DanITman

Getting close to pulling the trigger on a new TLX. I live in Michigan where the winters are deep and cold Any thoughts how the TLX will handle in the winter? Trying to decide if the AWD is the model I should go with or just stick to snow tires on the FWD version. Any advice you have is appreciated.

-Dan

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

If you're looking to save some money, you should be just fine with a good set of snow tires and FWD.

d1sturb3d119

iTrader: (1)

Snow tires. Then if you want better acceleration and handling get the awd. Tires make the difference. Without a proper contact patch everything else even awd is absolutely useless.

ATLPatrick

Wish I could give you a better answer but I live where it doesn't snow much. But I would think with some good snow tires a FWD would be fine, V6 better than I4 as it has more weight over the front wheels. That helps traction in snow right? But as others have said handling will be better in the dry on the SH-AWD, and you would be without a doubt fine in the snow. I may just be pushing the AWD for no reason though because I regret not buying one. But I really think FWD would be fine. Best of luck!

Quandry

The first few winters with my 3G TL were on All Season then I switched to winter tires. The difference is amazing. SH-AWD with winter tires is the ultimate and is recommended if your travels take you to hilly areas or on back roads that are not plowed very often. Otherwise FWD with winter tires will do just fine.

I was out researching 17" winter wheels and tires this morning and will be installing then within a couple of weeks. Goodbye OEM 18" set for 5+ months.

d1sturb3d119

iTrader: (1)

Also the concept of more weight = more traction is a farce. If its a rwd car people use sandbags to try to improve traction. Traction is not improved because of weight. Many believe it pushes your tires onto the road however the same effect can be achieved by reducing your tire pressure. Lighten your car and it will handle better. It will dig into the snow less, but still create enough packed snow to generate traction. Tire pressure should be used to vary your contact patch, not weight.

erdoc48

+1 on FWD and snows- I've been using them for years in NJ (some pretty bad winters in the past actually) and the TL always was always controllable and felt reasonably well planted.

DanITman

What sort of cost did you come up with in your research?

Quandry

The great dividing line, Canada-US border, exchange rate, and taxes play a big part in the final cost. Canadian pricing for wheels and tires, after tire rebate, is ~C$2,200 and up to $200 less from online Acurazine sponsor (cost of wheels make a difference). I would expect the US price to be about U$1,300 plus taxes and shipping. All of this includes alloy wheels, TPMS sensors, mounting, balancing, and installation. Could be less with steel rims and cheaper winter tires.

Jmark

A farce! Really !!
Understanding the physics and having driven both types of vehicles for long periods in extreme winter conditions I can tell you it is a FACT that a front wheel drive car will out perform a RWD in snow/icy conditions!!!
More force = better traction, period. Yes you can play around with tire pressure and it may change tire contact area a bit. But the force on the drive wheels will result in the vehicle actually getting traction instead of just spinning the tires.

As for the ops question, the front wheel drive with snow tires is very good. The AWD will be better but not as much FWD vs RWD. The wild card in this statement is PAWS. In theory this should help the FWD TLX in curves as the rear tires will be helping you turn in icy conditions.

My 3G TL is awesome in snow and would be better especially in turns/ curves if it was AWD. I use Nokian All Weather tires, not to be confused with All Season.
All Weather tires are rated as a winter tire in Canada, all seasons are not. Because they use a soft enough rubber, so as to be pliable below -7c ( part of a gov. Spec for winter tires).

I've had a few sets of these tires. The only time I've ever been stuck is when the snow is deep enough and hard enough and I'm going slow enough to high Center the car. On icy snowy highways the car handles like a dream, straight and true with no squirming around when the road is very icy, unlike some tires all season tires I've tried.

Last winter after about a three foot dump of snow I made a 5km trek on a stretch of road that had not been plowed yet. Lots of vehicles where in the ditch (including 4x4 trucks) and once on the road there was no turning back. So I turned off traction control and went for it. Couldn't see a thing out the windshield as the car was plowing snow up over the hood. Kept an eye out for the ditch via side windows and kept my foot into it.
Low and behold I made it to the next highway that was plowed! Now that wasn't just tires as one has to learn how to drive in these conditions, but I have no doubt the Nokians enabled me to safely make the trek.

DanITman

Thanks Quandry. What if I have a huge stack of Canadian Tire money?

Quandry

Good for putting in your shoe that has a hole in it or making some bedding. Otherwise a stack will not be enough. You would need a truckload.

TSXV6Guy

Snow tires are a must for proper traction in low temperatures and in snow... If you add AWD, then it's as good as it can get.

a77

Those Nokians are great tires, but not quite as good as a top rated genuine snow tire, and they wear out fast. But far better than any other all season in the snow. Hankook make an all weather tire too and it is cheap (unlike the Nokians) but apparently it is nowhere near as good. Very often people go for skinnier tires for winter use - usually they work better all else being equal, but in deep snow a wider footprint is better. Depends on conditions. But if snow is that deep, as has been said, there's the high centering problem and you shouldnt be driving anyway when it is like that. FWD and decent winter tires are fine for 99% of conditions. the number of people though who insist on AWD and then refuse to use anything but all seasons is staggering. AWD does not help you stop and is of marginal benefit cornering. Can make it worse as the car weighs more and has more inertia.

d1sturb3d119

iTrader: (1)

You can claim fact give your experience all you want. That does not change physics. If that were truly the case teams racing on ice would load their cars up to increase traction. They however increase traction using downforce, suspension settings, tires, weight distribution and tire pressure. Hell any racing in that case, to increase grip, would involve loading the car. Loading your vehicle negatively affects handling, braking, and acceleration. Loose the weight learn how to drive with a gentle foot and you'll be fine. Even a RWD car will be fine if the driver know's what they're doing. If you want to change weight distribution that's a great idea. However adding weight to a car to "increase traction" is unsafe idiotic and backwards.

Since you have the fact how bout illustrating a test where you have a fwd and rwd vehicle of the exact same weight driving down on a track to show us the time. How about 0-60 and 60-0 times. If you really believe wight is positive for a vehicle you need to learn about physics again. My RWD SC has no spare tire jack and extra weight in the rear. All it has is snow tires a good driver and a gentle foot. The car does just fine in any situation provided I know how to adjust my driving and tire pressure. Simple as that.

After racing a multitude of vehicles both in the summer and in the winter on track the fact is that weight kills performance and handling. Lighten your car, be cognizant of weight distribution and DO NOT add weight!

Tonyware

Given the crappy tires Acura put on the TLX, you'll probably HAVE to replace them with winter tires to make it thru the winter. So the rest of the discussion is, ummm, academic.

Nokians are nice, if you can find them! You can get 245/45R18 Michelin x-ice tomorrow, but with Nokians you'll have to wait 3-4 weeks.

For those of you who have no idea what we are talking about (i.e. never seen snow in their lives)... here is an example of what I would call "average" to "good" conditions -lol

weather

^^ You had to depress me eh?!?! F^@&)*_@+@( winter

Mr Hyde

I am trading in my TSX which was equipped with snow tires for the last 3 winters for an AWD TLX, but the timing of my commute, and even my own driveway are different than most.

Last winter was one of the worst the North East has had in several years, and I leave for work at 6AM which means roads weren't cleared all that well from all of the overnight storms. I work in a hospital, so no snow days, or working from home.

The TSX did well, but even with snows, it did get hung up a few times when one of the front wheels would spin, and it wasn't enough traction to free the rest of the car. Same issue with my steeply sloped driveway unless I got it completely clean and salted.

Not sure where you are in MI, but I have family in Rochester hills, and I've been there in the winters.

If you can swing the AWD, I would highly recommend it unless your commute is a lot less stress inducing whenever it snows

Mr Hyde

Many of those recs sound great, especially in racing, but for passenger sedans, they are pretty unrealistic. It's not like most people drive around with 100lbs of junk in their cars, or on a RWD car can remove weight off the front, alter their weight distribution, alter their suspension, or increase rear down force (pointless at normal speed)

For most RWD owners, especially from back in the day who are/were not hoarders, or aren't willing to remove their rear bench, spare, etc for their daily grind, tossing a couple of bags of sand in the trunk was a quick, easy, and reasonable way to alter the weight distribution. This is even more true for non-4wd pickup trucks which have the absolute worst combination of drive wheels, and weight distribution.

DanITman

I'm on the west side of the state and we face the brutal lake effect snow. Snow can get deep but the municipality does a good job on the main roads. I'm more worried about the highway driving since I put a lot of miles on the car for work. I'm thinking the FWD with snow tires is the best combo.

Mr Hyde

They do an impressive job with the roads there. My issues typically surround just getting to and from the highways. On the highways, FWD with snows should do just fine.

Quandry

Yep, that is typical of an average snow day just north of Toronto, and the traffic was quite light. Now imagine that amount of snow on a 60 mph highway with transport trucks blowing by you at 45-50 mph, and you driving on all season tires. My common scream at many drives "get some winter tires or get the hell off the road and do not drive in these conditions."

tlxsteve

Move to Florida. We may have three days of winter max. Which I guess compares to your summer.

Quandry

But all that sun and UV rays to fade the paint and crack the leather. Then washing the car every second week even when it is still clean. A photo of a truly dirty TLX after driving for a few days in the slush will make you appreciate what you have and why so many of my neighbors spend time there.

Edward'TLS

You will still need snow tires no matter if you buy the FWD or the AWD model, for maximum traction on snow and ice.

d1sturb3d119

iTrader: (1)

What is normal speed? People still drive at 65 on the freeway because they believe their 4wd car is superior in some way. My point is like you mention, 100lbs of junk in their car steals from the handling. Keeping your oem equipment is more than enough to maintain proper weight distribution but altering it by loading a rwd car up in stupidity in its purest form.

All that does is use up and suspension travel you had, and now if someone gets on the gas to aggressively there is no travel left for the suspension to do its job. When there's no travel left the pressure is transferred to the the tires and when the tires are overwhelmed you loose traction quickly and unpredictably. The practice of blindly adding weight is a dangerous one. Especially when you consider where the weight is being added and where the rear axle is. All that does is make your car tail happy in every other scenario.

This BS advice of loading cars needs to die. People get advice like this off multiple forums, load their cars up, upset the handling, and the guise of more traction alter's their driving habit. And then one fateful day they take a turn and the back end kicks out causing a wreck. Seen enough mustangs and camaro's here utilizing the same "logic" claiming they're good to go and losing it on a 25mph corner.

a77

This argument about weight can go round and round in circles, and applies just as much with off roading. The British military typically use skinny tires for muddy conditions, the idea being that greater downforce for the contact area will cut through the loose stuff to grippier stuff underneath. Sometimes this works, but in many conditions it does not. You can only get traction by using wider tires and low pressures. Look at all the off roaders in Iceland - same thing. But its also a fact that you can get stuck on road or off road, and by getting more weight on the driven axle you can gain traction and get going. Of course more weight on the tail is awful for handling once moving. But that is a diffeent thing. Why does a 911 have such awesome off the line acceleration - because most of its weight is over the back wheels. So it stands to reason that putting sandbags in the back of a 2wd pickup truck will improve off the line traction in difficult conditions. Why do we see so many pickups snaking all over the place on windy icy roads. While Ridgelines don't? Because the Ridgeline has more relative weight over its driven axle. Same thing.

d1sturb3d119

iTrader: (1)

You realize that Porsche has spent decades trying to balance their cars out because of the fact that their engine put's the chassis off balance. Decades of R&D to now develop a car that handles like it should. M3's, M5's, TVR's, Caterham's are all RWD cars with great off the line acceleration. Correlation does not equate to causation. Assuming weight gives good traction is one small piece of the puzzle. The fall out from addition weight is huge! If you maintain OEM weight distribution all is well because the car is designed to sit at that height and create a calculated contact patch. To alter that by adding weight is going to cause problems simple as that. All you're doing is giving the car more weight to haul rather than doing the smart thing and increase your contact patch through the adjustment of tire pressure. Not a hard thing to do.

All those cars you see snaking around have a lot of factors leading to them losing traction. All things being equal any vehicle can be fine in the winter as long as the owner doesn't pull stupid shit like loading their car up in the worst possible area. Will it get you up a driveway, maybe. Will it screw up handling, braking and acceleration? Definitely. Need more traction? Allow the suspension to do its work and get a better rubber.

Don1

Dan I have had the 2nd, 3rd and 4th generations of TL FWD and have had no real issues with them in the worst conditions. During this time I lived in the GTA (near Toronto). I always used all-season tires but there is no argument that snows are superior for winter driving.

Mr Hyde

For a rear spoiler to actually apply significant downforce, you'd have to exceed the limit of 55 by a significant amount. That would be a pretty idiotic thing to do if your goal is to assist your rear traction due to poor road conditions.

If conditions are bad enough that you need to think about tossing sand bags in the trunk, you shouldn't be trying to slice, and dice it around corners. These things are meant to limp you through a storm, or a particularly bad day, not every day use.

Just like your recommendation of lower tire pressures, both could put you in a ditch if you are trying to drive as if you are dry asphalt, and the roads are bad.

Anyway to get back on track, regarding the TSX; FWD is better than RWD in those road conditions. It's a combination of the weight distribution, and the fact that the front wheels are pulling you through, and steering, as opposed to RWD in which the tires are just pushing you forward.

weather

...and the most important aspect...a RESPONSIBLE DRIVER!

wgfca

I agree FWD with winter tires is great, but SHAWD with winter tires would give that much more capability in severe winter climate

EddieOnAZ

Keep in mind that awd doesn't do anything for you when you have to brake. Good winter tires is what is gonna prevent you from rear-ending that guy in front of you. I cannot tell you how many WRX drivers we see in the ditch every year because they thought their awd would save their butts!! Haha but of course the awd will help you get out of those snowy driveways and such, and it absolutely adds a little more fun. I miss my impreza sometimes

Mr Hyde

That's what gets so many SUV drivers in trouble. All that mass means longer stopping distances, and skidding off the road when taking a turn too fast. You can't overcome physics, but yet so many think they can just drive like they are invincible.

neuronbob

Winter driving is all about the tires and driving with common sense. I have spent five winters piloting two CTS-Vs in awful Cleveland winters, and about to start the sixth. Winter tires help with stopping distances. With traction control, ABS, and stability control on top of winter tires (Blizzaks freaking rock!), I have never been stuck, and I routinely pass in the snow-filled fast lane with good confidence. I have driven my V during every bad snowstorm we've had in the last few years.

Proof of concept-my V wagon in snow:


FWD with winter tires is probably better, but SH-AWD with winter tires and you have the best of all worlds.

Winter tires should be mandatory in snowy areas, not just for your own safety, but for the safety of all. I think our Canadian friends, or at least our Québécois friends, had the right idea.

Quandry

Yes, that is a typical looking snow covered road and your drive appears to be quite stable. Been there and done that! What is unknown is the tires fitted to the other vehicles in the video. Hopefully they were all winter tires but that may not be the case. The video is less convincing with the latter as there was no tail wagging or vehicles in the ditch, which is a common sight.

kws6000

Hands down, awd with proper ice/snow radials..... if road cleaning isnt the greatest where you drive,,,,,If road cleaning is prompt where you drive, fwd +snow tires should be fine

Ive done rwd + proper tires +weight in the trunk (which did help), fwd +proper tires, and now have awd +proper tires....

...And will never go back to rwd ,or fwd for my winter daily driver.....

No problems accelerating from icy intersections, getting stuck going up snowy driveways, or having to take runs through icy/slushy/ wet snow parking lots to avoid getting stuck....Like I did with fwd +fresh blizzaks....


I used to feel that fwd+fresh blizzaks were great.....until I got awd...


It's all in your frame of reference....

kws6000

Wrong, wrong , wrong !..

More weight over the driving wheels improves straight line traction big time.....Which is why fwd vehicles ,with their inherent weight bias over the driving wheels , are significantly better in accelerating on low traction surfaces, versus rwd....Assuming equal tires....


Putting 100 lbs of sandbags spread evenly in the trunk isnt going to turn your rwd car into a menace just waiting to spin tail first off the road......My experience has been that this sort of weight in the trunk has been a noticeable help in getting moving in the winter..in my rwd cars.

EddieOnAZ

I agree that added weight in the back would help a rwd get moving. Wouldn't that added weight straight up murder you while turning though? I guess it wouldn't be too much of a problem on twisty roads since you won't give gas while turning on icy/snowy roads but on highway turns wouldn't the added weight in the back be bad? Losing traction while going 70 is one of the scariest thing ever.

Tonyware

Based on past experiences of FWD Accord and 3GTL, FWD with winter tires feels more stable. However, if (knock on wood) the time comes to correct a serious error, you'll see how the SHAWD can get you out of trouble. For example, in the video you posted, had you "touched" the snow bank on the left, the FWD wouldn't be able to help you correct the mistake.

As far as Quebecers driving on winter tires... its not helping at all because they drive like idiots anyways (present company excluded). Other snowy areas in Canada to be careful driving because of idiot drivers is Markham and Brampton, (Toronto suburbs) and I am not even going to explain why.