Master-G

I've found out where one of the members here was able to bypass the EQ of our Bose stereos. What are the effects of doing this other than the obvious one of not have an EQ'd signal?

Some say that the amp for the front and rear speakers are located in the same electronics as the EQ which is separate from the HU. Can anyone confirm this? The reason I'm asking is that if I bypass the EQ (and possibly any amplification), I won't be able to power any of my aftermarket speakers without the use of an external amp.

Brewboy

The EQ is separate from the HU. There are 3 wires(R,L, com) from HU to EQ then back to HU for amplification, so yes, you can bypass EQ and still have HU amplify the signal for speak outs. The sub pre-amp output is not EQ'd.
PS, I highly recommend it with aftermarket speakers.

Master-G

So the separate unit from the head unit is an EQ ONLY? I thought that it does other things like sound compression (whatever that means). I read where someone bypassed the EQ by doing a loopback from the head unit to the EQ. If the only thing it does is function as an equalizer, then why not just unplug it from the HU? Will the head unit still work if the EQ is unplugged?

Brewboy

No, If you unplug the EQ, the HU will not have a signal back to it so you would have to loopback the sig_out & sig_in to bypass the EQ as you described or run the pre-EQ'd signal from HU to an aftermarket amp.

MotionEffects

how do u by pass the eq with the wires u describe...llike loop it i guess?

Brewboy

The following thread discusses it.
http://www.acura-tl.com/forum/showth...threadid=19642

In the second thread, Allanc45 posted the two wiring diagrams for our audio system.
http://www.acura-tl.com/forum/showth...threadid=20860

hemoglobin23

Brewboy,

If I install a head unt, and only hook up the blue harness (and not the small black one) would I still need to bypass the Bose EQ? If so, how would I accomplish this? I guess it would help to tell you that I have an aftermarket headunit. Thanx

Brewboy

If you have an aftermarket HU, then you will power your speakers directly from the HU or a new amp, whichever is your case. The EQ is only for the stock HU and looped using pre-amped signals. I believe the small black harness is the input and output to the EQ from the HU and the larger is to the speakers from the HU. So by using this large harness only, you will have bypassed the EQ without even trying by connecting your speakers directly to the aftermarket HU.

StanMan

i don't think the eq contains the amp...at least not the sub one. when i removed the rear upper cushion in my 2002 tl-s, i saw a small 100w amp located near the rear passenger shock tower.

hemoglobin23

Thanx so much guys...I really appreciate your help...

So Stan, you meant that by not hooking up the little black harness, I am bypassing the amps, too?

Basically, are my speakers being powered solely from the headunit?

Thanx again dudes...

Brewboy

The 4 door speakers are powered from the HU via the EQ loop. The EQ is located/hidden just above the HU. The stock sub is fed from the HU via a passive xover( I think) input/output from the EQ that is amplified by a small amp behind the rear seat. If you are able to use the stock output speaker harness, then you will have bypassed the EQ concerning the door speakers.
Hemo, if I remember correctly, you tapped the pre-amped sub signal for your new sub. You will have to refeed you sub/amp from your new HU. If you pulled out the stock HU, you will not have a signal to your sub using the existing tapped twisted pair behind the rear seat. So, if you buy another HU, the easiest would be to buy one with an RCA sub-out to feed your existing sub+amp and let the new HU power you door speakers. But there are other options. I hope I didn't confuse you. Good luck.

hemoglobin23

Brew...thanx for the reply...you are correct that I have no sub output right now. I will have to use the sub out on my HU, and modify everything to make things work well...ANyway, that is in the near future. Also, the responses you and others have given are the exact responses that I wanted to hear.

I will keep you updated when everything is done. I have many things to do...I have to make the faceplate for the HU (pain in the arse), make spacers to install my Focal Polykevlars, and add an amp to power the front stage speakers, and run new wires throughout to connect everytthing. But with the help from all you guys it shouldn't be that bad.

Thanks, again.

systek

k

MadJap

I have not really looked at the internals of the factory HU, so I this is just an educated guess about the Bose EQ...

When I used to sell audio for Circuit City (13 years ago...both home and car), I sold a few Bose 901 systems....
These speakers, if you are not familiar with them, have 9 drivers per cabiniet. Eight in the back for the "reflecting" portion, and one driver in the front for the "direct" portion of the patented "Direct/Reflecting" sound. They used the same drivers in all positions, a 4 1/2" full range speaker, quite like what we have in our cars. Along with the speakers, you also had to purchase an external "Bose EQ", which did two things. One, it boosted the treble by like 10 dB, to compensate for the fact that full range speaker did not do a very good job producing high frequencies by design (sound familiar?).... Two, it performed a thing called "Sound Compression", which made the mid bass more crisp. Kind of like a dbx impact restoration unit from the same era. Without this EQ, the 901s sounded like crap. With it, it still sounded lacking to me, but then, everyone hears differently....some people love the 901s.

Now....I remember seeing a post where someone heard an Acura/Bose system where the Bose EQ was bypassed, and the member stated that the bass sounded "boomy". I think that this would be quite possible, if our Bose EQ units performed the "sound compression" as well. It is quite possible that the bass signal going to the Bose amp is tapped after the Bose equalization circuit.

Has anyone actually removed the Bose EQ and tried to play the HU without doing the bypass mod? If so, did the sub still produce sound while the four door speakers did not? If this were the case, I guess the EQ only affects the door speakers.
However, if the EQ was removed without the bypass mod, and the HU no longer produced sound in both the door speakers and the sub, then the bass output is behind the EQ, and from experience, I would have to say that the EQ still performs the "sound compression".

Southbound

Calling Dr. IGGY!

IGGY and I know all about the EQ routine...

I'm sure we'll find time to post IN DETAIL after the holidays...

Southboud

Iggy

Hey systek,
What's with bringing a dead horse back to life? I wouldn't have noticed until I saw Allanc45's name in there. I don't even know if he's still around.

Cheers and happy holidays everyone,

Iggy

bozzchem

While it's true that this brings a dead horse back to life, I'm interested in hearing detailed instructions as to how one could use the preamp outputs of the HU to feed to an aftermarket EQ system such as the AudioControl THREE.1.

I can either perform the EQ bypass and use the front speaker outs of the Blose system to provide input to my AudioControl EQ OR I can use the pre-amp signal from the stock HU. Either way, the AC takes over the fading capablilities.

Initially, I thought it would be more efficient and easier to use the pre-amp outs...I'm not so sure anymore. Pre-amp outs will require an RCA jack to input to the AC. It won't take them as bare wires. So, I'd have the left feed, the right feed, and a common between the two if I chose to go this route. Then, I have to mate them to a pair of RCA jacks to input to my AC THREE.1. I'm looking for the simplest way to incorporate this EQ as possible.

I don't care about the stock subwoofer since I have two 12" IDQ's being fed 300W each. The stock sub will be disconnected regardless of any other mods. It will be a simple disconnect of its speaker connection.

I'm torn between doing the EQ bypass and using the speaker level inputs for the AC THREE.1 or using the pre-amp inputs.

Since the pre-amp inputs will be bare wires....how could I connect them to the EQ?

Thanks.

Southbound

PART 1...

Use a soldering iron... I don't think that a jigsaw will help you here...

Even I admit that I shouldn't have made that comment... it was in bad taste... I'm cool now... I'm just looking for some MUTUAL respect, I guess. I RESPECT everybody's opinions and everybody's ideas on this board. I don't have all the answers by any means, but I also don't assume that just because someone dropped $30K on their car that they will be particularly handy with tools and/or electronics... SO I DO TEND TO BE A BIT MORE EXPLICIT WITH MY POSTS... no matter how many times I have to repeat them... (sorry for the resultant lengths) Anyway, here's an idea about the factory EQ and the new Three.1 EQ installation.

I would try to go the preamp out route from the stock head unit to the new EQ. Since the new EQ is mounted NEAR the HU, and since both the HU and the new EQ have BALANCED inputs/outputs... you have a SHORT run and shouldn't have any need to go the low impedance speaker out route. The preamp out should be the cleanest way to go. Keep in mind that if you don't use the HU speaker outputs, you will be bypassing the EQ AND THE COMPRESSION stage that follows in the HU speaker amp stage. But if you have an aftermarket amp... who needs compression? The only thing that the limiter/compressor does is to help keep the low powered stock HU from truly "clipping" audio signals. This does help prevent destroying speakers from square waves like the cheap cardboard blose... but that's about it. In doing so, it employs an ALC (automatic level control) and compression circuitry. This gives you more apparant volume out of a small amp... (just like how commercials always sound louder on TV than the actual program) The compression puts a lid on all signals and allows low level signals to reach the same level as well. Since nothing truly clips... or totally distorts... one tends to run things up into this compression range just to achieve a louder volume. This prevents MAJOR distortion and helps to protect speakers... HOWEVER, THIS IS ALL DONE AT THE COST OF DYNAMIC RANGE. Once you have hit the compressor threshold, your dynamic range is reduced with any further volume. Everything is essentially at the same volume. No dynamic range, means loss of detail. The small details are never heard, because they are buried in the blur or smear of a compressed signal. As far as positions for tweeter placement... I could debate that all day long. I wouldn't want the tweeter to be placed several feet from the midrange... but one foot up higher where the ear is more sensative to detail, may outweigh the theory of having everything arrive at the exact same time. We're not talking about a stadium here. In a car's interior, the acoustical delay is negligible. However, I still agree that components will sound better than coaxial speakers regardless of where you mount the tweeter. To mount the tweeter of a component system over the midrange just like a coaxial speaker would provide a better sound DUE TO THE DISCRETE CROSSOVER. This separate crossover is what is truly responsible for the improvement in sound from components verses coaxial speakers. Of course one must also take in to consideration the makeup of the materials of each speaker, etc. BUT a 24db/octave crossover is going to provide much crisper sounds, and less of a "null" than a simple highpass coupling cap typical of a coaxial speaker. This REAL crossover is what makes components sound cleaner than coaxials.... not so much the placement that systek talks about by having the speakers on the same plane. The sharper the crossover, the narrower the notch between speaker signals. Less notch, less smear... Having speakers on the same plane is not a bad thing... I agree, that it is important... but if it was absolutely neccessary, why do they make tweeters that swivel? Even in LARGE home speakers... the tweeter may be mounted two feet above the woofer, and midrange... A home speaker system with horns for the high frequency will typically have them tiltable to adjust the path to the ear. At high frequencies, directivity is the key. The ears are very sensative to directivity above 10Khz, yet they can't tell where sound comes from at subwoofer frequencies... It is a definite compromise with every installation and every situation. So again, "To each his own"...

If you have enough voltage gain in your aftermarket amp (and you probably would) then you could probably drive it into clipping BEFORE the HU went into compression. It would take some playing around with gains to optimize things, and still the HU speaker amp is probably not that super linear.

So I would go with the Preamp outs FIRST to feed the new EQ. If you run into ground loop troubles, etc. Then try bypassing the stock EQ (per Iggy's method... I'm sure he'll post his schematic that we came up with again) and then use the speaker outs.

As for how to connect the bare wires to the NEW EQ... Obviously, you will have to make up some new RCA connectors. That is really not that hard to do. You can buy RCAs by themselves and solder them to the end of the cut wires, or you could add a short extension from a cable that already had factory mounted RCAs on one end of the cable. I would probably go this latter route. The harness is very tight behind the HU and I doubt that the cut wires would reach up to the new EQ. So just buy a pair of GOOD SHIELDED RCA cables. Cut one cable in half and you have a set. Make it just long enough to reach up to the new EQ with a little extra room to manuever things.

YOU WILL NEED TO BYPASS THE FACTORY EQ WHEN USING THE PREAMP OUTS FROM THE HU. You can't simply disconnect the EQ. The HU pre-out to the EQ input and the EQ out back to the HU speaker amp input are all on the SAME BLACK connector. THE BLUE CONNECTOR IS FOR THE SPEAKER OUTS ONLY. SO YOU SIMPLY CAN'T JUST UNPLUG THE EQ... To unplug the connector going to the EQ would also disconnect the signal feeding the HU speaker output stage... Once you cut the signal wires from the HU to the EQ, if you simply leave the EQ wires unterminated, they will cause strange effects to the bass response fed out of the EQ which DOES GO BACK TO A SEPARATE SUBWOOFER AMP MOUNTED IN THE REAR OF THE RIGHT BACK SEAT. So you must properly terminate the unused factory EQ wires to avoid this anomaly and to also avoid engine noise/whine.

ALSO IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE!!! I don't believe that I have seen it mentioned in this thread. But for those that want to know all about the effects of bypassing the stock EQ... YOU WILL LOSE AROUND 6DB-10DB of level in the Bypass process! This is why it doesn't work with the stock headunit and aftermarket speakers. The signal is now nice and flat... but there is not enough level to sufficiently feed aftermarket speakers. The factory HU speaker amp itself doesn't even get driven up into its compression range. Again, that is why I came up with my DX6 mods to defeat the EQ at the speaker itself. That's an unorthodoxed method, but it works effectively on that particular speaker. However, for those who are adding the Three.1 EQ in place of the stock EQ or are adding an aftermarket amp... you should have plenty of voltage gain to make up for the gain that is lost through the EQ stage.

Part 2 to follow:
Southbound

Southbound

PART 2...

The actual wiring connections to use from the HU pre-outs to the new EQ input could take some trial and error. Again, the factory system is very finicky. Ground loops, and electrical noise are a constant concern. BUT, I would start out with taking the TWO balanced Left and Right wires from the HU pre-out and solder them to a piece of shielded coax that has pre-fabricated RCAs on the other end. Then you can plug this "extension" into the new EQ. I assume that the RCA cable only has two wires... a center conductor and a shield. I would connect the common signal from the HU pre-out to the shield and the Left positive signal to the center RCA conductor. I would also tie the common from the HU pre-out to the other cable's shield and the right positive signal to the center RCA conductor. (This makes a solder junction of three wires for the common... the common wire coming out of the HU and the left and right commons for the two RCAs feeding the new EQ). Do the same thing for the RCA cables that come back out of the NEW EQ and feed back into the HU or your new aftermarket amp. IF YOU USE A NEW AFTERMARKET AMP... you may or may not need to tie the common together between the input and output of the factory HU. TRIAL AND ERROR WILL BE IN ORDER HERE... BUT it is ESSENTIAL to tie the commons together in order to properly bypass the EQ and use the factory HU for its speaker outputs. (then again, that approach doesn't provide enough volume and is not really a viable solution) I don't know the result of leaving the common OPEN on the HU speaker amp inputs coming back from the EQ even though the speaker output stage of the HU is to be unused? This would be the case if the Three.1 EQ is to feed an aftermarket amp.... In that case the common on the HU that would normally be fed back from the EQ would be left open along with its signal wires???? In that case I would probably tie the HU inputs to the common with a 100ohm resistor. If that works... great. Then you might have to also tie the common back to the other common coming out of the HU??? You may also need to tie the left, right and common HU input wires all together directly? Although I would try a 100ohm resistor first to prevent shorting out something that might not be happy? I sure wish I had a schematic of the actual amplifiers! The grounding is very critical with all of these components together. Do not confuse the "FLOATING GROUND COMMONS" with HARD CHASSIS GROUNDS. The commons between the factory HU and the factory EQ need to be cut so that the factory EQ is isolated from the factory HU itself. This will perform the complete EQ bypass. You will end up with 6 cut wires leaving 12 open wires to contend with. (left, right, common from HU out to EQ in.... and left, right, common from EQ out to HU return in) The six wires attached to the HU have been connected as described above. The six wires attached to the factory EQ need to be terminated as follows:

1. Tie the Left EQ in to the Left EQ out
2. Tie the Right EQ in to the Left EQ out
3. Tie the common EQ in to the Common EQ out.

This has proven to provide STABLE operation of the bass signal output from the factory EQ and also has eliminated engine and elecrical noise.

If This configuration doesn't work... then there are other options to try with grounding, balanced, unbalanced inputs, etc. Worst case, I'm sure a stable method can be accomplished by resorting to using the HU speaker outs to the Three.1 EQ. But I would try this method first.

OK that just took me two hours to complete... On Christmas Eve at that... Hope it helps... but you will have to be on your own with some of this. Sometimes it just takes trial and error and a LOT of patience.

Good Luck!

PEACE AND JOY EVERYBODY...
Southbound

systek

i was bored at work and did a search for this eq wire hack. so i thought id resurrect it while i was at it...since ppl have been talking about the dx6 mod and bypassing the eq....

systek

geez...good thing my "cojones" dont get big when im surfing online only.

lots of tough statements here...so i'll make this quick. u have some misinformation and some half truths posted here. since u think most ppl who can afford this car arent too good w/tools and manual labor, i guess im correct to assume that most wont get into the finer details of creating an sql sound system in this car. if this wasnt the case, more ppl would try to refute ur soundstage impacting tweet placement opinions.

if ur info is enough to get most members through their simple upgrades, more power to u. when it comes to my comments and opinions, it usually has to deal w/the more complex and, ultimately, utter bliss of being able to reach a loft goal in sonic nirvana.

btw, i guess its a good thing i have a soldering iron and soldering gun to boot...as well as a propane torch, for those soldering projects that just have to be done by myself...im such a diy'er

Iggy

Kewl,
Just wondering. Hope you had a great x-mass. BTW....... I found a set of Comptech sways under the tree this morning. I can't believe the the wife pulled it off without my not knowing.:wow: Thank gawd for the heated garage, those pups will be in tomorrow!
Meanwhile, I've allready had the snowblower out once tonight, looks like were in for almost 15 inches of snow. Talk about a white christmass

cheers,
Iggy

systek

actually, like i mentioned, i worked yesterday. also at work right now. volunteered cause there is sooo much more money involved when we work during holidays.

anyway, i get off in 1.5 hrs and will be hitting some bars...wooooohooooooo!

Southbound

Why can't you just leave things well enough alone? From your quote above it was obvious that you felt like most people who had the money to purchase a TLS should have the skills and know how to upgrade the sound system all by themselves... A complicated Bose system at that??? I just don't get you... My reference to this quote of yours in another message was simply making the point clear that money has nothing to do with where one's expertise or handy skills lie.

So I have come up with a very nice and neat way for anyone to perform an easy yet beneficial upgrade to the stock Bose system. Yet, I still get plenty of timid TLS OWNERS who obviously had the money to buy the car, but lack the experience to work on the sound system. They are my target readers. Again, these inexperienced yet interested owners, many times lack the tools, skills, and courage to tackle even a simple speaker replacement... Even a replacement like the DX6 that doesn't require the fabrication of a baffle plate, and is essentially plug and play, still makes them doubt their abilities... So to those people, their only other option is to seek out a car audio shop and have them do the work for them... Once they go to an audio shop, then they have a myriad of choices to chose from. At that point, they might as well go ahead and upgrade the entire system. I'm sure the salesman wouldn't let them get out the door before trashing a simple install like the DX6 and start advocating further upgrades like you have done here... Those who are "do it yourselfers" and are familiar with car audio, can easily determine whether or not the simple DX6 upgrade is sufficient for them or not... They have an idea what to expect from such a mod, and can decide whether or not to skip it and proceed with more elaborate upgrades all by themselves. They are the ones who have all the tools necessary for the job... soldering irons AND jigsaws. THEY DON'T NEED YOU TO TELL THEM THAT THERE ARE OTHER OPTIONS AVAILABLE... EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT! For those people, I agree that your mounting baffle plate is a GOOD idea. I can see where that would be very handy in certain cases. I also respect your very informative website... BUT that still doesn't teach complete novices the art of soldering, or crimping, or grounding techniques, or power tool use, etc. Many still can't grasp the basics like polarity, etc. Those are the people that I'm trying to help out here in my sticky. I have left the larger system upgrade topics to professionals like streeteffectz. He is a class act! He has complimented me on my contributions and I have complimented him. Why is it so difficult for us to reach that same mutual respect? I have stated time and time again that I RESPECT your area of expertise... I just point out the differences between my level of upgrade and its intended use to your advice that will utterly confuse the complete novice. I have yet to hear you acknowledge my expertise.

We have been discussing in depth DAILY about the DX6 upgrade for over 6 months on this board... MANY owners have successfully installed the speakers and have reported satisfying results. A few have gone on to exchange the DX6s for better component systems down the road, once they caught the upgrade fever. Why have you just now shown up to denounce the upgrade once the "sticky" was posted? We have been talking about it and its place in the heirarchy of car audio systems for months now.

I have been asked more than once to become a moderator on the audio forum here, due to my positive attitude and willingness to go to great lengths to help those in need.

Yes, I ended up with very thankful and kind people creating a sticky for my work on the DX6 upgrade mod. These speakers retailed for $169.00... there was a point where FRYS was clearing them out for $59.00 a pair. That is when I brought the subject to the board. You just couldn't beat the entire mod routine. Worst case, pitch the speakers and start over once you catch the fever and want to do major mods to your system. That is where my head was coming from. I have contended from the beginning that this was not the ultimate upgrade, nor was it the only upgrade out there. But still, you contest it, and you detest me for having been given a sticky for my work on the project. Otherwise, I can see no reason as to why you keep coming at me in "doubleback" talk... You contradict yourself with each post. I am at least consistent.

I have put more time into this board than most anyone over the past six months and I believe that I have helped many a novice learn and feel good about themselves by learning to become their own "do it yourselfers"... I have maintained a professional attitude and have resisted confrontations until now. Yes, I could debate you about the tweeter placement over and over. You contend that if the tweeters were in the sail panels that the sound would hit you first from the left and then second from the right, then the rears, etc. etc. While that may be true... the acoustical time delay between 2 feet away and 4 feet away is inconsequential. What DOES make a difference is the fact that Sound pressure level dissipates at the square of the distance. So the tweeter that is 4 feet away would hit your ear at a volume 6db down from the tweeter that is only 2 feet away. This would be objectionable... but that's what a balance control is made for. Then as you say the rears will be coming in at varying degrees of amplitude as well... The time lag, AT HIGH FREQUENCIES, again is inconsequential. So I will opt for high frequency DETAIL and endure center soundstage alteration as a tradeoff. Face it... you will never get great soundstaging from a car audio system IN THE DRIVER'S SEAT! Again, to each his own. Some may prefer to keep the tweeters down low to try and accomplish a better soundstage... but the ears will lose some delicate detail, especially at 80mph. It's all in the way that you use it.

Maybe I am proud of my sticky afterall, and have grown fond enough of it to become defensive? In any case, I don't like what this banter between us has created in me. I am used to giving my opinions and the benefit of my 30 years of designing professional grade amplifiers. I have always admitted that I'm not that familiar with today's car audio systems. I have always worked with high powered full range professional amps and 1/3 octave equalizers, and incremental power amps with incremental time delays for stadium uses. I leave the intricacies of car audio to other experts like streeteffectz. I have never come across condescending to anyone, especially the novice... Now, I feel like your posts have driven me in that direction. I won't let that continue. I don't want to lose the respect that I have earned from others on this board...

I don't expect us to see eye to eye... but can't we at least agree to respect each other? YOUR BAFFLE PLATE IS A GREAT IDEA! So is my DX6 mod that doesn't require such work and defeats the EQ beast at the same time... all for around $200bucks total!

As a last word... I see that you appear to be a friend of Iggy? Any friend of Iggy, is a friend of mine... He has earned my trust and respect.

Keep your good information coming forward... but please find a way to be more tactful in your criticisms... I'll try to do the same...

PEACE AGAIN!
Southbound

bozzchem

Southbound,

Based upon your initial resonse to my question:

I hope you don't feel that I've disrespected your knowledge. If you feel that I have, I apologize. I have half of your posts saved in my favorites folder. I didn't save the other half since many of them are just you patiently re-explaining things you've already explained.

Southbound

No prob... No disrespect taken... I apologize to everyone for coming off too opinionated and strong sometimes... I really am a humble man willing to help all when in need, whenever I can.

Thanks for reading my ramblings...

Southbound

bozzchem

Don't sweat it dude. This time of year, which is supposed to be full of cheer and joy, is THE most stressful time of year! (Your posts are NEEDED on this board!! Don't stress out on us)

I had to juggle between my family and the inlaws on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day (Thanks to my 11 month old duaghter that EVERYONE just HAD to see!!)

After it was all over, my bed never looked so good as it did last night. I actually looked forward to going to work today!!!

I hope your holiday experience wasn't quite so stressful!

Either way, it's over!!! Yeah!!! Now I get to finish installing my rear spoiler this weekend. Plus, I should have time to install the interconnects, relay, and speaker wire for the sound system that's on its way.

It's a shame that you only see these people a few times a year but yet you kind of breathe a sigh of relief once they're gone and you have your life back.

Now, for this weekends projects: I have to install the subwoofers I bought my brother, create and finish the amp board I'm going to use in my car, re-install and vacuum everything....THEN take pictures so I can post!!! @#$%^@ I don't think this will all take place this weekend. I'll keep you guys posted though...

Is it just me that thinks these evil thoughts? It's not that I don't love the relatives.....it's just that too much at one time tends to frazzle the hell out of me!!!!!!!!


Cheers!!

Southbound

You're not alone bozz... I too have been doing the balancing act between MY family and MY WIFE'S family... Who gets more attention and time? What's fair? Who spends what on who? When do you quit giving gifts and just exchange love? etc. etc.

SO I THINK YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD! I'm still traveling out of state tomorrow to spend time with my sister's family to do the good Uncle routine... and my wife can't go because of work... so things are still tense... I think that is what got me so worked up over these particular posts. I got caught up in the childish game about attention, I guess??? STUPID!

Anyway, thanks for understanding, and the good thing about the road trip is taking it in the TLS WITH NEW CDS!

GOOD LUCK ON YOUR INSTALL WORK... you should have a very nice system when you are finished. Thanks for you insightful posts as well. WE ARE ALL NEEDED ON THIS BOARD... that's what makes it so great! It's a brotherhood sort of thing... with a few sisters as well...

HAPPY NEW YEAR!
SB

systek

hey, do u know what working 3rd shift can do to ur brain??? yeh, exactly...that comment on the other thread was incorrect, thanks for having eyes like a hawk and catching that for me(i have changed it to read accurately) arent was changed to are

anyway, im here at work again...and not in the mode to justify myself...but its cool to know u design amplifiers. just a small pointer, not only are time delays caused by 4 different speakers when tweets are located separeately from their respective mids, but u also cause phase shifts at the xover point that further affect sq. and btw, u should know that db are exponential. in other words, it has been tested and noted that every 3dbs in measurement is perceived by the human ear as double as loud. so 6dbs is a huge difference that is audible. power wise what does that mean? in order to fix the problem, you have to turn the gains down considerably on all the other speakers, which can only be done if you have biamped ur comps, or boost that offending tweeter. if it is recieving 50 watts at that attenuation, you would have to give it 200watts in order to compensate for the difference...not likely, imho.

im sure there is no doubt u have helped alot of ppl, but who has more post counts? u do, but not by much...so in effect, we are pretty much helping ppl at the same rate...(remember, ive been on about a 5 mth hiatus from this forum) btw, i havent been on this forum for a long time because i did everything i wanted to my car, which ive had for a year now and know intimately, in part thanks to this forum! ive been going through a divorce(not that u need to know that) and havent been paying much attention to the car lately, so why go to the forum and be reminded of mods that i can no longer afford to try achieving? hey, at least i didnt lose the house or the car.

im barely getting back on my feet and am starting to work on the sound system again(new amps, new subs, maybe new comps in those pesky shallow doors) so in the spirit of good will, i decided to venture back into the forum and ck out what others have been up to. its a shame things got out of hand. but ya know, i didnt attack u personally at all. i didnt initiate it either. tough to imagine that, being that im good friends w/*********, who was banished from here...(if u knew him u know what i mean about attitudes) anyway, im still not mad at u...much less jealous. and if u dont beleive me, well southbound, u are a smart cookie. take that to the bank...im out to lunch

systek

hmm, im just a mischievous diyer... http://members.cardomain.com/systek trust me, this isnt the same site as my tls...

MadJap

If I am not mistaken, that information about sound pressure level is incorrect.

It takes twice the power output from the amplifier to raise the sound pressure level by 3 dB. 3dB is barely noticible by human ear as "a bit louder".
Using this logic, it would take quadruple the power to increase the SPL by 6 dB, and eight times the power to raise it by 9dB.
By definition, every 10 dB inrease in SPL is "twice as loud". The common factor used in "doubling the SPL = 10 times the power.

Just to clarify:

If 1 watt into a Polk DX6 = 90 dB (as per their published 90dB/1w/1m), then,
10 watts to the DX6 would yield 100 dB (twice as loud).
Theoretically, 100 watts would yield 110 dB SPL (4 times as loud).

bozzchem

I believe MadJap is correct on this. It takes double the amplifier POWER to yield a 3dB increase.

(This was actually one of Dynamat's original "ploys" to sell dampening material. They indicated that dampening all possible sheetmetal could effectively raise SPL by 3dB, which in turn would be the equivalent to doubling your amplifier power. Dynamat is generally cheaper than an amp twice as powerful as your existing one!)

Go to this site and use the scrolling directory on the right hand side until you see decibels.

There is good info as well as some calcs available.

http://www.eatel.net/~amptech/elecdisc/caraudio.htm

This is why I believe it's more important to have an efficient speaker than a powerful amplifier. 65W, 85W, 105W....I highly doubt you'll notice a huge difference in SPL. (< 3 dB). However, the price difference can be astounding between a 65Wx4 vs. a 105Wx4 amp.

I do think you will notice a difference in musicality and clarity with a more powerful amplifier depending upon the speaker the power is applied to.

These are just my observations. YMMV.

Cheers.

systek

hmmm, i always thought 3db is perceived as twice as loud....oh well, i could be wrong about that. regardless, you are right, it does take double the power to add 3dbs to ur spl, in a perfect world of course.

i thought i had made that point clear...sorry. but it is true...double that power for every 3db increase to spl. bozzchem is correct though about using more power to ur comps for better clarity and musicality. the more power u have on hand, the better dynamic range you have for those instant peaks, whether you are dealing w/bass or mid or high frequencies! that is why ive used at least 200wrms to my pair of comps in use for the past 5 yrs. set the gains and xover on the comps properly and u will have healthy comps that can last a great while w/out mechanical failure(of course the better quality comp you start off with, the better)

Southbound

YES, doubling the power increases the SPL by 3db... (4X equals 6db, 8X equals 9db, 16X equals 12db, etc. etc.) And every 10 db equals 10X power... (10db equals 10X power, 20db equals 100X power, 30db equals 1000X power, etc. etc.)

THAT IS FACT!

Luckily, most of the time 1-10 watts is a typical listening level. Because as it has been mentioned here, and you can see by the logarithmic progression above, that it is VERY dificult to add 30db to your SPL. You would have to have a 1000 watt RMS amp to get 120db SPL out of the DX6s (before they exploded) So a 100 watt amp doesn't gain you as more volume from the stock 20watt amp as you would assume... (6db-7db, which is detectable and noticable, but not overwhelming)As Systek says, it does provide "headroom" for peaks which gains you dynamic range and less distortion, and a noticable difference in volume. SO IT IS WELL WORTH DOING... but it doesn't make the incredible volume difference that you would first think. It's another couple of clicks on the dial louder, BUT A LOT CLEANER due to the increased dynamic range that SYSTEK has pointed out.

So EVERYBODY has made some right claims in their responses here. As far as DBs and THE EAR... One decibel was determined to be the MINIMUM change that the human ear can detect. Anything less than one db, the human ear can't detect. Thus the decibel was adopted as the REFERENCE level for audio SPL thresholds. It is a "relative" NOT a "specific" number. So if ONE db is the smallest increment that the ear can detect, 3db is only a "SLIGHT" change... regardless of what you are comparing the change to... i.e, 50db SPL to 53db SPL or 100db SPL to 103dbSPL will still only be a slight change. There have been many debates about how many DB equals "TWICE" the sound to the ear. Everything in nature is logarithmic... that's why there is a logarithmic base called the "natural" logarithm base, as well as logarithms referenced to "Base 10". (take light for example... it's just like the sound curve... a 100W light bulb does not put out twice the light as a 50W light bulb "to the eye"... Luckily One candle power happens to be a decent amount of light... just like a SPL of only a few db starts out as audible sound. BUT TO DOUBLE THE LIGHT OR THE SOUND TO THE EYE OR EAR... You don't consider doubling the power, you consider doubling the DB level. This then, takes into account the logarithmic nature of the human senses.

I have heard the 10db equals approximately twice the loudness to the ear rule... but it only works within a limited range. I feel that it is more relevant to the particular reference SPL that you happen to be listening to. If your SPL is 50db... then 25db would sound like half volume and it would take 100db SPL to sound twice as loud. So the amount of power required to make an apparant increase in "SPL LOUDNESS" VARIES depending upon what level of SPL you are starting out with as a reference. This theory would follow the logarithmic nature of decibels and how they are calculated.

Just my .02cents...

Iggy

Southy,
As usual, you have hit THE NAIL ON THE HEAD. Gosh, I wish I were as articulate as you are! Hey, BTW, long time no talk. How you been?

You probably saw UAL is in dire straits. I hope I have a job next year, but hey, that's aviation for ya. I still have that Beck's dark and lobster Bisque waitin' for you when you get your butt out here.

Sorry for the thread drift,
Iggy

Southbound

Iggy,
Good to hear from you as well! How's the TLS handle in the winter weather? I just had a friend come back from Boston for the Holidays. He brought me some "Chocolate Lobsters"... I don't think that compares to the Becks Dark, and Lobster Bisque though!

I have been thinking about you when all the news about UAL hit the fan... Hopefully things go by some sort of seniority? If you're jumping the pond in a 767, then I would think that would make you very senior with several "Type" ratings? That's got to take a lot more experience than the shuttle routes... It's very impressive to me anyway, as I'm only holding onto a Private ASEL ticket with less than 1,000 hours. I hope the New Year does keep you in your work ride. Are you in the left or right seat? I suppose that helps with job security as well?

Sorry for the thread drift as well. My aplogies to the moderators... but sometimes touching bases helps to keep us feel like family, and keeps us coming back to post more info.

CHEERS! Southy

P.S. I'm sure you're more articulate than me when it comes to ATC work.

Darkshear

iTrader: (1)

Im tottaly with Southy on the low level thing.

I didnt even bother with the EQ bypass, i just tapped the low levels right from the HU. I dropped the $$$ for the new big daddy Boston Pro Z6's (the best sound speaker in the world IMO, even better than Q's and QSD's) so i wanted the cleanest, best signal i could get.

But yah, i do get a little engine whine. No big deal though, i usually have it up so frickin loud i cant hear myself think

yield2s

I KNOW ITS OLD BUT DONT DO IT UNLESS YOU ADD AN AMP!!! only has about half volume on stock HU

TLProspect

don't bypass the EQ settings without a new amp or don't just hook up new speakers to the HU without a new amp?