dom

So Honda does'nt have the time to redesign the NSX or make a RWD platform, but they have the time and I guess see the profitability in making planes.

Someone please explain this to me.

leftride

iTrader: (1)

ummm.....maybe cause a plane would be faster than an nsx???

or maybe they are looking at putting that engine in the nsx!!!

or maybe the tsx

or maybe i'm

acuracxs

It is not about time, but money. Designing another rear wheel drive platform will not justify the ROI. The jet engine is an untapped market for Honda and will generate profits, based on their exoertise in making high powered fueled efficient engines, whether it is automobile, motorcycle, lawnmowers, jets kis, jet planes.

dom

I don't know, Nissan has come in designed a RWD platform or two and seem to be doing pretty well wth profits and market share. Honda refuses to make a RWD platform and leave the NSX as is for 13 years so they can make a Plane. What do I know but I don't think they have their priorities quite right.

Last I heard Bombardier layed off thousands here in Canada and the old Mcdonald Douglas Plant (Boeing afterward) near the airport here in Toronto was shut down, so how exactly is the plane market lucrative in a industry where more and more Airlines seem to be in financial trouble.

Then again, the supercar market seems to be growing meaning there are obviously enough rich individuals who can afford these million dollar cars. Maybe thats the market Honda's aiming at. Rich individuals with nothing else to do with their money. Pretty small market though.

dom

As much as I think they could have spent their money elsewhere, at least they did it right. Best fuel consumption in the Business and 30% more Cabin space than the competition. Its definently a Honda.

AcuraFan

Honda is a very large corporation that has it's hands in many many things. Just because they're building airplanes does not mean they aren't also building new cars. Whatever field they venture into, they always make the best products there.
I mean they've got small engines, ATVs, Motorcycles, cars, etc...why not planes too? You know the planes will be some of the best in the business.
But you're saying they should stop developing these technologies because you think their low-volume performance car is getting old? I think they have the capacity to develop both and it sounds like they are...the new NSX is coming...

acuracxs

Nissan did the RWD thing because they have the G35/350Z share the same platform, it is cost effective for them. Where as the NSX is on its own platform, the S2000 is on its platform. The other honda FWD is doing quite well so why introduce another RWD. Most of the profit is in light trucks and SUV aka odyssey/pilot/mdx


I guess we will have to wait and see if their jet engines will make money.

dom

What are Honda's two greatest shortcomings?

IMO
1. Lack of a V8
2. Lack of a RWD sedan platform

You can argue that Honda does'nt believe in a V8 because of fuel comsumption, emissions etc so thats why there is'nt one but you said it yourself they excel at everything they do and I'm sure developing a V8 would be no different.

There should be no excuse as to why they don't have a RWD sedan. Nissan has proved that the market for a RWD sedan is there and the fact that Cadillac and even Chrysler is moving to RWD is all the proof I need.

The money they used to develop this jet could have been used to design a new V8, NSX, RL, RWD TL, TSX, Pickup, new lawnmowers and snowblowerws etc and they still would have had millions left over.

They are a car company first and foremost so they should act like one.

Just my

bowersan

'Dude, my TSX is like SOOO WEAK- we shud like add a huge spoiler, paint the hood black, attach tonso f blue lights, and attach those jet enginez and stuff to my car, make it fly...'

Wait, wait, im beggining to sound like some other people on this site.

J.

dom

Who you talkin bout J?


Imagine the TSX with 757 kgf (1,670 lbf) of take-off thrust

d-rock

actually you got it wrong. honda isn't a car company first and foremost. they are a motor company they produce motors. but a large part is going into cars. they make motors for cars, motorcycles, ATVs, jet skis, lawnmotors, generators, and now planes

dom

I knew somebody would bring that up and thanks for the lesson. Honda may claim to be a motor company first and foremost but ask someone on the street what they think of Honda and see if they say "I love them Honda Lawnmower's" or "How about that NSX" Fact is most people associate Honda with Cars and Motorcycles not with small engines and generators. All I am saying is that IMO there was no need for them to begin developing an airplane, their money would have been more wisely spent making a RWD platform and a V8 engine.
I find it unbelievable that the NSX has remained relatively unchanged for some 13 years. Who does Honda think they are, Lotus?

That's all I'm saying, wheather I'm right or wrong is TBD.

And don't forget they make outboards for boats too

AcuraFan

No doubt a Honda V8 would be the best on the market. But that's not the type of engine they make. That goes against their principals...I'm sorry they aren't making any for you but it's their choice as a corporation, not yours.

Nissan built a RWD sports car platform and then build some sedans off that same platform to save money. They needed to take a lot of chances because they had a lot of catching up to do. I don't think Honda has to take those chances. Their FWD platforms sell very well...it wouldn't be cost effective for them change the platform because a few enthusiests want RWD.

AcuraFan

Growing up, Honda small engines were my only exposure to Honda products. My love and respect for Honda cars grew almost entirely out of my love for their stellar small engines. Whenever I had to pull a Briggs or a Techumseh out of the warehouse after sitting all winter, I would cringe..."I'm gonna pull my arm off trying to get this thing started." But I always knew, whenever I'd pull a Honda out that's been hibernating all winter, it would be running within 2 pulls...every time. That's one quality small engine company. And I'm glad they make cars too.

What I'm getting at is that Honda is an engine company...just like the claim to be. You're an auto enthusiast not a portable generator enthusiast...that's why you think Honda is really about cars. But just because you percieve a company in a certain way doesn't mean that's what the company is or should be. I believe Honda knows better than you how to use their money. If they think they will get a better return developing jet engines than they would developing $90,000 low volume performance cars, then I'm going to trust them on it.

However, like I said, they're still redesigning the NSX...so I don't see where your beef is anyway.

acuracxs

We hear what you are saying, but the NSX is a very welled engineered machine, well balanceed, fast is exotic. Even though it is 13 years old it can hang with the best of them. So it does not matter if it 13 years old it can still deliver. What is your point
on Lotus ?

As for the money spent on jet engines is to TBD, as you stated.

dom

My beef is it has taken them 13 years to even begin to consider redesiging the NSX. By today's standards thats a lifetime. And how long has that godawful RL been around relatively unchanged. That tells me they've spent their money elsewhere.

And I'm not asking them to start selling 90,000 sports cars, they decided to build the NSX not me, so either keep it up do date or discontinue it. Although I guess its somehow remained profitable after all these years. I'm asking them to keep up with the Joneses and make a RWD platform and a V8 engines like every other car manufactuer out there. I would'nt be one of the customers to buy a V8 or a RWD car but sales of other companies have proven it can be profitable.

And Honda is an enthusiast company, lets not forget the Type R's, Preludes, Integra's, CRX's and S2000's, they have always catered to the enthusiast market and should be doing so now with a RWD platform.

And I still beleive that Honda is a Car company to 75% of the population and should act like it.

And as I've said all along, my views are my opinions of what I think Honda should do and should be treated as such.

dom

My point with Lotus is that the Esprit has'nt been redesigned since the 70's and the NSX practically since the late 80's. Not many car companies do that anymore.

need4spd_RENAMED

Just to let you know, I understood your Lotus point. The car is still sweet at what ever age it is!

AcuraFan

So a company should rethink it's corporate structure because a majority of the population perceives it a certain way? That's silly.

To a majority of the population, Phillip-Morris is a tobacco corporation. Nevermind that it's one of the largest food companies in the world...they should refocus their corporation because most people think their business is cigarettes?

Colin

Well........... Uh...........at least the drive is in the rear.

dom

When did I suggest Honda refocus anything?? I never for one minute suggested Honda stop buidling small engines, generators or anything else for that matter. I suggested they not venture into the Airplane business and instead put that money towards building more/better cars. Don't put words in my mouth.

I wonder what percentage of Honda's sales/profits come from the Automobile/Motorcycle division vs the small engine divison.
My guess would be 75 - 25, so thats my point, they should put more focus on their most important division(s) and forget about building planes.

AcuraFan

Well, you seem to be saying Honda should focus more on cars than their other projects (like airplanes). I may be wrong but that's how it sounds to me.

You're guess? lol I suggest you find some real numbers to back your argument. I'm not saying your wrong just that you can't pull numbers out of your a$$ and then use them in an argument.

But to me, the percentage isn't all that important. Small engines are obviously profitable for Honda and I think our world is a better place because they have put so much money and effort into them. And I think the same could be said about diversifying into the airplane realm. I think expansion is generally a positive thing.

I appreciate the fact that the world has a Honda powered pressure washer...I could care less if the world has a RWD Honda sedan...and I think the public as a whole could care less about such a sedan as well. My

phile

In one of the articles about this Honda jet, I read that Mr. Honda wanted to get into the aviation business long before the NSX was even on Honda's list of things to do. I'm sure they've been researching this for much longer than we think. So it's not like they delayed research for the NSX or V8 or RWD to focus on the jet.

gilboman

bwahahaha... classic quote " Honda and I think our world is a better place because they have put so much money and effort into them."

And I think the same could be said about diversifying into the airplane realm. I think expansion is generally a positive thing.

waiting for a Honda supermarket comming soon?

gilboman

um...they've been selling off their food business for a while now to "refocus" on their core business of tobacco.. there is a "fact" for you

raythatiknow

cool jet.

group buy, anyone?

dom

Like I said, its a guess. And the numbers would be important because I think a company should put more focus and emphasis on their strenghs and slowly branch out from there. Remember, my argumnet here is that I think Honda should have diversified their vehilcle line further before undertaking such a huge project.

And I really have to disagree about having a RWD sedan. I think its vitally important for Honda, more so now than ever before.

I'll see what I can do on thsoe numbers but I doubt I'll find anything.

dom

Maybe it was a personal goal of Mr.Honda thats now being followed through on.

The article does state that this project began back in 99. As for wheather the NSX, RL and a V8 were delayed because of the jet, I guess we'll never know. But that fact that the NSX and RL have remained unchanged for this long says something. Maybe they did'nt have the money because it was tied up in planes and snowblower development or maybe they just did'nt feel the need to redesign the cars Either way it was a bad move IMO.

DEVO

Asimo... nuf said.

dom

So are you for or against Robot and plane development?

AcuraFan

Oh sure...take my quote out of context!

acuracxs

Why change a good thing the NSX, it lasted 13 years and still hang with the big boys. Now the RL is a different story it needs major updating. As much as I like to see Honda produce a V8. I still think honda does not need V8 while their V6 is good enough. I rather have front wheel drive or AWD wheel drive then rear wheel drive. The rear wheel/V8 combo is saturated, everybody is making it. So it makes economic, or safer to stay with v6/front and possibly AWD. Personally I like the RL to be V6/AWD with 300 plus horses in a 3.5 v6.

DEVO

domn,

no i'm not. I'm just pointing out that they spend money in lots of areas which IMO is good for the company as a whole. The more money the company makes the more it can spend on R&D, the better the R&D, the better the RWD platform will be, the better the V8 will be... it will happen... just give it time.

TSX Hokie

I don't think alot of you recognize how lucrative the small gas turbine business is shaping up to be. Most of these people in their 20s that got rich off the dotcom thing don't want sports cars; they want 6-16 seat twin turbofan aircraft. 200 MPH in a Ferrari seems tame when you can go Mach 0.9 in your jet (legally, too).

The 'Big 3' aircraft engine companies (GE, Pratt&Whitney, and Rolls-Royce) are happy to sell their engines at a loss; they make their money off the service contracts and replacement parts. By contrast, Honda makes very little money off the service of its automobiles (since the dealers are the only ones to profit from service labor, and most of their replacement parts make them no money because they were replaced under warranty).

I think joining the small gas turbine market is a good move for Honda. They should make more profit, which they may use for more automotive research. Nobody will care about the aging NSX or lack of RWD platforms when Honda leverages their gas turbine profit to unleash a super-fast, AWD, fuel cell-powered sports sedan in like a decade.

dom

I suggested in either this thread or the other one that since Super Exoctic and Super expensive sports cars seem to be the craze today and are apparenetly selling well, thats who Honda is aiming this plane at. Rich individulals with lots of $$$ to burn. The same people who snap up these sports cars.

We'll see I guess.

BTW, when GM bought out Saab, all they bought was the Automotive side of things. Not sure if they simply were'nt interested in the Aviation side or if Saab fought hard enough to keep that independant.

dom

Some more info. Can't remember who mentioned it but this was indeed a dream of Soichiro Honda. And it looks like or at least Honda thinks this can be very profitable with small aircraft engine market in the US requiring 10,000 units a year. And I think they'll only be manufacturing the engines and not the entire plane, or at least not yet.

It looks like Toyota's jumping in as well.


TOKYO, Dec 16 (Reuters) - Japanese auto maker Honda Motor Co (Tokyo:7267.T - News) said on Tuesday it had succeeded in test-flying a small business jet in the United States, taking a step towards its long-term goal of entering the aircraft business.

The six-seat HondaJet is the world's first business jet made completely by an auto maker, and is powered by a lightweight, low-emission turbine engine that Honda has been developing since 1999.

Rival Toyota Motor Corp (Tokyo:7203.T - News), Japan's biggest auto maker, also grabbed headlines last year by making its first test run of a prototype aircraft, but the plane's engine came from a different manufacturer.

Developing aircraft has been one of Honda's goals for the past four decades, and a dream held by its late, legendary founder Soichiro Honda. The auto maker had been aiming to complete initial test flights by December 17, the centennial of the Wright brothers' first sustained, controlled flight.

"We've taken the first step towards our future dream of turning this into a business," a Honda spokesman said, adding it had no concrete plans for commercialisation yet.

Honda, which started off building motorcycles and began researching small business jets in 1986, said the HondaJet offered at least 40 percent better fuel efficiency and more cabin space than existing jets of the same class.

The 12.5-metre (41-foot) long jet has a flight range of 2,037 kilometres (1,100 nm), and can cruise at a maximum speed of 778 km/h, or 420 knots. It can seat up to six, including the pilot.

Earlier this year, Honda announced separate plans to look into the possibility of selling a next-generation piston aviation engine that it has been developing since 2000, with partner Teledyne Continental Motors Inc, a unit of U.S. electronic components maker Teledyne Technologies Inc (NYSE:TDY - News).

Entry into the aviation business could present big opportunities for Honda, which says its piston aviation engine is superior to those currently available, in terms of weight, fuel efficiency, power output and emissions.

The U.S. small aircraft market is the biggest in the world, with demand for engines for such aircraft estimated at 10,000 units a year.

Colin

I was talking to our rep, and he said the turbine engine project has been going on for over a decade. He did not know if the airframe project was new or also ongoing.

The delay in the NSX and RL was mostly due to a "disagreement" on the direction of the new cars. Honda Motor Co. wanted to make a car to chase Ferrari, high tech, composite/aluminum construction and around $120,000+. American Honda wanted a "Corvette Fighter" in the $50-60K range.

The RL faced a similar but different situation. American Honda wanted a V-8 RWD and Honda Motor Co. wanted to build V-6 FWD. To cut costs on the new RL, it was hoped that some of the developent costs could be shared between the two cars. Next September, we'll see who "won the battle." Wouldn't it be funny to see a compromise car? V-6/Hybrid RWD? That's gotta make everyone happy!

gonova

That article is a little confusing to me. It starts off talking about how Honda wants to sell small business jets, but then ends the article talking about selling engines. The latter makes more sense, IMO, as Honda is a recognized leader in engine technology and wouldn't have to start from scratch to build a brand. A lineup of small turbine and piston engines would be great for the company.

That said, those stats for the plane are very impressive. That thing could take off and land anywhere and post some impressive numbers in between. Do we have any projected cost numbers? I'm guessing around $2M on the price tag.

dom

Interesting, thanks for the info Colin. Well we know the new RL will not be FWD, that much has been confirmed.

I can see how American Honda would agrue with Honda Inc. US buyers want RWD V8's while Honda does'nt believe in them. Must be pretty frustrating to be the CEO of American Honda.

"I want a RWD TL and a V6 in the TSX"

"No your getting the Accord platform and a 4 banger, take it or leave it"

TSX Hokie

Saab supplies the fighter jets for quite a few European countries. I wouldn't be surprised if some of these sales agreements had clauses that stated the agreement was only valid as long as Saab Aircraft was a European-held company.

...or the Swedish Air Force said "No f*cking way we will buy fighter jets from the people who make the Pontiac Aztek."