Fibonacci

I agree, very silly for Acura to worry about cannibalizing RLX sales. Someone quick, send a memo to Mike Ackavitti: Dude, you only sold 387 RLX's in March. Ergo, there is no risk of cannibalization.

Fibonacci

After six months of underperforming sales, incentives will take real world prices on four bangers down to 30k. I predict fully loaded V6 ADVANCES at 45k by year end too. But if you guys want to sex it up with side skirts...


DEEPLY DISCOUNTED POWER PLENUMS FOR MANKIND

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

$55k for a turbo 4-cyl with optional xenon headlights ? sign me up. the roundel adds 50hp.

oonowindoo

why can't they just have a lower MSRP to start off with. So at least they will have a selling point for marketing.

i think TLX will have a good 1st year of sales. I don't think it will underperform like RLX but it is not going to be anywhere near what it is capable of.

oonowindoo

Sure but you probably will have to wait in line because there are many people in front of you.

While you wait, go check out the exceptional value RLX. It is about the same price but there is no line.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

since when is waiting in line a selling point? sorry dude, but $55k for a turbo 4-cyl, even with optional xenon headlights, sounds like a colossal rip off to me.

ttribe

It is a colossal rip off. You don't seem to be catching the point, however. BMW can get away with it because of the overall quality of their lineup and the way they've built up the marque (and so can, Audi, MB, et al). Acura cant' get away with this, because they have neither. Acura has to put out a consistently (and substantially) superior product to get back into the game, and they simply refuse to do so.

oonowindoo

if you have to wait to buy ANYTHING, that is probably the biggest selling point.

it is a rip off. but don't you find it funny that only less than 400 RLX was sold last month when it provides such value? especially with "DEEPLY DISCOUNTED POWER PLENUMS FOR MANKIND"?

You know what is a bigger rip off? 640, $100k will get you 300hp. but i think it sold more than RLX last month.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

you talk as if ripping people off is something acura should aspire to. sounds great.

ttribe

Oh my...you're either blissfully unaware of the realities of a competitive market, or so blinded by your desire to defend the Acura brand that you'll ignore any facts necessary to prop up the name. I can't tell which.

oonowindoo

i think he is 16 years old.

Do you even know what does ripping people off mean?

It means if the buyers are UNAWARE of the high price and the existence of Acura. when people are willingly to pay for premium price for something, then it is a premium product regardless of how it is made or what is inside. The sad truth is if you put BMW badge on RLX, it will probably sell 10x more than right now. But Acura is not BMW, so it needs to do better than BMW at the cheaper price.
People on Hyundai forum are saying the same thing about people like you who drive Acura.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

yeah, let's all hope that one day acura can charge $55k (adj for inflation and brand hype) for a turbo 4-cyl with optional xenon headlights.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

joined the forum at age 9.

ttribe

Let me spell it out - if Acura doesn't do something to make itself more competitive within the lux market (the VERY market its execs are saying they are aiming for), then its irrelevance will lead to its extinction. Will you be happy when they cease to exist because the "average" buyer of a lux vehicle places more value on the cache' associated with a brand name than you do? If so, keep defending their mediocrity with snarky comments and no substantive insights. It's working out very well for both you and them.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

substantive insight = how to rip off your customers and get away with it, the bmw way. sorry dude, no thanks.

like I said before, I think if the tlx delivers the same value that the 3g tl delivered it will be a success. on that, I think the jury is still out.

oonowindoo

for 35k you get 260 hp V6 in 3G.
for 35k you get 208hp I4 in TLX.

So exactly what kind of values are you talking about?

Against 3G, it has less power but cost the same
Against competitors, it is likely to be cheaper but it also has less.

Value = same or better product at the cheaper price (Hyundai)
If you offer less everything for cheaper price, that is just CHEAPER, not value. (Acura)

Costco

Clearly there's something that isn't working for Acura. Even if it's the badge on the grille. There's simply more to it than just that. You can compare any Apple mobile device to an equivalent competitor, and despite being more expensive, Apple just sells that much more. Whatever it is, it doesn't matter... Apple is making $$$.

Whether you wanna compare it according to price or segment (size), the 3 and 5-series sedans each outsell the TL, don't they?

And if you want to compare lineups empirically - here in automotive discussion, people who own neither BMW or Acura lean towards BMW.

So Acura provides more value, that's great. But if it's not enough to get customers to come home with one...

ttribe

Well, dude, since you seem to be unable to address the conditions under which the lux auto market actually operates, it's probably best for you to bow out.

Maybe it will. The ultimate outcome is an unknown at this point. However, I'm suggesting a couple of things - 1) 2014 isn't 2004 and the market has changed pretty dramatically. If Acura, or its current set of fans, thinks it can get away with putting out another mediocre car (like the RLX) with just a couple extra standard features over its competitors anymore, I believe they (and you) are sadly mistaken; and 2), if the "leaked" news is any indicator, the TLX will likely NOT be the success you are hoping for. The power numbers are disappointing. The leaked pictures have been disappointing. The path to success in the lux auto market isn't laden with a string of disappointments. So far, it isn't looking good.

I believe the separation of the Acura brand into its own company is a two-edged sword - it allows more autonomy, yes. But, it also allows Honda management to finally cut the cord while minimizing damage to the remaining elements of the Honda brand. If things don't turn around very soon (1-3 years), I think Acura will be another dead brand in the automotive history books. And I think that's a sad outcome.

Moog-Type-S

2.4L has 206hp / 182 torque.....egads!

oonowindoo

The same people will say "I like my RLX because its exclusivity, there are way too many 3 series, 5 series, IS, GS, C class and E Class on the road. I actually care about what is inside my car other than a badge" Yet they refused to buy Hyundai even though it has more at the cheaper price because It is a Hyundai.....

Goosew

iTrader: (1)

I can only assume that he's adjusting for inflation in his argument. It is not appropriate to take dollar for dollar with the market as it was, and as it is.

Considering that there has been about 11.5% inflation in the market from 2008 (I'll use the end of the 3G life cycle for arguments sake), and you take the 35k price of the TLX (as you quoted), and adjust DOWN for current inflation,

The BASE TLX (at current market market rate adjusted for inflation to 2008), would sit around. 31.4K

so although you're getting "less" car, you're paying "less" (corrected for the market).

Unless I did this all wrong, and I've confused myself in the process

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

ttribe

11% inflation in which market? Cars, alone, or all goods? I ask because I know the 10 year rate of inflation according to the CPI is around 2.4%.

oonowindoo

The inflation argument can apply to every manufacture so it is going to be too complicated. But assuming that i agree with you with the inflation calculation, then
What you said just proved my point. You are getting less car and you are paying less. How is that a value buy?

If someone wants to pay less for a lesser car, Accord will be the perfect. Actually Accord V6 at 30k will be pay less for a "More car" than 4 banger TLX.
Then some will argue, but Accord is a Honda, not Acura. You have to pay more for better brand/service, blah blah... yet they are making argument against Germans because they think they are getting "ripped off".
It is like when they are talking about Honda/Hyundai Vs. Acura, they have BMW mentality. But when they talk about Acura Vs. Other luxury brand, they have the Honda mentality.

Goosew

iTrader: (1)

I took the inflation for all goods (couldn't find for auto's alone), and I used the total cumulative inflation from 2008 - present.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I think the claim is 1.5s faster to 60mph compared to a TSX 5AT. That car does 0-60mph in mid 7's to flat 8s. To be on the conservative side then, 6.5 - 7s is probably about right for the TLX 2.4.

Not exactly impossible since Honda tends to underrate their engines lately. The Accord I4 6MT with 185hp@ 3300lb is doing 0-60mph in mid 6's all day long. With 2 extra gears, DCT, extra 21hp, I'd imagine that's enough to offset the 200lb weight penalty?


It's not really the old TSX engine. It's more of an improved version of the Accord's engine. This is totally expected.

The 2.0T was never expected to come out right away. At best, it might come out next year or during MMC when it's ready.

I was hoping the RLX's engine would make its way into the TLX. It's too bad they chose the MDX one. 310hp sounds much better than 290hp psychologically.

The way I see this TLX 2.4 is that it is supposed to go head on with 320i, IS250, CTS 2.5 etc. I think the pricing vs features is key.

ttribe

Cumulative...got it. The average annual rate has been 2.4%. The cumulative number would reflect all the compounding, etc.

Goosew

iTrader: (1)

Actually, you said something completely different which is why I even opened my mouth

maybe i misunderstood.

Goosew

iTrader: (1)

So I don't get it? Did I do it wrong? Doesn't it make sense to take cumulative? As relative inflation is based off of previous years' values??

oonowindoo

I think there is a word for that...
Hypocrite

ttribe

I didn't check the math, but I think your reasoning is correct. I was just trying to understand why we were so far apart, but the fact that you were shooting for a cumulative number (which makes sense) didn't occur to me when I first read your post and all I could think of was the annual number.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

If the average annual inflation rate is 2.4%..then here are the numbers?
2008: $35000
2009 $35840
2010 $36700
2011 $37580
2012 $38482
2013 $39406
2014 $40352
2015 $41320

That means a $35k TL in 2008 would cost $41k in 2015.

And here is another set of numbers:

2008 $29646
2009 $30357
2010 $31086
2011 $31832
2012 $32596
2013 $33378
2014 $34179
2015 $35000

If the TLX starts at $35k in 2015, that's equivalent to a starting price of $29.7k in 2008. For comparison, in 2008, a TSX started at $28.2k.

oonowindoo

you are better than the guy earlier. You actually confused me now.

oonowindoo

like i said earlier, all other competitors are still starting at low to mid $30s. Acura still has more standard features like back in 2006-2008 than its competitors and starting price is still about the same.

Not much has changed. you can apply the inflation to its competitors so in a way they are all "value buys now" The difference is other brand's replacement are all significantly better than the car they had in 2006-2008. Maybe with the exception of the new C class. Shit is ugly but at least it has better engine, interior and pretty much everything else. I can't say the same about 3G TL and TLX.

Goosew

iTrader: (1)

LOL.. If it makes you feel any better, I may have just confused myself.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Why aim at the bottom of the market instead of where they need to focus, which is the A4, upcoming C300, 328i, and CTS 2.0T? Aiming for the bottom of the market begets a product that is towards the bottom of the market. And I suspect that when you actually look at sales numbers, most people skip the CTS 2.5 and 320i for the better value that the CTS 2.0T and 328i provide.

VR1

Well they have to have a car that aims at the bottom of the segment so people like me can buy them. And they have a 328i competitor as well in the TLX SH-AWD which has ~50 more hp.

oonowindoo

I thought it was 208hp 4 banger or 290hp V6. Where did the 258hp TLX come from?

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

Hey they have a ILX if you want something entry level. It looks ly.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Shot in the dark here, but if the car they built was $500 more but had 215hp and 190 lb-ft of torque, would you be more, or less, inclined to be interested in it?