Nissan makes enthusiast vehicles....if you're willing to pay or sacrifice practicality.

They have no serious sport sedan anymore, and the Sentra SE-R absolutely SUCKS. I drove the Spec-V when they first came out and it's seriously junky, from the shifter to the engine refinement to the interior....even the handling had too much roll to characterize it as truly good.

In fact, their only good sporting product consists of the 370Z, GT-R, annnnnd....that's it? There's no Altima manual or SE-R (a G37 would cost another 5K+ more and would have less room). The Maxima is no "enthusiast" car anymore.

I could go on but while I agree with you that Nissan caters more to enthusiasts than Honda by far, even their effort is dwindling.

Freaking Toyota builds a sport model Camry....

 

You're spot on correct. The Altima with any engine is now CVT only for 2010. This does not include the coupe, though.

I wouldn't be surprised if the next Si had some form of IMA or something.

 

I drove a 2010 4cyl Altima, and I was rather impressed. Not the highest-quality interior, but I liked the CVT. Much better than my gear-hunting close-ratio.

And putting IMA in an Si would be a complete slap in the face of all Honda enthusiasts and I think would warrant the torching of Honda headquarters.

 

Soooo, this leaves us with Hyundai, as far as Asian cars are concerned. Gen coupe/Sonata 2.0T/Gen sedan V8.....

 

Can't forget about Equus!

Not enthusiast as in sporting but many enthusiasts love big comfy luxury barges. I am one of those many.

But I think people talk as if the Japanese can't come back. Honda and Toyota could both start turning out some great new cars. The 2012 Camry will be a big test to that, and the 2013 Accord for Honda.

 

True. But, based on the Honda "speech", the picture doesn't look good. What evidence is there that Toyota will change it's ways, and produce something exciting? The LFA? LOL!
How can Hyundai see things so clearly, offering exciting new engines/technologies, in appealing packages, while Hondyota seemingly have lost their way? How quickly the tables have turned.

My 3G TL has never looked better. I'm surprised the market value of 3G's hasn't gone up. I'll seriously look at Hyundai and several domestics when it comes time to get a new car. Germans? Still not sold on their reliability.

 

Well in Toyota's defense they do have the FT-86 coming at some point with rumored companions and they're adding more sportish models like the Sienna. Better than just taking away like they were doing a while ago, I guess.

Toyota builds enthusiastic products that I'd love to own, but they're not sold here. The Crown Athlete, the Mark X Supercharged, the Aurion TRD....

 

Sad thing is, this speech has some truth. We're a select group of enthusiasts. We care about power, handling, and fun within the realm of waged income.

Unfortunately, we have to share our cars' designs with other bimbos that couldn't tell the difference between a shock absorber and a piston. All they want is a nice stereo, comfy seats, and fuel economy, at the expense of everything else. They far outweigh us, and as such, car companies cater to them. Then they get criticized by the only people who give enough of a flying crap to actually complain, in other words, the enthusiasts.

These enthusiasts tell the company "No, you're stupid, make fast and cool cars that are good all around". Then they do. Then magic marketing dude walks in and says "'fast and cool cars that are good all around' aren't making enough money for us. Let's go back to miserably boring, slow, heavyass cars with skimpy tires so we can brag about fuel economy and make more money." And so goes the cycle.

This newer, enthusiast-oriented Toyota won't last long. Sienna SE sales aren't that high, FT-86 won't last more than six years, and Toyota will go back to doing what it does best and make boring cars.

 

I'm confused on this one. A sporty Sienna?

Regarding the FT-86:
http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-ft-86.html

 

To an extend you're right. But didn't the Civic get passed up by the Mazda 3 in sales for Canada? Buyers citing its sportier appeal aren't all enthusiasts. We see this elsewhere in the industry.

Sport Toyota may or may not die....I wouldn't even call it "sport" right now. LOL. Sportiness doesn't always go with volume, and that's why sport models aren't volume sellers, but that doesn't mean they aren't successful. Many of them bring in new customers from other brands or markets. And then there ARE some that are volume, like the very successful Camry SE trim.

 

Well like I said above, sporting is relative. It's certainly a sport model though. That much is for sure.

The FT-86 might be pushed back but it's still supposed to come. If it doesn't no matter; that wasn't my point.

Update: That appears to just have been a report, a rumor. We saw with the RL just recently how inaccurate they can be. Still, I am not saying it ISN'T pushed back, just that there's no confirmation of such.

 

I understand your point. My point however, is Hyundai is apparently the only Asian manufacturer who, is getting it right now.

Well, Nissan/Infinity kind of gets it. But their VQ needs to be replaced.

 

I don't disagree with you there at all. Hyundai IS the only one who's We Get It products are on the showroom floor.

Maybe Honda and Toyota have re-seen the light, but we won't find out for at least a year.

 

I wouldnt hold my breath. We can only hope that Acura is the division of Honda that sees the light and gives us what Hyundai has seen.

 

All valid points. Just remember that there are plenty of companies that still cater to the enthusiast. Honda's made their choice.

 

Let's just say, after reading the mid year report from Honda all I have to say is, " NOT GOOD ENOUGH DAMN IT, NOT GOOD ENOUGH!!!"

 

I love my Fit, current Civic SI is nice, but showing age. CR-V is definitely viable. Accord coupe is nice, sedan is meh.

Acura has the TSX, which isn't bad looking and the MDX. Does Honda remember their roots in economical, fun to drive, reliable and safe vehicles?

Wasn't there an Edmunds article that was saying Honda is still living off the its success in the 90s? I grew up being a Honda fanboy. I'd still like to be one..

 

Sooo, Honda will be replacing the J-series dinosaur but with new engines built solely for fuel economy? Oh Great!!!!

 

IMA K24 for V-6 performance and I-4 economy!

 

K24!

Honda could run its entire lineup on the K engine and mild FI.

 

Yup, I think so. I'd be more willing to bet that that's more because of the 3's looks, relative affordability, and relative rarity.

Not really sport yet I guess, but they're definetely in the right direction. Camry SE, Sienna SE, LFA, and FT-86.

Not in these maintstream classes (family sedans, economy sedan etc.). Does anyone offer a V6 6MT family sedan anymore?

 

Well I don't think so, but some are still enjoyable enough for the enthusiast. The Altima's CVT sucks but that's more up to opinion and the rest of it is "sporty" enough. Same goes for the V-6 Mazda6. The Legacy 2.5GT comes with a manual and a superb AWD system, very enthusiastic.

Legacy aside though, you're right that there aren't really any proper sport family sedans anymore, just sportier trims with some kit and harder suspensions. Still good to drive, but sport sedan? Ehhhhhh.

 

Ya. I was thinking more along the lines of a sports car/sporty car...period.

 

failure!

Just need to have V8

 

lol I don't think Honda will EVER make a passenger car V8... ever.

 

The fact that Hyundai beat them to it leads me to believe that no it will NEVER happen.

Basically what I got out of that speech was, "People want fuel-efficient, soulless transportation appliances so this is what we will produce."

 

You can't get Honda near a V8 or RWD with a 10 foot pole!

 

NSX? S2k? Honda's dealt with RWD

 

I'm sorry, I should have added now to the end of my sentence. They just seem so scared to introduce either of those two things into their line up!

 

From an enthusiast standpoint ^^ sucks. But from a business standpoint, it makes sense particularly with respect to the current economy. My only concern is Honda completely going in the direction to which PortlandRL alludes:

...'cause that was EXACTLY what I got from the speech as well.

 

no fucking thanks!!!!

 

Well would you rather have IMA?

EDIT: That was probably too general a statement, but it's possible. Tuned K24s can reliably put up to 350 horsepower down, and similar torque numbers. Only issue I'd see with it is turbo lag, and maybe fuel economy, if the RDX's experiment is anything to go by.

 

I'd rather have something that's NOT a Honda these days. Anything but a Honda more like....

 

Nissan, Toyota and honda all make boring cars now. Enthusiasts should all move on. The days of the Celicas, 240SX's and Integras are long gone. Mazda and Hyundai (Genesis only) are the only ones who still like to have fun. (Among the Asian Brands)

 

...and that would run counter to Honda's efficiency goals. A tuned K24 may reliably produce said power levels but at stratospheric rpms....meaning it would put a smile on OPEC's face (so to speak).

Honestly, I think Honda got the motors in the RDX and TSX V6 backwards; the RDX should have received some version of the J35 (J35A5 comes to mind, though I'm not certain if the RDX's engine bay can accomodate it.) and a model topper TSX with a K23 (maybe tuned to 280 hp/280 lb-ft).

 

I'd say Mazda is doing the same. Look at the new 6. All they have are a couple of sports cars (so does Nissan).

 

Seems to me like Honda is being forced to build appliances now because of pressures from CAFE (mpg requirements), Shareholders (make money, damnit!), and corporate beancounters (make money, damnit...cheaply). I'm sure there are still plenty of enthusiasts within the company that wish to carry on Mr. Sōichirō 's vision of sporty Hondas, but alas, they are constrained by the management-directed requirement to appeal to the masses and do it efficiently. The same probably holds true for Toyota and why they are as bland as they currently are (although their directive is to take over the world, one beige car at a time). With Hyundai, they are taking big risks and it's paying off, but you can bet the beancounters were probably strongly against many aspects of the Genesis/Sonata/Equus plan. It probably took someone "outside the box" to tell them that this producing these cars is the only way Hyundai will be respected within the market. I think Honda's gonna have to go through a big event like the Detroit 2.5's decline, subsequent bankruptcy, and revitalization for them to really see what bad shape they are in within the market...

 

Wrong about Nissan. I think the GT-R and Z would beg to differ with you My new Maxima is also a blast to drive.

 

Lol. What is Honda's answer to the GT-R/370Z?

The CR-Z!!!

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100730/bs_nm/us_autos_2


TOKYO/BOULOGNE-BILLANCOURT, France (Reuters) – Honda Motor Co (7267.T) raised its full-year forecasts after posting a record quarterly net profit on Friday, while brisk sales returned France's Renault (RENA.PA) to profit in the first half.
Honda, Japan's No.2 automaker, joined rivals in reporting strong results for April-June, but like the rest of the industry, faces concerns over slowing demand in the United States and China, the world's two largest auto markets, and in Europe.
Car makers are fearful that austerity measures in Europe including tax hikes in some markets will slow the recovery there, leading Renault to stick to its goal for the year.
"In an uncertain environment in the second half of 2010, the group will continue to focus on its key target of generating positive free cash flow for the full year," Renault said.
Renault's half-year sales rose 23.1 percent like-for-like to 19.67 billion euros ($25.7 billion), while recurring operating profit reached 780 million euros, or 4 percent of sales. In the year-earlier period the group had posted a recurring operating loss of 620 million euros.
Renualt partner Nissan Motor Co (7201.T), Japan's No.3 automaker, had on Thursday reported its strongest quarterly operating profit in more than two years as sales surged, but it retained its cautious guidance.
HONDA LIFTS FORECASTS
Honda, the maker of the Accord and Civic cars reported a nine-fold jump in quarterly operating profit to 234.4 billion yen ($2.7 billion), easily beating the average 138.3 billion estimated by six analysts surveyed by Reuters.
First-quarter net profit, which includes earnings made in China, was 272.5 billion yen, its best quarter ever and up from 7.6 billion yen last year.
Honda lifted its net profit forecast to 455 billion yen from 340 billion yen but undershooting a consensus of 484 billion yen from a survey of 19 analysts by Thomson Reuters I/B/E/S.
"The new forecasts may look conservative when you look at the first-quarter performance, but there are many concerns and risks to take into account for the rest of the year," Executive Vice President Koichi Kondo told a news conference.
One issue clouding the outlook for Japanese automakers is a further strengthening in the yen, with the dollar hitting an eight-month low below 86.27 yen on Friday.
Tomomi Yamashita, fund manager, Shinkin Asset Management said that analysts' forecasts might be too optimistic.
"I do think there's a scenario where earnings momentum could go down quarter by quarter, which would explain this quarter and then the full year forecasts,," he said. "This does seem to suggest a gradually worsening momentum, but even so the numbers still aren't that bad."
Honda's operating profit margin improved to 9.9 percent from 4.2 percent in the previous quarter, thanks largely to its motorcycle business.
MICHELIN MARGINS AT RECORD
Also reporting strong margins was French tire maker Michelin (MICP.PA), which said it was aiming for an operating margin close to 9 percent in 2010 as the rebound in tire markets helped it post a record first-half operating margin.
In South Korea, Kia Motors (000270.KS) posted a 61 percent rose quarterly net profit, beating estimates as it enjoyed brisk sales of newly launched models.
Renault shares fell 0.3 percent in early trade, while Honda ended down 0.3 percent ahead of its results. Kia gained 2.8 percent, while Michelin added about 0.7 percent.
(Additional reporting Edwina Gibbs in Tokyo, Cheon Jong-woo in Seoul and Gilles Guillaume in Paris; Writing by Lincoln Feast; Editing by Mathew Veedon)