Perhaps a typical newbie question
03-16-2002, 12:30 AM
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Should rears be changed as well?
2 weeks into owning an '03 TL-S, ready to upgrade the audio. Budget is a little tight, looking to spend $750 - $1,000 MAX for a professional install.
I don't want to mess with a new sub, at least not for a while. So I'm thinking 2 fronts (should fit in place of factory speakers without additional mods) and possibly 2 rears, all powered by a decent amp.
Questions:
- Is it adviseable to keep the bose sub in the loop? Will it interfere somehow and ruin the effect of better speakers driven by a better amp in the front?
- Can the factory speakers in the rear be driven by a high-powered amp without blowing them out (if possible to keep the rears, keep the cost down)?
- If I'm only installing 1 new amp, say about 400 Watts (100/channel), do I need to worry about the factory battery and/or alternator? Probably overkill at this point...
- Does changing the rear speakers and driving them with a decent amp have much of an impact on "soundstage", if the fronts are also changed and the factory bose sub is still used?
- Would a professional installer know NOT to use the Bose EQ when wiring new speakers and an amp? And I assume the Bose sub will remain wired to that Bose EQ, right?
- Anybody know of good car audio shops in the MD/DC area? I have some experience with MyerEmco and there's that new place "Tweeters"...
I'm not too concerned with how the sound will be for rear passengers - my priority is good sound up front.
I am searching through the forum for specific recommendations on speaker brands...I gather Infiniti and JL are in my price range, depending on if I change the rears or not.
Thanks!
I don't want to mess with a new sub, at least not for a while. So I'm thinking 2 fronts (should fit in place of factory speakers without additional mods) and possibly 2 rears, all powered by a decent amp.
Questions:
- Is it adviseable to keep the bose sub in the loop? Will it interfere somehow and ruin the effect of better speakers driven by a better amp in the front?
- Can the factory speakers in the rear be driven by a high-powered amp without blowing them out (if possible to keep the rears, keep the cost down)?
- If I'm only installing 1 new amp, say about 400 Watts (100/channel), do I need to worry about the factory battery and/or alternator? Probably overkill at this point...
- Does changing the rear speakers and driving them with a decent amp have much of an impact on "soundstage", if the fronts are also changed and the factory bose sub is still used?
- Would a professional installer know NOT to use the Bose EQ when wiring new speakers and an amp? And I assume the Bose sub will remain wired to that Bose EQ, right?
- Anybody know of good car audio shops in the MD/DC area? I have some experience with MyerEmco and there's that new place "Tweeters"...
I'm not too concerned with how the sound will be for rear passengers - my priority is good sound up front.
I am searching through the forum for specific recommendations on speaker brands...I gather Infiniti and JL are in my price range, depending on if I change the rears or not.
Thanks!
03-17-2002, 05:16 AM
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afropuff:
Hmm...okay $750-$1000. Saying "professional install" means a lot of things...and your price range for a "professional install" could be anywhere from $100-$2000 for just the install.
I will say though you'll sink most of your money in multimedia, aftermarket HUs and subwoofer setups. Since you don't want any of that your price range is definitely feasible. You can easily go with what I did, a 3 way front setup, for $250 (JL XR653CS), the nicest JL makes...and as rear isn't as important a good 2 way rear set for $150 (JL XR650CX). Then you have $600 to spend on the amp(s) and install. Or you could go with whatever other brands you want...Focal, Infinity, ID, A/D/S...really whatever sounds good to your ear but you should be able to get a pretty high quality brand. Go listen to a few, then go buy em online. The only problem with 3 ways is you will have to modify your interior a bit to fit the tweeters and mids, but you get the best soundQ. You could always go with a 2 way front set for $200 (JL XR650CS), and then only have to mount the tweeter...but the only thing that is literally just a drop in is a 2 way or 3 way coaxial...and honestly you don't want coaxials for your front stage...the soundQ doesn't compare...especially in the midbass and midrange area. If you went with a $200 2 way set in the front...mounted the tweeters on the doors, then a $150 2 way coaxial in the rear, the only things that wouldn't be drop ins would be the tweeters, which would be a 15 minute job. That setup you could pretty much do yourself in an hour or so. But if you decided to get it installed...you'd have $650 for the amp and install. The install should be in this case $100 or so...leaving you $550. Now in the case with 2 ways in the front and coaxials in the rear...you have to ask how loud do you want them. You can be conservative and get an 800w 4 channel amp (say a Rockford Fosgate 800a4), and get 100Wx4 @ 4 ohms into each speaker set...which is a little above RMS. That will get plenty loud and will only cost $300. Or you could get two amps, one for your front set and one for your rear...something like a 400a4 (what I have) for each...which delivers 200x2 @ 4 ohms bridged 4->2 per channel. That would give the speaker sets peak power...and will probably run $400 or so for both.
As for the questions:
1) It's advisable if you don't plan on getting a sub setup...because no matter how bad it is...if you had nothing there you would not get much bass from just your door speaker setup. It would only interfere with another sub setup...and I assume you won't cross your door speakers at the same frequencies as the stock sub.
2) Yes but there's no point really. It's not a high cost to replace them...and though they can be driven higher...not much mind you but higher...they're such pitiful speakers it's like riding a bicycle with 2 busted wheels...you CAN, but do you want to?
3) You really would only need to worry about the factory power supply (alternator) if you were running a bass setup, which draws quick spurts of enormous quantities of power. Even with 800W of power...you won't have the same issues versus if you had an 800W sub system. You shouldn't even need a capacitor.
4) No it doesn't have much impact, but I'd do it. You hear the pros always talk about how ambience, or rear fill, aren't really necessary blah blah blah. I have a pretty sensitive ear, and I can tell the difference. I like my ambience, I like it high quality. It can be used to make your car sound like a music hall, especially if you add in delays of say 300ms or something like that. It's all in tricking your ears. So on one side...you put 3 way components in the back (same as front)...that's overkill. On the other...you don't have any speakers in the back...that's underkill. A good medium is a good average set of high quality speakers...hence drop in coaxials not 3 way components.
5) Probably not. Depends on the installer, and how much you're paying him/her. Again, this is a DIY job I think...not worth paying someone...you just tap a few wires and presto. But from what I've heard most installers don't even know the EQ exists and take the easy way out with hi/lo converters...that has been my experience. And yes, the sub will.
6) Tweeters is too costly...and I've not heard of MyerEmco...I'll look around...you could ask my friend Bill Burton, the editor over at Car Stereo Review magazine...he always seems to have a list of good shops.
7) Just about anything is in your price range...but I get good deals mainly on Infinity and JL...the prices above are solid ones. I haven't been able to beat the price/quality ratio yet.
Austin519
Hmm...okay $750-$1000. Saying "professional install" means a lot of things...and your price range for a "professional install" could be anywhere from $100-$2000 for just the install.
I will say though you'll sink most of your money in multimedia, aftermarket HUs and subwoofer setups. Since you don't want any of that your price range is definitely feasible. You can easily go with what I did, a 3 way front setup, for $250 (JL XR653CS), the nicest JL makes...and as rear isn't as important a good 2 way rear set for $150 (JL XR650CX). Then you have $600 to spend on the amp(s) and install. Or you could go with whatever other brands you want...Focal, Infinity, ID, A/D/S...really whatever sounds good to your ear but you should be able to get a pretty high quality brand. Go listen to a few, then go buy em online. The only problem with 3 ways is you will have to modify your interior a bit to fit the tweeters and mids, but you get the best soundQ. You could always go with a 2 way front set for $200 (JL XR650CS), and then only have to mount the tweeter...but the only thing that is literally just a drop in is a 2 way or 3 way coaxial...and honestly you don't want coaxials for your front stage...the soundQ doesn't compare...especially in the midbass and midrange area. If you went with a $200 2 way set in the front...mounted the tweeters on the doors, then a $150 2 way coaxial in the rear, the only things that wouldn't be drop ins would be the tweeters, which would be a 15 minute job. That setup you could pretty much do yourself in an hour or so. But if you decided to get it installed...you'd have $650 for the amp and install. The install should be in this case $100 or so...leaving you $550. Now in the case with 2 ways in the front and coaxials in the rear...you have to ask how loud do you want them. You can be conservative and get an 800w 4 channel amp (say a Rockford Fosgate 800a4), and get 100Wx4 @ 4 ohms into each speaker set...which is a little above RMS. That will get plenty loud and will only cost $300. Or you could get two amps, one for your front set and one for your rear...something like a 400a4 (what I have) for each...which delivers 200x2 @ 4 ohms bridged 4->2 per channel. That would give the speaker sets peak power...and will probably run $400 or so for both.
As for the questions:
1) It's advisable if you don't plan on getting a sub setup...because no matter how bad it is...if you had nothing there you would not get much bass from just your door speaker setup. It would only interfere with another sub setup...and I assume you won't cross your door speakers at the same frequencies as the stock sub.
2) Yes but there's no point really. It's not a high cost to replace them...and though they can be driven higher...not much mind you but higher...they're such pitiful speakers it's like riding a bicycle with 2 busted wheels...you CAN, but do you want to?
3) You really would only need to worry about the factory power supply (alternator) if you were running a bass setup, which draws quick spurts of enormous quantities of power. Even with 800W of power...you won't have the same issues versus if you had an 800W sub system. You shouldn't even need a capacitor.
4) No it doesn't have much impact, but I'd do it. You hear the pros always talk about how ambience, or rear fill, aren't really necessary blah blah blah. I have a pretty sensitive ear, and I can tell the difference. I like my ambience, I like it high quality. It can be used to make your car sound like a music hall, especially if you add in delays of say 300ms or something like that. It's all in tricking your ears. So on one side...you put 3 way components in the back (same as front)...that's overkill. On the other...you don't have any speakers in the back...that's underkill. A good medium is a good average set of high quality speakers...hence drop in coaxials not 3 way components.
5) Probably not. Depends on the installer, and how much you're paying him/her. Again, this is a DIY job I think...not worth paying someone...you just tap a few wires and presto. But from what I've heard most installers don't even know the EQ exists and take the easy way out with hi/lo converters...that has been my experience. And yes, the sub will.
6) Tweeters is too costly...and I've not heard of MyerEmco...I'll look around...you could ask my friend Bill Burton, the editor over at Car Stereo Review magazine...he always seems to have a list of good shops.
7) Just about anything is in your price range...but I get good deals mainly on Infinity and JL...the prices above are solid ones. I haven't been able to beat the price/quality ratio yet.
Austin519
03-17-2002, 01:29 PM
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Thanks Austin519, your response helps tremendously! Now I just need to shop around and audition some components...and find a decent installer who has worked with or has knowledge of 2002+ Tl's.
I'm sure it's a DIY job for the adventurous, but I'd still rather have a "pro" do it.
I'm sure it's a DIY job for the adventurous, but I'd still rather have a "pro" do it.
03-17-2002, 02:26 PM
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I'm pretty much in the same boat with my 03 TLS. I'm not looking to overhaul the sound system but I would like to improve the sound. In previous vehicles I found that simply replacing the stock speakers often made a very significant improvement in sound quality. How good are the speakers used in the Bose system of the TLS? The sub sounds kinda weak to me and I was wondering if simply replacing the speaker with a better one would help.
03-17-2002, 03:04 PM
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The concensus is that the stock speakers are cheap paper cones...definitely the first thing to be replaced.
Due to the nature and placement of the stock Bose sub, your money and time would probably be best used in putting in a new bass-box + amp in the trunk.
Personally, I'm still trying to decide if 3-way's are the way to go...that would mean custom enclosures in the kick panels. If I go with 2 way's, what is the "best" location for the tweeters, considering the geometry and acoustics of the cabin?
Due to the nature and placement of the stock Bose sub, your money and time would probably be best used in putting in a new bass-box + amp in the trunk.
Personally, I'm still trying to decide if 3-way's are the way to go...that would mean custom enclosures in the kick panels. If I go with 2 way's, what is the "best" location for the tweeters, considering the geometry and acoustics of the cabin?
03-21-2002, 08:24 PM
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DHB:
Yes and no. The stock system amplifiers don't really deliver that much power either. So my suggestion would be to do both at the same time. There's no real use doing one but not the other. I mean, yes you can hook the stock speakers up to an aftermarket amp and get more sound...but not good sound...they're just cheap treated pulp speakers (which are very responsive to small amounts of power...but not SQ minded). You can also hook the stock system up to aftermarket speakers...but you won't be able to fully utilize the speakers.
afropuff:
You can get a free air sub to replace the stock sub...it is definitely possible. It's not difficult to fit even up to a 10" JL free air sub in there...you will just have to use a spacer...probably 1/2"...and you'll want to place something over it. An 8" JL free air would be an easy choice...and should be more or less a drop in (though I forget at the moment the depth of the stock sub). But this would definitely be cheaper and give more response than a similar sub in the trunk. It's always better to fire into the cabin...be it off the rear deck or through a port.
It's a tough choice between 3 ways and 2 ways. If you don't want to do a fair amount of installation, I'd go with 2 ways or coaxials. My JL XR650CX coaxials that I'm placing in the rear require a small spacer...and are a very easy installation. I would place the tweeters somewhere along the floor...because placing them on the A pillars leads to a higher sound image...which you don't want. And placing them on the doors facing out won't give you really any image because of the tight dispersion of the tweeters...so if you do doors you will have to angle them (I know the 2 ways I have do allow that...but you can't surface mount the tweeters to do it...you have to drill). So somewhere along the door area in front of the pocket would be good...or on the door angled up.
But no matter what my best suggestion is hook up your woofers...and leave your tweeters connected but not installed...and have a friend sit in the back and reach his hand up front and move the tweeter to different locations...with the windows up and down...for you to hear the difference. Don't do it yourself as you'll be distracted...you want the same scenario you'd have if you were driving...and don't position it then listen for a minute...as you'll forget exactly how it sounded before. Close your eyes too.
Austin519
Yes and no. The stock system amplifiers don't really deliver that much power either. So my suggestion would be to do both at the same time. There's no real use doing one but not the other. I mean, yes you can hook the stock speakers up to an aftermarket amp and get more sound...but not good sound...they're just cheap treated pulp speakers (which are very responsive to small amounts of power...but not SQ minded). You can also hook the stock system up to aftermarket speakers...but you won't be able to fully utilize the speakers.
afropuff:
You can get a free air sub to replace the stock sub...it is definitely possible. It's not difficult to fit even up to a 10" JL free air sub in there...you will just have to use a spacer...probably 1/2"...and you'll want to place something over it. An 8" JL free air would be an easy choice...and should be more or less a drop in (though I forget at the moment the depth of the stock sub). But this would definitely be cheaper and give more response than a similar sub in the trunk. It's always better to fire into the cabin...be it off the rear deck or through a port.
It's a tough choice between 3 ways and 2 ways. If you don't want to do a fair amount of installation, I'd go with 2 ways or coaxials. My JL XR650CX coaxials that I'm placing in the rear require a small spacer...and are a very easy installation. I would place the tweeters somewhere along the floor...because placing them on the A pillars leads to a higher sound image...which you don't want. And placing them on the doors facing out won't give you really any image because of the tight dispersion of the tweeters...so if you do doors you will have to angle them (I know the 2 ways I have do allow that...but you can't surface mount the tweeters to do it...you have to drill). So somewhere along the door area in front of the pocket would be good...or on the door angled up.
But no matter what my best suggestion is hook up your woofers...and leave your tweeters connected but not installed...and have a friend sit in the back and reach his hand up front and move the tweeter to different locations...with the windows up and down...for you to hear the difference. Don't do it yourself as you'll be distracted...you want the same scenario you'd have if you were driving...and don't position it then listen for a minute...as you'll forget exactly how it sounded before. Close your eyes too.
Austin519
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03-22-2002, 01:37 PM
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I really don't like Myer Emco too much. They have done some work on my past two cars and it was OK. I took my TL there two days after I bought it asking to spend around $1K to upgrade speakers/amp etc.. They said the ONLY way to do anything is to rip the whole system out and start over. Then the said to even get close to ORIGINAL sound it would be close to $2K.
I would consider driving up to NJ to go to Streeteffectz. You can find his info on the board. He does awesome work, especially in TLs. There was a store in Harrisonburg, VA (I went to JMU) that did a lot of work in my Civic. It is called Superior Sound, they do great work as well. I think they have a store in Winchester, VA as well. (I know both towns are redneck, but they did great work for me) Try and see if you can talk to "Bill" he is the owner (forgot his last name.) I haven't seen or talked to him in 6 years so it is tough for me to vouch for them now. Hope this helps
I would consider driving up to NJ to go to Streeteffectz. You can find his info on the board. He does awesome work, especially in TLs. There was a store in Harrisonburg, VA (I went to JMU) that did a lot of work in my Civic. It is called Superior Sound, they do great work as well. I think they have a store in Winchester, VA as well. (I know both towns are redneck, but they did great work for me) Try and see if you can talk to "Bill" he is the owner (forgot his last name.) I haven't seen or talked to him in 6 years so it is tough for me to vouch for them now. Hope this helps
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