessarily articulate what the GTO should look like - the important thing to realize is that they know what's being presented to them isn't it. GM is tweaking the GTO in '05, and it's said to be better, but in the meantime GM has to regroup, get aggressive with the pricing - and get down to defining what a real GTO should look like for the 21st century.
GM, Chevrolet. It's "Lesson Week" for GM, apparently. Fresh off the slow-selling GTO story, there's trouble with the leading show horse of Chevrolet's "American Revolution." Though targeted for a lower volume than the Pontiac GTO, the Chevrolet SSR hot-rod retro truck is not selling very well at all. Plagued by production delays early on, the SSR suffers from a different problem than the GTO. Oh, it certainly looks and sounds the part, alright, but when you stand on the gas - it doesn't deliver. It's overweight and underpowered, and for an alleged icon-in-training, that's a less-than-ideal combination. In short, the SSR is the automotive equivalent of "All Hat, No Cattle." There's a big dose of extra horsepower on the way for the SSR in '05, but in the meantime dealers are staring out the window at them wondering what the hell happened. Hopefully, GM learned another lesson with the SSR - and that is that there's a big difference between a drop-dead gorgeous concept and a production execution that actually delivers on what's promised. Showing an SSR doing 180s in a fancy, big-buck TV commercial is one thing, but when the reality of the driving experience doesn't match the hype - all you're left with is yet another blown opportunity. And no car company can afford too many of those in this day and age.
05-26-2004, 12:25 PM
#228
Fahrvergnügen'd
Originally posted by Nashua_Night_Hawk
just came from lookin up a new 300C HEMI, A deal at 36,000+ with no NAV... please give me a break! Maybe with NAV and 8,000 off with Rebates and Discount I may be interested but not at 38k!
I would buy first a Volvo 60R at that price!
just came from lookin up a new 300C HEMI, A deal at 36,000+ with no NAV... please give me a break! Maybe with NAV and 8,000 off with Rebates and Discount I may be interested but not at 38k!
I would buy first a Volvo 60R at that price!
$38k does sound like a lot until you realize that an E320 is close to $52k with those options and an E500 is $62k
If the 300C is built well and reliable, I don't think $38k is too much to pay.
05-26-2004, 01:58 PM
#229
still a Masshole
Yeah and I'll take a 300 hp AWD TL over it with/without the 400 ft/lbs of torque. Oh and that AWD will add more weight to the car.
Oh and if you are comparing the 6.3/13.9 of the hemi 300 then the TL is doing pretty damn well at 6.1/14.4 at a much discounted price compared to the 300.
Oh and if you are comparing the 6.3/13.9 of the hemi 300 then the TL is doing pretty damn well at 6.1/14.4 at a much discounted price compared to the 300.
Originally posted by jtkz13
Yes but I'd take the 300C if they were the same price and the 300 was AWD. You cant argue with nearly 400 ft lbs of tq and still mid 20's mpg.
Its too bad they have completely abandoned manual transmissions.
Yes but I'd take the 300C if they were the same price and the 300 was AWD. You cant argue with nearly 400 ft lbs of tq and still mid 20's mpg.
Its too bad they have completely abandoned manual transmissions.
05-26-2004, 07:34 PM
#232
Suzuka Master
Originally posted by ferizzo
...Oh and if you are comparing the 6.3/13.9 of the hemi 300 then the TL is doing pretty damn well at 6.1/14.4 at a much discounted price compared to the 300.
...Oh and if you are comparing the 6.3/13.9 of the hemi 300 then the TL is doing pretty damn well at 6.1/14.4 at a much discounted price compared to the 300.
06-05-2004, 02:55 PM
#233
Dromaeosaurs/Velociraptor
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Leander, TX
Age: 46
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Anyone watched the movies 'Last Ride' with the new GTO..the sup'd up red one looks hot....hmm...i wonder what this car will be like in about 2 years...I'll be ready to purchase another car then.
06-09-2004, 05:48 AM
#235
Burning Brakes
Official 2005 Info
What’s new for 2005
LS2 6.0L engine replaces LS1
400 horsepower (295 kw)
395 lb.-ft. of torque (546 Nm)
Available hood with twin air scoops
Revised rear fascia incorporating outlets for new split dual exhaust system
Polished exhaust outlet tips
Larger brake rotors and calipers
Red-painted calipers with GTO logo on front caliper
Driver foot rest
Two new colors: blue and grey
Model Lineup
Engine Transmissions
6.0L V-8
6-spd man
(Tremec T56)
4-spd auto
(Hydra-Matic 4L60-E)
GTO
s
o
s
Key:
Standard
s
Optional
o
2005 PONTIAC GTO: THE NEW GOAT GETS MORE MUSCLE
GTO – the original muscle car – was re-introduced last year and returns with more power and style for 2005. A new LS2 6.0L V-8 engine replaces the LS1 5.7L engine, bringing with it an increase in horsepower and torque.
The ’05 GTO packs 400 horsepower (295 kw) – up from 350 horses (261 kw) – and 395 lb.-ft. of torque (546 Nm), up from 365 lb.-ft. (495 Nm). Transmission choices are the same as the ’04 model’s: The Hydra-Matic 4L60-E four-speed automatic is standard and the Tremec six-speed manual is optional. GTO’s more powerful engine should lower the 0-60 time to less than 5 seconds.
Enthusiasts will immediately spot the brawnier ’05 GTO, thanks to new badging and a revised rear fascia that incorporates a new dual-exhaust system – it splits the GTO’s two outlets, routing them to opposite sides of the rear fascia. The exhaust tips are polished for a more refined appearance.
Also available is a new hood design incorporating a pair of stylish air scoops. The scoops draw fresh air in to the GTO’s engine compartment.
The badges identifying the ’05 GTO’s bigger V-8 include a “6.0” badge on the trunk lid and revised “GTO” fender badges, which now incorporate “6.0 Litre” designations. The original 1964 GTO also wore “6.0 Litre” fender badges, but at a time when almost every other American manufacturer referenced engine size in cubic inches.
Along with the GTO’s power increase comes improved braking performance from larger brake rotors, calipers and pads. The calipers are painted red and the front calipers feature the GTO logo.
Additional changes to the ’05 GTO include two new colors (blue and grey), as well as driver foot rest. A line of regular production accessories (RPAs) based on the 2004 GTO Performance Plus SEMA concept vehicle is scheduled for start-of-production availability. The accessories include a tall rear spoiler, front and rear fascia extensions, rocker molding extensions and grille inserts. As part of GM’s RPA program, the accessories can be ordered and installed on the vehicle prior to delivery.
LS2 details
Compared to the Gen III-based LS1, the 2005 GTO’s LS2 V-8 incorporates several significant changes to help improve performance. The block is an all-new casting with cylinder bores measuring 4.00 inches (101.6 mm) in diameter. The cylinder heads and camshaft are revised, too, to deliver the airflow necessary to complement the engine’s larger displacement. Other changes include:
New aluminum block casting with revised oil galleries and provisions for external knock sensors – external sensors improve serviceability
Camshaft lift increased to take advantage of increased cylinder head flow
Camshaft sensor relocated from the rear of the block to the front of the block provides room for new oil galleries
Flat-top piston design with lower ring tension reduces friction
Piston floating wrist pins help quiet the engine
More efficient ignition coils require less energy to provide a comparable spark
Compression raised to 10.9:1
Larger, 90-mm single-blade throttle body
Reduced-mass water pump design with improved sealing capability
Engine “redline” raised to 6500 rpm
Revised and more powerful engine controller incorporates all electronic throttle control functions
LS2 6.0L engine replaces LS1
400 horsepower (295 kw)
395 lb.-ft. of torque (546 Nm)
Available hood with twin air scoops
Revised rear fascia incorporating outlets for new split dual exhaust system
Polished exhaust outlet tips
Larger brake rotors and calipers
Red-painted calipers with GTO logo on front caliper
Driver foot rest
Two new colors: blue and grey
Model Lineup
Engine Transmissions
6.0L V-8
6-spd man
(Tremec T56)
4-spd auto
(Hydra-Matic 4L60-E)
GTO
s
o
s
Key:
Standard
s
Optional
o
2005 PONTIAC GTO: THE NEW GOAT GETS MORE MUSCLE
GTO – the original muscle car – was re-introduced last year and returns with more power and style for 2005. A new LS2 6.0L V-8 engine replaces the LS1 5.7L engine, bringing with it an increase in horsepower and torque.
The ’05 GTO packs 400 horsepower (295 kw) – up from 350 horses (261 kw) – and 395 lb.-ft. of torque (546 Nm), up from 365 lb.-ft. (495 Nm). Transmission choices are the same as the ’04 model’s: The Hydra-Matic 4L60-E four-speed automatic is standard and the Tremec six-speed manual is optional. GTO’s more powerful engine should lower the 0-60 time to less than 5 seconds.
Enthusiasts will immediately spot the brawnier ’05 GTO, thanks to new badging and a revised rear fascia that incorporates a new dual-exhaust system – it splits the GTO’s two outlets, routing them to opposite sides of the rear fascia. The exhaust tips are polished for a more refined appearance.
Also available is a new hood design incorporating a pair of stylish air scoops. The scoops draw fresh air in to the GTO’s engine compartment.
The badges identifying the ’05 GTO’s bigger V-8 include a “6.0” badge on the trunk lid and revised “GTO” fender badges, which now incorporate “6.0 Litre” designations. The original 1964 GTO also wore “6.0 Litre” fender badges, but at a time when almost every other American manufacturer referenced engine size in cubic inches.
Along with the GTO’s power increase comes improved braking performance from larger brake rotors, calipers and pads. The calipers are painted red and the front calipers feature the GTO logo.
Additional changes to the ’05 GTO include two new colors (blue and grey), as well as driver foot rest. A line of regular production accessories (RPAs) based on the 2004 GTO Performance Plus SEMA concept vehicle is scheduled for start-of-production availability. The accessories include a tall rear spoiler, front and rear fascia extensions, rocker molding extensions and grille inserts. As part of GM’s RPA program, the accessories can be ordered and installed on the vehicle prior to delivery.
LS2 details
Compared to the Gen III-based LS1, the 2005 GTO’s LS2 V-8 incorporates several significant changes to help improve performance. The block is an all-new casting with cylinder bores measuring 4.00 inches (101.6 mm) in diameter. The cylinder heads and camshaft are revised, too, to deliver the airflow necessary to complement the engine’s larger displacement. Other changes include:
New aluminum block casting with revised oil galleries and provisions for external knock sensors – external sensors improve serviceability
Camshaft lift increased to take advantage of increased cylinder head flow
Camshaft sensor relocated from the rear of the block to the front of the block provides room for new oil galleries
Flat-top piston design with lower ring tension reduces friction
Piston floating wrist pins help quiet the engine
More efficient ignition coils require less energy to provide a comparable spark
Compression raised to 10.9:1
Larger, 90-mm single-blade throttle body
Reduced-mass water pump design with improved sealing capability
Engine “redline” raised to 6500 rpm
Revised and more powerful engine controller incorporates all electronic throttle control functions
06-09-2004, 10:04 AM
#237
The hair says it all
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Manhattan, NYC
Age: 38
Posts: 7,566
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the hp race in full swing...
im lovin it
if the hemi can get mid 20's mpg, what does the ls1 get?
also, i dont think i would actually hit that 20 mpg, because i would push the engine so often
im lovin it
if the hemi can get mid 20's mpg, what does the ls1 get?
also, i dont think i would actually hit that 20 mpg, because i would push the engine so often
06-09-2004, 10:18 AM
#238
Fahrvergnügen'd
Originally Posted by Python2121
the hp race in full swing...
im lovin it
if the hemi can get mid 20's mpg, what does the ls1 get?
also, i dont think i would actually hit that 20 mpg, because i would push the engine so often
im lovin it
if the hemi can get mid 20's mpg, what does the ls1 get?
also, i dont think i would actually hit that 20 mpg, because i would push the engine so often
Viva 6th gear on the manual tranny