Honda: Development and Technology News
11-12-2012, 11:07 AM
#2201
Safety Car
SPORT HYBRID Intelligent Dual Clutch Drive
Honda Motor Co., Ltd. has developed a new SPORTS HYBRID Intelligent Dual Clutch Drive system, a lightweight and compact 1-motor hybrid system optimized for small-sized vehicles. This new hybrid system will be the latest addition to the Earth Dreams Technology series of next generation powertrain technology that realizes both excellent driving performance and high fuel efficiency.
Together with the SPORT HYBRID Intelligent Multi Mode Drive, the world's most efficient1 2-motor hybrid system optimized for mid-sized vehicles, and the SPORT HYBRID SH-AWD® (Super Handling - All Wheel Drive), the 3-motor hybrid system optimized for large-sized vehicles enabling independent control of torque distribution to both right and left rear wheels, the newly developed SPORT HYBRID Intelligent Dual Clutch Drive will constitute the lineup of 3 different Honda SPORT HYBRID systems that accommodate different vehicle characteristics. Honda will continue expanding the application of these hybrid systems based on vehicle characteristics.
SPORT HYBRID Systems Lineup
1-motor SPORT HYBRID Intelligent Dual Clutch Drive
In addition to top-level fuel efficiency in its class2, the fun of driving is realized with acceleration g-force more powerful than that of existing models as well as a rhythmic and linear acceleration feeling. This drive unit combines a newly developed inline 4-cylinder 1.5-liter Atkinson cycle engine with a 7-speed Dual Clutch Transmission (DCT) system with a built-in high-output motor and a Lithium-Ion battery to improve efficiency by more than 30 percent compared to a conventional one-motor hybrid system.
The combination of the 1-motor hybrid system and the engine realizes sporty driving during acceleration and high-speed cruising by using the clutches to engage the engine
Highly efficient electric vehicle (EV) driving is realized during startup and low- to medium-speed cruising by using the clutches to disengage the engine
This system contributes to the improvement of fuel efficiency by increasing energy regeneration using the clutches to disengage the engine during deceleration
2-motor SPORT HYBRID Intelligent Multi Mode Drive / Plug-in:Highly efficient electric vehicle (EV) driving is realized during startup and low- to medium-speed cruising by using the clutches to disengage the engine
This system contributes to the improvement of fuel efficiency by increasing energy regeneration using the clutches to disengage the engine during deceleration
Through the adoption of high-efficiency/high-output motors, both brisk acceleration with an EV-like driving feel and high fuel efficiency are realized at the same time. This hybrid system realizes the world's highest efficiency1 by combining a newly-developed engine dedicated to hybrid vehicles coupled with two built-in motors and a lock-up clutch, along with a Lithium-Ion battery, and by optimally switching the driving mode among three different profiles depending on the driving situation. This hybrid system, which is also suitable as a plug-in hybrid system, will be available in the North American version of the 2014 Honda Accord Plug-in, scheduled to be introduced to the market in January 2013. The system switches the operation among the following 3 driving modes depending on driving conditions and the battery charge level:
"EV Drive" for driving by the electric motor only, using electricity from the battery and regeneration during deceleration
"Engine Drive" for medium-to high-speed cruising with the engine and axle directly connected by a lock-up clutch, with engine power mechanically transferred to the wheels
"Hybrid Drive" for urban driving and powerful acceleration using the motor with electricity generated by the engine
"Engine Drive" for medium-to high-speed cruising with the engine and axle directly connected by a lock-up clutch, with engine power mechanically transferred to the wheels
"Hybrid Drive" for urban driving and powerful acceleration using the motor with electricity generated by the engine
3-motor SPORT HYBRID SH-AWD ® (Super Handling - All Wheel Drive):
The combination of a V-6 engine and this high-output 3-motor system realizes acceleration performance equivalent to that of a V-8 engine with fuel efficiency better than that of an inline 4-cylinder engine. A new direct-injected 3.5-liter V-6 engine is installed in the front of the vehicle and combined with a newly-developed 7-speed DCT system with a built-in motor. This unique Honda technology uses 2 electric motors installed in the rear to control torque distribution to the right and left rear wheels.
Using independent motors for the right and left rear wheels, positive torque is applied to the outside wheel and negative torque is applied to the inside wheel, making independent control of torque distribution to the rear wheels possible without relying on engine output
Depending on the radius of the curve, the energy generated by the inside wheel is recovered electrically and applied to the outside wheel to self-generate torque necessary for the vehicle to make the turn
1 Per Honda internal research as of August 2012Depending on the radius of the curve, the energy generated by the inside wheel is recovered electrically and applied to the outside wheel to self-generate torque necessary for the vehicle to make the turn
2 Hybrid systems for a 1.5L engines
11-12-2012, 02:56 PM
#2202
▒JDM ¥ KING▒
^ Great stuff! New era!
11-13-2012, 02:45 PM
#2205
6G TLX-S
Don't quite understand the difference between the 1-motor and the 2-motor setup ?
The 1-motor setup has been widely used by all auto makers. But the 2-motor setup ? Does each of the 2 motors drive each side of the front wheels ?
The 1-motor setup has been widely used by all auto makers. But the 2-motor setup ? Does each of the 2 motors drive each side of the front wheels ?
11-13-2012, 05:10 PM
#2206
You'll Never Walk Alone
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http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...e-drive-review
The main powertrain components are a 2.0-liter Atkinson-cycle inline-four and two electric motors—one to charge the battery pack and one to spin the wheels. The gas engine puts out 134 hp and 111 lb-ft of torque; the drive motor is good for 161 hp; and the generator is rated at 100 kW.
01-08-2013, 07:29 AM
#2207
Safety Car
1 PlatForm
Though Honda experienced sales success in 2012 with the Accord, Civic, and CR-V, we hear the automaker may move the 3 high-volume vehicles to 1 platform by 2017. The move could help Honda reduce purchasing costs for the 3 models by about 30% in 3 to 4 years, a new report suggests, and help the automaker better compete in emerging markets.
In the U.S., the Honda Accord was the 2nd-best-selling midsize sedan in 2012, while the Civic and CR-V topped their respective vehicle segments. Designing all 3 vehicles on 1, flexible platform could help increase the number of shared parts, but that’s not the only way Honda can reduce costs.
Before long, Honda may start asking suppliers to design, develop, and assemble parts after providing the proper specifications, the report suggests, instead of the automaker assembling parts already built by suppliers. Honda also plans to more than double investment in major suppliers capable of supplying parts in emerging markets around the world.
With Honda possibly adopting a similar parts-sharing strategy as the one we’ve seen from Volkswagen, we wonder whether potential cost savings could be invested back into improving lower-volume models like the Honda CR-Z or even help make a business case for a “baby NSX” type car.
Before any of those speculative possibilities happen, though, Honda will debut the Urban SUV concept to the Detroit auto show this month. The concept likely previews a Fit-based crossover coming to the U.S. market.
07-02-2013, 06:28 AM
#2208
Safety Car
Gm
TOKYO—General Motors Co. GM +2.03% and Honda Motor Co. 7267.TO +2.70% will team up to develop fuel-cell systems, as global car makers form environmental-technology partnerships to cut costs and speed up development times.
The 2 car makers will announce their tie-up on Tuesday in the U.S., a person with knowledge of the plan said.
Stricter vehicle emission regulations world-wide and hopes of tapping into surging demand for hybrid cars and other fuel efficient vehicles are causing a number of major auto makers to join hands to develop costly environmental technology.
Demand for automobile fuel-cell systems is expected to surge to ¥2.910 trillion by the fiscal year ending in March 2026 from ¥300 million in the year ended March 2012, according to research firm Fuji Keizai Co.
With Toyota Motor Corp., 7203.TO +2.81% Ford Motor Co. F +1.72% and others having already forged their alliances in the development of fuel-cell technology, there was much interest in GM and Honda's future courses.
GM ended its research collaboration on hydrogen fuel cell technology with Toyota in 2006, while Honda has been working on a system on its own.
Last year, Toyota and BMW AG BMW.XE -2.01% agreed to extend their cooperation pact to include the development of fuel cells and other technologies needed to improve efficiency. Ford, Daimler AG, DAI.XE -0.25% Nissan Motor Co. 7201.TO +2.85% and Renault SA RNO.FR +1.05% are jointly working on fuel-cell systems that could be featured in road cars as early as 2017.
Among the wide range of green cars being developed, fuel-cell vehicles, which run on electricity generated through a chemical reaction between hydrogen and oxygen and which emit only water as a byproduct, are seen as 1 of the most promising areas of exploration.
Such vehicles are already commercially available, but the lack of hydrogen stations providing fuel and the high costs of building such vehicles are 2 big factors limiting demand. Fuel cell car makers mostly offer their vehicles to corporate customers and local governments world-wide for leasing, but some car makers plan to sell them to individuals in the next few years.
Toyota, for instance, plans to start selling a fuel-cell hydrogen powered sedan to individual customers in 2015.
In the field of next-generation fuel technology, electric cars that are battery powered are a main rival to fuel-cell cars.
Battery powered electric cars also generate no toxic exhaust gases while running, but fuel-cell vehicles have shorter fuel-pumping times than the power-charging time of battery cars and can travel for longer distances than battery-powered electric vehicles.
Write to Yoshio Takahashi at yoshio.takahashi@wsj.com
07-02-2013, 07:03 AM
#2209
Race Director
^ the tech is already there (Clarity) - and with a bit more R&D they can get the cost of the cell down to below that of a battery (the rest of the car is the same as an EV). The issue is infrastrucutre of refueling stations (which is even worse than for electrics).
07-02-2013, 07:28 AM
#2210
Race Director
....and in a related matter....
http://www.autoweek.com/article/2013...REEN/130709989
http://www.autoweek.com/article/2013...REEN/130709989
Like the fabled water-burning carburetor, hydrogen fuel cell-powered vehicles have long promised to liberate us from fossil fuels -- generating electricity from two (theoretically) abundant elements, hydrogen and oxygen, and emitting only water vapor as a byproduct.
But while functional fuel cell-powered vehicle prototypes have been produced (giving the tech a leg-up on the carburetors of urban legend), fuel cells have yet to make the leap to consumer vehicles. That’s partially because of the complexity of isolating and transferring pure hydrogen, and partially because of the expense and fragility of the fuel cells themselves.
There may be some progress on one half of that equation. As Consumer Reports, er, reports, British company ACAL Energy has developed a fuel cell that lasts up to 300,000 miles without using platinum -- a heavy metal so valuable that thieves hack off catalytic converters just to obtain it.
The fuel cell uses a liquid catalyst called FlowCath, and it produces the equivalent of 135 hp. As a nice bonus, ACAL Energy CEO Greg McCray claims that their fuel cells allow vehicles to “drive over 500 miles per tank of fuel” and that refueling times are on par with those of conventional vehicles.
The lack of a quick-refill period has been one of the stumbling blocks of electric vehicles -- a major competitor to hydrogen in the alternative fuel battle -- at least until Tesla decided to invest in battery sway technology.
If ACAL Energy is on to something, and cheap, reliable fuel cells become feasible, someone will still have to tackle the problem of hydrogen production, transportation and storage. Still, we think some cautious optimism is in order
But while functional fuel cell-powered vehicle prototypes have been produced (giving the tech a leg-up on the carburetors of urban legend), fuel cells have yet to make the leap to consumer vehicles. That’s partially because of the complexity of isolating and transferring pure hydrogen, and partially because of the expense and fragility of the fuel cells themselves.
There may be some progress on one half of that equation. As Consumer Reports, er, reports, British company ACAL Energy has developed a fuel cell that lasts up to 300,000 miles without using platinum -- a heavy metal so valuable that thieves hack off catalytic converters just to obtain it.
The fuel cell uses a liquid catalyst called FlowCath, and it produces the equivalent of 135 hp. As a nice bonus, ACAL Energy CEO Greg McCray claims that their fuel cells allow vehicles to “drive over 500 miles per tank of fuel” and that refueling times are on par with those of conventional vehicles.
The lack of a quick-refill period has been one of the stumbling blocks of electric vehicles -- a major competitor to hydrogen in the alternative fuel battle -- at least until Tesla decided to invest in battery sway technology.
If ACAL Energy is on to something, and cheap, reliable fuel cells become feasible, someone will still have to tackle the problem of hydrogen production, transportation and storage. Still, we think some cautious optimism is in order
07-02-2013, 07:31 AM
#2211
Race Director
One of the reasons many big name car makers are getting together on this is that no one has much inhouse experience with fuell cells. Farming out the fuel cell to makers like in the above is probably the norm but the makers would probably would want to bring it inhouse. 135 HP.....what car would that power? 
07-24-2013, 01:18 PM
#2212
Race Director
http://www.autoweek.com/article/2013...WS01/130729954
For all of you complaining about a lack of a RWD platform......
What goes 130 mph, runs Honda power and can tear up a football field as well as a racetrack? No, it's not the latest Indy machine, it's the Mean Mower.
Honda built this unholy ode to lawn care in a response to a Top Gear magazine challenge and had Scottish race-car driver and British Touring Car Champion Gordon “Flash” Shedden test it from behind the wheel.
The project started with a Honda riding mower, into which a 1,000cc motorcycle engine was installed. The suspension and tires were added from a racing ATV, allowing it to go from 0-60 mph in just four seconds. It clocked 100 mph on a test spin at Top Gear's annual Speed Week event.
The magazine's chief road test editor, Piers Ward, also took the mower for a spin.
“Having driven it, I've never been so terrified. It accelerates like a rocket and, like any mower, there aren't any seatbelts,” Ward said.
Honda also told the BBC it hopes the mower project will increase its sporty credentials.
Honda built this unholy ode to lawn care in a response to a Top Gear magazine challenge and had Scottish race-car driver and British Touring Car Champion Gordon “Flash” Shedden test it from behind the wheel.
The project started with a Honda riding mower, into which a 1,000cc motorcycle engine was installed. The suspension and tires were added from a racing ATV, allowing it to go from 0-60 mph in just four seconds. It clocked 100 mph on a test spin at Top Gear's annual Speed Week event.
The magazine's chief road test editor, Piers Ward, also took the mower for a spin.
“Having driven it, I've never been so terrified. It accelerates like a rocket and, like any mower, there aren't any seatbelts,” Ward said.
Honda also told the BBC it hopes the mower project will increase its sporty credentials.
For all of you complaining about a lack of a RWD platform......
07-24-2013, 01:36 PM
#2214
Band plays in the back of a Honda fit? I just can't wait to watch the video on my iFag.
Now music has really stepped to a new low.
Now music has really stepped to a new low.
07-24-2013, 02:25 PM
#2215
The sizzle in the Steak
Honda also told the BBC it hopes the mower project will increase its sporty credentials.
07-24-2013, 09:34 PM
#2216
Senior Moderator
07-25-2013, 12:30 AM
#2217
6G TLX-S
Honda should have added SH-AWD to this mean riding mowing machine, so that it can do torque-vectoring U-turns in lightning speed, whenever it needs to turn around after reaching the end of the grass field.
07-25-2013, 07:34 AM
#2218
Senior Moderator
Wonder why it doesnt have the most aerodynamic mirrors in the industry?
08-04-2013, 01:33 PM
#2219
Honda is about start diesel revolution. All new models are coming with diesel. $200b sale target achievable in next 4 years. This level of sales will create big economies of scale like Toyota and VW group.
http://www.rushlane.com/honda-amaze-...s-1285688.html
Honda Amaze petrol waiting period touches 7 months: Zilch for Maruti DZire
by Nabanita Singha Roy
http://www.rushlane.com/honda-amaze-...s-1285688.html
Honda Amaze petrol waiting period touches 7 months: Zilch for Maruti DZire
by Nabanita Singha Roy
08-06-2013, 06:34 AM
#2220
Safety Car
GreenCarReports
Just how close do cars get to their official EPA gas mileage figures?
We expect it's a question many of our readers are familiar with--either in keeping an eye on their own car's gas mileage, or from friends asking about their next car.
It's become all the more important in recent months, with high-profile criticism for makers like Ford, whose recent hybrid models struggle to attain the figures returned in EPA testing. And while some cars routinely struggle to reach their official numbers, other cars are often much better in the real world--as Volkswagen diesel owners are often all too eager to point out!
We decided to browse some of the more well-known gas-sipping models using Fuelly.com's roster of driver-inputted numbers, to see which models fare best, and which aren't so good in the real world. It's looking good for Honda and Volkswagen, but not so much for Ford...
Winners
Honda CR-Z
EPA: 34/37 mpg combined (manual/CVT)
Real world: 37-40 mpg
The economy of Honda's sporty compact hybrid might have disappointed some critics at launch, but in the real world the hybrid hatchback actually does a lot better--averaging as high as 40 mpg for many drivers. Dive further into the figures, and there's no clear distinction between manual or auto either--suggesting driving style, rather than transmission, matters most for the CR-Z.
Honda Insight
EPA: 42 mpg combined
Real world: 43-46 mpg
Another much maligned Honda, the Insight seems able to beat its official 42 mpg figure by as much as 10 percent. 2012's sample of 48 cars is faring best, with up to 46.4 mpg on average. Figures well into the 50s aren't uncommon for individual users, and only a handful are doing less than 38 mpg--the Insight really does punch above its weight. It's also 1 of the cheapest hybrids on sale, so represents a good way of getting high mileage for less money.
Volkswagen Jetta TDI
EPA: 34 mpg combined
Real world: 38-39 mpg
All those VW drivers are right--the Jetta TDI really does attain better numbers than the EPA credits it. While officially rated at 34 mpg combined, drivers in the real world are averaging closer to 38 or 39 mpg--14 percent better than quoted. Dozens of drivers are even getting numbers in the high 40s, but after then it tails off. For any driver doing mostly highway miles, the appeal of VW's TDI models is clear to see.
Good effort
Honda Civic Hybrid
EPA: 44 mpg combined
Real world: 43-44 mpg
Honda's highest-mileage hybrid on paper isn't quite as good in the real world as the cheaper Insight, but most drivers are still matching the official 44 mpg combined rating. That means you can either appreciate the Civic Hybrid for what it is--a usefully economical sedan--or save a few thousand and buy an Insight instead...
Lexus CT 200h
EPA: 42 mpg combined
Real world: 42+ mpg
If you want hybrid economy mixed with a little luxury, the CT 200h is about as good as you can get at the moment--and drivers are just creeping over its official 42 mpg figure. Not spectacular then, but you shouldn't feel short-changed either.
Toyota Prius
EPA: 50 mpg combined
Real world: 48 mpg
The archetypal hybrid isn't a champion when it comes to beating the EPA figures, but most drivers are getting within 2 mpg of its 50 mpg combined figure and some are getting significantly more. A few hundred of the Fuelly's 2,300 Prius users are still managing to beat 50 mpg, so the potential is there.
Toyota Prius C
EPA: 50 mpg combined
Real world: 50+ mpg
Even better news for the smaller Prius, with drivers matching its 50 mpg combined number without too much trouble. Like the regular Prius, and a few other cars here, some users are getting significantly more, while only a few people are dipping below 45 mpg. As a city car, there are few better choices.
Toyota Prius v
EPA: 42 mpg combined
Real world: 42-43 mpg
The biggest Prius is also a good choice for those wanting high mileage, particularly as there's plenty of utility to go with it. Matching the EPA's numbers doesn't seem like much work--not bad for a car clearly designed to carry more stuff on a regular basis.
Losers
Ford C-Max Hybrid
EPA: 47 mpg combined
Real world: 40 mpg
Missing out by almost 15 percent, drivers are struggling to match the 47 mpg EPA figure claimed for the C-Max Hybrid. They're also failing to match the 42-43 mpg of the less sophisticated Toyota Prius V, which must be a little galling. The Ford is nicer to drive of course, but a few more MPG wouldn't go amiss...
Ford Fusion Hybrid
EPA: 47 mpg combined
Real world: 41 mpg
Sadly, but predictably, the Fusion Hybrid joins the C-Max with real-world economy 12 percent down on EPA figures. The slight increase from the C-Max might be down to driving style, or it may be due to sleeker aerodynamics. 41 mpg is still good for a sedan the size of the Fusion, but may be a disappointment for those expecting more.
Lexus RX 450h
EPA: 30 mpg combined (FWD)
Real world: 24-28 mpg
It's not just Ford drivers failing to match sky-high EPA numbers--Lexus is at it too. We've included the RX as we've experienced its lackluster real-world economy 1st hand, on more than 1 occasion. Drivetrain does play a part here (better with front wheel drive than all 4), but ultimately it's a struggle for economy-minded RX owners.
08-06-2013, 08:44 AM
#2221
Race Director
^ I think some of this is also true in non hybrid cars. What is not measured however, is driving style. I have a feeling if you a typical Honda owner to drive that Ford, the Ford numbers would be better.
08-06-2013, 01:57 PM
#2224
Instructor
08-06-2013, 03:04 PM
#2225
Senior Moderator
I'm on auto forums and news sites daily and never heard of that site. Still far easier to look at the window sticker and/or believe what the salesman is selling you.
08-06-2013, 03:30 PM
#2226
The sizzle in the Steak
Under: Good Effort:
Good effort?
Who writes this crap?!?!
The met or exceeded their ratings.
Toyota Prius C
EPA: 50 mpg combined
Real world: 50+ mpg
Toyota Prius v
EPA: 42 mpg combined
Real world: 42-43 mpg
EPA: 50 mpg combined
Real world: 50+ mpg
Toyota Prius v
EPA: 42 mpg combined
Real world: 42-43 mpg
Who writes this crap?!?!
The met or exceeded their ratings.
08-06-2013, 05:20 PM
#2227
You'll Never Walk Alone
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Hahaha I guess the issue is that there are cars out there that GREATLY exceed their ratings.........
08-06-2013, 05:50 PM
#2228
The sizzle in the Steak
^^ GREATLY 
1 mpg is GREATLY?
Prius V did that too.
It's a mind numbing stupid article.
Honda Insight
EPA: 42 mpg combined
Real world: 43-46 mpg
EPA: 42 mpg combined
Real world: 43-46 mpg
Prius V did that too.
It's a mind numbing stupid article.
08-06-2013, 09:56 PM
#2229
Instructor
08-09-2013, 09:37 AM
#2231
Korean maker cheapness is showing. Only Honda can redesign the same current model and no big difference in weight and still get top safety ratings.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...rash-test.html
Honda Motor Co. (7267)’s Civic won the top grade in a new crash test of small cars while Nissan Motor Co.’s Sentra and two Kia Motors Corp. (000270) models received “poor” ratings, according to an insurance industry group.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...rash-test.html
Honda Motor Co. (7267)’s Civic won the top grade in a new crash test of small cars while Nissan Motor Co.’s Sentra and two Kia Motors Corp. (000270) models received “poor” ratings, according to an insurance industry group.
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08-09-2013, 05:39 PM
#2232
Korean maker cheapness is showing. Only Honda can redesign the same current model and no big difference in weight and still get top safety ratings.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...rash-test.html
Honda Motor Co. (7267)’s Civic won the top grade in a new crash test of small cars while Nissan Motor Co.’s Sentra and two Kia Motors Corp. (000270) models received “poor” ratings, according to an insurance industry group.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...rash-test.html
Honda Motor Co. (7267)’s Civic won the top grade in a new crash test of small cars while Nissan Motor Co.’s Sentra and two Kia Motors Corp. (000270) models received “poor” ratings, according to an insurance industry group.
The Kia Soul is also an old design that came out before the small overlap test existed. Sure, it didn't do well in the small overlap test but it did well enough for the IIHS to name it their Top Safety Pick.
The Kia Forte also received a IIHS Top Safety Pick rating.
A more fair comparison would be to test a 8th generation Civic (2006-2011) with the older ACE structure and compare it to the Forte and Soul. But no such tests exist from what I can see. The only small overlap tests done with cars that have the older ACE body structure that I can find are for the 2012 Acura TL and TSX which earned good and marginal ratings, respectively. If the larger TL received good and the smaller TSX received marginal, I wonder what the much smaller Civic would get.
The 5th generation Hyundai Elantra got acceptable. I would imagine the 6th generation Elantra to do better as it will likely be designed with the small overlap test in mind. I'd imagine the same would apply to a new and redesigned Forte and Soul too.
Last edited by AZuser; 08-09-2013 at 05:42 PM.
08-09-2013, 07:51 PM
#2233
Keep in mind that the Kia Forte is a 5 year old car. It was designed/developed way before the small overlap test even existed while the Civic is brand new for 2013 and got the updated ACE II body structure with its redesign.
The Kia Soul is also an old design that came out before the small overlap test existed. Sure, it didn't do well in the small overlap test but it did well enough for the IIHS to name it their Top Safety Pick.
The Kia Forte also received a IIHS Top Safety Pick rating.
A more fair comparison would be to test a 8th generation Civic (2006-2011) with the older ACE structure and compare it to the Forte and Soul. But no such tests exist from what I can see. The only small overlap tests done with cars that have the older ACE body structure that I can find are for the 2012 Acura TL and TSX which earned good and marginal ratings, respectively. If the larger TL received good and the smaller TSX received marginal, I wonder what the much smaller Civic would get.
The 5th generation Hyundai Elantra got acceptable. I would imagine the 6th generation Elantra to do better as it will likely be designed with the small overlap test in mind. I'd imagine the same would apply to a new and redesigned Forte and Soul too.
The Kia Soul is also an old design that came out before the small overlap test existed. Sure, it didn't do well in the small overlap test but it did well enough for the IIHS to name it their Top Safety Pick.
The Kia Forte also received a IIHS Top Safety Pick rating.
A more fair comparison would be to test a 8th generation Civic (2006-2011) with the older ACE structure and compare it to the Forte and Soul. But no such tests exist from what I can see. The only small overlap tests done with cars that have the older ACE body structure that I can find are for the 2012 Acura TL and TSX which earned good and marginal ratings, respectively. If the larger TL received good and the smaller TSX received marginal, I wonder what the much smaller Civic would get.
The 5th generation Hyundai Elantra got acceptable. I would imagine the 6th generation Elantra to do better as it will likely be designed with the small overlap test in mind. I'd imagine the same would apply to a new and redesigned Forte and Soul too.
9G Civic is smaller version of 8G Civic with practically no weight difference.
08-10-2013, 02:11 AM
#2234
If ACE was so good, then the 2012 TL and TSX would have done better in the small overlap test.
ACE II is a big improvement over ACE. ACE II uses higher grade steel and does a better job at absorbing and distributing the forces from a frontal impact more evenly throughout the front of the vehicle while at the same time redirecting and reducing the forces that are transferred to the passenger cabin.
From http://blog.newsok.com/carsok/2013/0...p-safety-pick/
First introduced for consumers this past summer, the small overlap test measures forces (on a crash-test dummy) and cabin intrusion when the corner of the vehicle (25 percent of the front end) impacts a rigid barrier at 40 mph.
Honda points to its second-generation ACE body structure -- so called ACE II -- for the excellent protection. And going from the 2012 model to the 2013 model, the Civic got some important ACE II structural changes that coordinated well with the new tests. Which is a bit surprising, considering that the Civic had been redesigned for 2012.
Improved protection for 2013 Civic, versus 2012
“Since the Civic had a minor model change for the '13 model, we took that opportunity to make some changes to the structure,” explained Chuck Thomas, Honda's chief engineer in charge of collision safety.
Specifically, the 2013 Civic gets some higher-strength materials to reinforce the cabin space, along with some additional components in the structure and the engine compartment that are together more effective in absorbing energy in this kind of crash.
The original ACE structure was designed in the mid-2000s and focused around the issue of compatibility between different vehicle sizes. Honda designs its smaller vehicles with a stronger structure up high, while with the larger vehicles the stronger structures are down low, with the aim of engaging the structure in differing sizes of vehicles. With the ACE II improvements, where the main longitudinal members of the structure aren't engaged, you get secondary load paths to help absorb the impact energy.
“At the same time, since 2005, many of these materials have become available to us—things like hot-pressed steel, that has very high tensile strength—that weren't really that available in the early 2000s,” said Thomas.
“I do think that it's important to note that the changes that we've made to this vehicle, particularly as we've improved the structure to help maintain the integrity of the occupant space, helps in all types of real-world crashes,” asserted Thomas. “The changes that we're making in improving the door ring and the door structure helps in rolliover crashes, frontal crashes, and rollover crashes; it helps maintain and protect the space around the occupant.”
Honda points to its second-generation ACE body structure -- so called ACE II -- for the excellent protection. And going from the 2012 model to the 2013 model, the Civic got some important ACE II structural changes that coordinated well with the new tests. Which is a bit surprising, considering that the Civic had been redesigned for 2012.
Improved protection for 2013 Civic, versus 2012
“Since the Civic had a minor model change for the '13 model, we took that opportunity to make some changes to the structure,” explained Chuck Thomas, Honda's chief engineer in charge of collision safety.
Specifically, the 2013 Civic gets some higher-strength materials to reinforce the cabin space, along with some additional components in the structure and the engine compartment that are together more effective in absorbing energy in this kind of crash.
The original ACE structure was designed in the mid-2000s and focused around the issue of compatibility between different vehicle sizes. Honda designs its smaller vehicles with a stronger structure up high, while with the larger vehicles the stronger structures are down low, with the aim of engaging the structure in differing sizes of vehicles. With the ACE II improvements, where the main longitudinal members of the structure aren't engaged, you get secondary load paths to help absorb the impact energy.
“At the same time, since 2005, many of these materials have become available to us—things like hot-pressed steel, that has very high tensile strength—that weren't really that available in the early 2000s,” said Thomas.
“I do think that it's important to note that the changes that we've made to this vehicle, particularly as we've improved the structure to help maintain the integrity of the occupant space, helps in all types of real-world crashes,” asserted Thomas. “The changes that we're making in improving the door ring and the door structure helps in rolliover crashes, frontal crashes, and rollover crashes; it helps maintain and protect the space around the occupant.”
So yeah, comparing a newly redesigned 2013 Civic with its more advanced body structure designed with the small overlap test in mind to 5 year old Kia's is a bit unfair, don't you think?
Last edited by AZuser; 08-10-2013 at 02:14 AM.
08-10-2013, 12:07 PM
#2235
Moderator
08-10-2013, 12:36 PM
#2236
Exterior appearance-wise, there may not be a huge difference. But it is what's underneath that's important. The difference between ACE and ACE II is pretty big.
If ACE was so good, then the 2012 TL and TSX would have done better in the small overlap test.
ACE II is a big improvement over ACE. ACE II uses higher grade steel and does a better job at absorbing and distributing the forces from a frontal impact more evenly throughout the front of the vehicle while at the same time redirecting and reducing the forces that are transferred to the passenger cabin.
From http://blog.newsok.com/carsok/2013/0...p-safety-pick/
So yeah, comparing a newly redesigned 2013 Civic with its more advanced body structure designed with the small overlap test in mind to 5 year old Kia's is a bit unfair, don't you think?
If ACE was so good, then the 2012 TL and TSX would have done better in the small overlap test.
ACE II is a big improvement over ACE. ACE II uses higher grade steel and does a better job at absorbing and distributing the forces from a frontal impact more evenly throughout the front of the vehicle while at the same time redirecting and reducing the forces that are transferred to the passenger cabin.
From http://blog.newsok.com/carsok/2013/0...p-safety-pick/
So yeah, comparing a newly redesigned 2013 Civic with its more advanced body structure designed with the small overlap test in mind to 5 year old Kia's is a bit unfair, don't you think?
http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com...nt_Crash_Test/
The 2014 Kia Forte, 2013 Kia Soul and 2013 Nissan Sentra received the lowest rating of Poor.
The 2014 Kia Forte, 2013 Kia Soul and 2013 Nissan Sentra received the lowest rating of Poor.
08-10-2013, 02:13 PM
#2237
The exception would be the 2014 Kia Forte, but even then it still received an IIHS Top Safety Pick It just didn't get their TSP+ rating.
If the "Korean maker cheapness is showing" because they didn't earn a Good rating across the board, then Acura's cheapness must be showing too since the 2013 TSX didn't earn a Good rating either (it got Marginal).
Oh, look. The 2013 Accord coupe (with its ACE II body structure) didn't earn a Good rating either (only got Acceptable). Hey, their cheapness is showing.
The 2013 Honda CR-V only got a Marginal rating. Hey, their cheapness is showing.
The Hyundai Elantra got an Acceptable rating, higher than the TSX's and CR-V's Marginal rating.
2014 Kia Forte - Poor
2013 Kia Soul - Poor
2013 Hyundai Elantra - Acceptable
2013 Acura TSX - Marginal
2013 Honda Accord coupe - Acceptable
2013 Honda CR-V - Marginal
Biased much?
08-10-2013, 02:14 PM
#2238
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And in other shocking news: Patterns indicate that newer designs outperform older ones.
08-10-2013, 03:03 PM
#2239
The 2013 Kia Soul is still a 1st generation design which came out before the 2012 small overlap test even existed. Did you honestly expect them to see into the future and design it to meet a safety test before it existed?
The exception would be the 2014 Kia Forte, but even then it still received an IIHS Top Safety Pick It just didn't get their TSP+ rating.
If the "Korean maker cheapness is showing" because they didn't earn a Good rating across the board, then Acura's cheapness must be showing too since the 2013 TSX didn't earn a Good rating either (it got Marginal).
Oh, look. The 2013 Accord coupe (with its ACE II body structure) didn't earn a Good rating either (only got Acceptable). Hey, their cheapness is showing.
The 2013 Honda CR-V only got a Marginal rating. Hey, their cheapness is showing.
The Hyundai Elantra got an Acceptable rating, higher than the TSX's and CR-V's Marginal rating.
2014 Kia Forte - Poor
2013 Kia Soul - Poor
2013 Hyundai Elantra - Acceptable
2013 Acura TSX - Marginal
2013 Honda Accord coupe - Acceptable
2013 Honda CR-V - Marginal
Biased much?
The exception would be the 2014 Kia Forte, but even then it still received an IIHS Top Safety Pick It just didn't get their TSP+ rating.
If the "Korean maker cheapness is showing" because they didn't earn a Good rating across the board, then Acura's cheapness must be showing too since the 2013 TSX didn't earn a Good rating either (it got Marginal).
Oh, look. The 2013 Accord coupe (with its ACE II body structure) didn't earn a Good rating either (only got Acceptable). Hey, their cheapness is showing.
The 2013 Honda CR-V only got a Marginal rating. Hey, their cheapness is showing.
The Hyundai Elantra got an Acceptable rating, higher than the TSX's and CR-V's Marginal rating.
2014 Kia Forte - Poor
2013 Kia Soul - Poor
2013 Hyundai Elantra - Acceptable
2013 Acura TSX - Marginal
2013 Honda Accord coupe - Acceptable
2013 Honda CR-V - Marginal
Biased much?
The same design CRV that got marginal in US tests got 5 star in Euro Tests. as i said it wont matter to Honda. it all depend how much they want to MMC same design with same weights.
There are different percentages in safety even with 5 start ratings.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/ne...-safety-rating
The British-built Honda CR-V has gained five stars in the latest round of Euro NCAP safety tests.
08-10-2013, 06:47 PM
#2240
Again making poor comparision. Honda can upgrade TSX to ACEII and it will still look the same and same dimension/weights. Honda cars are designed from ground up for future proof. Its is just Honda global priorities are different which one get MMC and which one dont.
The same design CRV that got marginal in US tests got 5 star in Euro Tests. as i said it wont matter to Honda. it all depend how much they want to MMC same design with same weights.
There are different percentages in safety even with 5 start ratings.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/ne...-safety-rating
The British-built Honda CR-V has gained five stars in the latest round of Euro NCAP safety tests.
The same design CRV that got marginal in US tests got 5 star in Euro Tests. as i said it wont matter to Honda. it all depend how much they want to MMC same design with same weights.
There are different percentages in safety even with 5 start ratings.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/ne...-safety-rating
The British-built Honda CR-V has gained five stars in the latest round of Euro NCAP safety tests.
I'm not the one comparing a newly redesigned and structurally updated for 2013 Civic to the 4 year old designed and pre-small overlap Kia Soul and Hyundai Elantra.If Honda can design the ACE II-structured 2013 Civic to get a Good rating, then what's Honda's excuse for the 2013 Accord coupe not getting a Good score with its ACE II structure?
Must be Honda's cheapness.So we're using Euro NCAP tests now? Okay, fine. Guess what? The Kia Soul got a 5 star Euro NCAP safety rating. The Kia Cee'd (Euro version of Forte) also got a 5 star Euro NCAP rating. And not to be left out, the Hyundai i30 (Euro version of Elantra) got a 5 star Euro NCAP rating too.
But knowing you, I'm sure you'll make up some
to dismiss them.