Southbound, you're right on the money with the so-called "expert installer" opinions... . That's why I installed all my car stereo myself, except the head unit and the front speakers, just because I already paid for the install cost at Al & Eds. I purchased them on Black Friday last year and they had a buy 1 get 1 free deal and I had to pay the installation cost.

Like you, I don't like to see some "stranger" touch or work on my car. I installed springs and shocks on it myself too awhile back.

I've been so busy at work this week and had no chance to get another Eagles CD. I'll try to do it this coming week and post the result here.

Yes, we're lucky to have people who really know what they're talking about here.

 

Have you tried your RC network using better quality caps?

Several years ago a friend and I swapped out the electrolytics with metallized polyester caps in the crossovers of our home speakers. The difference was mind boggling, and sounds very similar to the result of your RC network mod. The biggest difference we noticed was with cymbals. When the drummer hit a crash cymbal and we listened through the electrolytics, the cymbal would fade almost immediately. After swapping the caps out the fade time was almost identical to real life. The entire high end sounded so much more crisp, clean and considerably less distorted.

 

TRUST ME!
Ceramic disc or mica caps are the BEST quality of cap to be used for this particular mod!!!

You are correct in stating that electrolytic caps suck for passing audio. HOWEVER, this mod does NOT directly affect the audio signal. It indirectly affects the audio by keeping down high frequency disturbance effects over the length of the speaker wire.

While MYLAR, POLYPROPYLENE, POLYSTYRENE, POLYESTER, and other "plastic" caps are much better for passing ACTUAL audio... they are not that effective up at RF. They, like electrolytics, become inductive up at very high frequencies. Therefore, for the purposes intended here, they would begin to defeat their purpose. They begin to act more like an inductor than a cap at the ULTRA SONIC frequencies involved in this mod.

YES, I would lose an electrolytic cap in a second, as an actual audio coupling cap in favor of one of the better sonic grade plastic dielectric caps. BUT I GUESS YOU DIDN'T GET THE POINT OF MY MOD...

We're NOT passing audio through my cap! I would NEVER use a CERAMIC DISC CAP as a "coupling" cap for audio in a crossover network. BUT THIS IS A BYPASS CAP APPLICATION!

Each type of cap has an intended best use. A MICA cap would be my first choice for this RF type of application. BUT a .05uf mica cap is hard to find and would be VERY LARGE. A mica cap is very temperature stable as compared to the ceramic disc cap. The ceramic disc cap does vary around over temperature, but again this is NOT a graphic equalizer circuit where critical component values are required. Cerarmic disc caps are lousy for audio, as you have suggested, but they are GREAT for bypassing RF! And that's their intended purpose in my mod...

Hope this helps clarify things? You are right in your analogy of what to expect to hear from this mod. The sound improvement sounds similar to the improvements made by replacing crappy "audio" "coupling" caps with better grade components. BUT the means by which it accomplishes this improvment is completely different. Your crossover mod DIRECTLY affects the audio signal... My termination mod INDIRECTLY affects the audio signal. Both improve the sound, but they are by no means close to the same type of process. They are completely two different situations. You can do both and realize an improvement through each mod!

Please try the mod out FIRST and then critique its effect. I've been doing this sort of thing for 30 years now.... NO HARD FEELINGS THOUGH! Having someone second guess my practices, only keeps me on my feet.

Southbound

 

South bound, I have been looking arround and have found .047 uF caps and 100 ohm resistors of various level of wattage. For 40 cents I can get a 20W wire wound resistor... Does it matter what type of resistor or if it is a higher wattage or not? Also there seem to be several types of ceramic disc caps... what is the best kind for this...

thanks alot.
Mike

 

Judging by your messages, I wouldn't presume to second guess you, as you obviously have had a great deal of actual experience.

I just wondered if you had tried it...

I have used high quality interconnects in my home system for 15+ years, and I can tell the difference. I never bothered to try the good stuff in the car, simply because I assumed that the engine noise, road noise etc would almost negate the slight improvement in performance. Th most I ever did in the car was to use 12AWG wire and mil-spec connectors for the speaker and power harnesses.

Maybe when I replace the factory system I'll have to try it out. I still have a mess of 12 and 14 AWG OFC speaker wire left over from various home installations.

I WILL do the RC mod as well. As long as I wrap everything in heatshrink tubing to avoid the risk of shorting to the door panel, it can't hurt anything...

Just to let you know that I'm not just some schlub with a big mouth, I've worked as an assembler and tech for an aerospace and defence manufacturer for the past 20 years. My work lives in 12 Canadian Patrol Frigates, Canadian Coyote Reconnaisance Vehicles, countless APCs, M1 main battle tanks, and the ground support segment for the International Space Station.

I just wish my company would branch out into high end audio...

 

Hey Sask,
You have my aplogies for coming off perterbed in my last post. You had valid questions and obviously know something about audio as well... It was just one of those days.

sniper,
You can use ANY type of ceramic disc cap that you find. AGAIN, this is NOT a critical component required mod. BUT there are some basic design criteria to follow.

A .047uF cap is CLOSE ENOUGH for this mod. Just make sure the voltage rating is high enough for your systems power. A 50volt rated cap is good enough for the stock system and can be found at Radio Schlock. But if you upgrade to a 100watt amp someday, you will want 100volt caps. Any voltage above that just gives you all the much more better margin of safety. I have found 1kv caps to be relatively easy to find. Just look at electronic supply stores, etc.

The 100ohm resistor... Due to the frequencies involved, a 1Watt value is all that you need. NO MATTER HOW POWERFUL YOUR AUDIO SYSTEM IS. There is NOT any power up at those frequencies. The resistor is used more as a "stabilizing" effect than to actually absorb power. I wouldn't go below 1watt though, because there is SOME power up at 20Khz, and smaller resistors get easier to break, etc. If you go higher, I'd stick to 2watts. Anything bigger is just BIGGER and GETS IN THE WAY OF THE INSTALL! Your 20watt resistor would just be INSANE overkill, and would probably get in the way of things when you tried to connect it. In fact it would also be self defeating... IF you listen to how you described it you would know why... You said it is a "WIREWOUIND" resistor. Think about that word for a momement and you will realize that it's actually a "COIL" made up of resistive wire. Therefore, as a coil, it will become INDUCTIVE up at the high frequencies that we are trying to tame. At high frequencies it would have a much higher resistance (impedance) than 100ohms. DON'T USE THE 20WATT WIREWOUND RESISTOR... There's TWO strikes against it. If you can find a 100ohm/ 1watt or 2watt "metal film" resistor... That would be best. If not, any old carbon composition resitor will do. Just stay away from any wirewound types. You might want to use a 20watt resisitor of this type IN SERIES with your speaker some day as an attenuator or something, but NOT for this mod...

Thanks for the interest guys!

Sask, Yeah, I've been using really high quality interconnects at home as well for 10 years now and do notice their obvious improvements. That's what got me started into seeing if I could accomplish their task with another approach. That led to this speaker wire terminator mod. I have actually compared kimber kable with straight generic zipcord with the terminator mod and they sounded REAL close to the same. Without the mod, the kimber Kable obviously sounded better than "lampcord". BUT THAT'S THE BEAUTY of this mod. It can make ordinary speaker wire sound like EXPENSIVE wire! You just have to have the ears and listening experience to notice the difference with either type of speaker wire upgrade. You're right about assuming that road noise, etc. might just mask out any of the improvments of upgrading the speaker wires... BUT I've found that NOT to be the case. Granted, I've done all of my A-B tests sitting parked in my garage. BUT if I hear it there, FOR $1.99... YOU CAN BET THAT I'M GONNA LEAVE IT ON FOR THE ROAD!

Thanks again for your input!

Southbound

 

alright southy.... Although, regardless of this post, or your response, I will admit that I am going to go ahead and try this... BUT>>>>>

I also have a BS in EE. And I was giving some thought to what you are sugesting... I want to make a statement first, to make sure I understand what you are proposing... You are saying We should take a 100 ohm resistor and put that in series with the ceramic cap... Put one end of that network into the + terminal of the speaker, and the other into the Neg terminal? If this is correct, and i believe it is after re-reading your post several time... This should have roughly, uhhhh, hmmmm, NOT A DAMN EFFECT on anything.... The 100 ohm resistor in series with the cap, well the cap will look like an open at low freq, and a short at higher... so at lower freq there is NO effect on the sound coming out of the speaker because the added components do not make a closed loop in the circuit... At higher freq when the cap starts to pass some of the signal, it still should make no difference because the network is in paralell with the the speaker, so both still get the same signal... the same signal that was there before... so it should not change anything... and even if the cap turned into a short, at very high freq, then what have you really done... you have put a 100 ohm resistor in paralell with your speaker... well that is not a great idea... what is the point of that... The overal resitance will actually go down below 8ohms... that is not going to smooth the music out... or make anything more clear....

Again, i might have misunderstood, but I put in a call to a Doc who runs the EE department at the naval academy, explained the posts here and the suggested fix to clean up music a little, he also agrees that these components would not have any effect stricly because they are put in paralell with the speaker. In lamons terms, if something is in series with the signal, it has a chance to change it whether that is cleaning it or smoothing, amplifying, whatever, but by putting the componets in parralell, you are not do anything to the signal the speaker gets, therefore not going to change the output of the speaker...

Maybe I am missing something, maybe the Cap charges and discharges slightly with the music, causeing it to sound smoother, or maybe I dont know what else, but if anyone else has some thoughts on this.... I dont know....

Thanks for reading if you made it this far, sorry for the sloppy typing, I am tired

 

ABSOLUTELY no need to apologize.... You should hear some of the "conversations" my buddies and I go through...

So... have you heard the latest generation of Boston Acoustics car speakers? I had a pair of C-700s that I moved between three different cars before age finally did them in (15 years). They were the best car speakers I have ever heard. I was just wondering if they STILL make great speakers.

I probably won't plan to replace the factory system for a while (got bigger fish to fry), but within the next year or so I want to replace the head unit and most of the speakers.

First I want to get a few pages copied from the service manual related to the power and speaker harnesses. I tend to research the hell out of something, and therefore only do a single installation.

I also need to find out how the factory head unit handles output and equalization of the dome light tweeters. They must be almost turned off, because I can JUST barely hear them. I'd like to set them up so I can turn them up and provide a time delay to match the output of the dash tweeters. Maybe then I will have true stereo high end for both driver and passenger sides.

By the way... what year of TL do you drive? If it's a 97, have you done anything with the dome light tweeters?

 

alright, I am in MD VA DC area, and I have gone to Radio crap and picked up a pair of 100 ohm 1watt resistors, but for the life of me i cant not find ANY PLACE here or online that has .05uf 1kV caps... anyone help me out?

 

Alright sniper,
I completely understand your skepticism. You are absolutely right in stating that it SHOULDN'T have a damn effect whatsoever... "DIRECTLY" on audio, that is. However, AGAIN!!! this RC network is designed to treat the speaker wire as if it were video or RF cable. The 100ohm resistor in PARALLEL with the speaker does absolutely nothing to the AUDIO signal as you have stated. BUT THE IMPEDANCE OF A SPEAKER UP AT RF IS NOT THE SAME AS DOWN AT AUDIO!!! So the part that you aren't getting is that while a typical speaker may present an impedance of around 4ohms down in the audio spectrum... SINCE IT IS INDUCTIVE BY NATURE OF ITS VOICE "COIL", it will have an infinite impedance up at RF! The 100ohm resistor keeps a stable resistive load as seen by the amplifier EVEN UP AT THESE VERY HIGH FREQUENCIES! It also terminates the speaker wire into its characteristic impedance up at those frequencies as well. That is the POINT of the mod! As a BSEE yourself, I can't believe that you don't understand my theory here??? ASK YOUR PHD what would happen to a video signal that is being fed long distances on ordinary UNTERMINATED zipcord!!! IT WOULD LOOK LIKE H&LL! WHY? Because of a very simple concept known as the "Characteristic Impedance" of a cable! Now where you would have a valid argument is... Who cares about the characteristic impedance of speaker wire? We are ONLY passing audio through it and the wavelength at audio frequencies would be so long that any VSWR considerations would be negligible, RIGHT? There is no energy up above the audio range to be considered, RIGHT? Who cares what the amplifier sees as a load, or what impedance the speaker wire presents at 1Mhz? All of those questions would be valuable skeptical arguments.
I can't answer all of them here... But as a simplified explanation... Consider this... A video signal fed down a cable that is NOT terminated into its characteristic impedance LOOKS LIKE H&LL! That much you have to agree with... NOW, I'm not saying that an audio signal fed down a speaker wire that is not terminated into its characteristic impedance sounds like h&ll... BUT IT WILL NOT SOUND AS GOOD AS ONE THAT IS TERMINATED! The longer the speaker run, the more improvement this mod will provide. I've calculated the characteristic impedance of typical zipcord and it comes out to be around 102ohms. Thus the 100ohm mod... There ARE ultra high frequency effects that are going on waaaaay above the actual audio signal that cause disturbances in the form of reflections, etc. to the actual audio signal. THIS IS THE PART WHERE YOU HAVE TO TRUST ME! I expected the skepticism, and I will only pitch this mod as long as I have the energy to defend its validity. I have nothing to gain one way or another whether or not anyone actually tries it or not... IT'S NOT LIKE I'M SELLING IT FOR MONEY... I do have dual trace scope photos of complex audio waveforms with and without the termination mod attached. If you study them CLOSELY, you can really see where the stability of the waveform is different between the two. Ringing, overshoot, and damping effects are all very much different between the two photos.

READ THE REPLY POSTS IN THIS THREAD FROM 260hp. I don't want to bring him into the mix, but he is so far the only one who has actually performed the mod and the A-B tests PROPERLY and HE DOES HEAR THE DIFFERNCE! HEARING IS BELIEVING!

You are right in your description of the circuit layout and hookup configuration. But as a fellow BSEE, I find it strange that you would have been advocating the use of a 20WATT wirewound resistor in the application. I'm sure you know the SIMPLE formula of {Fo equals one over two pi RC} If you went through that calculation with these components you would come to the conclusion that the 3db frequency break point of this RC network is up at around 32Khz. Therefor NO NEED for a 20 watt resistor. You just need something to terminate the speaker wire into its characteristic impedance, and to replace the OPEN impedance of the speaker with a stable resistive load. This termination only comes into direct play up at really high frequencies where the speaker wire WOULD present an IMPEDANCE as well as just copper resistance, and the speaker's inductance would make it look like an open circuit. It's really that simple of a mod! Also, I would understand anyone who says "It shouldn't matter at audio frequencies as to whether or not we terminate the speaker wires into their HIGH FREQUENCY characteristic impedance." You might think it shouldn't, BUT IT DOES!

Also, I'm REALLY NOT flaming here, (becasue I admit that my theories may defy conventional logic) THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX! How many times have you gone to a MEDICAL DOCTOR and have them give you bogus information. Just because a PHD tells you that this can't possibly do anything, doesn't necessarily make it so... Also as a BSEE, I would think that you would have enough resources at your disposal to locate a couple of easy to find .05uF/1kv caps. Again, I'm NOT flaming. I would just expect you to grasp the concept, DEFINITELY wonder about it, try it, and then say... hmmmmmmm I'll have to pass this along. I'll be damned, it does have an audible effect I can't help you locally where to find these caps. But surely you have some electronic connections? It sounds like you studied for a BSEE degree but have never really worked in the field? Is that the case? The last thing I want to do is come off like a "know it all" because I DON'T! But I do know discrete audio electronics...

GOOD LUCK!
Southbound

 

I am going to point out that again, I started off my first post with, I WILL TRY THIS NO MATTER WHAT YOUR RESPOSE IS, and I intend to... I do understand the concept... I understand that yes by adding a RC network to the speaker you are creating a block box that is less inductive than the speaker alone. and i understand why you impedence match. But what i fail to see, and what other electrical engineers I have talked to fail to see, is what good playing with RF is going to do for our audio freq... I understand you want to give it a stable load at the rf req, but why, we dont hear them, so what is the point...

I will try it, but it still bothers me that we are playing in the RF spectrum and trying to make the audi spectrum sound better by doing it... I spent most of my BE time working with digital circuits and microproccesors, not coms... I always hated coms... But either way, I never insulted you in any of my posts, only presented valid concerns about your logic and methods... Trying to come to a good understanding of what you are doing... I would appreciate the same respect from you and dont insult me as a ee for not understanding why this is supposed to work. if it really is this easy, then why doesnt every single spaker manufacturer spend 45 cents a speaker, and make their speakers sound better... Again I am not attacking you, just the idea....

and as far as you finding it hard to believe that a ee cant find the parts, well, i said i wouldnt attack you, there are no damn electronic parts stores arrund here that i can find, and almost every place online doenst carry anyhting like that, or at least not that i can find...

 

I had no idea my innocent little question would spark such a heated debate

sheesh... it feels like I walked in the room, pulled out a grenade, pulled the pin, dropped it and ran like hell...

 

Hey sniper... let's not snipe at each other.

I have reread my posts and don't see where I really insulted YOU. I have described my mod about a dozen times now... and in the beginning it appeared that you just did not understand the basics of it at all. That is perhaps why I became a bit distraught when I found out that you too were an EE, yet still couldn't seem to grasp my concept. I prefaced everyone of my posts with the fact that I would expect someone to second guess the validity of treating audio cables as if they were video cables. I kept saying that I expected that kind of skepticism. Yet, until your last post, all you did was ask questions like.... could you use a 20watt resistor, etc??? That just didn't sound like someone who understood what was going on. It was only in your last post that you finally relayed to me that you finally understood what the mod was made to do. Then, as I would only expect from someone with the knowledge of an EE, you finally questioned the validity of being concerned about things up at RF when we are only talking about an audio circuit... ALAS! I thought, He finally gets it! I completely understand that question. That is the same question that I get from any other engineer as well. You did preface all of your posts by saying that you would try the mod, but it was always as if only to prove me full of it... And that is certainly your right! You may still try the mod and call me full of it. But until I finally felt that you comprehended the principle of the mod, it was an INSULT TO ME... Why hasn't someone else thought of this? GOOD QUESTION? Marketing, maybe? It's easier to sell super cable than to add 50 cents worth of parts. It's also easier to sell the HIGHER model of speaker than to put 50cents worth of parts into the cheaper one... Who knows? FOR ALL I KNOW, I MIGHT JUST BE THE FIRST TO COME UP WITH THIS IDEA! IS THAT THAT IMPOSSIBLE TO BELIEVE? THAT'S WHY I HAD ALL OF MY DOCUMENTATION COPYRIGHTED YEARS AGO...

So NOW we are finally on the same page. I did NOT mean to insult you, but I guess I was upset that it took us both so long to see eye to eye. You may not believe that my mod serves any purpose, but at least you have finally relayed to me that you understand the fundamentals of the mod. So now we can at least engage in some true banter.

With that being said, let's agree to disagree! Again, I probably won't be staying up late at nights just to defend a mod that I KNOW works. I can't keep this up forever. I knew that I was opening a can of worms by even bringing it up... but I actually thought that I might be able to help out a few fellow audiophiles. It will take audiophile types to appreciate the mod. It's NOT like it makes the kind of difference that swapping out a speaker does. But it does make the kind of difference that swapping out cheap speaker wire does. I knew that I would have to spoon-feed laymen the information over and over... and I knew that I would have to justify the mod to electronically knowledgeable people like yourself. But it does get tiring...

All I can say is that SOMETHING is going on up at RF that we need to be concerned about if we want the signal to be transported as transparently as possible. I am NOT a digital engineer. I've been an analog design engineer for 25 years. I have worked with discrete analog audio, video and RF power amps all of my life. I don't have a clue about designing with the latest VHDL, or Programmable gate arrays. I'll give that area of expertise to you. I've explained most of my theories in the MANY posts about this mod... and all I can say at this point is, TRY IT! Perhaps there's more to it than meets the eye. Perhaps there's enough RF floating around here in L.A. that some of it gets into the power supply of the amp and then on down the line to the speaker outputs? Perhaps AM radio gets detected by one of the diodes and gets passed on along as well??? Perhaps the digital hash of today's microprocessors gets into the audio amps output stage? IN ANY CASE, you can SEE the difference and you can HEAR the difference by attaching this mod.

I've just dug up my old scope photos comparing dual trace scope signals with and without the mod. With COMPLEX waveforms, you can actually see the slew-rate and tilt effects of high frequency distortions going on. With a steady sinewave, the mod would not be noticable or audible. I was going to post the photos that I have scanned and highlighted to see the pulse responses that have been affected by the mod. BUT I'M TOO STUPID to know how to do it Does anybody know how the pix of the cars have been posted? I could post some cool jpg scanned scope photos of this mod's effects, if I could somehow get them on this board. THEN MAYBE YOU WOULD BELIEVE ME?

In any case, this will be my last defense of the mod. Either try it or not.... like it or not... hear it or not... It doesn't make any difference to me. I've grown weary of trying to convince people. All I wanted to do was help, but I find myself involved with LONG posts saying the SAME thing over and over and over.

PEACE! and GOOD LUCK to those of you who go ahead and try it. If someone tells my how to post some jpg images, I will continue with one more convincing post to try and provide that interesting data. Other than that, I've got to take a break from this routine... Perhaps you can order the caps through Newark or something? There's got to be an electronics store somewhere in Annapolis...

Again, my apologies to those that I have offended.
Southbound

 

Never was insulting you... I alswasy said that I would try it regardless of what your answers were b/c that is the way I am. I dont care if you say it will or wont work, I want to try it for myself, especially in EE stuff. I was never great on paper or class, I liked to learn everything experimentally.. So when i get my hands on the parts, i will head of to the lab, and get on an infinium o-scope, and see what this really or really doesnt do...

If it works, you are the man and i have no frigging idea why it works, if not, screw it, it cost me 1 buck to find out...

Have a good day, and good ideas...

 

Thanks sniper for the friendly reply.

We all have enough stress in our lives without creating friction among colleages or new found friends online. Sorry for the "tone" of some of my posts.

I think you'll find the results quite puzzling? They have puzzled me as well for years now. Yet, I'm telling you that I can be "BLINDFOLDED" and then have someone play me a song back and forth twice, blindly switching the mod on me... and I have yet to fail in telling them which way is which.



One time they even tried to trick me, and didn't change a thing in between songs. That time, at first, I felt like the mod must be in my head, becasue I had to admit to them that I couldn't tell them which version of the song had the mod. Then they told me, well it's because WE didn't change anything. We all had a laugh and I took a big sigh of relief...

Like I said, I've got some cool photos of scope pix that show slight yet significant differences between the waveforms of actual complex audio. Since I can't seem to attach them to you here online...Imagine a sine squared type of pulse that has two frequencies intermodulated. On one trace you will see the pulse rise up and take a small dip at the top in between where the two mixed frequencies are. It's like a bessel null type of thing. I wish I could draw it here... It's like a sharp sinewave where there is a 10% dip in the very top of the peak of the curve, which results in two tiny sinwaves riding like a saddle on top of the fundamental sinwave. In one case,(with the mod) the two tiny sinewaves are identical in shape and height... in the other case,(without the mod) one of the tiny sinewaves is skewed and off center, or is not quite the same amplitude as the other paired sinewave. There are also times where you will see like notch distortion on a particular wave. On one trace (with the mod)the notches are at the identical amplitude on both sides of the waveform. On the other trace,(without the mod) again, things are tilted and skewed, and the notches are offset from each other in amplitude. There's still other squared type waveforms where there's obvious tilt, sometimes in the opposite direction between mod and no mod! These effects have to be audible!

On a steady state sinewave tone, you can't see any percievable differnce at all. That is where your theory holds trure. "IF" audio were simply steady state sinewaves, then there would be no introduction of ultra sonic energy that helps to create and make up the final complex waveform. Then you would be ablsolutely right in stating that this mod can't possible do anything. But actual audio is really a combination of high frequency complex waveforms... some way higher than what we would be able to hear, or might even consider, but yet they still contribute to the audio that we do hear. I guess we could go through the "Fourier analysis" routine... but I'm too old and rusty to deal with that anymore. That is where I feel that there are some response times generated at audio that create wild rise times and waveshapes that have VERY HIGH harmonic frequencies in them well above the 20Kc range that we listen to. Take a 20kc square wave for example. We all know that it's got to be made up of several higher order harmonics just to produce it. So therefore, there are a lot of ultrasonic response times and waveshapes going on ABOVE audio that produce the final complex audio waveshape that only our ears can hear. Then there's got to be intermod beats between all of these ultra sonic waveforms that also cause strange alterations to the final mixed audio signal. The better damped and terminated that these higher order frequencies are treated, the less they interact and alter what the proper original combined complex mixed audio signal waveform should end up as. (dang, how's that for a run-on faking it descriptive use of adjectives?) So, If we've also got high order frequencey relfections running up and down the speaker wire, it's bound to change the waveshape of the original signal. Also, just like how the speaker impedance rises with frequency. So does the output impedance of an amplifier. While it may be way down at like .1ohm at 1Khz, it's output impedance rises significantly way up above audio due to the fact that it has much less negative feedback and loop gain to utillize. SO, I do believe that there are three factors at play here:

First, the stability of the amplifier up at these very high frequencies.

Second, The wild load and phase shifts that the amplifier sees in the form of a speaker up at these very high frequencies.

Third, the characterisc impedance of the speaker cable up at these very high frequencies that causes further ringing, reflections and smear of the transfer of these very high frequency compenents.

EVEN IF WE CAN'T HEAR THEM, they have an effect on the frequencies that we CAN hear. Perhaps A spectral analysis of true complex audio signals might also help to prove that this high order energy does indeed exist. albeit minor in amplitude. Nonetheless just enough to make a difference that can be noted in scope photographs and to the "critical" human ear. The difference might be like an amplifier with .25% distortion being brought down to .025%. Some people might hear it and some people might not? Those photos helped to prove to me that it was not just in my head. Just EXACTLY what's going on... is still a bit of a mystery. I must admit... But I think I've decribed it in a bit more detail here for your benefit, so that you might go into this exercise with a bit more optimism. I don't want to give away all of my propietary theory and calculation data, I hope you understand.

I used 15 feet of 16 gauge zipcord as my speaker wire test for the scope photos. I also have dual trace photos of my test setup with both traces with and without the mod to show the calibration of the test setup. In these photos, the traces are IDENTICAL. You can't find any of these anomilies. So I do believe my scope data to be actual and vaild.

Everyday zipcord was the most common type of wire being used back then. I used it in my home system, and the mod definitely made a nice improvement with my home stereo. It all started when a friend bought some kimber Kable and we noticed its obvious improvement. He was not happy when he heard my $.99 cent mod achieving the same results... Now, I've found it still works in the car as well. It did seem to have more of an effect the longer the speaker run was. I once put 50feet of zipcord on each home speaker, and you couldn't help but be amazed by the improvement

SO, NO HARD FEELINGS! I don't blame you for being skeptical, but hopefully this post will help to patch things up between us and give you more of a valid reason to try it... I think I've presented some ideas and theories that might just make you start wondering...Hmmmmmmm maybe there could just be something to this aferall?????

TAKE CARE! (and remember, I'm an OLD analog engineer... there's plenty of digital design that I have no clue about and would be floundering in theory as well.)

Southbound

 

I don't think it's THAT much of a mystery...

We do a lot of work in C, Ku and X bands. Up in the RF spectrum I've seen cases where a desired frequency is close to a harmonic of a much higher frequency. If there's noise at the higher frequency, it carries through each of it's harmonics, adding a miniscule amount of noise at the desired frequency. We've had to buy filters with a much larger bandwidth just to filter out the harmonic noise.

I can easily see how this effect between high RF and low RF can be translated to work much the same between low RF and the audible spectrum.

In the audio spectrum it's even listed on all the spec sheets (total HARMONIC distortion, right???)

duhhh... I'm starting to get it....

I've been writing procedures for so many years things are starting to get pretty fuzzy...


PS We're starting to work in the 40-50GHz range. You think things go weird at 2 gig....

 

OK OK OK, now that we are on the same page, well that might be hopeful, we are at least in the same friggin book, i need to get the most important question of all answered....

WHERE IN THE DAMN HELL CAN I GET SOME .05uF ceramic disc caps... For gods sake man, radio shack aint got them, digi key aint, Jameco nope, and no other electronic component retailer on the net seems to.... I have exhaseted 25 pages of google and yahoo seach engines, and 4 phone books calling every elctronic compontent retailer in the Northern VA Washington DC MD area.... I guess you guys in Silicone vally have it good with the part stores.. but for gods sake, if i cant get it from Radio Crap, Digi Key, Allied electrical, or Jameco, then i am at a loss....

 

As you can see on page one of this thread, a .047uf cap would be close enough (or a .056uf for that matter)

I just checked Radio Shack Canada's web site.
.047 uf caps, stock number 272-134. $1.29 Canadian for a bag of 50 (that's about three cents US ).

Radio Shack's US site has X7R ceramic discs (.047 and .056uf). Here's the link to that site:

http://www.radioshack.com/category.a...1%5F000&Page=1

If they're out of stock online, they list the stock number, and you can try them at you local store.


If all else fails, try the following link...

http://www.fix.net/~jparker/dans.html#dan's25

.05uf ceramic disc caps: $1.25 for a bag of 50, or 10 for 49 cents. Unfortunatelty shipping is $7.00 US per order. Bummer...

They're located in Missoula Montana.

Good luck!

 

Check out at www.partsexpress.com, item# 020-2082, but you have to order with the minimum of 10 pcs.

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Sask.

I've tuned HIGH POWER UHF television broadcast transmitters up at Mt. Wilson in the L.A. market before. There is so much RF up there that nobody dares to use their car alarm or remote keyless entry. You have to either break into your car afterwards, or have it towed down the mountain before you can gain entry!: The last time I was working up there, the clock in our Tahoe quit working for the four hours we were there!

So I know how much "voodoo" goes on up in high RF. text book theory is one thing, but actual practice can sometimes be quite another. I've dealt with 2, 7, 13Gig microwave hops as well, BUT I'D HATE TO THINK OF THE VOODOO UP AT 50GIGS!

So like you say, when you first look at something, it's easy to make a LOT of false assumptions. I can see where it's very easy to say that we are ONLY concerned with 20hz-20Khz in audio circuits. Well, that's true as far as OUR ears are concerned... but it turns out that there are lots of other considerations that do affect the lower fundamental frequencies that our ears end up hearing. And OUR BRAIN turns out to be one smart spectrum and distortion analyzer! It can detect a lot of anomalies that most people would consider negligible. It turns out that there is NOTHING negligible in life... it's just a matter of whether or not we decide to care about it or deal with it...

So sniper, sorry to hear that you are having such a hard time finding these caps. Glad to hear that we are at least reading from the same book now. Perhaps we'll get to the same chapter and page once you finally find some of these caps. I'm sorry for the rough time I gave you in the beginning about locating them. There are about a half a dozen little electronic/ham radio supply type stores in Orange County. They ALL seem to stock some version of this cap. I went by Radio Shack today and see that they stock .047uF/50volt ceramic disc caps. two per package for less than a buck, I think. Where do you plan on trying the mod out first? If it's on your home stereo, that's probably best. You can take the time to do more critical listening there, and you can make an easy way to connect and disconnect the mod. It's a lot more hassle to do your listening tests inside your car, while crawling in and out of the door frame to connect and disconnect the mod and then reseal things up. ALL THE WHILE, MAKING SURE NOT TO SHORT ANYTHING OUT! and at the same time trying to keep your brain calibrated to the last song... So, do you have a decent home stereo system? By decent all you need is something beyond a boom box type of setup. As long as you have an amp with good speakers connected by a length of more than 10feet of speaker wire, you should try the mod out in your house first. IN THAT CASE, JUST GET THE RADIO SCHLOCK caps to do your testing with. The only reason you need more than a 50volt rating is so that you don't short out the cap and then burn up the 1watt resistor. If the cap shorted, then the resistor would see all of the audio energy and would smoke. Even though the 100ohm would not draw near the current of a 4 or 8 ohm load, it still draws enough to smoke at 1watt. BUT a 50volt cap is sufficient for the STOCK car audio system. and it would be sufficient for any in home TEMPORARY test. Even if you have a 300watt amp at home, you know that its SPL is logarithmic and its amazing how loud just 1watt can actually be. So for the purposes of testing... just don't turn your home system up to clipping. 50volts would be good enough for about 78watts rms into 4ohms or 40watts rms into 8ohms. That's plenty of volume for testing. It's just that you wouldn't want to leave a 50volt cap permanently installed in a system that could put out a signal that is larger than 50volts peak to peak... especially locked up inside your car door panel. BUT at home, try out the 50volt caps just for listening purposes. Then if you find that you are onboard the "termination train", you can search further for higher voltage caps. For the permanent situation, you just want to make sure that you have a cap voltage rating that is higher than your power supply rails in the power amp. And in the case of a bridged amp, you need double that. I have plus and minus 80volt rails in my home stereo amp, so that gives me a potential 160volt peak to peak audio output that the cap could see. Therefore, I have 1kv caps hooked up there now. But I NEVER turn it up that high for typcial listening sessions... ONLY ON NEW YEARS EVE!

If you did REALLY turn things up and the cap happened to short, the only thing that would happen, would be that you would slowly start to smell that burnt resisitor smell. You'd INSTANTLY know what was going on and turn things down, and disconnect the mod. This would be real easy to do in the house. So for now, why don't you just get the .047uF/50volt ceramic disc Radio Scholck caps. They do also have some good metal oxide 100ohm/1watt resistors to use. Try that out, and see if it's worth your time to pursue getting better rated caps??? You'll either be impressed or not... and then you can decide if its worth going to the next State for a supposedly simple cap. Does any of that sound like a logical next step for you at this point? Hopefully you do have a nice stereo system at home that is hooked up to CHEAP speaker wire. That is the ultimate place to test this mod... especially if its zipcord. If the only place you have to test is inside the TLS, well it can be done. I did mine with the STOCK speakers. I didn't want to gut the interior of my two week old car and install an aftermarket amp, etc. Replacement Speakers that I had tried out either sounded way to over emphasized due to the factory EQ or else they wouldn't fit without major mod work, so I tried out my termination mod. I spent an evening in the garage and was convinced that I could hear significant improvements there. I tacked the RC across the back of the stock speakers and was prepared to call my upgrade complete for the time being. Then I stumbled onto the easy to fit POLK DX6 speaker. I immediately just tacked my mod across the back of them before I ever even installed them. The POLKS are a good upgrade but I have ONLY heard them with the mod attached. I've played this game too many times over the years and each time, I still find that I hear the improvment!

ANYBODY ELSE, have the time to try this out yet? Hey zotl, were you able to try it yet? I know that 260hp noticed the difference. It put a :p smile on both his and my faces. I think it'll do the same to yours if you give it a fair chance.

GOOD LUCK and keep in touch... if all else fails, I could probably mail you something...but the problem is getting too involved with others that follow...

SOUTHBOUND

 

I know about the ones at radio crap, and i think parts express too, but they are all 25V or 50 Volt... I wasl holding out for those 1KV caps...


I know, i know, since you guys have about 50,000000 places that sell this ****, you just take it for granted... I aint got crap out here.... Well, if i cant get the 1 KV ones anywhere, will the 50V ones work? or are they going to die quickly....

 

Southbound
YOU ARE THE MAN !!!
To hear is to believe !!!
I installed it in my car last week. The sound is much, much better .

 

Thanks for the report zotl!

That's two for two...

I gotta admit I'm lovin it! There may be some voodoo involved, but... It ain't no sh!t!

Does it have you even more inquisitive now sniper?

I've studied this phenomenon for years, and its validity just keeps getting proven over and over.

I'm sure that 260hp and zotl were a bit skeptical as well. I'm sure they would have told me that it didn't do a damn thing if they went to all the work and couldn't hear any results. I would be trashed all over this board!

GOOD LUCK ON YOUR CAP SEARCH! I gotta admit I'm still amazed that they are that hard to find back there. BELIEVE ME! IT's not like I'm getting them from some HIGH TECH SILCONE VALLEY SOURCE... I'm just going to these local "good ole ham radio type of boy stores" where they are lucky to find what you are asking for. They will have them stocked but not even know what they look like. A ceramic what???? So I'm NOT getting mine from some super-source or anything, which is why I'm so amazed you're having the trouble that you are... I found some .05/500volt Sprague jobs today at another hobby store. They are quite nice caps BUT they are fairly big. They are about the size of a quarter. But Sprague is a real name in caps... Newark electronics, Allied electronics would all have to stock them. But they don't usually really sell to the public or else require a $25.00 minimum purchase. Ask one of these Radio Schlock people if they can refer you to any electronic supply stores in the area. Call a bunch of them and see if they can refer you to any place esle. Usually they are kids who don't know jack, but you might get lucky?

You never did report back as to where you were going to try the mod out first? Do you have a decent home stereo? If you do, like I say, get the RADIO CRAP and try them there... They won't smoke anything but themselves and a 100ohm resisitor and that's ONLY if you REALLY CRANK things. I wouldn't want to leave them as a permanent install, but as a test they will do just fine.

Hey Sask, zotl's report has got to have you salivating as well. I know that you are less skeptical than sniper. Now that both 260hp and zotl have reported improvements... you gotta be jumpin' on board. This IS NOT A FLAME!!! but I just can't resist at the moment... As far as PHDs are concerned... "Those who know, DO! Those who don't know, TEACH!" Just couldn't help but repeat that old saying right about now. NOT that I'm gloating mind you.... Hehehehehehehe What it is!

Southbound

 

i dont know what to say man, i called every electronic componets store in the friggin book, and have .0uf ceramic caps, but nly 50V I would get .047 or .056 uf if i could just get 500 or 1000V from them.. I check allied elec web site, dont think they carry a .05uf in the 1kv version... might be wrong... I suck. God damn maryland and no frigging part stores!!!

 

I'm absolutely going to try it. Some day soon when I get some free time at work I'm gonna go throught the parts system. We stock about 100,000 individual part numbers at any given time, and hopefully we have these in house.

If not, I have a few sources here in Saskatoon that I can try. There are two little mom-and-pop parts stores that carry a lot of really obscure stuff. All else fails, I'll talk to one of our purchasing agents. They REALLY know national and international suppliers, and it shouldn't be a big deal to add one more line item on the purchase order. Might take some time, but they've never failed me yet...

 

I was just witness to the terminator effect yet again today... it still never ceases to amaze me.

BFOR3 and I hooked up for lunch since we are in the same area and he is also installing the POLK DX-6 speakers into his car. He is having an amplifier added for both the door speakers and the subwoofer. However, as of today, he had only gotten the front door speakers replaced with the POLKS and had the new subamp mounted, but still disconnected in the trunk. We discussed how great this board has been to both of us for information and support. We also compared the sound between our two cars.

At this point, the systems are identical. The stock headunit is still feeding the door speakers and the subwoofer is still stock. We have both changed out our front door speakers to the POLK DX6s. We spent 30 minutes doing what we really needed 2 hours to do. We kept jumping back and forth between cars and taking a CD with us. We had ALL of the headunit controls centered and had the gain cranked up to "25 clicks". So our listening situation was as close to identical as one could get. Same car, same amp, same speaker set up... ONE WITH TERMINATOR MOD, ONE WITHOUT...

There was NO QUESTION as to the difference in sound between the two cars. HIS WILL BE BETTER than mine once he gets his two amps installed and connected. But with identical systems, we both couldn't help but agree as to the obvious improvement in my system. We were cranking the AC/DC live CD cut #9 "Dirty Deeds". It has a good bass prescence which is something that he is looking for in his final system. That's why I ended up playing that particular CD. Anyway, with everything setup exactly the same on the headunit, we couldn't help but notice the improved clarity. BFOR3 kept saying that it was like mine could be played louder. There was a particular guitar solo passage where his system without the mod had that "turn it down, it's blaring" sound. Where mine was still clean. We were pushing the stock amp to its limit at a volume of 25 clicks. But mine hadn't folded up yet. Also the snare drum and cymbals were much improved. With the RC mod, the cymbals actually splashed... without it, they sort of hissed. The snare drum was the same way. With the mod, there was some definite "snap" to the drum... without it, the drum was again soft and mushy. We must have gone back and forth between cars 6 times carrying the same CD. The results were reinforced each time

I ended up giving him a set of four caps and four resistors, and I believe that he will install them. He definitely went away convinced as to the improvement. Things will only get better for him once he adds his two amps! What amazed me, was how obvious the change was to me, even though I have experienced it for years. I guess I've never quite had this type of A-B experience before. But it was a TREAT! Now if only I had some REAL amplification.

I was convinced today, more than ever, that it's a REAL DEAL!

Hey BFOR3, NICE RIDE! You've definitely kept your SILVER looking NEW! The lowered look with sways and intake mods only make you deserve a better sounding system. How can Acura expect you to drive around in something that nice and listen to hollow mush??? Don't they know that the faster you drive, the louder you crank the music just to keep in pace with the overall energy created by the experience??? I can't keep my stock suspension below 100mph, It's got to feel really sweet with your added mods!

Sniper, we may have hobby shops with caps out here, BUT I CAN'T FIND ANY GOOD CRABCAKES ANYWHERE!!!



Try looking up NTE electronics. That is the typical brand of components that I see hanging on the shelves in these stores. They do make some relatively small sized 1kv versions. I think they stand for "Nu-Tone Electronics". It seems like I've seen a catalog from them before. Don't know how their order process might work for the public??? Hey zotl, I went back to JoKe Electronics, and found that you did indeed buy their last two packs of .05uF/1KV ceramic caps. They had two packs of .047uF/1KV that I picked up for the heck of it. I also bought the last four caps that they had behind the counter. They had some Sprague .05uF/500Volt jobs that look really solid. They were about the size of a quarter as opposed to the dime-nickel sized NTE brand. I have these same Spragues on my home stereo and have the NTE jobs in the TL-S. I think BFOR3 will soon have his tacked on as well. I talked him through the process.

I'll check out the NTE electronics website after I post this and see if there is anything promising there. They sell to all sorts of these hobby electronics stores. They have the right size and rated caps.... I just don't know if they deal with the public?

Just keeping it real here.... keep the reports coming in...
GOOD LUCK! and BE CAREFUL WITH THE MODS! NO SHORT CIRCUITS!

Southbound

 

Southbound
My girlfriend want the TERMINATOR mod put in her car !!!
We used to drive together to work everyday, but she noticed the difference in the sound right after the day I installed it.
She asked me that if I changed the speaker wiring, or replaced the speakers ???
I told her that I got it from YOU, and she is amazed with the sound.( Richer and fuller)
Right now I cannot find the caps anywhere since Joke Electronics haven't restock them.
Bummer !!!

 

hey southbound, how effective would putting the terminator midway on the wiring be? I'm asking this because well, I dont exactly want to take the door apart to get to the speakers ^^;;

thanks

 

hrrm.. actually .. nevermind, southbound ..
crap .. I can't delete posts ^^;; anyway, I'll see if I can have my crossover network mounted outside so its easily accessible

 

ok ok ok.... I will be trying this soon. I just got my reciever back and i put in a 15 dollar order online today. Got 10 caps and 10 resistors... Thanks Southy for the manufacturer info, there sight gave me distributors, which got me the caps... I got .05uf 1kv so i am happy/... In 2-3 days, i will post my seat of the pants impression and if it is not a good one, i will try to head off to the lab and test it out myself on a scope...

Thanks

 

Southbound... I'm so glad that others also discover the improvement with the terminator. I'm going to buy several sets and start installing them in my other cars.

This tread has become really long, and this all started with Iggy asking about changing door wiring.

 

WOW zotl,
That's one sharp girlfriend you've got there! You must be a lucky man... That comment even blows me away! My wife hasn't even noticed that I changed out the stock speakers and replaced them with the POLKS plus the mod. Some people are definite music lovers and others use it more as background noise. I'M IMPRESSED if your girlfriend could notice this improvement from one day to the next... but then I really shouldn't be surprised. After what I heard during the A-B tests between my car and BFOR3's car, it was quite obvious. Was she aware that you had been working on the system so as to expect to listen for some type of change? OR was this truly one unsolicited BLIND listening observation? Thanks for that story, you just made my day BTW, as of Wednesday, JoKe still had two packs of the NTE .047uF/1kv caps next to where you emptied the .05uF stash. The .047, (actually they lable them as 47,000pF...same thing, just pico instead of micro) should be close enough to work just fine. They also had some smaller 100volt SPRAGUE .05uF caps behind the counter. 100volts would be enough to handle like 300watts rms into 4ohms or 600watts peak into 4ohms... Sprague is a good name brand cap, so they should work just fine for the car unless she has one really giant system. It is best to derate things, though... so I'd use them on amps with half of those power levels. The 1kv just gives you one hell of a lot of headroom. It would take lightening for them to smoke... I'm sure that either of those would be just fine to use... JUST BE SURE TO ASK FOR CERAMIC DISC! If they don't have their 100ohm/1watt resistors restocked yet, the Radio Shack metal oxide ones are really quite nice to use. Hope your girlfriend really thanks you!

miwa,
I tried this mod out years ago on my home stereo system and tried putting the terminators directly across the outputs of the amp as opposed to at the other end of the run at the actual speakers. I found that things didn't improve much by putting them directly across the amp. They needed to be at the END of the line. That's why they are called TERMINATORS! NO PAIN, NO GAIN! Sorry, but you'll have to do the work to get the results. Your question does remind me though of how this truly does work mainly as terminating the speaker wire into its "Characteristic Impedance". It's like how you can loop several video monitors together and terminate them at the END of the run and everything looks fine. If you put a termination in the middle of the line, you can get away with a short extention... but much of a run after that begins to cause ringing ghosts.

sniper,
I hear people talking about posting pix of their cars etc on this board. Is there a way to post pix without having to link them to a website that has had the pix FTP'd to it? I have some COOL A-B polaroid scope photos that I took years ago. I have scanned them and labeled them and converted them to jpeg files... BUT the board doesn't seem to let me attach them as files. I've also tried to paste them, but that doesn't work either. If anybody knows how I can attach or somehow post these pix, some of you might find them very interesting. It would show you the complex waveform areas that are effected. Some parts of the waveform are identical and then if you look close, you can see portions that are definitely tweaked from each other... It's called distortion! Looks a lot like "TIM" effects... With the emphasis on high frequency/high slew rate "Transient" intermod distortion.

260hp,
Thanks for the compliments. Glad I could be of help. You were the FIRST with the "Faith" to trust me on the subject. THANKS FOR THAT CONFIDENCE IN ME! I can't program a computer for jack schitt... and I definitely can't write code... But I DO KNOW analog electronics. It's part of being old, I guess... BUT NOT TOO OLD TO STILL ENJOY LOUD (quality) MUSIC!

I decided to bring up the subject of the mod as a solution to IGGY's question. I had pondered for a while as to whether or not I wanted to open this can of worms here... BUT I have found this mod to provide WAY more improvement than replacing 20GA speaker wire with 16GA wire. It's also a LOT easier and cheaper. It takes some REALLY sophisticated and EXPENSIVE speaker wire to accomplish what this is doing by the inverse approach. MONSTER CABLE zipcord is NOT that sophisticated. It will still benefit from this mod. Which makes me wonder now, just how effective it might also be when put across the inputs of an aftermarket amp that has been fed by a LONG run of zipcord from the front headunit all the way back to the trunk???? I have never tried it in this mode before, because I have only used stock car amps and home stereos. I think it would depend upon how the input of the aftermarket amp was designed, and how it is being fed... If it has a resistor to ground across its input it should provide a better termination to the first amp and speaker wire run than an actual speaker does. But I doubt that the input impedance is anywhere near 100ohms. It's probably up around 10kohms? So since you have two speaker wire runs... One from the head unit to the aftermarket amp, and one from the aftermarket amp to the speakers. There MAY just be an additional benefit by terminating the end of the first speaker run at the input of the aftermarket amp. Your system is only as good as your WEAKEST link! If there is this same "TIM" effect being produced within the first cable run, then the signal would definitely NOT be transparent ALL the way from the head unit to the speaker.
I assume the inputs to the aftermarket amp are being fed by RCA connectors, so you would have to open up the amp and solder the mod across the inputs of the amp on the circuit board somehow. BUT IT JUST MIGHT HELP... There are some different factors at play here, though. If you are feeding the aftermarket amp from a higher impedance lesser current gain line output, the effect could be different. But if you've tapped the low impedance (high current gain) speaker output stage of the headunit to feed the aftermarket amp via zipcord, I would assume that it would be much happier seeing this same .05uF/100ohm impedance. The only way to know for sure, would be to try it... I probably wouldn't bother if you just had a SHORT run between an amp that was mounted up under the front dash, but if you're going all the way back to the trunk... We're probably talking about the same properties and characteristics at play here. Two cascaded systems, that are buffered from each other by the aftermarket electronics. Due to that buffering, each segment of the speaker run, would be individually prone to the same ill effects of an UNTERMINATED cable. If I had a car configured this way, I'd try to see if I could attach the mod across the input of the aftermarket amp... and give it a listen. Again, IT COULDN'T HURT ANYTHING... provided you do the work CAREFULLY and don't short anything out, etc. You could EASILY make up an RCA adapter cable to use to connect the terminator circuit. You could use a simple RCA "Y" at the input of the aftermarket amp, and build the termination network up on another RCA connector and plug it into the "Y" to see if it works or not. It would make for an easy A-B test mode. Just build up an OPEN AIR RCA CONNECTOR with the cap and resistor connected in series across the center pin and ground of the RCA connector. You could then plug it in and out of the "Y" for listening tests. It would be a few inches of lead length involved, but that shouldn't matter much compared to the several feet of zipcord cable run. Then, if it adds additional improvement to the system, you could take apart the amp and solder it across the inside for a permanent install. OR you could simply cut the one end of the "Y" off and strip the leads and tack the cap and resistor across that. Tape and strain relief things up REAL good. There could be a lot of innovative ways to attach the mod if it works in this situation.

I have tried this mod on short shielded interconnects between my preamp and power amp in my home stereo and haven't heard any improvements. Again, in this situation... the impedances and gains are different. The run is much shorter. The run is shielded. The cable has a different "Characteristic Impedance". So don't bother trying it there. OR if you are using shielded line level feeds from your car headunit to your aftermarket amp, it may not be effective. BUT, if you're running zipcord type wiring between the speaker output of the headunit to feed the input of the aftermarket amp... I'd probably go out on a limb and bet that things could be additionally improved in this portion of the chain as well

Just when you thought it was safe to go back and close things up... There just might be another application??? SOMEBODY STOP ME FROM THINKING SO MUCH!!!

Just to clarify other issues, I wouldn't put one across each of the speakers in a component system with a crossover network. So don't revisit that question again... That could totaly screw the overall termination impedance up. So for systems with component CAR speakers... Just put the termination on the input to the crossover where the amplifier feeds connect. The runs from the crossover to the individual speakers are relatively short anyway and not actively buffered from each other. SO JUST USE ONE TERMINATOR AT THIS END OF THE CHAIN IN THIS SITUATION. Not to be confused with the use of a second termination at the midpoint connection between the first headunit output and aftermarket amp input as discussed above.

PHEW!!! another attack of "Clackitis"

sleep, sleep, sleep...what's that???

GOOD LUCK ALL!
Southbound

 

hey southbound, email the pics as attachments over to miwa@raven.unixville.com and I'll serve them from a site of mine. I'm not sure if you'll prefer that since you mentioned that you didn't want them linked to an outside website. I think I can attach files to actually have them ON this site but then we'd be torturing the site's bandwidth so a link to outside usually is better for snook who runs this site. Since I have control over this outside site, hopefully we wont have broken links within 2 days.