SwampGas

I did the little battery test on the speakers before installing them to make sure the wires were both the same....however...should the speaker be moving in or out to be working properly, or does it not matter?

I figured the first movement should go in to compress the air, rather than pull it.

Iggy

Are you installing aftermarket speakers? If so the + side should be wider than - side. Or.......are you just making sure what the polarity is of the stock wiring.

If you're looking to figure out the stock wires peep at this:


Iggy

SuperDave

As a scientific minded person I sometimes have to fight that part of my thinking. Don't be so scientific. Try your speakers wired in phase and out of phase. It won't hurt your speakers to move in first or move out first. See which way you like better. Competition vehicles often wire the passenger side speakers out of phase which brings the soundstage closer to the drivers side. It may or may not work to your liking but it is a quick change. Do it on your sub(s) too.

David

Sask32TL

What year is this page from? It can't be a 97 because the dome light tweeters don't show up, and there are no rear door speakers...

Do you have the harness schematic page for the 97?

If so, PLEEEEEEEASE post it here as well. It would go a long way to answer people's questions without having to start a new thread.....

SwampGas

The speakers are already installed in a closed box...I was just wondering if it mattered what the polarity was.

It doesn't hit as hard as the other stuff I've heard...I think I'll flip the wires around and see what happens.

Southbound

Standard protocol says that when a positive voltage is connected to the positive speaker terminal (DC battery voltage) the speaker SHOULD MOVE OUTWARDS. That is how you determine which speaker terminal is which. If the speaker pulls in with a battery across it, then you have the polarity reversed.

A positive rise time should produce FORWARD air movement! That is how the original microphone phase was recorded and that is the only proper way to reproduce it. While it might not matter all that much if ALL speakers were reversed the same in phase, it still affects attack times, etc. If you have a continuous sinewave, then after the orignial first half cycle attack, you wouldn't be able to tell which phase was which with regard to a single speaker. But since real audio is full of asymmetrical pulses, the proper phase is essential for a true and faithful reproduction. some people may like the sound of reversed phased speakers, just like they like the sound of a revervb, etc. But just know it's not the correct way that it was meant to be reproduced. To each his own, in that respect, I guess... BUT, I can't for the life of me see why you would reverse the phase of just one side???? This would acoustically totally cancel out any signals that were common to both speakers. The sound stage would be hollow and absent. You would only have the two stereo images presented separately without the proper summing of the common mono signals. I totally don't get that approach. Subwoofers may provide a strange effect by being out of phase which might make them seem to provide more depth by the slight delay. Again, kind of like a reverb effect. I'm sure people do strange things and no one necessarily prefers the same type of sound. So I'm sure some unorthodoxed things are done in practice. Just like some people like 100db more bass than was intended. Again, to each his own...


But basics are basics. Hook your door speakers up correctly. The positive terminal will be the terminal that is larger, or to really be sure, it's the one that makes the speaker MOVE OUTWARD AND PUSH AIR FORWARD... when the positive terminal of a battery is connected to the positive terminal of the speaker.

Door speaker color codes for the 2002/2003 TLS are as follows:

LEFT Front
+ RED/GRN
- BRN/BLK

RIGHT Front
+ BLU/GRN
- GRY/BLK

LEFT Rear
+ BLU/YEL
- GRY/WHT

RIGHT Rear
+ RED/YEL
- BRN/WHT

Good luck!
Southbound

Iggy

Sask32TL ,

Ooops,
I should have mentioned that the schematic is for 99-03 TL. Sorry I don't have '97.

Iggy

SwampGas

Southbound--

I meant reversing BOTH sets of wires to the speakers...right now the speakers are in phase with each other, but I have to check and see if the polarity is correct to the amplifier. The inputs to the box don't have polarity markings and I didn't assemble it...so when I did the initial battery test, it was just to make sure they were in phase with each other.

As for playing with the other speakers...bwhaha...I could never do that. I was just barely able to change the oil. Maybe if I can successfully flush the coolant in another 8,000 miles I'll try ripping other stuff apart

SwampGas

FYI, I just went out, ripped the backseat out, and did 15 mins of fixings...

1) Removed the stock amplifier
2) Tapped the remote wire...still not enough juice to kick the amp on (only +5V on my voltmeter)..going to continue to use the IG II wire I tapped from the fuse box as a remote
3) Made sure the polarity on the speakers were correct (positive made the speaker jump out)
4) Moved the gain up a little

Sounds REALLY nice. Not muddy anymore. Don't know if removing the stock sub helped or if it was changing the polarity...but it definitely pounds.

Next step is to get a relay so I can stop using the IG II wire from the fuse box. You CANNOT turn the stereo off if the amp has power..sounds like a HUGE boom.....but..errr...I would never try it on MY system

miwa

I agree with southbound .. hook it up the way it was 'meant' to be, but sometimes u get stricken with issues like me ..
read bass lag .. then you 'have' to do some phase trickery to get it back.

as for canceling out signals...I can't claim to be an expert but there happened to be a 'troubleshooting' article about this in the latest car audio and electronics. the guy answering back (derek lee) claims that something like a sub would need to have an equivalent sub at least about 15 ft away before any phase cancellations will occur since a sub produces wavelengths that will reach up to that distance. while this happens with home audio .. it rarely happens with car audio. his claim is that since you're within range of both subs, the cabin is getting pressurized and depressurized regardless of phase, so you hear everything.

I would imagine the same thing happens with front door midrange speakers.. you'd hear everything .. albeit one slightly behind the other... however, as superdave pointed out when he told me about this, u 'want' one slightly behind the other such as the driver side behind the passenger side so that they both end up reaching your ears at roughly the same time.. thus moving the 'sweet' spot over from the center to the driver's 'off center' position.

in my case.. I WANTED the cabin speakers to be behind the sub so that the sub had time to reach me .. however, someone else asked me if I wired the tweeters backwards and well, I probably did since I swapped the wires from the amp connections. I'm not sure .. but I think this is causing them to not handle as much power as they were meant to? as maybe its moving backwards and they're hitting on their baskets? is this the reason why brewboy asked me about wiring only the midranges backwards? but what if I put them back in phase? would they mess up the time alignment again? or would high frequencies move fast enough that it wont matter? guess I'll have to do some experimenting again.

I think alpine has been capitalizing on this .. with time correcting head units and "phase-correcting speakers" I'd imagine there's just a nice switch for swapping polarity but hey .. it sounds good on the ad ..

SwampGas

I forgot to mention that the engine noise in my system is now gone...I guess it was feeding back through the stock sub.

SuperDave

Miwa,

Yes, experiment more and go with what sounds best. For the record, I usually just wire my speakers in phase since I want the passenger seat to sound as it should.

As far as changing the phase of the speakers, this should not change the power handling capabilities of your speakers. If they go forward first, they still have to go back to get the cone to move. This movement front to back should be the same whether going forward first or backward first. I have heard of some subs being off center one way or the other but this is somewhat rare.

David

miwa

superdave.. I was referring to my tweeter

Southbound

Miwa,
Yeah, I agree with superdave in that the phase of ANY of your speakers will NOT cause damage to the speaker. As he says... the speaker moves equal distance forward and backwards, (assumming a sinewave)if you switch the phase it's just a matter of which way it goes first. Granted, audio signals are mostly asymetrical so they will have random excursions that have different positive and negative amplitudes around the zero axis. However, since the excursions are random, both directions will eventually have to move the same distance.

So don't worry about damaging your speakers by having the phase reversed. I must admit, though, that I still don't understand some of the reasonings for reversing the phase of certain speakers. Again, to each his own, I guess. Whatever sounds best to you should be what you go with. I wouldn't think that you would ever want the tweeter phase reversed from the midrange, but then maybe it's done for some strange reason in practice. Phase cancellation of the signal WILL happen in any environment, be it your home or your car. Now maybe some people happen to prefer the sound of the cancelled signals, just like some people like the sound of added reverb, etc. Sometimes just producing a different sound seems better, just because it's a change. After getting used to the new sound, you may then find that going back later now sounds better??? Acoustical cancellations will occur at the higher frequencies before the lower frequencies due to the shorter wavelengths. If you have a particular signal (such as vocals) that is common to both left and right speakers, and both speakers are wired in phase... then they will BOTH be pushing air outwards towards the center of the car at the SAME time. The effect is additive and produces more volume at these common mono frequencies. If one of the speakers is out of phase with the other, then one speaker is pushing air forward into the cabin while the other speaker is pulling air from the cabin. This effect results in the two signals bucking each other and cancelling out the center mono image. To the degree this happens would depend upon how they are pointed and your particular listening position. You know that when you play with the separation control that the center position is more than twice as loud as any of the individual speakers alone. This is because of the added and combined effects of the two speakers working in unison with their common mono signals. I guess there could be a lot of reflections off of the glass inside the car environment that could also cause cancellations. Perhaps that is why reversed phase speakers sometimes sound better in a particular small enclosed car situation??? I sure can't figure out any other reasons as to why you would want to reverse the phase of the tweeter with respect to its midrange, or why you would really ever want to reverse the phase of just one side of the car. I can see where MAYBE reversing the phase of the subwoofer might make a positive improvement in certain circumstances due to its longer wavelength and its relative lack of directivity.

Good luck with your experimentations. But you don't have to worry about any damage to your tweeters, midrange, or subwoofer by the polarity of their phase. The sound is bound to change, but no damage will occur. I'm not claiming that other peoples advice is wrong, or that it might not be valid in certain situations. I'm just saying that I don't exactly understand it. I ALWAYS keep all of my speakers in phase, period! SURROUND SOUND... NOW that's a whole other ballgame. It only works because of time delays and phase changes, etc. But playing a STEREO CD in the car shouldn't be trying to replicate that type of sound. Of course I could be wrong...

Southbound

SwampGas

Yeesh..what have I started with this thread?

I knew AP physics would pay off someday...

Interference: The effects of 2 or more waves which superpose while passing through the same region.

Destructive interference: When 2 waves are out of phase with each other they dimmish each other. This produces an amplitude that is smaller than either wave separately. With light, this means the area will be darker. With sound, this means the region will be softer.

Interference can be calculated by the principle of linear superposition, which is when 2 or more waves are present simultaneously at the same place, the resultant wave is the sum of the individuals: y = A1 sin(f1x) + A2 sin(f2x).

I should note that in my original question, I wasn't asking about changing the polarity of ONE sub out of two...I was talking about flipping BOTH pairs of wires to the subs.

The end result is a much louder system which resonates better with the frame of the car (since it's closed box).

I don't know much about car audio...but I do work with large audio systems since I'm a DJ and involved in professional audio stuff. If you run some pink noise through the Bose system in the car, it's TERRIBLY unbalanced. No mods, no phasing, no nothing will make the system sound better until you properly EQ it. I will hand it to Acura, tho...their placement of the speakers in relation to how I have my seats in the car produces minimal destructive interference around the driver's seat