SamDoe1

Same here. That said Acura does have a lot more than 3 models to sell. My guess (hope?) is that once the GV80 hits, they'll start their own dealership network.

00TL-P3.2

Judging from the 2 closest A/H dealers, the Acura experience is a bit better, just because it's smaller & lower volume. Neither is plagued by the typical lot lizards that accost you as soon as you put the car in P.

SamDoe1

This is one thing that Tesla really got right. Just skip the stupid dealership model.

fiatlux

As much as I hate the dealerships, I think a significant portion of the buying public is so car illiterate that they would not be able to complete a purchase without a salesperson leading them through the process. I doubt they could even make it halfway through the configurator before throwing up their hands in dispair.

oonowindoo

While i agree that Dealership can be skipped, but i also dont see Tesla's model will work for mainstream brands like Honda.... that sells 100k-130k a month vs. 15k monthly sales at Tesla.

They will have to come up with a new hybrid model... that could manage the selling part and the service part for 10x of the volume.. With the demand of test drive among other things, i dont see the # of physical dealership to disappear.. Maybe the sales model will need to be changed.
When Tesla sells 100k units a month, their service center will also need to expand.. aka dealership. The only difference is you dont buy cars there.
The overall ownership experience is still a valid argument... Tesla or not.

Also Tesla's MSRP is non-neogitable... I dont know how Honda or other brands are going to do it... cuz No one is paying their current MSRP...

oonowindoo

Tesla' service center experience is not something to brag about...

You know the usual wait, wait and run around and wait some more type of experience many of us are familiar with...

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yea for sure. Though those are slightly different cars than a regular sedan as they are hatchbacks IIRC.

I understand where you are coming from - that the ES has a different approach. While it's larger than pretty much everyone in its class, almost like the 4g TL,but the ES is significantly less powerful with almost no sportiness to it. It's pretty pricey for what you get too - $40k for a 203hp 4 banger FWD.

May be that's the winning formula - big, nice interior, $40-$55k, 200hp NA 4-banger....imagine the complaints here if the Acura TLX is like that hahaha.

honda_nut

I'm not sure about Canada, but at least in the US, the ES came standard with the V6, which is still decently powerful at 302hp. I believe the ES hybrid is the upgraded engine even though smaller and less powerful. 2021 added the AWD option as the ES250, which surprisingly costs the same as the FWD ES350. You can either have the more powerful V6, or AWD and the 4-cyl, but not both.

Also the ES has a lot of loyal customers and can't beat those reliability ratings. Somehow being related to the Camry and Avalon weirdly works to its favor in this instance. It's just too bad this ended up killing the GS lineup.

fiatlux

Yeah, the GS was caught in no-mans land. If you care about the driving experience, you'd probably get a 5-series, and if you didn't, you'd get an ES and save a load of cash.

SamDoe1

They make it into an Amazon-ish process. Build car online, get price, checkout. Once you show up at the dealership, they have people to help you sign all the forms and away you go. No stupid "finance guy" to deal with.

That has less to do with the model and more to do with the shit reliability of their cars.

oonowindoo

ES is for a completely different targeted group from everyone else in that segment... That formula only works for ES.. and no one else. On the flip side, that reputation of ES is also what keeps many others from buying it in the first place.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yea it's really odd how things work sometimes. Just like a lot of the RWD sports cars. Mustangs and Camaros are absolutely killing it with 70000 and 50000 sales a year. The likes of BRZ, FRS, Miata, never really got to 10000 units a year.

About the Lexus GS, in most of the reviews I've seen, they generally praise the driving dynamics of it, that it's better than most other cars in its class. I guess it was getting long in the tooth though and its engine choices are so so. But ya, the ES is absolutely destroying the GS in sales figures. It's probably more profitable too without using a unique RWD platform.

oonowindoo

It all comes down to price... ES is cheaper... and similar size... similar features...

RWD, performance and driving dynamic mean little to most of the Lexus's customers.

Yumcha

Brand image too. And if the cheaper alternative is a Lexus, 99 out of 100 times, people will buy Lexus.

oonowindoo

why? because

Not to mention most of the ES i saw had halogen headlights before they made LED standard

Cheap

Yumcha

We're just shallow. What can I say?

Yumcha

I'll admit for every Stinger I pass or see, I snicker that it's a poser car.

"Can't afford the real thing...suckas."

Yumcha

I'm sorry. That was awful of me. But, I'm not lying.

oonowindoo

You are only driving a Audi... what would happen to you when you buy a Porsche

Yumcha

oonowindoo

But i gotta say the new ES looks pretty damn good.. if i didnt know any better, i would have thought it is a good sporty car

fiatlux

In other words, it's their version of a FWD TLX A-Spec ?

oonowindoo

I think the new ES F Sport looks a lot better than TLX

YEH

The majority of drivers are not enthusiasts, which is why the ES has long outsold the TL/TLX.

This.

Only full-size FWD in its price segment, and Lexus execs have stated in the past that there isn't much cross-shopping among their models.

Even with the ES alongside it in the Lexus stable, the GS used to sell pretty well - securely in the 3rd spot after the RWD Germans.

But increased competition (Genesis, Cadillac, etc.) ate away at GS sales with other buyers opting for something German which had more power and the latest tech.


The real poser vehicles are the "luxury" models which share much of their FWD underpinnings with their mainstream counterparts (ES-Avalon, RX-Highlander, etc.), with the lux model usually getting updated AFTER the mainstream model (Highlander got updated, the RX is still waiting for its update).

Even more so for models which are sold under the lux brand in some markets and the mainstream brand in others.

Is the GT-R a poser car?

It's branded a Nissan despite being a good bit more expensive than any Infiniti model.

In fact, one can say that it would have been a poser move if Nissan had rebadged it as an Infiniti in the markets Infiniti is available, doing away with the history of the model as a Nissan.

YEH

The Asian makes can't compete with the power-price combo that the domestics can offer with the pony cars.

What also hurts the RWD Lexus models is not having a strong domestic market, so pretty much counting on US sales to justify their existence.

Yumcha

I'm shallow, okay? And I need to feel better about my Hyundaudi Optima. So, zipit.

YEH

^ Need to stop wading in the kiddie pool.

C'mon, the deep end isn't so scary...

SSFTSX

ES hybrids have 10K sales in 2019. I am sure if TLX 4cylinder hybrid is introduced it will take few thousands sales away.
even base TLX with 17inch rims looks better. Lexus F Sport defeat the purpose of luxury ride.

https://pressroom.lexus.com/toyota-m...ear-end-sales/

SamDoe1

^ Shut up.

oonowindoo

TLX 4 cylinder hybrid? are you making shit up again?

Vaporware much?

Yumcha

Let's first GET a TLX 4-banger hybrid and then talk about possible sales?

fiatlux

I'm so grateful for the ignore function.

honda_nut

This gen ES is a very attractive car imo. Probably a much better built car than the TLX too. I briefly checked one out when I was seriously considering a GS before they decided to discontinue it. Couldn't get over the ES stigma, so I passed. My cousin has a 2004 ES330 that's been in the family since new. Drove it a couple years ago with around 200k miles, and it still floated over bumps with absolutely zero rattles. The same can't be said for either of our current Acura's even when they were new. Hell, even the leather on that ES was soft and supple, basically like new.

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

Since creating my account on Jan 2007, this is the 1st time I've used the ignore function and the ones on the list, post in the 2G TLX forum.

biker

I suppose that means you don't get any entertainment value from such posts?

honda_nut

Whatever happened to that dude with the C6 vette that everyone hated lol. Haven't seen him in ages.

I've never posted much but always browsed car talk for entertainment during work hours. Quite a few characters around.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yea the 370z got close to it. I think it was like less than $30k for 330hp+ but it never sold as well as the pony cars. The base pony cars with the 4-banger engines probably make up the bulk of the sales, along with fleet sales. And it goes back to the point that enthusiasts represent too little of the market.

The ES works so well for Lexus lol. They make it super soft so things are less likely to rattle too, giving it a more premium feel at the same time.

oonowindoo

350Z sold pretty well... for a few years... The 370Z is too old... I got my G37 in my last year of college and that is how old 370Z is

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Hahaha yea! and the new one is based on the same platform too. Really looking forward to see what Nissan did to make the car competitive with an old chassis.

YEH

Likely due to the Z being so old now, with the tooling having been paid for.

The underpowered Toyota 86 starts at $27k despite development costs being shared with Subie.