vidgamer

I wanted to jot down a few notes, although, if you want full information on the Avincar setup, please search for other threads.

If you haven't already, check out jlukja's thread:
https://acurazine.com/forums/audio-video-electronics-navigation-22/avincar-speaker-upgrade-tsx-review-312425/
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Ok, first I installed the 6x9s. The boomy bass has really been bugging me lately, and while originally I thought I should change the fronts first, for quality's sake, it might take a while to get through the door installs, so this way I can at least enjoy some new speakers for a while.

Bass is tighter and deeper as expected. I put on one of my favorite bass test CDs -- Vegas, by the Crystal Method. With the bass hits from "Get busy child", the rear deck rattled! I think it's mostly the rear brake light. (I don't suppose there's a way to remove that without creating an ugly hole....) Yeah, these speakers go deeper.

I cranked the stereo up, and I can see the speaker moving in and out quite a bit with the techno music! So they are definitely working. Still, they are not as loud as having an external amp with a sub. Fading to the rear, I was surprised that the sound wasn't louder. But as I faded to the front, the bass increased (perhaps helped by the bass from the fronts?) and I am not disappointed! Very nice. I expect to be testing the system out some more very soon. You can really feel the bass. This is what I want -- enough bass for those inside the cabin, and no more. I basically had to crank it all the way with bass heavy music to get it to distort; I am not sure if it was the speaker or the amp that had enough!

A note: here in Florida, they passed a new law that says that your music can't be heard for more than 25 feet. (It used to be 100.) So, having super-low bass played loudly just seems to be a bad idea for multiple reasons.
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Ok, I still had some time, so I put the tweeters in as well.

I compared the new one on the left to the old one on the right. Not only am I getting more mids out of the new one, but more highs as well! The stock speaker sounds really muffled in comparison. Comparing drum (snare-type) hits, there are a lot of high overtones that make the instrument really stand out. It sounds much better with the new tweeter. I did have the treble turned up to +3 to try to overcome this mess, but now I can put it at neutral.

Question: if the mids are louder and the highs are louder, does that mean that the new tweets are probably louder overall as well?

As stated before, with more midrange in the tweets, the sounstage is brought up and forward.

Now I'm really eager to work on the doors, as now I feel like the mids are being overpowered by the tweets. I say that, but they are obviously loud, it's just that I can tell that things just aren't quite there yet. Perfection has not yet arrived.

elduderino

Nice writeup: )

The tweets will smooth out as they break in - keep us posted.

Spoon

Yeah, it can rattle a bit, I had that problem. The assembly just pops out - I put VB5 over the metal that it normally touches (any thin foam material would work?) and put the brake light back in place. The angle is kind of a bitch to work at and it takes a little effort to compress the foam and snap the assembly back in place, but it doesn't rattle any more.

jlukja

Vidgamer,

LOL, you wound up doing the replacement in the same sequence as I did. 6x9s, then the tweets, and then the doors. When you get the door speakers in you'll see what I meant by them "filling the hole" in the sound.

vidgamer

Spoon: thanks, that's what I was thinking, after fiddling with it -- just something stuffed in there to fill the gap so it wouldn't be hard-object-against-hard-object.

Jlukja: Yeah, well, I think it's just a matter of putting off the hardest part (doors) for last. I will attempt that soon, but I'm not looking forward to it!

Elduderino: Are the tweets breaking in, or my ears? They must be already breaking in somewhat, because they sounded pretty good tonight. Much more detail than I was hearing with the stock setup, and that's without turning the treble control up.

I can tell that the bass isn't quite what I was getting with my 8" sub (and yes, you can get plenty of bass out of an 8"!) & amp, but it's more than I would have expected out of a factory amp (and a wimpy one at that). Elduderino warned me that if I was too used to an amplified sub that this would not sound the same. I am trying to not jump to any premature conclusions about power or lack thereof. Its reasonable to expect that it's not going to perform the same. I played techno, and as long as I didn't push it TOO far, it played pretty loudly and I felt bass. My mirror vibrated, panels rattled a bit. Still, it seems like a compromise -- it's not quite a sub, but it sure seemed like it would go louder than I normally would listen. For some alt. rock I listened to, it seemed pretty heavy, so I'd say it's more than adequate for most music.

I think you definitely have to treat the install as an entire system. While the 6x9s are needed to get some lower bass, the overall bass volume is going to be created by all of the speakers (except the tweets, of course). So, even though the stock amp may not have a lot of power per channel, there is some power there overall. It's just not going to be as loud as a dedicated sub and external amp.

I wonder if some dynamat on that rear deck area would help?

Is there any kind of baffling in the doors behind the mids? is there any advantage to adding a foam baffling? (I ask because I have a couple of foam thingies laying around that I didn't use in an earlier install. I found that, in my previous car, the front mid/woofers sounded better with the volume of the door to resonate in, and seemed too "muffled" with the baffles. I never went back to try them again once I amplified the fronts...)

elduderino

Yes, our ears hear mid-bass more than bass, so it does get a lot "louder" to us with the mids in.

And yes, the tweeter does some big break-in right away, and the balance is a bit slower.

I would NOT use the baffles. Better to use some sound damping material if you do anything. The baffles essentially act like small, leaky enclosures.

vidgamer

I figured it would take a while, and it did. There will always be something that isn't obvious or something that takes extra effort, but in the end, I managed to get the left speaker in.

I am a bit surprised that it is not as loud as the stock (right) speaker. Volume is noticably reduced, but maybe mostly in the midbass. (It's times like these that I wish I had a sound level meter again....) I'm not sure that the midrange is all that different, but it does seem slightly less. It's hard for me to tell if the OEM speakers were just overly exaggerated in the midbass (say, 120 Hz, just to pick a number), or if the new ones are more subdued. I guess from jlukja's comments I thought I'd hear more midbass, but it seems like less. I don't think I got the "filling the hole" feeling that he described.

However, the bass does sound more controlled. It is definitely playing the bass down reasonably low (for a small speaker) where I can hear bass guitar from it, and the OEM speaker is a bit boomy in comparison. If I fade to the front and don't use the 6x9s, I probably would want to keep the OEM speakers, though, because of all of the bass reinforcement. However, I have to have some faith that the entire system will come together.

As a couple of people have suggested, I put a couple of small peices of dynamat around while I had it open. Listening to it later, I was hearing some rattling/buzzing from the passenger door, but nothing from the driver door. Dynamat, or the fact that less bass was being produced? I didn't even use that much dynamat! Very small peices (which will probably just fall off). Even so, I'll go ahead and dynamat the other one while I'm there.

I'm eager to get the last speaker in to be able to hear what it sounds like "complete". I have a couple of more adjustments to make before I make too many conclusions!

jlukja

Patience young grasshopper. I didn't really hear the difference till both door speakers were in.

BTW, elduderino, sent you PM and e-mail re: tweet crossover.

vidgamer

OK, that's what I was wondering! I need to have faith.... Elduderino obviously knows his stuff...

Spoon

Obviously I have no idea if you have the same buzz I do, but I know that on my car the passenger door handle/latch - whatever you call it, not to be confused with the molded handle or actual lock mechanics, the metal handle that opens the door with the (un)lock switch next to it - that entire oval plastic piece vibrates against the door panel. Haven't gotten around to doing anything about it myself yet, but you might want to check yours.

vidgamer

Finally! All speakers are in! I left off some of the minor fitment issues until I have more time, and just concentrated on getting the speakers installed so that I could go ahead and enjoy them.

I've written and rewritten what I was going to say a couple of times.

I think the bottom line is that you have to get the old system out of your head. The midbass was just way too exaggerated and boomy. The new setup is just "more correct". Things sound better. Bottom line. There's less mid-bass, and that is probably as it should be. It's too hard to evaluate some bass-heavy music (techno) and determine if the mid-bass is off. I had to get out some rock and jazz CDs, and all of the bass notes were there, nice and tight. Well, that settles that!

Now, one of my main concerns was whether the little stock amp could handle aftermarket speakers and still produce reasonable volume. I think they do, but if you really crank it, they do sound a bit "strained", so there is a limit. You won't get quite the max volume as you did before. I think it'll be Good Enough for me, though. The trade off is that what you have will sound better at any volume.

I hope I can start my car in the morning.

Spoon: I can't tell where the rattle was. I'll have to reevaluate now that I've changed things around! I tried putting some small peices of dynamat in both doors, but I've already had some problems getting it to stay put. That doesn't bode well...

jlukja

The HU has an "auto loudness" like feature so the mids get about a 4-5 db cut at volumes less than 20. Typically what volume levels do you listen at?

How much dynamat did you use, and where? When I did my install I read up on sound deadening and used Vmax in the doors. I also tried to "seal" the speakers to the doors as I read that it helps the mid-bass.

elduderino

Yeah, this is definitely taking that amp to the limits of what it can do. I was pretty unsure myself if the amp would handle these speakers, so it was a pleasant surprise.

As you note, it's probably not quite as loud. It does sound different on the bass, and I'm glad it all came together for ya : ) (I was going to reply to your one-door-speaker post, but J said it better than I couldn've, so I practiced keeping quiet.: )

vidgamer

You know, I don't recall with the old speakers, but I think it was less than 20. Now, I have to go more than 20. I think I had it at 23 this afternoon. 30 is a bit too loud, but sometimes I do like it loud... But much over 30 and things start to go sour.

I tried listening at a louder than usual level this morning, to get a better feel for the limits, and it still sounded pretty good at above where it was comfortable to listen to.

At reasonable levels, it really sounded great. I've gone through some of my favorite CDs, and it's very enjoyable.

I actually don't mind the "loudness" curve at lower volumes. It's just as well since it can't be turned off. :/ Since it cuts off at 20, it's pretty easy to get past it now.

I did not use much. I put, say, a 4" x 6" peice in each door on the metal behind the speaker, mostly coz someone else mentioned doing that. I also put a couple of small peices around where the speakers are, but I was trying to get them on the metal and not interfering with the plastic film. They tended to get in the way of the fitment of the door panel, so I had to remove a couple of them, so I'm not sure that there's much dynamat there. Then again, as long as the peices will stick, you probably don't really need a lot, if you happen to hit a good problem spot. (In other words, if you can target just larger flat areas that might vibrate. Not that I'm an expert, I'm just being cheap and trying to stretch what little I have. :-) ) I just hope the peices I stuck on the inside don't fall off. Then again, if they do, I may never know. ;-) I don't want to have to take those panels off again!

I thought about sealing around the wooden adapter, but it seems pretty tight to me. The only way it would have a problem is to have an air leak, and not a pinhole! I may see if I can yank the panel just enough to feel up there, but I dunno... if I was sure that I could get more midbass by sealing it, I'd go to the effort of taking it all apart again, if necessary.

I had 4 amps in my past two cars. I'm a little tired of wiring and rewiring so if I can live with the stock amp, that would be ideal. I think it goes pretty loud. Heck, I even find that there's plenty of low bass! How is this possible if the stock amp is so wimpy? Luck? ;-)

Still, I can see where some people would want a bit more. Occasionally, I want to crank it pretty loud myself.

The mid-bass still seems a bit weak, so I have started listening with the bass control to +1. I'm pretty happy with that right now. Do you think sealing around the seam between the wood spacer and the metal frame would help? Are there non-obvious airways formed?


HEY, weren't you going to make some sort of harness adapter for the TSX amp? Let me know if you do, as I have some creative wiring I would like to try out.

jlukja

I put quite a bit of Vmax in the doors because I was not only trying to dampen vibration but also lower the road noise. I don't know how much of a difference sealing around the speaker makes since I did it to begin with. If you're pretty happy with the sound then its probably not worth getting the panels off again. I suspect the difference isn't that big especially if the fit is tight (and I recall that elduderino included a rubber/foam gasket on the back side of the spacer anyways).

I listen to mine with the trebble at -1. My tweeters still sound a bit too bright, more so on some CDs than others, but I think eldude has found the cause so the fix is on the way.

Also, I still haven't disconnected my rear door speakers which I think I'm going to have to do. I have the fader at +1 to get the sound forward. Any more on the fader and I feel like I'm losing bass from the 6x9 but if I compensate the bass with the tone control then the sound balance seems to get a little out of whack. With the fader at +1 I think I'm still hearing too much of the OEM rear door speakers and the inferior speaker quality is contaminating the overall sound. I wonder if there is a way to wire a switch to the rear speakers so they can be disconnected and reconnected without pulling off the door panels.

vidgamer

My spacers did not come with foam attached. Hmm. Did you put sealer between the speaker and the spacer, or the spacer and the door? I don't see how much air could leak out of the sides.


The sound quality of these speakers is great! I think a lot of it has to do with the tweets. It is so much easier to hear what various instruments are doing. You can hear lyrics better. ("So THATs what they've been singing!" )

One of the things that surprises me the most is that there is plenty of bass, even when I play techno. I think a dedicated sub would play lower and louder, but this is pretty surprising for a factory amp! It's pretty easy to add a sub to the trunk, but I think most people wouldn't feel a need for it. We'll see how I do. :-)


I need to get a sound-level meter (again). My old one broke a while ago. I used to use it every time I made a major change to an audio system, to see what frequencies were too loud or soft. Then, you can make more informed decisions about what needs adjustment, if anything. Or, if you like more bass, you can at least confirm that you like the bass turned up.


I considered putting treble at -1, but using the bass and treble controls is like using a sledgehammer to drive some nails. You just can't make fine enough adjustments.

jlukja

My spacer had an insulating gasket. You can kind of see it on the right in this pic:


As far as sealing them, I think I went a little overboard. I used the Vmax to seal them to the metal door panel. You can't really see it in the picture but I also lined the opening with Vmax. LOL, maybe I went a lot overboard.


I remember seeing a pic in another thread where someone put a bead of silicone to seal the speaker to the door panel. I guess I tried to mimic that but with Vmax. I don't know if it made any difference but since I already had the panel off ...

vidgamer

I do not remember the foam, but maybe it was there and I just didn't notice it, being that they were both the same color? I just recall thinking that it was odd that there wasn't something on there as I was putting wood to metal, but I dunno! I do have some silicon sealer that I used on a previous car, but it's a mess. At least you don't see the mess behind the grill. ;-) I just didn't have it at the time I was installing the speakers. :-/

Anyway, I think the mids needed some time to break-in. I think they've loosened up quite a bit, because after several hours of use, I felt like I had less of a need to reach for the "+1 bass" adjustment. (It would be best to try to get it to sound as good as possible with the settings at neutral, for a couple of reasons. One, the 6x9s will get a bit too loud/boomy, and two, you'll make better use of the amp's power...)

I'm still willing to put on the sealant if it's necessary.... It just seems less necessary at the moment! I guess if I can feel around the edges of the spacer, I should see if I can feel any air leaks?

vidgamer

Whoops, sent to soon...

To try to summarize my thoughts, it all sounds really good! Vocals are extremely clear (probably due to the tweets); you can hear each bass note clearly. As I said before, everything is just a lot more detailed than what you'd expect in a car system.

The system sounds a bit strained at higher volumes, but I'm surprised at how loud and low it can go; I'm not sure that I want an amplifier, or that it'd do much good unless you just really needed it unusually loud. The low bass is surprisingly loud; if there's more distortion in the low bass, I don't really notice or care. You can tolerate a lot of low-bass distortion, it's the other frequencies I worry about.

vidgamer

An update. As I mentioned in another thread (https://acurazine.com/forums/audio-video-electronics-navigation-22/speaker-phasing-tsx-317605/), I came up with a trick which really improved the sound, at least for me. (Individual ears may vary, so you'll just have to test for yourself if curious.) After the phase switch, imaging is much more precise. The music has the detail from before, so I don't feel like I lost anything important. Even the midbass seems to be better. (It even measured better, although, I'm not terribly scientific in my testing. My results were extremely position dependent, I guess as the waves interacted with the sides of the car, etc.)

The Avincar speakers are clearly better than what you'll usually find in car audio. I'm really enjoying the music, and I can hear a great deal of detail. Voices, especially, are clear, and you'll never again have to wonder, "What were the words to that song?" I can't help but think that a lot has to do with the tweeters, but whatever the reason, it works.

While not a sub, the 6x9s do a great job. In my measurements, they were still pretty strong down at 40Hz (probably rolling off by then, tho). This is really enough bass for most music. Even techno is convincing. I think most people would be more than satisfied. Real boom maniacs won't be impressed, but as long as you're realistic about it, I think most of y'all would be surprised. But if you really need to, set it to +1 then listen again. At realistic volumes, it seems like enough bass for me.

I'm waiting to hear from Elduderino on one more tweek, but aside from that, I might be done with the audio system! I'd be disappointed except that it means that I can just enjoy the music now!

(Although, I would like an AUX input without losing XM.....)
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By the way, I checked around the spacers, and I couldn't feel any air leaking around them, so I didn't bother adding any sealant.

I also briefly tried some foam baffling behind the speaker, just to see what the effect would be (and because I already had a pair laying around), and the sound level was reduced. So, bad idea on that one. (Using the stock amp, we need all the volume we can get!) It might be worth it if you had a lot of watts going into it (and even then, I dunno).

curik_euro

Hi there! How deep was your door speakers? Would a speaker that's 72mm deep fit on the front doors of the TSX?

Secondly, How is a coaxial speaker different to a normal way speaker? I plugged a pair of coaxial rear speakers to the stock cables and it was fine. Thanks

vidgamer

You probably need a spacer. I dunno how large! You might check the FAQs on this site.

A coaxial has a tweeter in the center of the mid/woofer. Since the stock tweets are pretty weak, I have read that others have used coaxials in the door just fine. It does work. However, now you're generating a lot of the sound from your feet.
(That's where the Avincar solution gives an interesting alternative!)

The bottom line is, if you like the sound, then that's good enough! Pretty much any decent quality set of speakers should improve the sound, and that's what it's all about.