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I still have my 06 TSX and drive it 2-3 times a week. Last time I paid more attention to the shifts - really it shifted with the same type and severity of "bump" as my TLX (1-2 and 2-3), and I drove that car for 9 years and never considered it a problem.
Once the recall is applied, I'm really wondering if what we are experiencing is being driven by two things:
1) The shifts at 1-2 and 2-3 are noticeably less smooth than the rest of the gears (which I can't feel at all), and
2) We expected better in a reasonably expensive non-entry-level luxury car
I'm still going to have the dealer look into it on my first visit just in case, but the more I drive it (2500 miles now), the more I think it will be something I just stop noticing after a time. Certainly not something that (by itself) would compel me to make a change. The transmission isn't perfect, but the car is great is so many other ways I suspect in a year I won't even notice.
As I mentioned in my previous post, my V6 Advance had a TCM software update done earlier this month.
As I also mentioned, it took about 250 miles for things to happen, but it is shifting 1-2 and 2-3 well now, and getting better by the day - sometimes 2-3 is as smooth as the balance of the shifts, but the worst is a crisp gentle nudge - certainly not the whiplash I could get before.
I would also add that weather is NOT a factor. We are currently experiencing low 30's in Chicago, and there is NO difference in shift quality vs. 60's and 70's.
It amazes me that some Acura dealers are saying there is no update - Kudo's to my service manager for bugging the tech center until he got it.
I had my car at the dealership yesterday for another issue, and while it was there I had them perform the software update on the transmission for the hard 2nd-3rd shift. I would say that the transmission shifts much smoother now. If you really pay attention you can still notice it a little bit, but you really have to be looking for it. Overall, I would say this update smoothed out the shift pretty well. Below is an image of my receipt and what they did
Took mine in for its inaugural A1 service, and having logged the rough shifts, they checked for an update and voila! Here is what was on the bill:
Checked for updates found A/T update L90350 due
Performed update performed teach in using HDS reset codes set by update
It seemed a wee bit smoother especially 1-2 but we shall see over time. Hope this means that the update is officially out there and that everyone will get it at their first service...but remember you have to get the problem logged with your service department!
Yup, I definitely question the longevity of this unit as well. I had the software update done a few days ago and the shifts seem quite a bit better now. It will be interesting to see how it holds up in the long run. Too bad the ZF 8 speed couldn't fit in this car since it has proven reliability
Yup, I definitely question the longevity of this unit as well. I had the software update done a few days ago and the shifts seem quite a bit better now. It will be interesting to see how it holds up in the long run. Too bad the ZF 8 speed couldn't fit in this car since it has proven reliability
I'm a month into this update, and the shifts are actually getting smoother with time. I've also noticed less vibration from VCM as I believe a lot of the vibration was caused by shifting too early into a higher gear and the VCM kicking in at the same time.
As for overall reliability, ZF typically doesn't produce crap - so we'll all see.
I'm a month into this update, and the shifts are actually getting smoother with time. I've also noticed less vibration from VCM as I believe a lot of the vibration was caused by shifting too early into a higher gear and the VCM kicking in at the same time.
As for overall reliability, ZF typically doesn't produce crap - so we'll all see.
It definitely seems smoother, and downshifts quicker. As far as reliability goes, the new transmission (along with the new AWD unit) were a big part of why I got the extended warranty. :-)
There is a pretty long thread on a Mopar forum discussing the article about the snap ring issue.
I worry that Acura is just a little bit behind where FCA has ended up - an actual hardware issue that needs to be resolved one way or another. Its interesting that the "issues" creeping up on the Acura version were seen in the FCA version a while ago. Almost like the TLX 9 speed is headed for the exact same future.
Have to take the TLX off our short list because of this. If the rumors of Acura developing their own transmission for it are true, that might help but at the same time will bring its own set of issues (still have to wait for long term reliability, etc)
I wish they would just go back to simple 4 or 5 speed automatics.
So let me ask a dumb question - why is the MDX 9-speed (presumably the same transmission) silky smooth?
Ive always wondered if any transmission issue is an interaction between engine (i.e. different powerbands in different size/configurations), software (both ECU and TCU) and weight/size of vehicle.
The 7 speed AT that Infiniti uses in the G37/Q50/M37 has different reactions in all 3 vehicles. Somewhat laggy in the G, more refined in the Q50 (no hardware changes, so just s/w fixed it?) and very few complaints in the M37 (a bigger car)
So let me ask a dumb question - why is the MDX 9-speed (presumably the same transmission) silky smooth?
It might just be that they had a lot more testing and tuning time. Not sure if anyone knows but maybe they let it get a little higher RPM before the shift. It seems to shift better at higher RPM. This may be why the MDX gets slightly lower MPG with the 9 speed. Acura probably didn't want to up the shift points on the TLX or they may impact the MPG and they don't want to have to change that.
There is a pretty long thread on a Mopar forum discussing the article about the snap ring issue.
I worry that Acura is just a little bit behind where FCA has ended up - an actual hardware issue that needs to be resolved one way or another. Its interesting that the "issues" creeping up on the Acura version were seen in the FCA version a while ago. Almost like the TLX 9 speed is headed for the exact same future.
Have to take the TLX off our short list because of this. If the rumors of Acura developing their own transmission for it are true, that might help but at the same time will bring its own set of issues (still have to wait for long term reliability, etc)
I wish they would just go back to simple 4 or 5 speed automatics.
So, just a thought. From what I have read, FCA assembles the ZF themselves, whereas Honda gets it assembled from ZF. That's a red flag right there in my book. Also, each vendor apparently writes their own software for the TCM module. Again, my instinct would be to trust Honda a bit more.
Also, the issues with the 9AT in the TLX were observed as soon as the V6s started being delivered last fall.
Working in the technology field for 30 years, I am not normally an "early adopter", but I got a 2014 MDX and a 2015 TLX. I have had no problems other than a finicky dome lightswitch in the MDX and a rear wheel speed sensor that shorted out in the TLX. The transmission shifting issue was minor enough I could have let it pass, but I am very picky about things, so I got the TCM updated, and if necessary, I will do it again. But EVERY car is complex enough you are going to have problems of some type.
I wasnt aware that FCA is assembling their own...I thought it was the same for everyone using it: ZF builds it, the manufacturer is responsible for specs and testing it in their application and then working with ZF to tweak the software for their specific application
The snap ring issue in the Chrysler products seems to be at least partially because of the speeds things are spinning at, which is a result of some software tweak (although the long thread about the article eludes to a hardware issue as well).
After being the victim of the 2000-2003 Honda/Acura transmission debacle, I tend to stay far away from anything "groundbreaking" that Honda attempts to do in regards to automatic transmissions. Time will tell if the shift quality is just a quirk or a bigger issue, but I dont want to be one of the people that is sitting there holding the buck while Honda attempts to sweep another possibly defective transmission design under the carpet.
How do I make them do the update? When I called the dealer I wasn't sure what to ask but they told me no software updates were available for my car. I have the shift issue and the issue with the vibration from VCM that was mentioned earlier. I would like to try the update to see if it helps. I'm going into the dealer within the next week so I would like to know what to ask for. .
So, just a thought. From what I have read, FCA assembles the ZF themselves, whereas Honda gets it assembled from ZF. That's a red flag right there in my book. Also, each vendor apparently writes their own software for the TCM module. Again, my instinct would be to trust Honda a bit more.
Also, the issues with the 9AT in the TLX were observed as soon as the V6s started being delivered last fall.
Working in the technology field for 30 years, I am not normally an "early adopter", but I got a 2014 MDX and a 2015 TLX. I have had no problems other than a finicky dome lightswitch in the MDX and a rear wheel speed sensor that shorted out in the TLX. The transmission shifting issue was minor enough I could have let it pass, but I am very picky about things, so I got the TCM updated, and if necessary, I will do it again. But EVERY car is complex enough you are going to have problems of some type.
Originally Posted by chris03tl
I wasnt aware that FCA is assembling their own...I thought it was the same for everyone using it: ZF builds it, the manufacturer is responsible for specs and testing it in their application and then working with ZF to tweak the software for their specific application
The snap ring issue in the Chrysler products seems to be at least partially because of the speeds things are spinning at, which is a result of some software tweak (although the long thread about the article eludes to a hardware issue as well).
After being the victim of the 2000-2003 Honda/Acura transmission debacle, I tend to stay far away from anything "groundbreaking" that Honda attempts to do in regards to automatic transmissions. Time will tell if the shift quality is just a quirk or a bigger issue, but I dont want to be one of the people that is sitting there holding the buck while Honda attempts to sweep another possibly defective transmission design under the carpet.
Not to get this thread off track, but I think they license the transmission so I think they are doing a lot more than assembling them. They may even customize them for certain applications. I think that was the case with the Jeep to get it mated up to their AWD system.
Ive always wondered if any transmission issue is an interaction between engine (i.e. different powerbands in different size/configurations), software (both ECU and TCU) and weight/size of vehicle.
The 7 speed AT that Infiniti uses in the G37/Q50/M37 has different reactions in all 3 vehicles. Somewhat laggy in the G, more refined in the Q50 (no hardware changes, so just s/w fixed it?) and very few complaints in the M37 (a bigger car)
+1 . MDX's weight might "buffer"/smooth the gear changes.
How do I make them do the update? When I called the dealer I wasn't sure what to ask but they told me no software updates were available for my car. I have the shift issue and the issue with the vibration from VCM that was mentioned earlier. I would like to try the update to see if it helps. I'm going into the dealer within the next week so I would like to know what to ask for. .
Make sure you have logged these problems with the service folks. Bring the car in and show them what you are talking about, and make sure they note it in the computer system. A couple people (myself included) have provided in this thread (read upwards/backwards to find it) whatever details we have received about the upgrade. Good luck!
By logging the problem, do you mean calling the dealership or actually going in? I was planning to tell them about it when I took it in. Would that work?
By logging the problem, do you mean calling the dealership or actually going in? I was planning to tell them about it when I took it in. Would that work?
Go in.
Insist on going with someone on a test drive so they see/feel what you are seeing and you know they do. The test drive with the service rep was the key for me getting past the "behaves normally" auto-response.
FWIW, in the relatively few miles I've driven since the update, my car is actually shifting worse. LOL.
It seems to me the transmission is now hanging onto first and second gears a little too long, then when the software forces an upshift it is lumpy because it is at too high an rpm to smoothly shift into the higher gear.
I'm going to try giving it a little time to "learn", but if it doesn't smooth out I'll take it back.
I wasnt aware that FCA is assembling their own...I thought it was the same for everyone using it: ZF builds it, the manufacturer is responsible for specs and testing it in their application and then working with ZF to tweak the software for their specific application
FCA and Land Rover I believe have been releasing updates to the software repeatedly since they released vehicles using them. I somewhat hesitated buying a TLX because of the issues Chrysler and I believe, Land Rover, at the time were having. I decided to bite the bullet anyway. I always assumed the delays in the release of the TLX revolved around the transmission, as well, but I have no proof of it, of course. I think ZF licensed the transmission assembly to FCA simply because they were going to need a ton more units than ZF was going to be building at the time.
If they "fix" the two transmission shifts, this car will be an 8-9 on a scale of 10 for me. Right now it's probably a 7-8. Even with the goofy shifts, I enjoy driving it... especially on long road trips. Of course, I hope they don't wreck the mileage with a fix.
As mine "re-learned" the hard shift shortly after the update I notice engine power drops off slightly, just enough to feel it, the instant before the shift and then returns to normal right after the [hard] shift. Sometimes its worse than others, like when turning it seems to be worse.
FCA and Land Rover I believe have been releasing updates to the software repeatedly since they released vehicles using them. I somewhat hesitated buying a TLX because of the issues Chrysler and I believe, Land Rover, at the time were having. I decided to bite the bullet anyway. I always assumed the delays in the release of the TLX revolved around the transmission, as well, but I have no proof of it, of course. I think ZF licensed the transmission assembly to FCA simply because they were going to need a ton more units than ZF was going to be building at the time.
If they "fix" the two transmission shifts, this car will be an 8-9 on a scale of 10 for me. Right now it's probably a 7-8. Even with the goofy shifts, I enjoy driving it... especially on long road trips. Of course, I hope they don't wreck the mileage with a fix.
I did some more research and confirmed the previous poster(s) were correct: FCA is assembling the ZF 9 speed at their own factory. And a little more research turned up an off-the-record conversation where someone in FCA service thought the issue is from debris getting inside the transmission during assembly. Some of them work great and some of them start to self destruct (sound familiar, former Acura 5 speed automatic owners?)
If thats really true, I would honestly not worry too much about the 9AT in the TLX, since Honda is only using units directly from ZF. The whole "tweak the software with ZF's blessing" seems to be the norm for ANYONE using a ZF transmission, so thats to be expected. As long as Honda is letting ZF build it in their own facility (which is presumably a clean room with no debris floating around like FCA), hopefully the transmissions wont grenade themselves.
As far as why it works fine in the MDX I forgot to list one (probably major) reason: gearing. The RPMs in gears is most likely completely different in the MDX vs the TLX.
TOV has documented different (better) behavior in the MDX transmission. It no doubt has different firmware and likely different gear ratios as mentioned above. I just hope they take care of the early adopters of the TLX. With some of the things the car does I almost feel like a beta tester but who's paying full price for doing testing. :P
TOV has documented different (better) behavior in the MDX transmission. It no doubt has different firmware and likely different gear ratios as mentioned above. I just hope they take care of the early adopters of the TLX. With some of the things the car does I almost feel like a beta tester but who's paying full price for doing testing. :P
Go look at the Infiniti Q50 forums.....talk about beta testing!
I'm hoping it's just software; the 9 speed is pretty nice other than the low gear shifts and makes for quiet and efficient cruising on the highway.
Doesnt the final drive ratio affect what RPMs the vehicle will run at for a given speed? If so, even though it has the same gear ratios in the transmission, wont it be shifting and running at different RPMs compared to the TLX?
Or better yet, are the shift points programmed in the s/w different for the MDX than the TLX
Doesnt the final drive ratio affect what RPMs the vehicle will run at for a given speed? If so, even though it has the same gear ratios in the transmission, wont it be shifting and running at different RPMs compared to the TLX?
Or better yet, are the shift points programmed in the s/w different for the MDX than the TLX
Yes, the final drive ratio is another multiplier (though its effect is lessened by the MDX's bigger tires). By my rough calculation, the MDX runs about 11.5% higher RPM than the TLX for the same speed at the same gear.
I haven't driven a 2016 MDX so I'm not sure if the shift points are different; I find the TLX in typical driving likes to shift just after 2000 rpm.
I did some more research and confirmed the previous poster(s) were correct: FCA is assembling the ZF 9 speed at their own factory. And a little more research turned up an off-the-record conversation where someone in FCA service thought the issue is from debris getting inside the transmission during assembly. Some of them work great and some of them start to self destruct (sound familiar, former Acura 5 speed automatic owners?)
If thats really true, I would honestly not worry too much about the 9AT in the TLX, since Honda is only using units directly from ZF. The whole "tweak the software with ZF's blessing" seems to be the norm for ANYONE using a ZF transmission, so thats to be expected. As long as Honda is letting ZF build it in their own facility (which is presumably a clean room with no debris floating around like FCA), hopefully the transmissions wont grenade themselves.
The "debris in the transmission" possible issue was covered by the stop-sale/recall of the TLX back in January, I believe.
Originally Posted by chris03tl
Go look at the Infiniti Q50 forums.....talk about beta testing!
The Q50 and Caddy ATS were both higher on my list of "next cars" than the TLX was, but the Q50's disaster of a release and the ATS' random issues and near-arbitrary mileage shut the door on those 2 models. I thought most of the Q50's issues had been ironed out by now. I still like the looks of both of those cars.
Im a huge Infiniti fan (my dd is a '11 G37) so I was eager to try out the Q50. Had a base AWD loaner for a day and wasnt HUGELY impressed, but it wasnt a bad car.
There are still some electronic bugs floating around it. And it hasnt been proven 100% that the electric steering issues have been resolved (seems that really cold weather is what causes it, and the weather wasnt as "really cold" as it was last winter when the problems showed up). For a $50K car, its a little disheartening. But I do still love the platform....RWD (or RWD biased AWD), etc. The car looks great IMHO. But 2 years into the new model and still having electronic bugs isnt something to just look past.
ATS - like all American cars, once I option it the way I want it, all of a sudden its in the price range of a whole host of different (better) alternatives.
Which is why the TLX is a great deal IMHO....fully loaded for $45K-ish? If the 9AT issues get resolved, it will be one of the best cars on the market right now. Unfortunately, thats a big if, especially given Honda's past history of automatic transmission troubles.
Put mine back in the shop today. Had a ride-around with the tech, deonstrating the hard 2-3 shift.
But since he's already applied the TCM update and the related idle learn process, I don't know that there's much he can do. He did offer to call Techline and see if there's anything they can suggest, so I left it with him.
The V6 TLX Tech loaner I have actually shifts better than mine. It has about 5700 miles on it, and maybe that's part of the secret - let the clutches or torque converter or whatever bed in and smooth out.
The bottom line is that I think I can live with it if I have to. I don't really want to, but I can.
The tech called Techline and discussed my trans issues, and he was instructed to do something called "Hydraulic Systems Relearn", along with idle relearn (again) and something called "CKP".
The tech told me the hydraulic systems relearn was new to him, and I think it might be the magic bullet here. My transmission shifted a lot smoother on the way home from the dealership, so I have my fingers crossed. Time will tell.
For those who are still having issues, try seeing if your service department can do this hydraulic relearn.
I'm a month into this update, and the shifts are actually getting smoother with time. I've also noticed less vibration from VCM as I believe a lot of the vibration was caused by shifting too early into a higher gear and the VCM kicking in at the same time.
As for overall reliability, ZF typically doesn't produce crap - so we'll all see.
I know this doesn't help anyone here, but ZF's products have been lacking as of late. Many of their transmissions start failing around the 60K mark, I went though 2 in my 760 and many others with 745's and 750's have had to dump a lot of money into the ZF transmissions. I'm very weary of their products, esp how they have lifetime transmission fluid, yeah right....
The tech called Techline and discussed my trans issues, and he was instructed to do something called "Hydraulic Systems Relearn", along with idle relearn (again) and something called "CKP".
The tech told me the hydraulic systems relearn was new to him, and I think it might be the magic bullet here. My transmission shifted a lot smoother on the way home from the dealership, so I have my fingers crossed. Time will tell.
For those who are still having issues, try seeing if your service department can do this hydraulic relearn.
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If you're willing and able, please post your the service write up so we can reference any specific codes, terms, etc. Thanks!
04-23-2015, 08:35 PM
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MDX's weight might "buffer"/smooth the gear changes. 
