TLX vs es350 with UL package - pls help
03-11-2015, 12:15 PM
#41
I, too, used to have the perception that Honda was a real engineering company, but that was back in the 90's. They came out with CVCC in their 70's Civics, offered double wishbone suspensions in their cars in the 80's, VTEC in the 90's (in the US), and SH-AWD in the 2000's. However, they've really stagnated in the current decade - their cars have gone back to struts, they've lost their low-cowl interior dashboards due to current safely standards, and VTEC offers only two discrete camshaft profiles. By now, everyone offers some sort of continuous variable valve timing (ok, but maybe not everyone offers variable lift). Everyone also offers some sort of AWD (not SH-AWD); the problem is that SH-AWD is a twist that only real fans of hardware (such as myself) will appreciate, and most entry-level RWD cars handle just as well without SH-AWD.
Toyota, on the other hand, almost single-handedly brought the hybrid drivetrain from science-fiction to the mass-market. They've combined their reputation of solid reliability with technology on a pay-as-you basis, with your bare-bones Toyotas offering solid no-frill engineering, while more expensive Lexus models offering much higher levels of technology while still maintaining the corporate culture of quality. Meanwhile, Honda and Acura are stuck churning one Accord variant after another (with the vanilla Accord being the standard bearer), slapping on a different nameplate like the GM of the past, and struggling with high-profile blunders (2000's V6 auto transmissions, 3G TL dashboard cracking, documented high rate Civic Hybrid battery failures resulting a class-action lawsuits), and completely falling off the hybrid/electric car bandwagon with their failed IMA hybrid approach.
I'm glad to see that Honda still has fans today, but I sincerely don't think I can recommend a Honda over a Toyota for a person who just wants rock-solid and refined transportation, but have zero appetite for trouble and hassle.
Honda over Subaru and Mazda, yes, but not Toyota.
Toyota, on the other hand, almost single-handedly brought the hybrid drivetrain from science-fiction to the mass-market. They've combined their reputation of solid reliability with technology on a pay-as-you basis, with your bare-bones Toyotas offering solid no-frill engineering, while more expensive Lexus models offering much higher levels of technology while still maintaining the corporate culture of quality. Meanwhile, Honda and Acura are stuck churning one Accord variant after another (with the vanilla Accord being the standard bearer), slapping on a different nameplate like the GM of the past, and struggling with high-profile blunders (2000's V6 auto transmissions, 3G TL dashboard cracking, documented high rate Civic Hybrid battery failures resulting a class-action lawsuits), and completely falling off the hybrid/electric car bandwagon with their failed IMA hybrid approach.
I'm glad to see that Honda still has fans today, but I sincerely don't think I can recommend a Honda over a Toyota for a person who just wants rock-solid and refined transportation, but have zero appetite for trouble and hassle.
Honda over Subaru and Mazda, yes, but not Toyota.
03-11-2015, 01:37 PM
#42
Senior Moderator
These cars drive very differently. If you can't make up your mind after driving each, and seeing which one fits you better, I would just take the best deal you can get.
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Comfy (03-18-2015)
03-11-2015, 02:18 PM
#43
Moderator
03-11-2015, 03:12 PM
#45
Senior Moderator
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^ Agree but TL's have been compared to the ES for a long time now...not just the TLX.
03-11-2015, 04:54 PM
#46
Instructor
Having a rock-solid drivetrain such as Toyota/Lexus's 3.5L and 6-speed auto is also called engineering. Having a reliable machine that's designed in a way that gives less hassle and break-downs is all due to engineering.
Knowing Honda/Acura's reputation, the OP should wait on the TLX and see how it plays out. I have always bought the first model year of Honda and always big issues. Last one being the 2001 CL-S and the 3rd gear casing in the transmission turned out "engineered" in a way that no one was happy with.
Knowing Honda/Acura's reputation, the OP should wait on the TLX and see how it plays out. I have always bought the first model year of Honda and always big issues. Last one being the 2001 CL-S and the 3rd gear casing in the transmission turned out "engineered" in a way that no one was happy with.
03-11-2015, 05:11 PM
#47
That's the beauty of being on an Acura forum. If they do nothing and use 'tried and true' technology, you can scream and moan that 'they're falling behind' and that they've lost their mojo. If they introduce something new, you can whine that 1st year gremlins are commonplace and cite the 5AT from 15 years ago as proof.
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03-11-2015, 05:29 PM
#48
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Having a rock-solid drivetrain such as Toyota/Lexus's 3.5L and 6-speed auto is also called engineering. Having a reliable machine that's designed in a way that gives less hassle and break-downs is all due to engineering.
Knowing Honda/Acura's reputation, the OP should wait on the TLX and see how it plays out. I have always bought the first model year of Honda and always big issues. Last one being the 2001 CL-S and the 3rd gear casing in the transmission turned out "engineered" in a way that no one was happy with.
Knowing Honda/Acura's reputation, the OP should wait on the TLX and see how it plays out. I have always bought the first model year of Honda and always big issues. Last one being the 2001 CL-S and the 3rd gear casing in the transmission turned out "engineered" in a way that no one was happy with.
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TaxiDriver (03-12-2015)
03-11-2015, 07:18 PM
#49
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There's a new N platform however, and currently it's been used by the new GS and IS. I suspect the next gen LS will ride on this new N platform too.
I, too, used to have the perception that Honda was a real engineering company, but that was back in the 90's. They came out with CVCC in their 70's Civics, offered double wishbone suspensions in their cars in the 80's, VTEC in the 90's (in the US), and SH-AWD in the 2000's. However, they've really stagnated in the current decade - their cars have gone back to struts, they've lost their low-cowl interior dashboards due to current safely standards, and VTEC offers only two discrete camshaft profiles. By now, everyone offers some sort of continuous variable valve timing (ok, but maybe not everyone offers variable lift). Everyone also offers some sort of AWD (not SH-AWD); the problem is that SH-AWD is a twist that only real fans of hardware (such as myself) will appreciate, and most entry-level RWD cars handle just as well without SH-AWD.
Toyota, on the other hand, almost single-handedly brought the hybrid drivetrain from science-fiction to the mass-market. They've combined their reputation of solid reliability with technology on a pay-as-you basis, with your bare-bones Toyotas offering solid no-frill engineering, while more expensive Lexus models offering much higher levels of technology while still maintaining the corporate culture of quality. Meanwhile, Honda and Acura are stuck churning one Accord variant after another (with the vanilla Accord being the standard bearer), slapping on a different nameplate like the GM of the past, and struggling with high-profile blunders (2000's V6 auto transmissions, 3G TL dashboard cracking, documented high rate Civic Hybrid battery failures resulting a class-action lawsuits), and completely falling off the hybrid/electric car bandwagon with their failed IMA hybrid approach.
I'm glad to see that Honda still has fans today, but I sincerely don't think I can recommend a Honda over a Toyota for a person who just wants rock-solid and refined transportation, but have zero appetite for trouble and hassle.
Honda over Subaru and Mazda, yes, but not Toyota.
Toyota, on the other hand, almost single-handedly brought the hybrid drivetrain from science-fiction to the mass-market. They've combined their reputation of solid reliability with technology on a pay-as-you basis, with your bare-bones Toyotas offering solid no-frill engineering, while more expensive Lexus models offering much higher levels of technology while still maintaining the corporate culture of quality. Meanwhile, Honda and Acura are stuck churning one Accord variant after another (with the vanilla Accord being the standard bearer), slapping on a different nameplate like the GM of the past, and struggling with high-profile blunders (2000's V6 auto transmissions, 3G TL dashboard cracking, documented high rate Civic Hybrid battery failures resulting a class-action lawsuits), and completely falling off the hybrid/electric car bandwagon with their failed IMA hybrid approach.
I'm glad to see that Honda still has fans today, but I sincerely don't think I can recommend a Honda over a Toyota for a person who just wants rock-solid and refined transportation, but have zero appetite for trouble and hassle.
Honda over Subaru and Mazda, yes, but not Toyota.
While not everyone appreciates SH-AWD, it's still a innovation, don't you think so?
Honda has had some bad moments, but Toyota also has a fair amount of recalls. Just last year they had to recall 6.39mil cars in one single day. And in 2012, the had to recall 7.43mil Yaris. A few months ago, Toyota recalled another 1.75 mil cars. Toyota was also fined $1.2 billion last year related to the unintended acceleration chaos.
Toyota took the right approach with hybrids. Honda took the wrong route. However, Honda already engineered something even better, as shown in the Accord Hybrid. It might be late, but that's not the point. The point is, that's engineering.
How about DCT with torque converter? That's a new innovation.
And what about Sport Hybrid SH-AWD? I think that's a first in the industry too.
The new hybrid systems, the new DCT with torque converter, and the Sport Hybrid AWD system are all recent engineering developments from Honda.
And then there's the new Civic Type R that lapped the Nurburgring in 7:50, which is the fastest time achieved by a production front wheel drive car. It's even faster than the new BMW M4. Is that not engineering?
That's the beauty of being on an Acura forum. If they do nothing and use 'tried and true' technology, you can scream and moan that 'they're falling behind' and that they've lost their mojo. If they introduce something new, you can whine that 1st year gremlins are commonplace and cite the 5AT from 15 years ago as proof.
03-11-2015, 08:07 PM
#50
Suzuka Master
That's the beauty of being on an Acura forum. If they do nothing and use 'tried and true' technology, you can scream and moan that 'they're falling behind' and that they've lost their mojo. If they introduce something new, you can whine that 1st year gremlins are commonplace and cite the 5AT from 15 years ago as proof.
03-11-2015, 10:20 PM
#51
This is a refinement of an existing design, not a breakthrough innovation in itself. Besides, since everyone has some sort of variable valve tuning nowadays, it's no longer a selling point.
Regarding SH-AWD, absolutely. Actually, this feature almost single-handedly (along with the styling of the 4G TL, naysayers be damned) brought me back into the Honda family after 16 years away.
Recalls are a push between the manufacturers. After the unproven Prius sudden acceleration episode, manufacturers are learning to be safe rather than sorry. Since all manufacturers now have massive recalls, I see recalls on par with measures akin to JD Power Initial Quality than any true measure of corporate quality.
Honda's in no position to claim any aspect of its hybrid is "better" until reliability proves out. The link below of horrendous Honda hybrid battery life is in addition to the fact that IMA was non-competitive mileage-wise.
Honda Civic Hybrid Battery Reliability Problems - Consumer Reports News
I myself owned a 2011 Prius, and I have nothing but respect for the tiny little hybrid powerplant. In fact, I have way more intellectual respect for the Prius engine than I do my 305hp 3.7L V6 in the TL. Toyota reliability and techno-savvy has gelled into a grade-slam for the brand, and seeing the number of hybrids on the road proves it. The Prius just happens to be an ultra fuel-economy optimized application.
Good start, but didn't GM have plenty of "innovative" ideas that completely bombed after a few years on the market? Innovation without the track record of quality and reliability is not going to win over the hearts and minds of consumers who end up being the guinea pigs. Just ask the TLX owners with the DCT 8AT.
The Civic, hmmmm, an ultra rice-mobile. This is one image that I'm glad Honda lost after the 1990's. Ricing out a car does not equate to innovation on a corporate level. I'm talking about real production cars here, not blue-sky R&D one-off type projects.
Honda has had some bad moments, but Toyota also has a fair amount of recalls. Just last year they had to recall 6.39mil cars in one single day. And in 2012, the had to recall 7.43mil Yaris. A few months ago, Toyota recalled another 1.75 mil cars. Toyota was also fined $1.2 billion last year related to the unintended acceleration chaos.
Honda Civic Hybrid Battery Reliability Problems - Consumer Reports News
I myself owned a 2011 Prius, and I have nothing but respect for the tiny little hybrid powerplant. In fact, I have way more intellectual respect for the Prius engine than I do my 305hp 3.7L V6 in the TL. Toyota reliability and techno-savvy has gelled into a grade-slam for the brand, and seeing the number of hybrids on the road proves it. The Prius just happens to be an ultra fuel-economy optimized application.
How about DCT with torque converter? That's a new innovation.
And what about Sport Hybrid SH-AWD? I think that's a first in the industry too.
The new hybrid systems, the new DCT with torque converter, and the Sport Hybrid AWD system are all recent engineering developments from Honda.
And what about Sport Hybrid SH-AWD? I think that's a first in the industry too.
The new hybrid systems, the new DCT with torque converter, and the Sport Hybrid AWD system are all recent engineering developments from Honda.
The Civic, hmmmm, an ultra rice-mobile. This is one image that I'm glad Honda lost after the 1990's. Ricing out a car does not equate to innovation on a corporate level. I'm talking about real production cars here, not blue-sky R&D one-off type projects.
03-12-2015, 07:16 PM
#52
Instructor
Why does Honda still have this problem? Their 6-speed auto tranny should be rock solid by now -it is used in MEDIUM-DUTY vehicles that they know is used to carry more people, cargo and weight such as the Odyssey, Pilot and Ridgeline. That is not called superb engineering.
Who knows what the TLX and ILX transmissions have in store for us?
03-12-2015, 08:13 PM
#53
I would take lexus just for the smooth ride and comfort for the long commute. Acura has a few issues right now from 2014 up with all their new models causing them to drop in the latest consumer reports.
03-12-2015, 10:14 PM
#54
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To some degree you have a point here however one could make the point that the reason why Toyotas are so rock solid isn't due at all to engineering - it's due to the fact that they have a very solid and time tested powertrain (3.5L V6 with 6 Sp auto) that they continue to trot out year after year in many different models. The $45,000 R2015 350 has the same basic powertrain as your 2015 BOLD Camry. That's not a bad thing mind you - it's very safe and offers customers piece of mind - but it's not based on engineering excellence - it's based on trotting out time tested old technology over and over.
03-13-2015, 11:05 AM
#55
The 4G TL was sportier... a bit raw and a bit edgy and TLX became more quiet and refined which is what Lexus does best.
03-13-2015, 12:26 PM
#56
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This is a refinement of an existing design, not a breakthrough innovation in itself. Besides, since everyone has some sort of variable valve tuning nowadays, it's no longer a selling point.
Regarding SH-AWD, absolutely. Actually, this feature almost single-handedly (along with the styling of the 4G TL, naysayers be damned) brought me back into the Honda family after 16 years away.
Recalls are a push between the manufacturers. After the unproven Prius sudden acceleration episode, manufacturers are learning to be safe rather than sorry. Since all manufacturers now have massive recalls, I see recalls on par with measures akin to JD Power Initial Quality than any true measure of corporate quality.
Honda's in no position to claim any aspect of its hybrid is "better" until reliability proves out. The link below of horrendous Honda hybrid battery life is in addition to the fact that IMA was non-competitive mileage-wise.
Honda Civic Hybrid Battery Reliability Problems - Consumer Reports News
I myself owned a 2011 Prius, and I have nothing but respect for the tiny little hybrid powerplant. In fact, I have way more intellectual respect for the Prius engine than I do my 305hp 3.7L V6 in the TL. Toyota reliability and techno-savvy has gelled into a grade-slam for the brand, and seeing the number of hybrids on the road proves it. The Prius just happens to be an ultra fuel-economy optimized application.
Good start, but didn't GM have plenty of "innovative" ideas that completely bombed after a few years on the market? Innovation without the track record of quality and reliability is not going to win over the hearts and minds of consumers who end up being the guinea pigs. Just ask the TLX owners with the DCT 8AT.
The Civic, hmmmm, an ultra rice-mobile. This is one image that I'm glad Honda lost after the 1990's. Ricing out a car does not equate to innovation on a corporate level. I'm talking about real production cars here, not blue-sky R&D one-off type projects.
Regarding SH-AWD, absolutely. Actually, this feature almost single-handedly (along with the styling of the 4G TL, naysayers be damned) brought me back into the Honda family after 16 years away.
Recalls are a push between the manufacturers. After the unproven Prius sudden acceleration episode, manufacturers are learning to be safe rather than sorry. Since all manufacturers now have massive recalls, I see recalls on par with measures akin to JD Power Initial Quality than any true measure of corporate quality.
Honda's in no position to claim any aspect of its hybrid is "better" until reliability proves out. The link below of horrendous Honda hybrid battery life is in addition to the fact that IMA was non-competitive mileage-wise.
Honda Civic Hybrid Battery Reliability Problems - Consumer Reports News
I myself owned a 2011 Prius, and I have nothing but respect for the tiny little hybrid powerplant. In fact, I have way more intellectual respect for the Prius engine than I do my 305hp 3.7L V6 in the TL. Toyota reliability and techno-savvy has gelled into a grade-slam for the brand, and seeing the number of hybrids on the road proves it. The Prius just happens to be an ultra fuel-economy optimized application.
Good start, but didn't GM have plenty of "innovative" ideas that completely bombed after a few years on the market? Innovation without the track record of quality and reliability is not going to win over the hearts and minds of consumers who end up being the guinea pigs. Just ask the TLX owners with the DCT 8AT.
The Civic, hmmmm, an ultra rice-mobile. This is one image that I'm glad Honda lost after the 1990's. Ricing out a car does not equate to innovation on a corporate level. I'm talking about real production cars here, not blue-sky R&D one-off type projects.
- i-VTEC is a evolution of a current design, not a totally revolutionary innovation, that's fine. But it's proven to work really well and very reliable, correct? So would you want totally new innovation or reliability?
- Yes I agree, each auto maker has their own recall issues these days
- The IMA system is old. It didn't work in the market. That's been said already. I'm talking about the new hybrid systems that Honda is coming out. Like I said, it's a new tech, of course there's no reliability data to talk about. But I'm only saying that this is an innovation. And so far it delivers in the real world in terms of performance and efficiency.
- I don't think there's much issue with the 8-DCT. It's the 9AT that seems to have more complaints. And of course, first year models are prone to be less reliable. That's the same for pretty much all companies.
-Whether the CTR is a rice-mobile or not, that wasn't the point. The point is that Honda is making something that is proven on the track. Besides, ricing out a car means chopping off the springs and putting a big fart can on the back along with some badly designed aero kit. The CTR on the other hand has functional aerodynamics features, an engine with 300hp/300lbft of torque, and has achieved a very respectable Nurburgring lap time. You might not like its exterior styling, but you can't just write off the engineering that went into the car.
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Stew4HD (03-13-2015)
03-13-2015, 03:23 PM
#57
First off I will strongly disagree with any notion that Toyota/Lexus are better engineered than Honda/Acura. They are very reliable, very good vehicles but are MAYBE on the same level, but most likely slightly below imho. Obviosuly they excel at hybrids but that's not what we're talking about here. Take a Honda and Toyota with the same size engine, same hp and the Honda will be both faster and get higher mpg (noticed this when I bought a new Accord in 05 and compared it to a comprable Camry). Honda is the #1 engine manufacturer in the world and have long been considered super reliable.
Back to the subject, I would advise the OP to ask himself why he is on this forum. If he simply wants to validate his purchase with people who may be "in the know" then check out both cars. If however he is a car enthusiast like most of us, go for the TLX for sure.
As others have said the Lexus will float down the road in comfort whereas the Acura is clearly more of a drivers car, and will provide better feedback and a far more fun experience.
Back to the subject, I would advise the OP to ask himself why he is on this forum. If he simply wants to validate his purchase with people who may be "in the know" then check out both cars. If however he is a car enthusiast like most of us, go for the TLX for sure.
As others have said the Lexus will float down the road in comfort whereas the Acura is clearly more of a drivers car, and will provide better feedback and a far more fun experience.
03-13-2015, 05:44 PM
#58
^^ I would agree with you about the Honda engine and their fuel efficiencies and refinement....No question Honda is a force to rekon with when it comes to their engines.
Until recently, I would have agreed that the Lexus is a floaty car while Acura is a driver's car but I must say that part of teh reason I am now strongly considering the IS is because of its amazing driving dynamics and how connected I felt to the road. I am not saying Acura products, I am just saying that some of the recent Lexus are making strides, especially the F sport series.
Until recently, I would have agreed that the Lexus is a floaty car while Acura is a driver's car but I must say that part of teh reason I am now strongly considering the IS is because of its amazing driving dynamics and how connected I felt to the road. I am not saying Acura products, I am just saying that some of the recent Lexus are making strides, especially the F sport series.
03-13-2015, 11:42 PM
#59
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At the end of the day, both Honda and Toyota and their luxury devisions produce excellent vehicles, with different strengths, the odd weakness, and much in common. Both engender brand loyalty….so for me when I look at Acura vs Lexus, I look at the value proposition (cost and features, including the the cost of operation), performance and handling, ride quality, dealership experience and support, and of course looks (insert sexist joke here
. Same comparison I would make to an Infiniti or a German car. All excellent cars, but cost benefit is always in Acura's favour. The customer loyalty discount certainly helps!
. Same comparison I would make to an Infiniti or a German car. All excellent cars, but cost benefit is always in Acura's favour. The customer loyalty discount certainly helps!
03-14-2015, 09:19 PM
#60
). Clearly if space is a priority, then ES would be my choice, otherwise the TLX by default.
03-18-2015, 06:03 PM
#62
Back to the subject, I would advise the OP to ask himself why he is on this forum. If he simply wants to validate his purchase with people who may be "in the know" then check out both cars. If however he is a car enthusiast like most of us, go for the TLX for sure.
As others have said the Lexus will float down the road in comfort whereas the Acura is clearly more of a drivers car, and will provide better feedback and a far more fun experience.
As others have said the Lexus will float down the road in comfort whereas the Acura is clearly more of a drivers car, and will provide better feedback and a far more fun experience.
.
03-18-2015, 06:37 PM
#63
Lexus ES definitely targeted for the older crown. The current gen is better looking than the previous though. Lexus should run forever but kinda boring. I had a 2nd gen GS 300 for ten years and loved that car. I would consider a used GS over a new ES purely for better driving dynamics. Only thing I don't like about the GS is the gas mileage. Acura probably rates better for crash test safety as well. Notice Toyota did not want the IIHS to put the ES or GS through the small overlap test until the both get "structural improvements."
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