vidoprof

Getting my install done Friday.. I am using all DLS stuff, pretty high end, like Focal but I am doing a set of components up front, unlike Eldur I like 6 x 9's cause I just like loud, but SQ is a major factory for me as well. The components are pushing 150W per channel and the 6 x 9's are pushing 100W, I know the 6 x 9's can handle more power, well they are the same but I like more power up front with rear fill. I am also running (going to be anyways) 1 single 12 sub 500W in a custom box that fires into the cabin through the fold down seats with the amps mounted on the back of the box with a nice cover carpeted to match.


I like to keep my access to the spare tire so they are fabricating a box right where that line is in the trunk nearest the seats so I can still lift the cover for the spare tire...

So here is my problem.. I have never NOT used an aftermarket HU.. I have an Eclipse 5444 Head Unit (5V). I know that the 5V preout is pretty high and works well with multiple amp installs. I am wondering if the Factory Head unit will suffice. How bad will this sound with the factory headunit? Will I lose alot of power? I heard about line drivers but my understanding is they just amplify ALL signal including noise..

Sorry for the long post but just wondering what to do here as I am probable going to decide about the aftermarket headunit.

IF I go aftermarket I know I lose the 6 disc changer and factory look, anything else? AC?

Pros? Cons?

Thanks

Ryan

vidoprof

Sorry almost forgot if needed. I am using 2 amps a 150 x 2 @4ohms and a 3 channel 150 x 2 + 500 x 1 (sub) at 2 ohms


Thanks

Ryan

davestar

where would you get this aftermarket HU installed, if you decide to go that route? there's no commercially available adapter plate for the stock HU location, so anywhere you decide to drop in the aftermarket HU will involve a costly custom install.

eldude's measurements, and many people's objective listening, have shown that the stock HU provides an ample signal that doesn't suffer from clipping at reasonable (and beyond) levels. adding in a decent line-driver, should you think you need it, won't noticably increase the noise floor. it didn't for me or jigga (anyone else use one?).

as insistant as you are about the 6x9s, have you really researched how they'll affect your system? why not add another 12" or 2 10" in the trunk? a circular cone won't distort like an eliptical one at high volumes. plus a sub in an enclosure will have better power handing than a free-air 6x9.

i only make these comments because you claim to want SQ. as eldude has pointed out, and i've observed in countless posts on caraudio boards, SQ means very different things to different people. if you think 2 6x9s and a 12" will do the job, then go blast away. you can do better, however...

elduderino

Wow, davestar, when you come back, you come baaacck! Sorry the forum won't let me give you rep points for that post.

I've been turned on to a system used by David Clark, an audio engineer in Michigan who works with vehicle OEs. He's come up with a process of evaluating an in-car system relative to a reference.

Curiously, that reference is a nice home system with two speakers. No matter what, a good home stereo with two speakers outperforms a car stereo in several areas of SQ. You might find it interesting - it's like a cross between an IASCA scoresheet and a stereo SQ tutorial. Go to www.dlcdesignaudio.com and select Services on the left, then Audio Performance Reports on the bottom. Download both docs and look at them. It's a great objective way to figure out what's important to you. Clark totally devalues grading a system without comparing it to a reference (and using the same source material) and since I've been saying something similar, it's cool to see it elsewhere (even though I'm usually totally unconvincing! ; )


Vidoprof, it's worth noting that 6x9's (which I have) were only invented by the car industry because they fit the car, not for any other reason. I'm irritated at Acura for using them in an orientation where 8" round woofers would have fit just fine! (Hey, they're in the IS300!) I am actually having a set of 6x9 woofers made for me soon, but it's a different application - no woofer in the trunk. To me, SQ means hi-fi, and the term SQ came from IASCA system grade sheets where your hi-fidelity front stage, mid-bass quality, stereo image, etc., was evaluated (and eventually became a category). Some seem to use it now for a different meaning. As I often recommend, go listen to a good home hifi system and notice what it does.

You also don't say if they are full-range or woofers... if they are full-range 2 or 3-way, that's a big diff. Since 6x9 speakers are larger than others, they tend to be more efficient than others, so they are probably louder than the fronts even with 33% less power going to them.

As far as I can tell, any audio EQ, compression, or high-pass filtering present in the TSX factory system is built into the amp, NOT in the HU. Some of us have heard horror stories about what the factory HU does to the signal. Newer VW's, for instance, apparently have a rising high-pass with volume that cuts bass down at higher volumes. Some systems have a compression system to prevent blowing OE speakers. As far as I can tell, the output of the TSX HU has none of that - it's good full-range unmolested sound!

As far as line drivers go, there are various types of noise, and if you have some types, your statement is true. But sometimes noise is introduced due to input gain mismatches. On all the TSX OE HU / add-on amp installs I've done, turning up the amp gain resulted in engine noise appearing which was NOT present at a lower setting. Inserting quality line drivers allowed the amp to be louder without the input gain being higher.

vidoprof

Thanks for the posts guys..

The 6 x 9's are full range, since i LIKE LOUD rather than SQ, although that is an important thing to me as well. I just want LOUD so that is why I added the 6x9's. I know they take away from the staging and SQ of competition cars that is why they aren't used at all and only a front component and sub are used, but again I want loud. So if I can get a 6x9 to add alot more output i figure why not.

Eld - the front will push roughly 150 per channel and the back will push 100 per channel roughly so they won't overpower the front and if they do I will have the installer change it.

I was just wondering if I can use the stock HU with the amps and install I am going with if it's enough volts coming out of the HU. That was the problem with my last system hence the reason I bought the 5V Eclipse, but it looks like I won't be able to use the Eclipse without either

A. losing the AC or
B. Custom making an enclosure for the HU in the dash somewhere.


Dave I didn't want to go with another sub for a couple reason.. First trunk space.. There isn't enough room for 2 -12's in the enclosure I want. I do not want to lose ANY of the ability to lift up that cover for the spare at all. So 1 - 12 will fit with a custom box firing into the FRONT of the car through the seats.. I don't think 2 wouldeven be close.

I wanted 6x9's because they play more High freq's. That translates to LOUDER for me, which is where i am goin. I also wanted SQ but louder is more important. I went with DLS because they do both. Focal does as well and is the best IMO but they were several hundred more because I amgetting a great price on the DLS stuff.


I do thank you guys for the posts and info.. Just need to get a really good line driver now cause if I just dropped $3000 on a system and it souinds like crap I will be really PO'dd

Thanks

Ryan

elduderino

Well, 6x9's play loud. Good clarification, thanks.

I still don't know exactly what you're talking about with watts F and R. Pardon my confusion... I suspect you are looking at the wattage rating of the speakers from the manufacturer. This does not translate into loudness. A "150-Watt" speaker does not neccesarily play louder than a "100 Watt" speaker with the same input power. You are interested in sensitivity (often called efficiency) which with most speakers for cars nowadays, is a marketing made-up number, so it doesn't really help.

If you are instead referring to the size amps connected to them, if the two amps had exactly the same power and were set to exactly the same input sensitivity and were getting exactly the same signal F and R, the 6x9's will play louder than the fronts. They're more efficient - they're louder with a given signal input.

The only way to get the rears to play louder than the fronts in that scenario is to send them less signal (fade the signal or turn down the input sensitivity), which would require fewer watts to play. Remember that to hear a speaker as being quieter, you need to cut your power to it by 3dB... or 50%.

Which is another way of saying that 6x9's are loud. Of course they are! You don't want them to be louder than the fronts, so your installer will turn them down... which asks the question (in total seriousness): Why get louder speakers and then not ask them to be louder speakers?

Maybe I'm confused... but it sounds to me like you want to have 6x9's, but not let them play louder than the doors, negating their loudness benefit...?

Let us know how it sounds, though!

jiggaman

don't miss my 6X9s

vidoprof

El,

Sorry again about the confusion.. I do know that they will play louder with the same amount of WATTS going to them if they are more efficient. (i.e. sensitivity) HOWEVER they are both the same sensitivity (91) . So the front will play just as loud as the rears give the same watts, however I am not having them gain down the amps at all for the 6x9's at all. I am just going with a diff amp to them, with less watts. The front will get 150W and the rears will get 100W. I, like most people I think would like there to be more power in the front stage then coming from behind them. That is just me maybe though.

Basically I have a seperate amp running the front stage and then another amp running the 6x9's and the sub. The front stage amp is 150 x 2 at 4ohms. Not worries there. The rear amp is 100 x 2 + 500 x 1 for the 6x9's and the sub.

Hopefully I clarified better this time around. as for getting louder speakers the front components handle MORE power and are AS efficient as the 6x9's and I am not having them tune them down at all they are playing at the optimum level (according to the installer and the manufacturer 100W) Now I know that they aren't going to be getting 100W, although the amps I am getting are seriously underrated... but that is a whole nother topic all together.

I will certainly let you know how it sounds after tomorrow and I will have TONS of pics too.

This leads me to one last question.. Do you think that if I am putting out that much power to the fronts in the factory location that it will be WAY too HARSH against the glass? SHould I invest in a set of kick panels. I know if I want SQ I DEF WANT kick panels, but they don't make cheaper aftermarket ones so I would have to get them to cutom make some and for $500 I just can't do it right now.


Thanks again for the informative posts hopefully I cleared things up a bit this time around.. Any other questions let meknow hopefully I wll be more clear.

Ryan

jaydub

I hope to maintain my stock head unit the next time around, mostly because I feel that aftermarket stuff invites too much attention and prying eyes have gotten me before. As a result, I have been looking into a better line output converter, from http://www.davidnavone.com . I've read some pretty good reviews about it on various car audio forums, so I'm anxious to try it in the future. I'm pleased with my current setup, however I think with proper tuning I could really make a stock head unit shine. I did notice that many setups at SEMA this year were built around stock head units, which I found interesting.

elduderino

OK, I am really gonna write that sticky now, cause this keeps coming up:

DO NOT BUY ANY LINE OUTPUT CONVERTERS FROM ANYONE FOR THIS VEHICLE! THEY ARE UNNEEDED!

Doesn't matter how good it is. Doesn't matter who makes it! It's not necessary! Standard (non-4V) OP voltage! Single-ended, not balanced!

Nothing against this piece of equipment, sure it works fine in cars that need it, but this is not one of them. Whack an RCA cable in half, and you got your adaptor.

So, dying to know... does that handle represent your initials or your religious affiliation?

jaydub

hehe I get that often, and it actually just represents my initials which happen to be JW. I had a whole van of jehova's witnesses come upon me one day, very excited that they had apparently found another believer... they were disappointed when I told them the significance. :o

elduderino

It has more to do with the tweeter you are using and its on axis and off axis response.

I used a tweeter with a very smooth off-axis response, and I had to turn my OP on the xover down 4.5 dB.

So that implies that a lot of the direct on-axis output was being reflected off of the glass and into my face. Has little to do with watts, has everything to do with speaker response.

Now, a lot of tweeters and tweeter xovers sound bad when overpowered, but supposedly those won't do that... I guess, never used them.

If you don't like the dash, then can you mount the tweet in front of the woof in the door? Kicks are NOT for that tweeter harshness issue, they are for creating a good image up front, and I don't think you're gonna do it.

If you really need to soften those tweets down if all else fails, wrap them in two thicknesses of grille cloth, and use some clear film above the tweeter on the inside of the glass.

jaydub

oh btw thanks for setting the record straight on the necessity of an LOC, if it isn't necessary then I'll just be a happy camper without one!

Looking forward to the sticky.