Genesis: G70 News
#241
#242
I've had several manual cars in my life (still have one) and, while I enjoy them in some cars, they just don't feel right in others. Almost feel like an afterthought in the design process. Manuals are dying, that's a given right now. Automatics have become so good these days that they are now both more efficient and faster in terms of performance than the manual counterpart. This is why you can't really buy a manual supercar anymore. Also why most performance cars are going automatic. The only reason to buy one now is because you like to change your own gears, that's about it. Not saying that's a bad thing but it's all that's left.
#243
It is slower, by quite a lot. Track times are one thing but acceleration is a different animal between the manual and auto. Sorry to burst your bubble but there's data to prove that. I'm not sure which one you were driving but mine nails it every time without issue. I have only run into a few occasions where it got confused in full auto but in manual mode it's dead on and immediate every time.
I've had several manual cars in my life (still have one) and, while I enjoy them in some cars, they just don't feel right in others. Almost feel like an afterthought in the design process. Manuals are dying, that's a given right now. Automatics have become so good these days that they are now both more efficient and faster in terms of performance than the manual counterpart. This is why you can't really buy a manual supercar anymore. Also why most performance cars are going automatic. The only reason to buy one now is because you like to change your own gears, that's about it. Not saying that's a bad thing but it's all that's left.
I've had several manual cars in my life (still have one) and, while I enjoy them in some cars, they just don't feel right in others. Almost feel like an afterthought in the design process. Manuals are dying, that's a given right now. Automatics have become so good these days that they are now both more efficient and faster in terms of performance than the manual counterpart. This is why you can't really buy a manual supercar anymore. Also why most performance cars are going automatic. The only reason to buy one now is because you like to change your own gears, that's about it. Not saying that's a bad thing but it's all that's left.
#245
I'm with Sam on the DSG in the Golf (GTI/R) The few GTI i drove, it performed phenomenally, and would've been my choice over the 6MT.
Just some cars where one is better than the other, but it's all down to user preference in the end.
Just some cars where one is better than the other, but it's all down to user preference in the end.
#246
Anyway so far the G70 has racked up the following:
"Vehicle of the Year" by Roadshow by CNET Shift Award
2019 North American Car of the Year
AutoGuide "2019 Car of the Year"
2018 GOOD DESIGN® award
Highway Safety (IIHS) Top Safety Pick+ Award
"Best Deluxe Car" by the Hispanic Motor Press
"2019 10 Best Award" by Car and Driver
MotorTrend Car of the Year Award
"Best Luxury Sedan" by Ruedas ESPN
"iF Design award for automotive product design" by the World Design Guide
"Top Safety Pick Plus award" by The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety
J.D. Power Highest Ranked Brand in Initial Quality
"Vehicle of the Year" by Roadshow by CNET Shift Award
2019 North American Car of the Year
AutoGuide "2019 Car of the Year"
2018 GOOD DESIGN® award
Highway Safety (IIHS) Top Safety Pick+ Award
"Best Deluxe Car" by the Hispanic Motor Press
"2019 10 Best Award" by Car and Driver
MotorTrend Car of the Year Award
"Best Luxury Sedan" by Ruedas ESPN
"iF Design award for automotive product design" by the World Design Guide
"Top Safety Pick Plus award" by The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety
J.D. Power Highest Ranked Brand in Initial Quality
#249
Hard to tell, but Genesis is in the unenviable position of being a luxury manufacturer without any crossovers in North America.
#250
Now the 2019 rollout has been a mess so they may take a hit the first year. But at least the G70 would have a better predicted reliability compared to the Alfa Romeo and Germans!
#251
Only 12 out of 24 new Genesis on Autotrader within 75 miles of Houston have live/real photos. 23 G80s, 1 G90.
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kurtatx (01-17-2019)
#252
#253
I think Genesis will be fine. I would imagine a Genesis SUV would be awesome given how great their sedans are.
Like, based on their Sedans, they should slide right below the Germans and Lexus in terms of quality/luxury and just above Acura. I have no reason to believe Genesis can't pull off an amazing SUV.
Like, based on their Sedans, they should slide right below the Germans and Lexus in terms of quality/luxury and just above Acura. I have no reason to believe Genesis can't pull off an amazing SUV.
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00TL-P3.2 (01-17-2019)
#254
Still, @civicdrivr has a 6MT Golf R and with some mods, he said it feels great.
I fully acknowledge the advantage that "automatics" (in all their different forms) have over traditional manuals. I still don't care. I got stuck in bumper to bumper traffic for an hour yesterday and there still was no part of me that wished my car was an automatic. Nothing wrong with them, again, it's just preference.
It just sucks that in Europe, almost everything is available with a manual.
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kurtatx (01-17-2019)
#257
Totally.
Still, @civicdrivr has a 6MT Golf R and with some mods, he said it feels great.
I fully acknowledge the advantage that "automatics" (in all their different forms) have over traditional manuals. I still don't care. I got stuck in bumper to bumper traffic for an hour yesterday and there still was no part of me that wished my car was an automatic. Nothing wrong with them, again, it's just preference.
It just sucks that in Europe, almost everything is available with a manual.
Still, @civicdrivr has a 6MT Golf R and with some mods, he said it feels great.
I fully acknowledge the advantage that "automatics" (in all their different forms) have over traditional manuals. I still don't care. I got stuck in bumper to bumper traffic for an hour yesterday and there still was no part of me that wished my car was an automatic. Nothing wrong with them, again, it's just preference.
It just sucks that in Europe, almost everything is available with a manual.
There's a lot more in Europe that I want than a manual version of most cars...
ZF8 is one of the best transmissions ever made. It's too bad the ZF9 is one of the worst.
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00TL-P3.2 (01-17-2019)
#258
Totally.
Still, @civicdrivr has a 6MT Golf R and with some mods, he said it feels great.
I fully acknowledge the advantage that "automatics" (in all their different forms) have over traditional manuals. I still don't care. I got stuck in bumper to bumper traffic for an hour yesterday and there still was no part of me that wished my car was an automatic. Nothing wrong with them, again, it's just preference.
It just sucks that in Europe, almost everything is available with a manual.
Still, @civicdrivr has a 6MT Golf R and with some mods, he said it feels great.
I fully acknowledge the advantage that "automatics" (in all their different forms) have over traditional manuals. I still don't care. I got stuck in bumper to bumper traffic for an hour yesterday and there still was no part of me that wished my car was an automatic. Nothing wrong with them, again, it's just preference.
It just sucks that in Europe, almost everything is available with a manual.
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civicdrivr (01-17-2019),
Costco (01-17-2019)
#259
Yeah, I've lived and commuted in the metropolitan areas of San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Dallas, Atlanta, Chicago, Detroit, New York, Boston, and Stuttgart over the last 40 some years; always had three pedals under my dash, encountered horrific traffic on an almost daily basis, and never once wished for an autotragic transmission.
But at the same time, the further we stray from full control, the more likely the manual transmission is likely to disappear.
The S3 for example is a great little car, available in manual in Europe but only in DSG in the states.
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kurtatx (01-17-2019)
#260
Of course, ZF made the 9 speed for economy cars while the ZF8 is for luxury models. It's Acura's own dumb fault they used it on their biggest seller.
#261
I think Genesis will be fine. I would imagine a Genesis SUV would be awesome given how great their sedans are.
Like, based on their Sedans, they should slide right below the Germans and Lexus in terms of quality/luxury and just above Acura. I have no reason to believe Genesis can't pull off an amazing SUV.
Like, based on their Sedans, they should slide right below the Germans and Lexus in terms of quality/luxury and just above Acura. I have no reason to believe Genesis can't pull off an amazing SUV.
Once the GV80 hits, I'm sure it'll be a boost for the brand.
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kurtatx (01-17-2019)
#262
Yeah, I've lived and commuted in the metropolitan areas of San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Dallas, Atlanta, Chicago, Detroit, New York, Boston, and Stuttgart over the last 40 some years; always had three pedals under my dash, encountered horrific traffic on an almost daily basis, and never once wished for an autotragic transmission.
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00TL-P3.2 (01-17-2019)
#263
As long as it looks better than the concept I'm sure you're right.
#264
#265
Two things I need to revisit:
- An assertion was made which implied, from the perspective of reliability, that automatic transmissions were better than manual transmissions. Maybe it's just me, but I do not believe I've ever seen any data to suggest automatic transmissions were anything but less reliable over the long haul than a manual transmission.
- A separate comment was made which said something along the lines, a car designed to be equipped with an automatic transmission will be the superior of the same car with a manual transmission added into it as an afterthought. Hmmm, using two examples near and dear to our hearts, please consider the 3G TL and the TLX with the V6 engine; by all accounts, the 6MT versions of the 3G TL were superior to their autotragic brethren in virtually every measurable metric. As for the TLX, I rather doubt there would be terribly many folks lining up to tout the superiority of a ZF9 TLX versus the same car with an old school 6MT.
Last edited by horseshoez; 01-17-2019 at 04:58 PM.
#267
#268
Just having a manual transmission doesn't make a car better than its automatic variant.
Generally, cars with less power and/or lighter weight highlight the advantages of a manual better than bigger, luxurious cars. Smaller cars have a tendency of not being burdened by worrying about passenger carrying ability. Higher redline, lighter flywheel, close gear ratios, optimal pedal placement... those are things usually compromised on with larger cars, because they have a different demographic with other interests.
This is like arguing over boobs vs. butts asses all the way
Generally, cars with less power and/or lighter weight highlight the advantages of a manual better than bigger, luxurious cars. Smaller cars have a tendency of not being burdened by worrying about passenger carrying ability. Higher redline, lighter flywheel, close gear ratios, optimal pedal placement... those are things usually compromised on with larger cars, because they have a different demographic with other interests.
This is like arguing over boobs vs. butts asses all the way
#269
Just having a manual transmission doesn't make a car better than its automatic variant.
Generally, cars with less power and/or lighter weight highlight the advantages of a manual better than bigger, luxurious cars. Smaller cars have a tendency of not being burdened by worrying about passenger carrying ability. Higher redline, lighter flywheel, close gear ratios, optimal pedal placement... those are things usually compromised on with larger cars, because they have a different demographic with other interests.
This is like arguing over boobs vs. butts asses all the way
Generally, cars with less power and/or lighter weight highlight the advantages of a manual better than bigger, luxurious cars. Smaller cars have a tendency of not being burdened by worrying about passenger carrying ability. Higher redline, lighter flywheel, close gear ratios, optimal pedal placement... those are things usually compromised on with larger cars, because they have a different demographic with other interests.
This is like arguing over boobs vs. butts asses all the way
#270
Still, @civicdrivr has a 6MT Golf R and with some mods, he said it feels great.
I fully acknowledge the advantage that "automatics" (in all their different forms) have over traditional manuals. I still don't care. I got stuck in bumper to bumper traffic for an hour yesterday and there still was no part of me that wished my car was an automatic. Nothing wrong with them, again, it's just preference.
Generally, cars with less power and/or lighter weight highlight the advantages of a manual better than bigger, luxurious cars. Smaller cars have a tendency of not being burdened by worrying about passenger carrying ability. Higher redline, lighter flywheel, close gear ratios, optimal pedal placement... those are things usually compromised on with larger cars, because they have a different demographic with other interests.
But CVTs can burn in hell.
Last edited by civicdrivr; 01-17-2019 at 11:30 PM.
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Costco (01-18-2019)
#272
Two things I need to revisit:
- An assertion was made which implied, from the perspective of reliability, that automatic transmissions were better than manual transmissions. Maybe it's just me, but I do not believe I've ever seen any data to suggest automatic transmissions were anything but less reliable over the long haul than a manual transmission.
- A separate comment was made which said something along the lines, a car designed to be equipped with an automatic transmission will be the superior of the same car with a manual transmission added into it as an afterthought. Hmmm, using two examples near and dear to our hearts, please consider the 3G TL and the TLX with the V6 engine; by all accounts, the 6MT versions of the 3G TL were superior to their autotragic brethren in virtually every measurable metric. As for the TLX, I rather doubt there would be terribly many folks lining up to tout the superiority of a ZF9 TLX versus the same car with an old school 6MT.
You know that the SMG in the E60 M5 and the E46 M3 are manual transmissions with a computer actuated clutch right? That's what SMG stands for Sequential MANUAL Gearbox.
The SMG was, and is, a POS just by design and the lack of proper computing power and tuning to make it good. A modern DSG is also basically a computer actuated manual but the tuning of today is far better than before.
Agreed. Nissans are horrible. Honda and Subaru are better but neither is great or even good. Both are merely acceptable for the use case.
Last edited by SamDoe1; 01-18-2019 at 10:13 AM.
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00TL-P3.2 (01-18-2019)
#273
Two things I need to revisit:
- An assertion was made which implied, from the perspective of reliability, that automatic transmissions were better than manual transmissions. Maybe it's just me, but I do not believe I've ever seen any data to suggest automatic transmissions were anything but less reliable over the long haul than a manual transmission.
- A separate comment was made which said something along the lines, a car designed to be equipped with an automatic transmission will be the superior of the same car with a manual transmission added into it as an afterthought. Hmmm, using two examples near and dear to our hearts, please consider the 3G TL and the TLX with the V6 engine; by all accounts, the 6MT versions of the 3G TL were superior to their autotragic brethren in virtually every measurable metric. As for the TLX, I rather doubt there would be terribly many folks lining up to tout the superiority of a ZF9 TLX versus the same car with an old school 6MT.
2. We need to be more clear about superiority. For one thing, Autos are almost always faster now. For another, they manage gear changes based on a set of rules to protect your car from serious issues.
3. Let's be clear: The TLX is not bad because it has an automatic transmission. The TLX v6 drive experience is bad because it has that bad automatic transmission.
Also, if you want to be taken seriously, stop calling it an "autotragic".
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Costco (01-18-2019)
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#275
#276
To be fair, you're living a bit in the past on this one. the 3G TL and the 7G Accord both used a flawed design transmission, similar to how the TLX (and others) use the flawed ZF9. On the flip side, cars that have a ZF8 transmission are lauded to be better to drive (faster and more efficient) than their manual counterparts without the issue of catastrophic failure. Technology has advanced incredibly far in the 10 years since the 3G TL and 7G Accord went out of production and modern automatics are FAR better than they used to be. Comparing a decade old Honda transmission to the best modern German box is a bit of a stretch.
You know that the SMG in the E60 M5 and the E46 M3 are manual transmissions with a computer actuated clutch right? That's what SMG stands for Sequential MANUAL Gearbox.
The SMG was, and is, a POS just by design and the lack of proper computing power and tuning to make it good. A modern DSG is also basically a computer actuated manual but the tuning of today is far better than before.
Agreed. Nissans are horrible. Honda and Subaru are better but neither is great or even good. Both are merely acceptable for the use case.
You know that the SMG in the E60 M5 and the E46 M3 are manual transmissions with a computer actuated clutch right? That's what SMG stands for Sequential MANUAL Gearbox.
The SMG was, and is, a POS just by design and the lack of proper computing power and tuning to make it good. A modern DSG is also basically a computer actuated manual but the tuning of today is far better than before.
Agreed. Nissans are horrible. Honda and Subaru are better but neither is great or even good. Both are merely acceptable for the use case.
Now, if you want to dismiss the ZF9, that just brings us to a different point, developing a modern auto with high efficiency, long term reliability, AND a good driving experience is fraught with significant expense and numerous pitfalls.
The SMG is only a "manual" in name, it is a semi automatic transmission with a manual mode. Yes, it has a manual(esque) mechanical structure, but it is no manual transmission. Ever driven one? They suck.
#277
Meh, automatic, slushbox, automagic, autotragic; call them what you will; I try to inject a bit of levity into most of what I write; sorry if it didn't resonate with you.
#278
Never driven one, but I think the EVO X is better example of the auto being the better trans, if we're going to keep diving down this rabbit hole.
Almost everything I've ever read, says that the MT in the EVO X was such an afterthought, because of how bad it is.
Conversely, I can't imagine buying a WRX/STI with the CVT
Almost everything I've ever read, says that the MT in the EVO X was such an afterthought, because of how bad it is.
Conversely, I can't imagine buying a WRX/STI with the CVT
#279
Never driven one, but I think the EVO X is better example of the auto being the better trans, if we're going to keep diving down this rabbit hole.
Almost everything I've ever read, says that the MT in the EVO X was such an afterthought, because of how bad it is.
Conversely, I can't imagine buying a WRX/STI with the CVT
Almost everything I've ever read, says that the MT in the EVO X was such an afterthought, because of how bad it is.
Conversely, I can't imagine buying a WRX/STI with the CVT
#280
Regarding dismissing my arguments around the TL and the TLX; you missed the point, you claimed a car designed to have an automatic would be better than that same vehicle if a manual transmission had been put in it. I gave you two very good examples where that is patently not true.
Now, if you want to dismiss the ZF9, that just brings us to a different point, developing a modern auto with high efficiency, long term reliability, AND a good driving experience is fraught with significant expense and numerous pitfalls.
The SMG is only a "manual" in name, it is a semi automatic transmission with a manual mode. Yes, it has a manual(esque) mechanical structure, but it is no manual transmission. Ever driven one? They suck.
Now, if you want to dismiss the ZF9, that just brings us to a different point, developing a modern auto with high efficiency, long term reliability, AND a good driving experience is fraught with significant expense and numerous pitfalls.
The SMG is only a "manual" in name, it is a semi automatic transmission with a manual mode. Yes, it has a manual(esque) mechanical structure, but it is no manual transmission. Ever driven one? They suck.
Other than what pushes in the clutch pedal, the SMG is a manual in every other way. There are a lot of people that have swapped an E46 M3 from SMG to manual without changing the actual the transmission. Yes, I've driven one. Yes, they suck. It's not because it's an auto, it's because the software and tuning is terrible. FWIW, manuals are absolutely awful, and perform just like a SMG, if you can't drive one well because YOU end up being the software. The SMG just feels like a manual driven by a 16 year old first learning to drive a stick...and never improves.
The ZF9 is just a bad design with worse software. There are several 10spd gear boxes that get great reviews, the number of gears really isn't that big of a deal.
Last edited by SamDoe1; 01-18-2019 at 01:40 PM.