96TL

I'm thinking of getting some new 12's. I want something that really rocks and can handle ALOT of power. Of course I don't want to spend too much money. My friend just picked up a pair of 10" Round Solo Barics for $300. This store happened to have 1 pair of 10's left. They really rock and sound clear. He has a set of 12's too but I want to research a little more first. I want subs that can handle about 500-600 watts RMS. What do you guys think I should go with?

Wampum

JL Audio w7
Eclipse Titanium Xmax:1.75" one way!!
Alumapro
Boston Pro 12.5

I am sure with the power you are going to supply none of these would be a slouch in the low end category

96TL

I think that I have too much power for the Alumapros. JLW7's are way too expensive. I've been thinking of the Bostons though. Have you ever heard them?

Wampum

Heard them in a car but did not get a chance to turn them up.

I have owned 3-8w6's, 4-10w1's, 3-10w6's, 2-12w3, 2-15w1, 1-15w6.

I like each set up, and each one slammed.

Closer

Bostons are tight, accurate and take up the least amount of room
in a sealed box. If you want the thump and serious power handling,
go eclipse.

96TL

Hmmm. I dont know what to get. I'm thinking between these subs below. I think the Bostons are winning. I want to try something different. I'm gonna wait for a few more opinions though. Yo Ron, where are you bro?

JLW7 (still think they're too expensive)
Boston Pro 12.5
Alumapro Alchemy
Infinity Perfect
Eclipse Titanium

Wampum

I don't think you could go wrong with the Boston's. Those things are monsters!

Closer

My system as it looks now (waiting for all parts to come in)

Kenwood Excelon 6.5 separates in front/rear
3 Kenwood Execelon Amps
and I was thinking of getting a kenwood sub just for brand backing,
but instead I'll probably end up getting a Boston 10.5 pro
in a sealed box. You can't beat a tight hitting Boston in a .5
cubic foot box. All the amps will be hidden so the only thing
showing would be the sub and speaker line. Absolutely no
sacrifice in space and I can take the sucker out in about 5 seconds
flat.

B-Lo

Well there are plenty. Whats your budget/ I would say any dd series , Ground zero nuclear, Idmax, Atomic shocker, and Adire shivas(Great budget sub)

96TL

I'm not sure how much I'll spend, it depends on the subs I find. I've never heard of any of those brand names except for DD and I never knew anyone who had those. They're pretty expensive too. I was gonna go with Boston Pro Series subs but I read a few reviews and it seems like the rubber ring seperates from the cone alot. I don't want subs that are gonna give me problems. I'm used to my RF Power DVCs that everyone swears are junk but they never give me problems.

Wampum

I wouldn't worry about Boston's Products. They are warranteed and have some of the best customer service I have ever seen. I put a screwdriver threw a boston pro 6 1/2, sent it back and they sent me a brand new one. NO CHARGE, and they sent it two day air. Thats some great service.

B-Lo

I owned atomic and they are a great sub and company to deal with. A vast majority of the cars in the db drag racing had atomic subs. I seriously would consider adire shiva. Get them here www.ampmanaudio.com. Kirk neil is a great guy to deal with. The shivas are 115 shipped. THey sound great both spl and sq wise. Check it out. You never heard of Image dynamics before? Another great company with amazing products. Ck out www.elitecaraudio.com for informartion on all of the subs I mentioned. eople there own all of the subs there and are true adiophiles. I like going with less heard of brands because everyone and there mother has RF Jl and what not. Iver hears boston product before but from what I heard they are great.

jbrown

JL Audio brought their new GTI to our shop today, it has two 13.5" W7's and DAMN, THAT SH!T IS LOUD! Trust me man it's worth the extra dough, and the 10's or 12's would work with only 500-600 watts. You want these subs! The Bostons would be one of the last on my list, the Eclipse Titaniums are great, and so is the IDMAX, that would be my second choice. Here is my opinion on the situation:

1. JLW7 (I DON'T think they're too expensive)
2. Image Dynamics ID MAX
3. Eclipse Titanium :P
4. Alumapro Alchemy
5. Something other than Infinity or Boston
6. Something else other than Infinity or Boston
7. Infinity Perfect
8. Boston Pro 12.5

Let me qualify my opinion with the following facts. I have contributed to several IASCA-winning cars and trucks and also designed two badass systems with Image Dynamics subs,
1. An Explorer with 6 IDQ-12's (~$180.00 ea) 153dB in competition. (also featured in Auto Sound & Security)
2. A Suburban with 6 IDQ-15's (~$230.00 ea) 150dB in competition. (Won 1st Place at 1998 Spring Break Nationals for Novice 601+ in Sound Q AND Sound Q+ click here for IASCA results )
I assisted on design, setup and/or installation at various times from 1997-1999 for the following IASCA competitors:
Fredric Gerolimatos
Dennis Backherms (1998 Spring Break and SISC Nov 601+)
Robert Cone
Michael Jolick (Finals 1998 Nov 151-300)
Leandre Mike (Finals 1997 Ama, Finals 1998 Ama 601+)
Bruce Thibodeau (Finals 1997 Nov 601+, 1998 Ama 601+)
Bill Noonan
Dwayne Blackwood
Scott Buwalda (Finals 1997 Pro 1-150)
I encourage you to look at their scores on the IASCA website.

Austin519

jbrown:
We should hook up...I've been IASCA'ing for awhile now You tasted the 13.5 w7's eh? Yeah well they're about 3x what I can get 12 w6's for...$400 vs. $130...but that's just shop price...more for those retailers out there. You'll see me IASCA'ing this car at the 2002 shows...I'll see ya there.

And by the way...I can't believe that you didn't mention Kove Audio Armageddons....for shame

Austin519

jbrown

I'm 99% sure I'm going to SBN this year in March, but not sure if I'm competing yet, depends on the quantity of leftover flow when I'm done going faster. Thinking about the new Pro Street 601+ class, looks easy to win.

As for the dough, considering that a 13W7 has over 7dB MORE peak output than a 15W6, you should really be comparing those prices since a 12W6 isn't even in the same league. Hell, a 12W7 whoops the sh!t out of a 12W6 (+8.5dB!), and that's tough to do. Basically, one 12W7 can get almost as loud as THREE 12W6's! DAMN! And if your'e a dealer, you should be worrying about accommodation price, not cost, but I think your numbers are a little off.

I don't have any personal experience with the Kove's, but I have sat in a few cars with them, and they are definitely LOUD. I just don't think they sound good.

Hey 96TL, a couple of 10W7's would be seriously loud, and with 5-600 watts each, they will be really tight and accurate on music, too. At least give them a serious consideration before you say they are too expensive.

96TL

I already did take that into consideration. By saying that they're too expensive, I dont mean they're not worth the price, I just mean straight out they're too expensive. From what I'm hearing 12's are gonna run about $400-$450 EACH. I want 3 12's and I'm not spending over a grand on subs. I'm not in this for shows, its just for my own use. If they end up being cheaper and they are as loud as they say they're gonna be, then 2 12's might be enough for me. I'm still researching though. I might just get 3 JL W6's.

jbrown

Cool deal man, it's your car, get what you like and are comfortable spending money on, I just wanted to lend my experienced opinion instead of blurting out the unrealistic dreams of pre-teens who don't even have cars and only know what they read in magazine ads. I'm not selling anything here, but a few subs have been good to me and I wanted to share. I'm sure you'll do well, just pick what makes YOU happy. And I'm thinkin' that a grand in West Palm Beach buys 50 full-contact lap dances, now THAT'S happiness!

Austin519

jbrown:
"I'm 99% sure I'm going to SBN this year in March, but not sure if I'm competing yet, depends on the quantity of leftover flow when I'm done going faster."
Sweet man...keep me updated and let me know how it was when you go...as I doubt I'll be ready by March.

I've kept in good contact with some JL friends of mine. The VERY least I can get a 10w7 for is $400, and for a 12w7 $600, and a 13(.5)w7 for $800. I just rechecked. The numbers aren't off I promise. Check for yourself Sucks they're that much. Way out of my price range for now.

"I don't have any personal experience with the Kove's, but I have sat in a few cars with them, and they are definitely LOUD. I just don't think they sound good. "
They sure are....but SQ is a personal preference...so I can't really comment one way or the other .

I'm actually not a dealer...but I do get dealer prices through some really really good hookups in NY.

"blurting out the unrealistic dreams of pre-teens who don't even have cars and only know what they read in magazine ads. "
Heh...I was one of those kids once ya know...and as for the lap dances...recommendations?

96TL:
You can do 3 12w6's, and it will pound, and it will beat any similarly classed system (not some nut with 6 JL 13w7's). And it will sound GOOD. Personally I like the new w7's...but they scare me in a way. They just sound a lot like the boomy bass Rockford Fosgate is known for, and that's not quality...of course I heard it from their first model. I will say though, they do bump...but anything that costs 3x a JL 12w6 should be able to outbump 3 JL 12w6's...I'd consider w7's only if you have $$$...or if you are concerned about space maybe drop down to 10 w7's....I'm thinking about that myself but doubt I will...I like the look of 3 big subs...heh.

Austin519

96TL

OK. You guys seem to know what you're talking about. What subs would YOU get? I want DEEP, POUNDING bass that doesnt sound like crap. My RF Power DVCs have bass like that, but it just doesnt sound that great. Will 3 JL 12W6's give me deep bass like my RF's? If not, what do you think will? I'm not looking to compete, I just dont want to be able to breathe in my car. Keep in mind I dont want to buy a new amp.

Austin519

Ah, so you fell victim to what I said about RF subs eh? Boomy bass that does nothing more than rumble...all SPL zero SQ. The JL subs will rock your world...period. If they don't I'll buy them from you

Austin519

96TL

You're 100% right. Boomy bass, ZERO SQ. Alright, I was just looking at www.buyloud.com. The Eclipse Titaniums caught my attention as well as Alumapro Alchemys. What do you think is the best way for me to go between these 3 subs? I'm sorry for changing my mind on brand names and asking so many questions, but I really dont want to waste my money like I did on the RFs. I paid like $600 for them when they first came out. Anyway, I need subs that I can wire 3 correctly and still get enough power from my amp. Here are my options. I want 3 subs. (I'm sure you know that by now)

JL 12W6 - 6 ohm DVC
Eclipse Titanium - 4 ohm SVC or 4 ohm DVC (dont think I could wire 3)
Alumapro Alchemy - 4 ohm SVC, 8 ohm SVC or 6 ohm DVC

jbrown

Sh!t, you can't go wrong with that! You should be able to work a deal for three 12W6's at your local JL dealer for $600 clams, maybe a little more or less depending on the dealer. In NY many places try to compete with price rather than quality, and the box can make or break your end result. Seriously. I redesigned a few boxes for people and have gained over 12dB without changing amps, wiring or location. I got 8dB once with three 15W6's just from fixing the port layout!

I recommend a ported fiberglassed box all the way back, facing forward, slightly angled up, subs in the middle, two ports, one on each end, balance is the key. I have to check the JL Enclosure guide, but as I recall 2.25-2.5 cu. ft per sub (6.75-7.5 cu. ft. total) tuned to 32-34Hz should rock your world. Maybe a little higher 36-38Hz would be louder, but at the expense of low-frequency extension.

I did three 12W0's in my little brother's car on a PPI 2150 (~600 watts total) and he was doing 142-145 dB in a similar setup, but port in font of subs in center, amps behind the seat.

jbrown

What amp are you using? 12W3's can be louder than W6's in some applications.

Austin519

jbrown:
"You should be able to work a deal for three 12W6's at your local JL dealer for $600 clams, maybe a little more or less depending on the dealer"
Actually I can get them shipped anywhere in the US for $150 apiece but he said he could get them for less...so I guess he's not worried about the price tag. Hence my interest in what crazy retailer was selling them that low...no one ever does

Also, 96TL, jbrown brought a good point up...through some weird goings on over at JL, the 12 w3 is more "advanced" than the 12 w6, and actually has .3 dB over the 12 w6. You're looking at two subs...the 12 w3 has more excursion (Xmax), and takes 50 watts less. I've heard it both ways...but it may be something for you to consider.

Yet then again...I heard that a w6 will still bust a w3. That is actually something I have yet to figure out. Either way...these subs will beat most anything out there. That is why you see a good solid 33% (a huge percentage) of competitors at IASCA shows use them. There's a reason for that...I believe the w3 is better sealed and the w6 is better ported if I'm not mistaken.

Austin519

12 w3:
Nominal Diameter: 12 inches (300 mm)
Continuous Power Handling: 250 Watts
Voice Coil: 2.25" diameter, 4-layer, Kapton former
Available Configurations: Dual 2 ohm, Dual 4 ohm or Dual 6 ohm
Xmax (one-way, linear): 0.46"-0.51" (11.7-13.0 mm) depending on specific model
Sealed Enclosure Range: 1.00-1.50 cu.ft. (28.3-42.0 liters)
Ported Enclosure Range: 2.00-3.00 cu.ft. (57.0-85.0 liters)
VRC² Technology: YES

12 w6:
Nominal Diameter: 12 inches (300 mm)
Continuous Power Handling: 300 Watts
Voice Coil: 2.5" diameter, 4-layer, Kapton former
Available Configurations: Dual 6 ohm
Xmax (one-way, linear): 0.44" (11.1 mm)
Sealed Enclosure Range: 0.75-1.75 cu.ft. (21.0-49.5 liters)
Ported Enclosure Range: 1.50-2.50 cu.ft. (42.5-71.0 liters)
VRC² Technology: NO

96TL

Theres a block where there are a bunch of car stereo shops. They all have to compete with each other so they sell things for unbelievable prices. The trick is to go in and ask for prices then say you'll be right back. Then they chase you out the door. I usually go back and forth from 2-3 stores. These guys know everyone does that to see who sells them cheaper so they drop the price. I guess as long as they make a few bucks they dont care. Oh well, good for me.

Anyway, I was planning on going with a sealed box with about 1.00 cu. feet per chamber. Will I get more bass with ported box? I don't think I have enough room for a ported box with 3 subs. Also, are you guys saying I should go with the JL's over the Eclipse Titaniums & Alumapro Alchemy's? BTW, I am using a RF 1100A2 to power all 3 subs.

jbrown

Just make sure you are buying from an authorized dealer instead of someone buying from a cut-rate distributor, regardless of the brand. JL has EXCELLENT warranty policies, and a good dealer will really take good care of you. Also keep in mind that profit is what keeps the doors open and the store in business. The cheapest price doesn't always turn out to be the best deal, but definitely don't pay any more than you have to. I don't work in our car audio department any more, but I know we never sell 12W6's below $199 because they are worth it, and so are we.

I got a 7.5+ cu. ft. box in my kid brother's '94 Accord, and if he folded the seat down, he could set stuff in the front part of the trunk on the amp rack. A ported box will fit if you do it with fiberglass and use the spare tire well (no more spare, get AAA). Also putting the sub box all the way back and firing it forward will help prevent ghetto trunk rattles and eliminate the need to seal the trunk from the rest of the car. If you are gonna go sealed, probably consider 1.25 to 1.5 cu. ft. depending on the JL sub chosen (I don't know the proper sizes for Eclipse or Alumapro). Ported will definitely be louder, especially with Rap/Bass music, and with a powerful amp (which you already have) it will be really clean too and sound great on Alternative and R&B. Sealed will be cleaner and easier to build and sound good on Country and Classical. Sealed will also handle more power, and don't take offense, but your amp will NOT overpower 12W3's or 12W6's, even in a ported enclosure. It would only damage them if the gains were set incorrectly and it started clipping.

Yes, Alumapro's parent company (Syntronic Instruments) manufactures some of the high-end subs we use in home audio ($2K-5K each with enclosure). They are VERY similar to the Alchemy 10's and 12's, and the M16 too. The problem is that when they bottom out, the former hits the back plate making a popping noise. Not only is this annoying, it is bad for the speaker since it can damage the former. The JL doesn't do this due to it's bumped back plate. The JL uses their proprietary VRC collar to dissipate heat (W0, W3, and W7 only) and Alumapro uses their aluminum cone, both work well. The Eclipse Titanium is (and so are all Eclipse DVC's) only available in dual 4-ohm voice coils, so you couldn't do three of them without putting a little extra strain on your amp. Also with W3's, you save a little dough for lap dances! If either of you are ever in Palm Beach, I will hook you up with the right places for quality debauchery

A good amp, but probably not enough to get the most from 12W7's. Should ROCK some 12W3's or W6's though.

Austin519

96TL:
jbrown has basically said everything I would have said, and some. Pretty d@mn impressive too jbrown...makes me want to paste your small essay to a lot of newbie car audio guys...I told you we need to hook up and hang out sometime yes? IASCA and all that? Yeah okay well WE DO. In fact, I don't understand why you haven't answered one of my questions about what I am about to do with car audio...so give me some advice.

jbrown:
I currently have 2 JL 12 w6's, one JL XR400CX (center channel setup), and two RF 800a2 Powers (2000 model). I need a 600a5 or a5 power to match them so as not to get the new ugly 2001 RF's. See or hear of any let me know. Here are the groups that I have to make choices in:

1) Go grab 2 sets of JL XR653CS, refab custom door panels; wait and grab 2 sets of JL XR653CSi (updated version) in 4 months, refab custom door panels; grab 2 sets of JL XR650CX, keep door panels
2) Buy one more JL 12 w6, install 3 total; sell two 12 w6's, buy 2/3 10w7's, install 2/3 total; sell two 12 w6's, buy two 12 w7's, install 2 total
3) Make fiberglass ported reflex firing through Bose sub hole; make fiberglass bandpass reflex firing through Bose sub hole

Alright so one from each category...and remember, this is for SoundQ competition, but I'm leaning away from spending 1.5 g's on two 12 w7's.

96TL:
If it's an authorized retailer don't fret. I've seen most retailers near me charge at least $199...but don't worry about $150 or less...I can always get prices like that from my online buddies. You still didn't mention the exact price tag by the way . Jbrown's people sell them, along with most places I know because they're worth it, and it means they get to make about $80 off of each one also , depending upon the regional price. I'd definitely say a bandpass box...people swear by ported, sealed, and bandpass...but I can tell you a finely tuned bandpass will outbump a sealed or plain ported reflex any day (you know it's true jbrown). There are pitfalls to all designs, so it's up to you. I will say however bandpass is going to be the biggest box size, then ported, then sealed.

I seem to be giving you advice when I haven't even decided on one myself but I'd say make a 10 layer fiberglass ported reflex box. Go grab 3 JL 12w3's. AT 250 watts apiece, your amp would be more comfortable powering those...but what you have to realize is that if you get 3 subs rated at 600 watts, or rated at 300 watts...if your amp pushes either you'll still get all you amp can give most likely, so the 50 watts between the w3's and the w6's isn't a big deal.

Austin519

96TL

Thank you jbrown & Austin519. You guys have been very informative. You took time out to give me your opinions and I appreciate that. Now the only thing I have to figure out is to get W3's or W6's. Thanks again.

Closer

You damn kids and your booming bass.

:p

Stylin Silver Sled

MMATS Juggernauts or the Diamond Subs.

jbrown

Actually, he wants SPL AND SQ, the jugs are SPL only and the Diamonds are good SQ and weak SPL, but thanks for playing. Come back when you can't stay as long. It looks like you put a lot of thought into your recommendation, do you even know what amp he has? 'Cuz it ain't runnin' more than one Juggernaut, but that's okay since two jugs are out of his financial comfort zone, which you obviously didn't take the time to read and find out either.

Man, I hate flaming a moderator, but come on, sometimes it is better to NOT let us know that you don't know, you know?

Austin519

jbrown:
The cruelty!!! Wow man...vent that pent up anger . In the words of Tsang Sung (mortal kombat)....FATALITY! Stylin Silver Sled, I apologize for my forthright compadre heh heh.

96TL:
I hope we did help...good luck man and keep us updated. I really would get the w3's though. Definitely a better performance/cost ratio...and the fact that they outbump w6's...

Closer:
Not to pick a bone but I pride my own ride in SQ, not SPL...hence I'd rather hear a symphony perfectly reproduced then let everyone 6 blocks down know I'm listening to DMX!

96TL

So you think I should go with the W3's? BTW, I can probably get W6's for about $140. I'll let you know the exact price as soon as I know for sure. They ask $175 for them. Please, I can shake them down, TRUST ME. Sorry I didn't answer your question earlier, I got too involved with which subs to get and didn't realize it. Also, I know you guys think I should have a box made to spec, but are there ANY pre-fab boxes that can do the job? I was looking on www.jlaudio.com and they dont seem to sell unloaded boxes and I can't find any good ones for 3 12's on different websites. JL does have one that I like but it comes loaded with W0's. Heres the LINK

jbrown

First off, sorry to Stylin' for the flame, but I just get tired of people spouting off generalized opinions without considering what fits the application. Both are good speakers in their relative arenas, but neither fits 96TL's requirements.

96TL, I think a custom box will most likely look better, fit better, and sound better than a prefab. JL's prefabs are great, I've been to the factory and the CNC construction is VERY impressive. But you've got a nice looking car, it deserves a nice looking box, something trimmed out and tied into a sweet amp rack with color-matched carpet, flush-mounted subs and amps, you know, something that looks like it was made for YOUR car.

Also, I can't believe we didn't suggest the 12W3's sooner, they are a GREAT value and will probably be a little louder than the W6's and due to their lighter cones, possibly a little tighter. The VRC technology will also help them take a little more abuse, too.

And last but not least, I agree completely with Austin519, I truly hope we helped, after all, isn't that the intention of the forums?

Good luck!

Stylin Silver Sled

You are right, i am guilty of not reading the entire thread but those were the two subs (loud) that came to mind first.

I have not had a chance to hear the W7's yet, but I am sure it is a great product. I have had nothing but JL subs in my cars. I am thinking of upgrading to the W7's in my fiberglass enclosure. I thought he just asked a general question about subs.

You are right, they do not fit 96s applications but again, I thought he was just asking a general question.

I do agree though, either the W6 or the W3 is a great choice. I have also heard the PG subs and they do not sound all togehter bad either. But JL's would be my first choice.

jbrown, where in Florida is your store?

jbrown

My shop is the great and mythical Audio Advisors in West Palm Beach. I posted some of our show and competition history earlier in the thread.

Stylin Silver Sled

My friend Eric got his bmw done there (3 series) with the 3 JL 8s in the rear deck.

My friend Scott also got his Tahoe Sport done there.

I love your guys work. Clean installs and great service!

jbrown

Thanks a lot for the props, it took lots of work to get a good rep, but business is slow in the car dept. We still do the really nice cars, but the day-to-day stuff is cramped by the better stock systems that are much more difficult to swap out. I do design work in our home dept now in mega-million dollar houses. We actually have 63 employees now, and only 5 are in car audio. Our installers are amazing though, Tom has been with us for 12 years and Bobby has been with us for over four years. They do such impressive work, it nuts.

Stylin Silver Sled

No problem. I actually might come see you guys for a few things. I have to get a nice sand filled a/v component rack along with some cables and a pronto remote or something similar. also what subs do you sell? I am thinking of the 12" velodyne. Its going to be on carpet.

I have the Panasonic 34" widescreen HDTV, B&W components, Yamaha RXV-1000 processor, Mitsu HDTV reciever, Yamaha Progressive scan dvd player, ps2 (optical and component out)

i just need a good sub to round finish it off. should i go with a B&W sub or with a velodyne or something else?

StreetEffectz

Yes, you guys definitely do nice work.....I saw Eric's in person when he had it (the 3 8s in the rear deck of the BMW)....VERY NICE