Suzuka Master
Quote:
I didn't include the 2005 TSB's for the GTO only the 2004, and it had 61! You can probably add anorther 10-15 on for this years TSB's most wont show up until the next publication.
The CL type-s had 8 TSB's it's 1st year and approximately 8 every year following.
8 vs 61
TSB's are created by customers with problems. They don't create TSB's for issues that don't exist. Yes, it is a very good gauge.
Your Lexus was a HORRIBLE example, I shot it down previously. Go read it again.
Comparing a Truck (lexus) /w 4wd and a bunch of other crap to a 2 door coupe with basic components is crazy. But even when you do that the Lexus won!!! I'd expect the lexus to lose since it has more things than can go wrong, but it didn't. In 3 years the lexus had 55, that averages out to be 18 a year.
So lets see
In 3years time Lexus has 55
In one year the GTO has 61
In 5 years time the Acura has 44
All of those INCLUDE the vehciles 1st year launch!
How was my example horrible? Usually, safety recalls are dictated by the NTSB or the manufacturer. A problem is a problem no matter whom reports it. Again, TSBs are useless IMO. My 05 GT has had TSBs issued and most don't effect my car. Some are isolated incidents and some early production run problems. Same thing happened with my 00 Maxima. Again, look at quality rankings. Acura is barely above average. Pontiac is a few notches below Acura. We are splitting hairs here. Acura isn't the most reliable brand and neither is Pontiac.Originally Posted by SiGGy
yes, for the 2001 year not to include the last 5 years, BUT EVEN WITH IT it has less. And it has had 5 years to find issues! I didn't include the 2005 TSB's for the GTO only the 2004, and it had 61! You can probably add anorther 10-15 on for this years TSB's most wont show up until the next publication.
The CL type-s had 8 TSB's it's 1st year and approximately 8 every year following.
8 vs 61
TSB's are created by customers with problems. They don't create TSB's for issues that don't exist. Yes, it is a very good gauge.
Your Lexus was a HORRIBLE example, I shot it down previously. Go read it again.
Comparing a Truck (lexus) /w 4wd and a bunch of other crap to a 2 door coupe with basic components is crazy. But even when you do that the Lexus won!!! I'd expect the lexus to lose since it has more things than can go wrong, but it didn't. In 3 years the lexus had 55, that averages out to be 18 a year.
So lets see
In 3years time Lexus has 55
In one year the GTO has 61
In 5 years time the Acura has 44
All of those INCLUDE the vehciles 1st year launch!
FYI...if you look thru the TSBs for the GTO, you can probably throw 10-20 of them out. Many look like technical references for mechanics. I don't have a subscription to AllData, so I can't further investigate. For example:
Body - Engine Compartment Dirtier Than Expected
Lighting - Headlamp Aiming Procedure
Fuel System - Top Tier Gasoline Recommendations
Fuel System - Top Tier Gasolines (Canada)
Cooling System - Coolant Dye Update Information
Maybe GM is more thorough in publishing TSBs???
Moderator Alumnus
Quote:
FYI...if you look thru the TSBs for the GTO, you can probably throw 10-20 of them out. Many look like technical references for mechanics. I don't have a subscription to AllData, so I can't further investigate. For example:
Body - Engine Compartment Dirtier Than Expected
Lighting - Headlamp Aiming Procedure
Fuel System - Top Tier Gasoline Recommendations
Fuel System - Top Tier Gasolines (Canada)
Cooling System - Coolant Dye Update Information
Maybe GM is more thorough in publishing TSBs???
Originally Posted by Maximized
How was my example horrible? Usually, safety recalls are dictated by the NTSB or the manufacturer. A problem is a problem no matter whom reports it. Again, TSBs are useless IMO. My 05 GT has had TSBs issued and most don't effect my car. Some are isolated incidents and some early production run problems. Same thing happened with my 00 Maxima. Again, look at quality rankings. Acura is barely above average. Pontiac is a few notches below Acura. We are splitting hairs here. Acura isn't the most reliable brand and neither is Pontiac.FYI...if you look thru the TSBs for the GTO, you can probably throw 10-20 of them out. Many look like technical references for mechanics. I don't have a subscription to AllData, so I can't further investigate. For example:
Body - Engine Compartment Dirtier Than Expected
Lighting - Headlamp Aiming Procedure
Fuel System - Top Tier Gasoline Recommendations
Fuel System - Top Tier Gasolines (Canada)
Cooling System - Coolant Dye Update Information
Maybe GM is more thorough in publishing TSBs???
Even without those your still in the 50's. You can *also* apply this logic to Acura and Lexus. Making their numbers significantly lower.
TSB's are created through customer complaints and problems found by GM or dealer. They create one if they have X ammount of customers who complain about a specific issue and or it has been found X ammount of times. I don't know what "X" is and or how it's defined internally.
Acura is leaps and bounds ahead of Pontiac in terms of build quality.
http://autos.yahoo.com/consumerrepor...s_hold_up.html
Don't forget that those problems per 100 vehciles is averged between the entire car line. We are comparing specific vehicles.
I'm also confused at the CL-S numbers from alldata, they should be higher than what it shows. I was expecting it to be closer since the CL has a lot of issues to start. Like 40-50 CLS to 60 GTO.
You might be right on the publishing TSBs. I don't believe that the CL has 12 the more that I think about it.
Either way Acura > Pontiac in terms of build quality. If your going to compare GM's good vehicle line it's Buick, not pontiac.
Moderator Alumnus
I should have added that US cars are getting better and better every year!
Suzuka Master
Quote:
TSB's are created through customer complaints and problems found by GM or dealer. They create one if they have X ammount of customers who complain about a specific issue and or it has been found X ammount of times. I don't know what "X" is and or how it's defined internally.
Acura is leaps and bounds ahead of Pontiac in terms of build quality.
http://autos.yahoo.com/consumerrepor...s_hold_up.html
Don't forget that those problems per 100 vehciles is averged between the entire car line. We are comparing specific vehicles.
I'm also confused at the CL-S numbers from alldata, they should be higher than what it shows. I was expecting it to be closer since the CL has a lot of issues to start. Like 40-50 CLS to 60 GTO.
You might be right on the publishing TSBs. I don't believe that the CL has 12 the more that I think about it.
Either way Acura > Pontiac in terms of build quality. If your going to compare GM's good vehicle line it's Buick, not pontiac.
Here is where I am getting my data from: http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases...asp?ID=2005069Originally Posted by SiGGy
Even without those your still in the 50's. You can *also* apply this logic to Acura and Lexus. Making their numbers significantly lower. TSB's are created through customer complaints and problems found by GM or dealer. They create one if they have X ammount of customers who complain about a specific issue and or it has been found X ammount of times. I don't know what "X" is and or how it's defined internally.
Acura is leaps and bounds ahead of Pontiac in terms of build quality.
http://autos.yahoo.com/consumerrepor...s_hold_up.html
Don't forget that those problems per 100 vehciles is averged between the entire car line. We are comparing specific vehicles.
I'm also confused at the CL-S numbers from alldata, they should be higher than what it shows. I was expecting it to be closer since the CL has a lot of issues to start. Like 40-50 CLS to 60 GTO.
You might be right on the publishing TSBs. I don't believe that the CL has 12 the more that I think about it.
Either way Acura > Pontiac in terms of build quality. If your going to compare GM's good vehicle line it's Buick, not pontiac.
Acura is above the industry average and Pontiac is below. Other GM makes are above the average. I honestly don't know how many complaints need to be made before a TSB is issued. I know on my 00 Maxima the ignition coils went bad. A lot of Maxima owners complained and Nissan never issued a TSB.
A TSB, such as "Engine Comparment Dirty" IMO shouldn't be counted. If I had a subscription to ALL-Data, it would be interesting to see if many of the TSB's were legitimate quality/reliability problem. I am aware that Acura quality is better than Pontiacs. In the GTO's vs. CL-S case, it's honestly a matter of opinion. My original post was pointing out the fact that each brand of vehicles has it's gremlins. Hence, the comment on the Auto transmission. Lexus has it's share and so does BMW. My dad has had BMW's for the last 15 years and all of them have had electrical related problems. BMW is a pretty reliable car per JD Power. American cars have to be reliable or they won't sell. Todays consumers won't put up with shitty products and Detroit learned that.
Suzuka Master
Quote:
GTO is not built well, the interior is not comparable to a CL-S. Two of my friends had them, both of them got rid of the car in less than a year.
Why?
Paint problems
electrical problems
suspension problems
leaks
squeaks
They basically were giving the GTO away. Neighter of my friends paid more than $20k for one brand new.
Comparing a near luxury interior to a sport class is kinda crazy man. Both are nice but they can't be compared really.
I like the concept of the GTO, lots of power in a small chassis. But I can't get over the cavalier looks of the car.
Siggy, I've always respected your posts but I call BS on buying one for 20K. If that was the case, every car enthusiast on the forum would own one. Originally Posted by SiGGy
I'm not knocking your car but...GTO is not built well, the interior is not comparable to a CL-S. Two of my friends had them, both of them got rid of the car in less than a year.
Why?
Paint problems
electrical problems
suspension problems
leaks
squeaks
They basically were giving the GTO away. Neighter of my friends paid more than $20k for one brand new.
Comparing a near luxury interior to a sport class is kinda crazy man. Both are nice but they can't be compared really.
I like the concept of the GTO, lots of power in a small chassis. But I can't get over the cavalier looks of the car.
And yes, the interior is nicer in my GTO. Why, because after 6,000 miles I don't have a single rattle, I have better electronics, and the seats are MUCH more comfortable.
Again, don't knock it until you try it.
If I were to compare my GTO to my Acura friends- such as the people on here- the are hundreds of hundreds of failures.
Suzuka Master
Quote:
WHICH STILL ARE LESS THAN THE GTO HAD IN 1 YEAR!!!
61 for GTO in one year!
44 for CL-S in 5 years of TSBs
At that rate the GTO will have about 300 compared to the 44 the Acura did after 5 years.
your killing me here... at least know what your posting represents. Lets wait another 3-4 years and compare again
Man, I can't keep doing this all day. It's been fun chatting with ya...
That's only because the damn Japs never admitted in a TSB that something wasn't right. (like my transmission that was replaced at 7500 and 1600 miles).Originally Posted by SiGGy
That link mr. smarty includes 5 years of TSBs for the CL. WHICH STILL ARE LESS THAN THE GTO HAD IN 1 YEAR!!!
61 for GTO in one year!
44 for CL-S in 5 years of TSBs
At that rate the GTO will have about 300 compared to the 44 the Acura did after 5 years.
your killing me here... at least know what your posting represents. Lets wait another 3-4 years and compare again
Man, I can't keep doing this all day. It's been fun chatting with ya...
Suzuka Master
Quote:
TSB's are created through customer complaints and problems found by GM or dealer. They create one if they have X ammount of customers who complain about a specific issue and or it has been found X ammount of times. I don't know what "X" is and or how it's defined internally.
Acura is leaps and bounds ahead of Pontiac in terms of build quality.
http://autos.yahoo.com/consumerrepor...s_hold_up.html
Don't forget that those problems per 100 vehciles is averged between the entire car line. We are comparing specific vehicles.
I'm also confused at the CL-S numbers from alldata, they should be higher than what it shows. I was expecting it to be closer since the CL has a lot of issues to start. Like 40-50 CLS to 60 GTO.
You might be right on the publishing TSBs. I don't believe that the CL has 12 the more that I think about it.
Either way Acura > Pontiac in terms of build quality. If your going to compare GM's good vehicle line it's Buick, not pontiac.
Originally Posted by SiGGy
Even without those your still in the 50's. You can *also* apply this logic to Acura and Lexus. Making their numbers significantly lower. TSB's are created through customer complaints and problems found by GM or dealer. They create one if they have X ammount of customers who complain about a specific issue and or it has been found X ammount of times. I don't know what "X" is and or how it's defined internally.
Acura is leaps and bounds ahead of Pontiac in terms of build quality.
http://autos.yahoo.com/consumerrepor...s_hold_up.html
Don't forget that those problems per 100 vehciles is averged between the entire car line. We are comparing specific vehicles.
I'm also confused at the CL-S numbers from alldata, they should be higher than what it shows. I was expecting it to be closer since the CL has a lot of issues to start. Like 40-50 CLS to 60 GTO.
You might be right on the publishing TSBs. I don't believe that the CL has 12 the more that I think about it.
Either way Acura > Pontiac in terms of build quality. If your going to compare GM's good vehicle line it's Buick, not pontiac.
FYI... It's not really a Pontic... It's a rebadged Holded Monaro (HSV) which retail for over 50K US in Australia. If you have ever looked at your "friends: GTO's you can tell this by the interior by the electroluminescent lights, the rectangular heating and air conditioning outlets, AND NO RATTLES.
Again, you post their sales slips for a 05 GTO for less than 20K and I'll give you $200.
Suzuka Master
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doom878
Has the 400hp and aggressive styling package (scooped hood, body kit, etc) helped current GTO sales?
Yes it has... Most dealership can't keep them in stock (this is information from GTO forums which I am a member of)
Team Owner
Quote:
Well, not quite 20,000 but it was discussed last year.Originally Posted by Ashburner
Siggy, I've always respected your posts but I call BS on buying one for 20K. If that was the case, every car enthusiast on the forum would own one.
One local dealer near me was doing 10,000-Dollar rebates and here was what was in stock at the time:
10,000 off puts them at about 23,000
Read this thread: https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...0&page=1&pp=25
Suzuka Master
Quote:
One local dealer near me was doing 10,000-Dollar rebates and here was what was in stock at the time:
10,000 off puts them at about 23,000
Read this thread: https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...0&page=1&pp=25
Originally Posted by Shawn S
Well, not quite 20,000 but it was discussed last year.One local dealer near me was doing 10,000-Dollar rebates and here was what was in stock at the time:
10,000 off puts them at about 23,000
Read this thread: https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...0&page=1&pp=25
OK, that's understandable as 2004 was the first year. In fact, I didn't like the 04's as didn't the 18,000 people that snatched up the 05's before some 04's were sold.
If I have presented my case wrong- then I am sorry. I was speaking of my 05 GTO and not of the 04.
Nonetheless, I still feel the GTO is a much better built car. I have owned both- Unlike you- so I can actually make a real comparison.
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Yeah I saw on ebay also dealers selling them for mid $20's. There were some posts on them. I saw a red one today. 
Safety Car
Quote:
That's a steal!
Damn right!Originally Posted by SpeedyV6
So 350 hp LS1 2004's are still in stock? For only $21.5K? That's a steal!
Moderator Alumnus
Quote:
If I have presented my case wrong- then I am sorry. I was speaking of my 05 GTO and not of the 04.
Nonetheless, I still feel the GTO is a much better built car. I have owned both- Unlike you- so I can actually make a real comparison.
Originally Posted by Ashburner
OK, that's understandable as 2004 was the first year. In fact, I didn't like the 04's as didn't the 18,000 people that snatched up the 05's before some 04's were sold. If I have presented my case wrong- then I am sorry. I was speaking of my 05 GTO and not of the 04.
Nonetheless, I still feel the GTO is a much better built car. I have owned both- Unlike you- so I can actually make a real comparison.
Both of my friends also got a dealer invoice discount on top of that discount (co-deal with the company they work for). They paid less than $22k out the door man taxes title and all.
Moderator Alumnus
Quote:
If I have presented my case wrong- then I am sorry. I was speaking of my 05 GTO and not of the 04.
Nonetheless, I still feel the GTO is a much better built car. I have owned both- Unlike you- so I can actually make a real comparison.
Originally Posted by Ashburner
OK, that's understandable as 2004 was the first year. In fact, I didn't like the 04's as didn't the 18,000 people that snatched up the 05's before some 04's were sold. If I have presented my case wrong- then I am sorry. I was speaking of my 05 GTO and not of the 04.
Nonetheless, I still feel the GTO is a much better built car. I have owned both- Unlike you- so I can actually make a real comparison.
Where's my apology for calling BS on me?
I may be a lot of things; but I'm not a liar. I'm definetly wrong sometimes which I'll admit, but I don't make up shit.
Race Director
^^ i dunno i thought it was kinda clear ash was talking about the 05' not 04'. Of course the 04's are getting blown out; why would you pay close to what an 05 costs for one when the 05 is so much better.
21k for an 04 is a bargain though.
21k for an 04 is a bargain though.
I see this thread 6 pages long and I thought there were next gen. Camaro pics here 
Moderator Alumnus
Quote:
21k for an 04 is a bargain though.
Originally Posted by zeroday
^^ i dunno i thought it was kinda clear ash was talking about the 05' not 04'. Of course the 04's are getting blown out; why would you pay close to what an 05 costs for one when the 05 is so much better.21k for an 04 is a bargain though.
I don't see what's to know, I said both of my friends paid X for their GTO's. Before he rushed off and called BS he should have been a bit better informed. The GTO has only been stateside for 2 years now. I would think a GTO owner would know that they had 30%+ discounts on the vehicles already.
He was focused on his 05 car, not the topic on hand.
Moderator Alumnus
Quote:
Originally Posted by gavriil
I see this thread 6 pages long and I thought there were next gen. Camaro pics here
Nope just a boring conversation on how Pontiac is superior to Acura in build quality.
I'm sure someone will *hopefully* liven the thread up with some Camaro news
Race Director
Quote:
He was focused on his 05 car, not the topic on hand.
after re-reading i see your point. i just think ash was focused on his gto; the 05'. anyway so how bout that new camaro...Originally Posted by SiGGy
I don't see what's to know, I said both of my friends paid X for their GTO's. Before he rushed off and called BS he should have been a bit better informed. The GTO has only been stateside for 2 years now. I would think a GTO owner would know that they had 30%+ discounts on the vehicles already.He was focused on his 05 car, not the topic on hand.
Quote:
I'm sure someone will *hopefully* liven the thread up with some Camaro news
Originally Posted by SiGGy
Nope just a boring conversation on how Pontiac is superior to Acura in build quality.I'm sure someone will *hopefully* liven the thread up with some Camaro news
luvs redheads!
did you see the new pics of the 2dr charger at sema??
that may resemble what a camaro COULD look like in modern times.
that may resemble what a camaro COULD look like in modern times.
luvs redheads!
PS----
the acura vs. GM......
Gm is going bankrupt maybe?
and acura is revising its whole lineup and bringing it to japan..so...get my drift.
NOw..back to camaro.
the acura vs. GM......
Gm is going bankrupt maybe?
and acura is revising its whole lineup and bringing it to japan..so...get my drift.
NOw..back to camaro.
Pro
Damn, ou pussies garbage, this thread with CL-S vs. GTO 
Actually, 05+ GTO is nice with awesome power and decent interior , but it's too heavy 
Back to Camaro....from now on (see pics below
)
Actually, 05+ GTO is nice with awesome power and decent interior
, but it's too heavy Back to Camaro....from now on (see pics below
)
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Quote:
Heh.. Originally Posted by Ashburner
And yes, the interior is nicer in my GTO. Why, because after 6,000 miles I don't have a single rattle, I have better electronics, and the seats are MUCH more comfortable.
My '97 TL has nearly 140,000 miles with not a single rattle and I'm quite sure the seats are more comfortable (seat comfort is subjective anyway)
Oh and no transmission problems
In addition, my '05 TL seems to be holding up quite well.
Sorry but a GTO just doesnt cut it in this kind of war.
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Quote:
My '97 TL has nearly 140,000 miles with not a single rattle and I'm quite sure the seats are more comfortable (seat comfort is subjective anyway)
Oh and no transmission problems
In addition, my '05 TL seems to be holding up quite well.
Sorry but a GTO just doesnt cut it in this kind of war.
2nd gen bad luck? Originally Posted by Ken1997TL
Heh.. My '97 TL has nearly 140,000 miles with not a single rattle and I'm quite sure the seats are more comfortable (seat comfort is subjective anyway)
Oh and no transmission problems
In addition, my '05 TL seems to be holding up quite well.
Sorry but a GTO just doesnt cut it in this kind of war.
Safety Car
Quote:
That is the hawtness. They shouldn't change a thing on it... just bring it to life. It looks like it'd run right over a mustang.Originally Posted by av6ent
Now, this version I WANT NOW
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Thats my take on it. The 4 speed auto tranny on the C series V6 is nearly bulletproof if its treated right.Originally Posted by Doom878
2nd gen bad luck?
Changin bulbs since '73
Wow, that Camaro looks sweet. If it looks like that, I might have to consider owning one again!
Drifting
Looks great (the latest cgi pics)
But I'm not really feeling the rounded tail lights. If they're going to go retro with that front end I think they should match it with the similar rectangular tails of that generation
But I'm not really feeling the rounded tail lights. If they're going to go retro with that front end I think they should match it with the similar rectangular tails of that generation
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I don't know why. I keep seeing C3 in there somewhere. Maybe the rear fenders or the roof?
Suzuka Master
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IRS, LS2, T56, and 3400 lbs please!!!Originally Posted by Loseit
IRS.......please!!!!!!!!!!!1
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I think the headlights need to be moved more outwards toward the edge.
Safety Car
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I doubt it. The Mustang doesn't have it, and would probably beat the Camaro on price because of it.Originally Posted by Loseit
IRS.......please!!!!!!!!!!!1
Is GM Planning a Camaro Comeback? - - Source: The Car Connection
Quote:
...
“So where’s the Chevrolet Camaro?” we keep asking, everytime we snag a moment of General Motors Vice Chairman Bob Lutz’s attention. Apparently, while GM’s car czar isn’t ready to give us the details, it seems Chevy’s long-lamented pony car is set to rise again. TheCarConnection.com has learned that a concept Camaro is all but certain to appear at the North American International Auto Show next month. And if it receives a positive reception, except GM to deliver a production version for the 2009 model year.
It’s been more than three years since the Camaro was pulled from production, a victim of mediocre design and slumping sales. At one time, Chevy’s pony car gave Mustang a serious run for its money, but over the years, Camaro started to look like so many other GM’s design-by-committee products.
If the shots we’re seeing (but which we cannot yet legally provide TCC readers) are any indication, GM has learned its lesson. There’ll be no more jellybean muscle cars, along the lines of the forgettable new GTO. The concept is a lot more aerodynamic than the angular bricks that dominated Woodward Ave. 40 years ago, but it clearly picks up the angular “heritage” styling cues of the mid-’60s. You’ll know this is a Camaro from first sight.
Different sources conflict on some of the details, such as whether the new Camaro will be based on the Kappa “architecture” used for the Pontiac Solstice roadster, or a revised version of the Zeta platform. We believe Kappa is simply be too small, and even stretched would have a hard time handling all the brute power GM will build into a revived Camaro. So that means a rear-drive Zeta, significantly redesigned from the version now underpinning the much-maligned GTO. As for powertrain, expect a range of engines, including a Corvette-derived LS1. Considering Ford’s getting ready to punch out an impressive 450 hp from the Shelby Cobra, we’d be shocked if GM doesn’t intend to go it one better with Camaro.
We’ll have more details as they become available, maybe even a pic, if our spy photographers can track some down.
Posted by Paul Eisenstein on Tuesday, December 13th, 2005 at 3:21 pm
...
“So where’s the Chevrolet Camaro?” we keep asking, everytime we snag a moment of General Motors Vice Chairman Bob Lutz’s attention. Apparently, while GM’s car czar isn’t ready to give us the details, it seems Chevy’s long-lamented pony car is set to rise again. TheCarConnection.com has learned that a concept Camaro is all but certain to appear at the North American International Auto Show next month. And if it receives a positive reception, except GM to deliver a production version for the 2009 model year.
It’s been more than three years since the Camaro was pulled from production, a victim of mediocre design and slumping sales. At one time, Chevy’s pony car gave Mustang a serious run for its money, but over the years, Camaro started to look like so many other GM’s design-by-committee products.
If the shots we’re seeing (but which we cannot yet legally provide TCC readers) are any indication, GM has learned its lesson. There’ll be no more jellybean muscle cars, along the lines of the forgettable new GTO. The concept is a lot more aerodynamic than the angular bricks that dominated Woodward Ave. 40 years ago, but it clearly picks up the angular “heritage” styling cues of the mid-’60s. You’ll know this is a Camaro from first sight.
Different sources conflict on some of the details, such as whether the new Camaro will be based on the Kappa “architecture” used for the Pontiac Solstice roadster, or a revised version of the Zeta platform. We believe Kappa is simply be too small, and even stretched would have a hard time handling all the brute power GM will build into a revived Camaro. So that means a rear-drive Zeta, significantly redesigned from the version now underpinning the much-maligned GTO. As for powertrain, expect a range of engines, including a Corvette-derived LS1. Considering Ford’s getting ready to punch out an impressive 450 hp from the Shelby Cobra, we’d be shocked if GM doesn’t intend to go it one better with Camaro.
We’ll have more details as they become available, maybe even a pic, if our spy photographers can track some down.
Posted by Paul Eisenstein on Tuesday, December 13th, 2005 at 3:21 pm
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