After doing quite a bit of research on the board, I have found that many people have recommended the Alpine S series speakers as replacements. I am considering upgrading the audio system for my new TSX, and would be interested in your opinions on how to optimize this. I plan on maintaining the factory head unit.

For the front speakers, I plan on replacing the components. I am looking at either the Alpine SPS-171A components or the Rockford Fosgate P162S components. Any recommendations? Similarly, for the rear 6x9 speakers, I am considering either the Alpine SPS-690A or the Rockford Fosgate HPC2369 (or something similar).

I had read in a few of the other articles that the back doors also had two speakers. As such, I am curious as to the size of these, as well as whether or not I should also replace these speakers/disable them/etc? From the previous installation, I have a set of Polk DX9's 6x9s (after 4 years these are still fine) and Polk DX-3055 5 1/4" component system. Would any of these fit in the rear doors if need be?

As a novice (I had my last system in my previous 2001 Accord completely setup by Circuit City), I do have all of the parts from this install. While I plan on replacing the speakers, I am considering whether I should keep the previous amplifiers or replace them. In my previous system, I had a MTX Thunder 152 (I believe this was to drive the sub) and a Alpine V12 (I believe this is a 4-channel amp to drive the speakers). I also had a 1 Farrad capacitator with the previous system.

Just before trading in my car, I blew the subwoofer that came with it. Fortunately, this was a fairly low-end subwoofer as thumping bass is not nearly as important as high-quality sound to me. A local sound installer recommended the Rockford Fosgate Punch P2 12" subwoofer. Any takes on this?

In short, I have quite a few questions - and would like to figure out what the best option is (only know I like to have good, clean sound - that is loud when I want it to be). Although I don't mind putting money into this, I'd like to cap it at around $1,000. I appreciate any suggestions!

Thanks,

Steve
2004 5AT Arctic Blue TSX

 

OK, noob, you couldv'e larned all this by searching and reading, but I'm feeling magnanimous:

Stock system you are starting with:

Head Unit with full-range Front and Rear 1V preamp outputs

6-channel amp in center console (teeny-tiny one) F out, R out, and non-fading bass. There are seperate tweeter outputs for the dash tweets, but I do NOT think this is an 8-channel amp.

Front 6" mids and 1" tweets

Rear 6" full-range

rear deck 6x9 subs



Recommendations:

If you have 1K to spend, you can get much better than Type S. Most of the Type-S fans are on a tight budget.

first a few observations:

1) Just 'cause the factory put a speaker there doesn't mean you have to.

2) Decide what's most important: Volume, bass, or fidelity. Design accordingly. If non-performance factors (video integration, iPod integration) are also desired, stipulate - that eats up your budget.

3) Find a good high-end shop.

4) A 12" is a LOT of bass. Be clear if you need it.

My recommended system:

Your amps

Some good MB Quart, Boston, Alpine X series, Focal, or such 6" coaxials or seperates.

A fiberglass box for a 10" (JL 10W3?)

No by-nines or rear door speakers (unless you use the Polk 5").

Some 4-channel line driver in the console.

Good installation.

 

Elduderino,

Thanks for the help and advice! For me, fidelity and volume are the most important (in that order). I have no need for the DVD/iPod/video integration type stuff, and as such, am focused on the audio system itself.

With your speaker recommendations, you say to skip the rear speakers completely. I know that they are sometimes overpowering, but I do like the idea of "all around sound" with moving the balance to the front somewhat to make the sound more uniform throughout the car. I'd prefer to put new speakers in the rear doors/6x9s (either or both) as compared to using the old ones. Is this absolutely a bad idea?

You mentioned several makes of speakers for the front doors. I'd like to put in components. As such, which of the brands (preferably specific model) would you most recommend?

Lastly, regarding the installation. It is hard for me to tell whether a shop is "high-end" and will offer good installation. Does anyone out there know of any good shops in the Springfield Mass area?

Thanks!

Steve

 

i have MB QUarts up front and love them.

 

Thanks for the reply. What is the model # of the MB Quarts that you have? Have you been satisfied with the performance of the Alpine S's in the back? How about the Alpine amp?

Thanks!

Steve

 

Yes. Speakers in back can help make the system louder. But as far as fidelity goes, two-channel stereo tracks are recorded by their engineers to be listened to with the speakers in front of you (as if you were at a concert). Unless you go to concerts wearing a T-shirt that says SECURITY across the back, you face forward at concerts.

Our ears hear differences in direction much better in front of us than behind us (hence the fact that they stick out). Directionality has nothing to do with volume, but it has everything to do with stereo fidelity. We don't hear directionality in sub-bass, whcih is why we can stuff the bass in the trunk - if the mids and highs sound good, we think the lows are up front too. When this is done right, you can actually hear the singer floating in space in the middle of your windshield.

If you are absolutely concerned with making sure you are loud enough, put 6" midranges in the rear doors and set them up to play mid-bass, rather than highs.

Many of us avoid by-nines cause... well, 'cause they suck. I have never seen an oval drum. I have never heard them sound good - they distort voices and the "three-ways" are usually bright in the highs, muffled in the voices, and boomy in the upper mid-bass. (If you are now thinking "But my six-by-nines ROCK!" that's your right as an American, but you might want to ignore all my system design advice, 'cause it may not work for you...: )

Well, brands are good, but keep in mind a poor install can make any speaker sound poor. As tuan can tell you, you can assemble a great sounding setup out of speakers that you will have never heard of... if you know what you're doing.

MB Quart Reference speakers are pretty good - in your price range, you can afford to upgrade from the DISCUS level to their Reference level - (I prefer the MusiCOMP upgraded crossovers, which I guess you can now get in the box rather than having to order seperately), as are Focal, Dynaudio, and I hear Diamond is OK. Infinity Kappa has its fans (I am not usually one), Alpine Type X is really good and you may find some of last year's on sale - Polk, Boston, etc. I like Boston, they are pretty deep, through. If you go with MB Quarts, I would NOT put the tweets in the dash, I would go with their coaxial (which sounds identical, but places the tweeter in the frame with the woofer).


The only Alpine F#1 dealer in Mass is SUPERIOR RADIO, 542 LINCOLN AVE, SAUGUS MA 01906 (781) 231-5110 ... but from what I remember from reading Spenser novels, Springfield is the wrong direction.

I think Custom Car Sound used to be pretty good. Your local independent newspaper (The Advocate) listed them in this order in 2002:

Car stereo store
1.Tim's Car Electronics, 568 Main St., Indian Orchard, 543-8467
2.Safe & Sound, 428 East St., Chicopee, 594-6460
3.Custom Car Sound, 1760 Boston Road, Springfield, 543-3713; 1448 Riverdale St., West Springfield, 734-4995

 

they are the PCE 216. and those alpines in the back sound great. i've set up my audio settings so that my fade is like +4 or +5. this it feels like the majority of the sound is coming from in front of me. they PCE 216s are like $500 bucks retail however so you might want to look at the RCE 216s that are cheaper. the only difference is the the RCE 216s have a .75 inch tweeter and the PCE 216s have a 1 inch tweeter. my highs are incredibly clear and even with two 12 inch subs pounding i can hear every word that the artists are saying in the music i listen to (mostly rap). the alpine amp is more than powerful enough. you will need some line drivers though in order to not get some clipping.

 

1) Having heard the 216s in Joerckts car, they are OK... but on his budget he can afford to upgrade to the reference.

2) You can't upgrade the xover in the 216, it's built onto the frame. Better xover on the reference even if you don't upgrade it.

3) I never have figured out what was "clipping" in your system. In my tests the head unit doesn't clip even at 40. What line driver did you end up using, anyway?

 

if you take your car to Mackenzies in Billerica they'll know what to do. Since they installed my stuff they are now very familiar with the TSX.

 

Elduderino,

Are you suggesting that my audio setup would sound better if i actually removed my six by nines? Is this a less is sometimes more situation? Also on the same note, how difficult would it be to install 6.5 inch speakers where the six by nines are?

 

I can't speak for El, but he's going to say YES....but "better" is relative to the user...if you like loud music from all directions then the 6x9s are probably fine for you. If you're looking for the front stage, concert-like sound that most audiophiles strive to get (in the car, in the home, etc), then the 6x9s are killing that...(reread his message number 6 in this thread)...

 

that's interesting. I'll have to consider that in the future if i make any tweaks to my system. I still would like to replace the rear door speakers because those are still stock. maybe when i do that i'll listen to the system with the rear 6X9s and without it and see what i like better.

 

Ill second El advice on the alpine type x. I recently purchased the apline spx-177r and RE6.1 to test and both are very good component sets. The RE set was 165 shipped and the alpine was 215 at ikesound.

Both had ton of midbass and sounded very natural. For the money there is nothing that can beat these sets in terms of performance/price ratio. For those looking at not doing to much tuning, I highly recommend the Alpines. The crossovers that come with these are very nice. The RE was equally nice, and uses the XBL2 motor technology from adire audio, but may require alil more tuning.

For anyone on a budget, I would say these two sets properly set up would give you excellent SQ close to some brands like focal, dynaudio, and scan speak. The high end products are however much more expensive, but they hold their composure alittle better at higher output.

The RE and Alpine sets truely impressed me.

 

Jigga: Yes, I think that it's worth trying. I actually think you could get more bass through the trunk by removing the by-nines, but in general they add volume, not fidelity.

Musicbox: No, you can speak for me - will you be my agent? : ) Ever test that 603? Is it the one on Ebay?

Tuan: Glad to hear that. Hoping to actually hear mine soon... they don't sound that good in the packaging : )

 

No, didn't test it yet..I will try to do it over the weekend, I have no reason to believe it doesn't work fine, but I want to make sure before selling it.

no, it's not on ebay..

 

i definately don't need more bass. but having more fidelity might be nice.

 

Hey, tuan, what's your test setup? How do you eval?

 

 

I measured the frequency response and distortion on a rig i have setup at home. For subjective listening i hooked them up to the doors.

 

On axis? off axis? power applied? full range or high-passed? : )

Looks like am am running outta time for the honeymoon install... I might decide to install the Type X mids in front and the MB Q by-nine woofs in the rear off of the factory amp.

The Type X xovers have biamp inputs, so I can put the xovers in the center console and still use the tweeter wires for now, making a pretty quick install. I'll temporarily accept the lower SPL for better sound at lower levels...: (

 

you're going to hook up TYpe X components to the factory amp. what a sin!

 

Yeah, and will probably sound crappy, too. I think that xover is gonna scare the factory amp to death...: )

 

let us know how it sounds...

 

Grrr... the guy I bought the MB Quart 6x9 components off of on eBay did not follow (or read) myshipping instructions and sent them 3Day, so they don't get here until Monday... and I get married a week from Saturday! I was hoping to do the job tomorrow (Saturday).

Maybe I'll do the F doors and then slam the by-nines in Monday night...

 

Well, thanks for all of your help! I've decided to purchase the MB Quart PCE-216s 6.5" components for the front doors. What is the best placement for the tweeters?

Second, I am still unsure of my selection for the rear. From what I have read, I have decided that I would like 6.5" speakers for the rear doors as well, and will disconnect the 6x9 speakers in the rear deck. Should I purchase a component speaker for the rear doors? Or, should I go with a non-component speaker? Should I stick with MB Quart or is there something else in comparable price range that would be more highly recommend? The Alpine Type X's sound appealing, but I am unsure of which model I should purchase for optimal (well, not *too* optimal...) sound quality.

Regarding the amps, I will use my the ones I currently have, and will probably take El's advice regarding the subwoofer. Although, I have also been looking into the Rockford Fosgate Punch P2 subwoofers as well...I still think that the 12" sub will be a good match for me - it will produce the bass that I want without going too far overboard. I think that the MTX Thunder 152 amp might not be enough to power this sub. That being the case, any recommendations on what subwoofer I should purchase as a replacement?

Jigga...too bad Billerica wasn't a little closer. I'm still unsure of where I will have this done, but am searching for a quality shop!

Thanks for any additional insight!

Steve

 

BTW, I would upgrade to the Refenze RCE 216 instead if you can. Better xover, and coaxial setup.
The best placement for those tweeters is to mount them in their co-axial configuration in front of the woofer cone in the door. Put those in the factory locations (IF they fit) and they will saw your ears off bouncing off that glass!

I would put a 6" mid-only in the back doors if you can - leave all the highs to come from the front. The exception to this is if you cruise with buddies in the back seat... but I've been in the back of a TSX, and I don't think you'll be doing it that much - no legroom. MBQ RWE 160 is a 6.5" mid-only kit.

On the amp... you may be right about the MTX. But you already own it. Get the wiring done and get it hooked up and try it... if it's not enough juice, changing out the amp for the bigger one is 15 minutes if it's in the trunk...

 

mine are in the factory location and my ears aren't getting sawed off.

 

tuan, you wanna handle this one?

 

the tweeters could sound nice in factory locations, but it depends on how you tune it. Only way to find out is to try. Having tweets high up will you more stage height and width. However, the tweets prolly sound better next to the mids. Having the tweets next to the mids give you better imaging and tonality. Im all about tonality, so I would place them them in kicks. You can easily fit any of the compact tweets in kicks without any major mods to the car. Tweets in kicks can give you pretty good stage height also. There is a trade-off between the two locations. Just try them at different places is what I suggest.

Im not sure how the MB quarts set sound, but I can bet the Alpine type X is better. I reran some distortion test, and the Alpine set had lower distortion than the Seas Ref mids. Those seas mids retail for 599/pair, and that is ONLY for mids. 215 for the whole apline set it is a steal, and the xovers on the set is very flexible.

As for subs there are many good choices out there. A single 12 obviously will be better than a 10. Im not sure how much power your amp has, but if you are lacking in power look for a sub that is efficient.

Just remember that you dont have to spend too much money on speakers and amps. The most important aspect of a good sounding system is the install.

 

My .02 on the tweets and location:

Titanium tweets tend towards sounding bright and forward. This is mainly prevented in the crossover design - that's why I recommend the external xovers over the onboard ones and the Musicomps over the basic ones.

But if your tweeter has any tendency towards brightness, bouncing it off of glass will just exacerbate it (or even make it worse : ). So, if you are using a metal tweeter, you may want to avoid bouncing it off of glass. If you DO so, use as good a xover for it as you can, and start out with the tweeter output on the LOWEST setting first.

Another reason that I tend to not put metal tweets up there is that the main benefits that tuan mentions (with which I agree) of placing a tweet up there are best realized if you are using a tweeter which plays fairly low into the midrange. Soft dome tweeters (as a rule) often tend to do this better than metal tweeters. I am a big fan of hearing the stereo illusion of a female vocalist out in front of me, so I like to use soft domes up there.

A single 12 is louder than a 10... but better is obviously a multivalue variable. I tend to think that you won't find an efficient sub because you aren't reading the REAL efficiency ratings on half of them, becasue makers lie. The heavy cones and stiff suspensions and low Fs resonances of small-box sealed-box designs result in low efficiency numbers, and the marketing department thinks that low numbers look bad, so you ususally see lies. I've seen woofers rated at 89 dB 1w/1m on the box that I knew from their engineers were really 81!!! So I wouldn't even bother with the efficiency deal (Cerwin Vega always has the most efficient woofers out there, but they don't sound very good). Just get a 12" you like and see if your amp hanldes it. Remember, when you use an electronic crossover to limit the bandwidth your amp plays, the power goes up as a result.

 

ya....but there are some really good brands out there that do accurately rate their subs efficiency.

look at some image dynamics, adire audio, jl, tcs, hsu, eD, and many more. I wouldnt use any of the main stream subs you can find at local best buy and circuit city . to give you a general idea of how loud a sub is just look at the xmax.


as for tweets, just try them everywhere. there is no ONE best place, it just depends on what sounds best to you. i also agree with el that for best results you have to go active. being able to set your own xover points allows you to set them at what sounds best to your ears.

 

Well, after all of this (as well as visiting several stores, etc) I think I've finally decided on the final setup:

Front doors: MB QUART PCE-216
Rear doors: MB QUART PCE-216

I'd like to have optimal sound quality all around (and do have passengers in the rear at times), and as such have decided that the components in front and rear make sense for me. These will be powered by the Alpine V12 amp that I currently own.

For the subwoofer, I am going to get a single 12" and am looking at either the MTX Thunder 5500 or the 7500. I will be purchasing a MTX 421D amp to run the subwoofer. I like the MTX because of the in-car subwoofer control. I will also be using the 1 Farrad cap from my previous setup. I haven't decided on the enclosure I will use for this yet, but will probably use the installers discretion (to some extent...).

Thanks for all of your help!

Steve

 

I am just looking for any input regarding the installers. I know that Jigga had recommended an installer in Billerica, MA. El had shown a local newspaper as listing "Custom Car Sound" in Springfield, MA as decent. I visited Sound One in Norwich CT (an authorized MB Quart dealer). Besides Jigga, has anyone had direct experience with any of the above dealers?

Steve

 

i wouldn't bother buying the PCE 216 for the rear doors bro. thats a waste of money. just get the reference series. the only difference is that the tweeter is .75 inch instead of 1.0 inch. i for one cannot even hear my rear door speakers. use the money you save on something else. you could probably even get away with the discus series in the rear doors and the rear six by nines.

 

word.

 

Jigga,

I will probably use your advice and go for the lower series on for the rear doors. I was quite happy to find the PCE-216s for $260 on eBay though! I was originally thinking to use my original (about 3-4 year old) Alpine V12 4/3/2 channel amp (MRV-F303) to power these speakers. However, I just found the original spec sheet, and found that this sub is 30W RMS per channel! I am wondering if this is "good enough" to use with these speakers?

I saw a recent post regarding the Infinity Reference 5760a 6-channel amp. Should I upgrade this? With the $270 pricetag at what appears to a bonafide site, this seems like it might be a good upgrade. Although it may be more than what I need (hopefully!), it is nice to have something that will be useful should I want to make changes down the road...