Southbound

There seems to be some discussion on the "Speakers" thread as to whether or not new speakers need a "rainshield" installed around them. I was told by several installers and POLK audio customer service that they NEVER use rainshields on the new material speakers. They were only needed with older cardboard cone speakers. (like our POS BOSE)

I thought that perhaps we should solicit the opinions of some other people on the board who have performed speaker upgrades. I'd rather correct this advice earlier than later if it really should be an issue of concern.

We don't want to have to have a SOUTHBOUND RECALL on speaker installations, now do we?

SO, does anybody out there feel that it is necessary to install some sort of rainshield over their newly installed speaker upgrades? If so, what did you use, and what was your motivation? How hard was it to achieve? Did the use of them come from a definite need, or just a "better safe than sorry" mindset?

Thanks for all of your input!

SuperDave

Southbound,

Please, no more over the top, truly informative, outstanding, LONG speaker posts.

I just bought a pair of Kicker RMB8 (thanks for the idea DrCookie) midbasses to put in the doors. I will definitely put a half rain shield to cover the top of the speakers. I wouldn't use the foam baffles from Crutchfield that cover the entire speaker as I would want them to be installed freeair as most mids are designed.

I do find it necessary to cover my new speakers because I would want them to last as long as possible. Yes most speakers are designed for the environment of a door. However, I have an engineering background and I feel the need to go above and beyond to make sure things are done right. So I would have to say a rainshield for me is a "better safe than sorry" mindset.

David

dian1511

SuperDave:

What is a half rain shield made of? I have two foam baffles for the 6.5s. Can I just cut them in some way to make them rain shields? Will the sound be poor if I have them totally enclosed in the foam baffles?

Thanks,

Ian

SuperDave

Well, (car) audio is more art than science. By that I mean you should try it one way and then try it the other and see which you like best. Seriously, it all depends on the speaker, car door, etc. and how they interact with each other. Some speakers might sound better with the entire foam baffle behind them and others like more of a free air application.

I plan to make my rainshields out of fiberglass. I will have to make a custom half-moon form to make the rain shields. You however, already have a form if you were to cut the foam baffles in half and apply fiberglass resin and mat to it to give it a little strength. The foam baffle may be strong enough to hold its shape without the fiberglass but if not, just add the fiberglass. If you need to learn about fiberglassing, go to www.elitecaraudio.com and do a search on fiberglass. In a nutshell fiberglass uses a combination of resin/epoxy and fibers for strength.

Let us know if you try anything and how it turned out for you.

David

Southbound

Gotcha, I hear ya Dave...

I'll let you handle this one. My future posts will be held down to one sentence.... OR MORE! LOL :p

How about I keep them down to one paragraph? God knows I'm trying to back out of this gracefully. I've got waaaaay too much work at work backed up.

Thanks everybody!

SuperDave

Southbound,

Just giving you a hard time and poking a little fun! You did open the door after all - "SOUTHBOUND RECALL"!

Enough people responded to your speaker post that they were learning a lot from your posts. I learned a lot too for that matter. Please don't change your posting ways.

David

2007AcuraRL

I used a rainshield when i installed Polk MOMO 6.5's in my doors. I just cut the cup portion of an XTC foam baffle in half. Leave the rest of it alone (ie. the foam ring portion which fits behind the woofer flange) and it will hold just fine. I used the shield because in my last car, one of my Inifinity woofers crapped out after about 3 years. In the winter months, the left woofer wouldnt play unless you smacked the door with your hand. I am sure it was a fine layer of moisture that got into the voice coil and held the woofer when it froze to ice. So anyway, bottom line here is that it doesnt hurt to be extra careful and use the rainshield. Personally, i doubt it will effect the sound of the woofer in a negative way, since the bottom half is still open for infinite baffle design.

dian1511

found this response interesting from a guy who has used the baffles unaltered:


http://askjeeves.com/main/metaAnswer...t=020422070610



please tell me if the link works

ian

dian1511

Sorry guys, had to get an actual link outside of AskJeeves. Here it is from the Portland University Website:

http://ece.pdx.edu/~thunder5/Caraudio/carXTCbaffles

heyrandy

Southbound -

Why don't you call up Polk (800-377-7655) and see what they say. When I called, I was more interested in whether or not the "shields" I have would screw up the sound (not so much if they do anything good).

Just ask if water can get into the voice coil, etc. (I'm sure you can think up a few more questions ).

Let us know what you find!

Southbound

I just got off the phone with POLK technical support regarding the use of a rainshield for the DX-6 speaker.

I spoke to three different tech support people and an installer. Jason, Ken, Kim and I forget the other name...

They all told me that it wouldn't be a necessary concern to install a rainshield with these speakers. They are made out of a polymer mica material and are not damaged by water. If I knew I had a leaky door and they were a cardboard cone, then I might want to be concerned.

I told them about the 2002 Acura TL-S BOSE system that I was replacing. They all thought that this speaker would work well in that application due to its efficiency. They did warn me to lookout for a funky EQ response with the stock system. I told them that I was aware of the pre-emphasized high frequency response, but that I had already replaced these speakers and was pleased with the sound in spite of the extra EQ.

We spoke a lot about the BOSE spacer/basket and the merits of trying to salvage it for some sort of rainshield "just in case" verses cutting the basket completely off and letting the back of the speaker port into free air for better sound characteristics. They ALL seemed to agree that this speaker was designed to operate more effectively in a free air environment. Therefore, none of them recommended saving the existing basket for an overly cautious rainshield application. They said that if the basket was too constrictive and if there wasn't sufficient free air space around the rear of the cone, then some audio deficiencies would start to occur. The midrange would start to sound harsh and lacking, and the bass definition would not be nearly what it should be, especially at higher volumes. I let them know that when I just cut the louvers off of the back of the stock basket that there was VERY LITTLE free air space around the back of the speaker. I could only see about 1/4 of an inch clearance around the magnet into the back of the cone. They all whinced at that and said, That doesn't sound good. They'd all rather risk the minimal water damage potential, than confine the speaker to that extreme.

One guy said, that if I was THAT persistant with wanting to have a rainshield, maybe I could talk to Acura or Honda about getting the insert that is used on the non-BOSE system and perhaps it would fit with more free air space.... But again, he wouldn't worry about it unless it was a VERY old car and the door was known to leak a lot. Then I reminded him that he had told me that the polymer mica speakers were virtually immune to water damage and he said... "Oh Yeah, I wouldn't worry about it then" I told them that the door hole cutout was only a little over 4 inches, and they then agreed that it didn't sound like much could be done to provide a working rainshield without constricting the speaker too much with that size of cutout anyway. It was their feeling that a five inch cutout would be needed in order to accomplish both a rainshield and adequate free air space behind the speaker. Again, if it came down to having one or the other, they all opted for an install that favored the largest free air space verses worrying about a rainshield with these polymer mica cones. "The magnet protects the voicecoil, so why are you so worried?", they kept asking. I told them that I was asking for others, and then I asked how they would recommend installing a speaker from scratch in a door that had never had a speaker there before... They replied, make a 5 inch cutout like the template suggests, and use a spacer if necessary for depth purposes, then MAKE SURE TO MAKE A TIGHT SEAL WITH THE DOOR FRAME. You don't want the acoustical soundwaves from the rear of the speaker coming around and cancelling the forward air movement. That is why there is NO PUNCH when you play the speaker out in the total open just setting on the floorboard, etc. IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO SEAL THE BACK FROM THE FRONT of a speaker in order to obtain a tight response. Otherwise the forward and reverse soundwaves just acoustically cancel each other. It is also important that the rear of the speaker has unrestricted free air space to displace all of the air that will be moved by the speaker, especially at high volumes and down at bass frequencies. A woofer would never work smoothly with a plastic shroud tightly crowding it, they replied. It would be bucking itself acoustically...

SO THERE YOU HAVE IT STRAIGHT FROM THE HORSES MOUTH! I kept asking so many questions that they kept passing me off to someone else who might better know the answer. They were quite helpful and very polite. I hope they were correct in their responses. But, I gotta trust that the info coming from four guys out of the factory is fairly credible.

I never listened to my speakers with them constricted inside of the stock basket. I cut the basket all the way off as a matter of principle before I installed them into the doors. SO, I can't tell you how much true difference the extra free air space really makes... BUT all I can say is... I mounted mine this way and am very impressed with the outcome. TLluver mounted his the same way, and appeared very impressed with his results, and he listens to hiphop and hard rock with lots of bass! If Ian and HeyRandy both mounted theirs without removing all of the basket and they both have some sound quality issues... THEN PERHAPS AS PREDICTED, THE FREE AIR SPACE IS INDEED ESSENTIAL AND KEY TO THE SUCCESS OF THIS MOD? It was my first rule of thumb to follow before the rainshield issue ever came up. I just felt an obligation to cover all bases of concern before recommending bad practices to others. I think I have now done that.

If anybody does go back in to cut out the remainder of the spacer basket to provide maximum free air space, I'd go ahead and add a sheet of dynamat to the door frame while you're at it. I think it really helped to tighten up my bass response a bit. I know that in theory, it really ought to help being mounted to a dampening material as opposed to a vibrating/rattling metallic door. And if you go that far, solder my 100ohm/1Watt resistor in series with a .05uF Ceramic disc cap across the speaker terminals before re-installing it. This can all be soldered on the terminal strip used to mount the tweeter crossover cap and wires without interfering with the actual male terminals that the speaker wires slide on to. IT COULDN'T BE ANY EASIER TO DO THE MOD ON THESE SPEAKERS...

Oh Yeah, I asked them if they knew why the DX-6 had been discontinued? They said that they were already using the DX-6 construction materials in the DX3065 component series, and the EX3 coaxial series had been selling so well for less money, that nobody was really buying the DX-6s. They said that dealers didn't like to stock both types of coaxials. More people were buying the $139.00 EX365 speaker than the $169.00 DX-6 speaker, so it was a marketing decision to phase it out. They all told me that if I could still find them online... GO GET THEM! THEY WERE GREAT SPEAKERS! Otherwise the EX3 series would be my close second choice, unless I wanted to go the component route... They admitted that the new GXR series is definitely a lesser ECONOMY replacement product.

Hope this helps to put some issues and concerns to rest.

As always, I'm here to help when I can, but I can't keep writing these journals... It's like a BAD DISEASE! I've got other WORK WORK to do...
Southbound

Southbound

Ian,
Before you ask... I read your link from the guy who used XTC foam baffles surrounding his speakers for rainshields. Since foam is somewhat porous and not a hard solid, perhaps these baffles could be a compromise solution. They would provide some water protection without completely blocking the free air movement. But as soon as you start completly enclosing the speaker with fiberglass, or glue, or RTV silicone... You are going to begin to affect the sound properties.

His statement more or less contradicts itself... He says that the speaker without the foam baffle enclosure can be made to reach its X-max. That means that the cone has moved as far as it is capable, and that the voice coil has bottomed out. THIS IS THE MAX POWER THAT THAT SPEAKER CAN HANDLE... If the one with the baffle doesn't reach its max extension and doesn't bottom out... then it isn't being allowed to move unrestricted. The baffles are acoustically loading the speaker and building up internal pressure that bucks the movement of the voicecoil and associated cone. Therefore, where he thinks that he can drive the baffled speaker with more power, IT IS ONLY BECAUSE THE SPEAKER IS BEING HELD BACK AND MADE TO ACT LESS EFFICIENT and is also probably not operating in its linear range. Because of the acoustical back loading, the damping factor would be poor and the speaker would not be able to start and stop its motion instantaneously with the applied signal. I would expect the response to be somewhat muffled and muddy in this circumstance?

But at moderate levels, the compromise might not be that objectionable. If you really feel the need to protect your speakers from the elements, that is a decision that you will have to make on your own based upon the best data that you can obtain. I'm sure you'll find a lot of conflicting information to filter through. Blocking the rear of your speakers won't really destroy anything, but it's kind of like cutting the horse power of your TL-S down to 150HP or something.... Would you really want to do that, when you know it's capable of 260HP? SO why would you install speakers in a fashion that wouldn't allow them to perform up to their optimum? It's like protecting something that you can't really use...

It's a catch-22 gamble. (Unless you do serious mods to the door frame cutout) You either confine the sound quality of a speaker to protect it from moisture, but now it isn't allowed to perform for you... So what does it matter if it gets ruined or not, since you aren't able to fully enjoy it anyway? OR else you forget about the rainshield caution and gamble that the Acura doors won't leak and that these speakers are resistant to water damage, and go ahead and install them in a way to take full advantage of their performance... That's about the only advice that I can give you on this subject. You've gotta take some risks to ENJOY life...

MY SOLUTION? I've bought 3 pairs. I've got a pair for the rears and another "spare pair" in case this water issue does come back to haunt me.... It's cheap insurance at $100 bucks a pop

GOOD LUCK with what ever approach you take!
Southbound

Southbound

Don't get me totally wrong...

Foam baffles can be a GOOD thing. It would be nice if the entire inside of the door frame were lined with some sort of acoustical absorbant material. When you take apart your home speaker woofer enclosure, you will find a bunch of batting material in there to absorb the sound.


The acoustical loading is a tricky thing... YOU DON'T WANT TO SMOTHER THE REAR OF THE SPEAKER. But you idealy don't want it enclosed in a coffee can either. And that is essentially what the door frame is. You don't want sound waves being bounced off the back of the enclosure and causing relfected acoustical loading to the rear of the speaker either.

The car environment is far from an ideal situation for premium audio response.

Obviously, there will be LOTS of compromises, and you just have to know "when to say when" each person has his or her own point of where things are "good enough". A lot of these issues are minimal in the reality environment of a car rolling down the highway at 80mph.

Therefore, I went back and read the post from 2002AcuraTL. His idea of using HALF of a XTC FOAM BAFFLE may be the best compromise after all. IT would provide the bottom of the speaker to vent into the door frame while providing some measure of water protection. The top portion may actually deflect some of the rear sound down and away from being directly bounced back off of the far side of the inner door frame. Acoustical absorption is very important as well. That probably played a large part in the guy's post from Portland in smooting out his bass response. NORMALLY, smothering the rear of the woofer would cause it to become muddy, but in his case, perhaps the acoustical absorption of the foam actually helped keep the metallic door frame reflections down to the point of being an advantage???? See, even I'm confused now!!!...!!!!

The BOTTOM BOTTOM line is that you would like to see your speakers have free air space around the rear of them, but you would also like to see them pointed into some sort of acoustical absorbant material on both sides, at an appropriate distance... NOW YOU'RE MAKING MUSIC! Then find a way to incorporate a rainshield for good measure without detrimentally affecting this delicate balance, and you're dialed in!

OR else, just do like most people and know when to say F*** it... I'm living with it this way. It's good enough!

I'm fried! Southbound

PAW

Southbound

Do you talk as much as you type? Some enterprising Acura-TL member should start selling Cliff note versions of you posts. j/k Thanks for all the info, seriously.

Southbound

It's one of those spooky things. I'm one of those guys who never speaks up at parties, UNTIL you get me started, then you can't stop me...

It's the same thing with these damn posts! I've got "clackitis" of the fingers... SOMEBODY STOP ME

dian1511

Southbound:

I went in, only on the passenger's side, last night and reinstalled the Polk, correctly this time.

I cut out the factory rainshield, leaving only the spacer. taped around the door speaker hole, and across the door frame, taped the leads after putting them back again. Placed rubber weather stripping around the back of the spacer between the metal of the door and around the speaker spacer connection. I'm actually thinking of putting a layer of silicone sealer tonight around both seals just to be more anal about it. I had spoken to Ron (Street E) yesterday. BTW, he has a cool East coast accent compared to my flat Midwestern accent. If I lived closer to his shop, I'd have my TL there in a heartbeat. He was very generous with his time and help. But I digress.

So, no rainshield! Now I'm legit with this thread

Closed up the door and tried the speakers. I must admit that sans factory basket/rainshield does make a difference. The speaker seems deeper and slightly louder, fuller. It is better. It sounds like it is using the entire air cavity of the door now. The driver unreinstalled side seems slightly anemic. I will cure the anemia tonight. It's actually kind of fun going into the doors and redoing the install. It went much quicker this time.

After talking to Ron, I went back to the audio shop and the guy was willing to shift the polks to the back and add JL components to the front, use LOCs and Ron had suggested tapping the speaker wires, and add a JL four channel amp for $1,150. I've decided that 1: he's still too high and 2: I can live with my amateur $100 upgrade.

Southbound

Ian,
Thanks for the feedback about the improved sound of the POLK DX-6s by providing more space "to breath" behind them. I knew that it only made good engineering sense that things should sound better that way, but since I never tried them constricted by the rainshield first, I didn't really know how much of it was just theory and how much of it was really noticable. Thanks for updating me. Things should come together really better after you redo both of them. It's like how the volume and soundstage really comes together with a balanced stereo image. I'm sure you've noticed that it seems more than twice as loud when you center the balance as opposed to having it just fed completely from one side or the other. The individual speaker always sucks! BUT, There is a magic sweet spot that occurs as the two images balance and complement in the middle.

If you've put weatherstripping gaskets on both sides of the spacer, I doubt that you would need to go so far as to add silicone RTV, but hey whatever makes you feel good about the install is half of the satisfaction. If you do ever take things apart again, you might try adding a sheet of "Dynamat" to the door frame. It cost about $15-20 for a pack of two sheets. 12inches by 12 inches. Cut it so that it fits over the door frame cutout and press it into the contours of the door frame. Then cutout the center where the speaker mounts. I did this on mine, again for the acoustical principle of the project. It seemed like a good thing to do. To have the speakers mounted on an acoustical dampening material as opposed to the tin can effect of the revereberating door frame, just seemed like it would have to tighten up the sound and provide a better punch. Again, I did all of this from the start, so I can't attest to how much the dynamat did or didn't affect the sound. BUT, I've been pretty impressed with these DX-6s with the stock amp. It's a significant improvement over the BOSE paper speakers. I've never had a complaint about them not making as much volume as the stock speakers. Some people have complained about them being too bright, but I've found they have great tight bass and punch, so that I don't find them that overly bright in the center or slightly below center of the treble control. Perhaps the dynamat has helped to improve the bottom end which helps to prevent them from sounding "tinny" against the metal door frame? It's a far cry from your projected $2K upgrade, I'm sure, but it's well worth the $100 dollar price tag!

Thanks again for the update!
Southbound

dian1511

The sound is much better with both speakers redone. There IS a magic in the balance. I'll have to put the dynamat on hold for now, although it does sound like a good idea. I've read where one guy had sprayed the DAP insulating foam behind the white plastic protector on the inner surface of the outer part of the door. Anyway, I will stick with this upgrade. I keep playing around with the controls, most frequently set at 1 click to the right on the bass (I like the feel of the low frequency) and 2-3 clicks to the left on the treble.

I would putz around somemore in the car, but I have a deck that needs to be stripped and restained, and grass that 5 inches high now because of our crazy weather here in Wisconsin. And oh, there's the little annoyance of work! You know...........to pay for all these toys.

Ian

Southbound

Ian,
I'm glad that you're a lot happier with your POLKS now. I found that at first I was turning the treble down by about 2 or three clicks as well... But now I seem to have adjusted to the sound, and find that I actually keep things centered a lot of the time. It DEFINITELY depends on the particular CD! Sometimes, I find myself with one click UP on the bass and one click DOWN on the trebele. That feels about right most of the time.

At least it's a decent improvement for only $100 Bucks... It's good enough that you can at least listen to it now, while you take the time to decide how much further you want to go with it in the future.

QUICK QUESTION... I was just curious to have your additional input with respect to the actual need for a rainshield with these speakers... You say that you talked to Ron (StreetEffectz)... Did he agree that the rainshield was unnecesary? Did he also advise you to cut off the basket and open the backside up for better sound? Anyway, my feeling has been that if these $100 dollar speakers were to somehow get wet and get ruined... it wouldn't be that much money down the drain. And then at that point, I would probably do a more serious upgrade to the system anyway... And then I'd know for sure whether or not to go to great lengths to provide a rainshield.

Thanks again for your kind comments!
Have fun mowing the grass this weekend! I guess it beats shoveling snow!

Southbound

dian1511

When I spoke with Ron, he said that he does not install the speakers with rainshield. The main thing he said was that he makes a good seal so air does not escape, but no shields. He did not think they were necessary, and he has done numerous installs.

Southbound

Thanks Ian,
Sounds like we're all finally in agreement over the subject.

Thanks for helping me to sleep better now...
Soundbound