Test drive some cars today...and a TLX V6...
08-26-2014, 02:44 PM
#161
I read the article and did post about the incentives, etc. Still shocking to me as I liked all 3 of my Acura's. For some reason Lexus manages to maintain a high level of satisfaction but it will be interesting to see if the 2014 IS is perceived that way. Not that its a bad car but it's different from what Lexus normally does.
These satisfaction surveys are tricky. Depending on how you phrase the questions, you get very different results. And sometimes, customers rate their satisfaction or dissatisfaction on criteria outside the control of the company in question. I know this first-hand. For instance, Android makes the phone crash or there's a problem downloading from Google Play Store but some users would complain that it's our app just because they happen to be using or downloading our app when the problem occurred. This alone contributes greatly to the margin of error of the survey. And as I mentionned, 2-3 points difference is very likely within the survey method's margin of error and therefore negligible.
What this survey tells me is that it has a lot to do with expectations (lux brands have on average a lower score than non-lux!) and that MB is really ahead of the pack.
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08-26-2014, 02:57 PM
#162
AZ Community Team
Tracking has nothing to do with it...you can have killer track cars with a McPherson struts.....road sedans are different, their suspension travel is bigger, luxury sport sedan need to remain comfortable and at the same time very competent.....larger travel suspension is what forces you to compromise with a strut design or you need to come up with some very clever design like the BMW dual pivot.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 08-26-2014 at 03:05 PM.
08-26-2014, 03:04 PM
#163
That is incorrect, the 911 RS3 and most of the Euro Touring car series use front double wishbone suspensions (DWB). The manufacturers apply for exemptions if their production cars do not have it. DWB allow far better tire contact patch control with geometry due to better camber and scrub angles. It also allows better lateral structural torquing to reduce chassis twisting and distortion while cornering. Majority of high performance cars use DWB for best tire contact management control, despite minimal suspension travel. Until a decade ago BMW used MacPherson struts on all their cars, with proper design MacPherson struts can deliver a very comfortable ride.
I mentioned the 911 because the defenders of the struts always bring that up.....I say that the 911 is basically the exception amount the high end sports car in using the strut design.
I did not know the RS3 used a DW setup.
08-26-2014, 03:13 PM
#164
Ken, I forgot to mention that even the C Class with he new 2015 model switched from a McPherson front strut setup to a 4 link solution.
08-26-2014, 03:15 PM
#165
AZ Community Team
Here you go, thank you, you reinforce exactly what I said before....your can tune a McPherson strut to reach a good balance but a double wishbone suspension is clearly superior for the reason you clearly stated.
I mentioned the 911 because the defenders of the struts always bring that up.....I say that the 911 is basically the exception amount the high end sports car in using the strut design.
I did not know the RS3 used a DW setup.
I mentioned the 911 because the defenders of the struts always bring that up.....I say that the 911 is basically the exception amount the high end sports car in using the strut design.
I did not know the RS3 used a DW setup.
What you don't understand is that the vehicle is a system of components. Just because a cars has struts or DWB does not make it superior. It's the design and integration of the chassis , suspension, and other components that sum up the final product. How that vehicle performs is what's really important. Yet reviews for the 9G Accord say the new Accords handle and ride better than their previous models with DWB.
That's the same reason the 911/Cayman/Boxster work so well in handling they were engineered so well. It's more than just the type of suspension sometimes, it's very important how all aspects were designed. It's more important how the vehicle works in it's intended environment. That's what you don't get. In addition when you give BMW a excuse for using struts but Acura you fault, you are showing negative bias.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 08-26-2014 at 03:20 PM.
08-26-2014, 03:37 PM
#166
Yet you don't get it as well, BMW used the cheaper struts for decades only until the 2000's. Honda/Acura's used DWB and struts on cars costing far less. Yet both prove the point you can have great performance with either, it's more than just the type of suspension.
What you don't understand is that the vehicle is a system of components. Just because a cars has struts or DWB does not make it superior. It's the design and integration of the chassis , suspension, and other components that sum up the final product. How that vehicle performs is what's really important. Yet reviews for the 9G Accord say the new Accords handle and ride better than their previous models with DWB.
That's the same reason the 911/Cayman/Boxster work so well in handling they were engineered so well. It's more than just the type of suspension sometimes, it's very important how all aspects were designed. It's more important how the vehicle works in it's intended environment. That's what you don't get. In addition when you give BMW a excuse for using struts but Acura you fault, you are showing negative bias.
What you don't understand is that the vehicle is a system of components. Just because a cars has struts or DWB does not make it superior. It's the design and integration of the chassis , suspension, and other components that sum up the final product. How that vehicle performs is what's really important. Yet reviews for the 9G Accord say the new Accords handle and ride better than their previous models with DWB.
That's the same reason the 911/Cayman/Boxster work so well in handling they were engineered so well. It's more than just the type of suspension sometimes, it's very important how all aspects were designed. It's more important how the vehicle works in it's intended environment. That's what you don't get. In addition when you give BMW a excuse for using struts but Acura you fault, you are showing negative bias.
...and you do not get what I'm trying to say...first of all the BMW dual pivot setup is quite a bit different than a regular strut so I would not lump it together tout court.
Thank you Mr. Obvious for telling me that the suspension setup is not the only important thing in a car and that the entire vehicle must be engineered very well.....I had no idea..
As a standalone component a DW setup is superior to a simple strut for the reason you already explained and I do not need to rehash and it is no debatable.....yes just a DW setup is not going to make Yugo a sublime handling sport car.
When suspension travel is more limited, a strut setup can be at less disadvantage.
It is perfectly possible that the Accord DW setup was not optimal because of cost/engineering constraints, or other components contributed to improve handling and ride reality is I do not know....you and I do not know if the switch from DW to struts alone contributed to the improved handling.
All I know is that luxury sedans currently use almost exclusively use DW setup up front or 4 links setup or substantial tricked up strut in the case of BMW for the 3 Series (again, there are rumors they may move to a DW setup for the F30 successor)
The C Class has just moved to a 4 links design.
I do not know how the ATS front struts is designed.
For the interested ones, this is an explanation now how the BMW Double Pivot works
http://www.kneb.net/bmw/F01-02/03_BM...%20Systems.pdf
Last edited by saturno_v; 08-26-2014 at 03:43 PM.
08-26-2014, 03:54 PM
#167
To judge a Honda product, you need to understand the company culture. Honda is drive by inspiration. They were inspired with a economy car and the Civic was born. Them a family sedan and produced the Accord. Go after Formula one, Indy.Teach Ferrari, Porsche how to built a sport car with the NSX. Was inspired with the roadster an built the S2000 and no Z3
or Boxter cant touch it. Sometimes Honda is bore and need a new challenge, and a RWD car
isnt that challenge, after all is a 1890 tecnology.
or Boxter cant touch it. Sometimes Honda is bore and need a new challenge, and a RWD car
isnt that challenge, after all is a 1890 tecnology.
08-26-2014, 04:04 PM
#168
LOL!
Clearly, Saturn is not going to be the TLX's customer. I have no problem with his review. But, having tested the TLX (4 and 6), ATS (3.6 and 2.0), the Q50, both the IS 250 and IS 350 F-Sport, C300 ('14), used to own a BMW E92 335i and an Audi S4, I can't see where he's coming from, at all.
I do like the 4G TL. I had a 3G before that....liked it, too.
The TLX is a pretty big step up from the 3G, and a significant step up from the 4G. You can tell where Acura put their development money....smoothness and refinement....ofthe suspension, the drivetrain, the opertion of the controls, the richness of the materials, etc. Yes, it's smaller than my TL SH AWD, but not on the inside. Some view that as a negative. I find it to be a positive as the TLX is certainly a better handler than either my 3G or my 4G.
Q50? See if you can keep from maing constant steering corrections while driving. It made me nuts. The electronics? Acura's electronics are so far ahead as it seems Infiniti's as an afterthought.
I did like the IS350. But, the IS250 is a dog. Equipped like for like with a TLX Advance, the IS 350 will knock on the $50K door. It would be a good car at $45K loaded up. $50K?. Not so much.
A 328i equipped like for like with a TLX Advance, again you're at $50K. A 335i? $60K like for like. And, look in the lower areas of the interior and the back seat and see where the cost cutting happened.
I loved my S4. It was plagued with problems, though. As famed as Audi's Quattro system is, it was rife with problems, as was the DSG. Quattro would bind (felt like one of the rear wheels would lock up going around a corner). DSG was easily confused....punch it coming around a corner and it was 50-50 whether it would bog, or drop down a gear or two and send you into the weeds. My TL's SH AWD system is better.
So, some will prefer one or the other above. To say the TLS is a "turd"? Clearly something is amiss with the poster's agenda. It's a good car. Hope to own one after I get a couple more years out of my 4G TL SH AWD Advance.
Clearly, Saturn is not going to be the TLX's customer. I have no problem with his review. But, having tested the TLX (4 and 6), ATS (3.6 and 2.0), the Q50, both the IS 250 and IS 350 F-Sport, C300 ('14), used to own a BMW E92 335i and an Audi S4, I can't see where he's coming from, at all.
I do like the 4G TL. I had a 3G before that....liked it, too.
The TLX is a pretty big step up from the 3G, and a significant step up from the 4G. You can tell where Acura put their development money....smoothness and refinement....ofthe suspension, the drivetrain, the opertion of the controls, the richness of the materials, etc. Yes, it's smaller than my TL SH AWD, but not on the inside. Some view that as a negative. I find it to be a positive as the TLX is certainly a better handler than either my 3G or my 4G.
Q50? See if you can keep from maing constant steering corrections while driving. It made me nuts. The electronics? Acura's electronics are so far ahead as it seems Infiniti's as an afterthought.
I did like the IS350. But, the IS250 is a dog. Equipped like for like with a TLX Advance, the IS 350 will knock on the $50K door. It would be a good car at $45K loaded up. $50K?. Not so much.
A 328i equipped like for like with a TLX Advance, again you're at $50K. A 335i? $60K like for like. And, look in the lower areas of the interior and the back seat and see where the cost cutting happened.
I loved my S4. It was plagued with problems, though. As famed as Audi's Quattro system is, it was rife with problems, as was the DSG. Quattro would bind (felt like one of the rear wheels would lock up going around a corner). DSG was easily confused....punch it coming around a corner and it was 50-50 whether it would bog, or drop down a gear or two and send you into the weeds. My TL's SH AWD system is better.
So, some will prefer one or the other above. To say the TLS is a "turd"? Clearly something is amiss with the poster's agenda. It's a good car. Hope to own one after I get a couple more years out of my 4G TL SH AWD Advance.
I know lots people complained about the look of the 4G. however, it's truly best bang for buck. size similar for a 5 series and cost less than a 3
08-26-2014, 04:20 PM
#169
Suzuka Master
i do not really agree with the TLX being a big step up from the 3G & 4G. i mean technology wise, yes no doubt the TLX is equipped with the lately technology. But i am not impressed that the overall size and build material.
I know lots people complained about the look of the 4G. however, it's truly best bang for buck. size similar for a 5 series and cost less than a 3
I know lots people complained about the look of the 4G. however, it's truly best bang for buck. size similar for a 5 series and cost less than a 3
The build material is not worse than the 4G..
Did you drive the same model of car I did? Seems to me you drove an ILX
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Gen4MDX (08-26-2014)
08-26-2014, 04:21 PM
#170
i do not really agree with the TLX being a big step up from the 3G & 4G. i mean technology wise, yes no doubt the TLX is equipped with the lately technology. But i am not impressed that the overall size and build material.
I know lots people complained about the look of the 4G. however, it's truly best bang for buck. size similar for a 5 series and cost less than a 3
I know lots people complained about the look of the 4G. however, it's truly best bang for buck. size similar for a 5 series and cost less than a 3
Try the tech in a C class...load it up like for like. See which tech performs better when compared to a TL or TLX. Even on the performance meter, the C class (aside from the much more expensive AMG model), the TLX will ourperform it. If you look at the new C400, with better performance, you're in the $60K neighborhood. And, just try to get leather in a C class (instead of them trying to convince you MB's vinyl is nicer than leather). So, I have a hard time making the case for Benz when they try to hoodwink their customers by telling them....."you don't want leather....our vinyl is wonderful. Doesn't sound like they use better materials to me.
Try the tech in a $50+K Q50. Let me know what you think of how it performs compared to a TLX.
I liked my E92 BMW. iDrive has come a long way. I've had BMWs out of warranty. It's not fun, nor cheap.
POint of all of this, it doesn't matter to me what you do or don't like.
The TLX is going to be a hit for Acura. It's built as well as anything else on the road (as is typical Acura). It incorporates a lot of content and materials that for the money, can't be found on the competition. Plus, Acuras just work. I take mine for granted it works so well. From the Nav, to the ELS to the SH AWD system, etc.
Hard to say that about other cars in the class.
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08-26-2014, 05:01 PM
#171
AZ Community Team
BMW's dual pivot is different yet still suffers from the same disadvantages that the upper suspension attachment is fixed in geometry. The dual pivot allows better brake dive and steering control but still has similar problems to what other front suspension strut suspensions have. It's in the same category, you may not want to believe so but it's a strut suspension with fixed upper attachment. 
Honda's press releases also promoted the better crash protection with their new strut suspension, ability to incorporate better crash crumple area to the upper strut tower. None the less I think it was done for cost reduction.
In terms of the Honda previous DWB and current strut, the previous reviews of Honda/Acura's for their DWB suspension designs were very positive. It contains more components and has more operational steps for vehicle assembly so your alluding to Honda's "perfectly possible" cost saving on the DWB is a proof-less and pointless suggestion. Honda has long advertised it's DWB engineering and performance since the 2G Prelude three decades ago.
Honda's press releases also promoted the better crash protection with their new strut suspension, ability to incorporate better crash crumple area to the upper strut tower. None the less I think it was done for cost reduction.
In terms of the Honda previous DWB and current strut, the previous reviews of Honda/Acura's for their DWB suspension designs were very positive. It contains more components and has more operational steps for vehicle assembly so your alluding to Honda's "perfectly possible" cost saving on the DWB is a proof-less and pointless suggestion. Honda has long advertised it's DWB engineering and performance since the 2G Prelude three decades ago.
...and you do not get what I'm trying to say...first of all the BMW dual pivot setup is quite a bit different than a regular strut so I would not lump it together tout court.
Thank you Mr. Obvious for telling me that the suspension setup is not the only important thing in a car and that the entire vehicle must be engineered very well.....I had no idea..
As a standalone component a DW setup is superior to a simple strut for the reason you already explained and I do not need to rehash and it is no debatable.....yes just a DW setup is not going to make Yugo a sublime handling sport car.
When suspension travel is more limited, a strut setup can be at less disadvantage.
It is perfectly possible that the Accord DW setup was not optimal because of cost/engineering constraints, or other components contributed to improve handling and ride reality is I do not know....you and I do not know if the switch from DW to struts alone contributed to the improved handling.
All I know is that luxury sedans currently use almost exclusively use DW setup up front or 4 links setup or substantial tricked up strut in the case of BMW for the 3 Series (again, there are rumors they may move to a DW setup for the F30 successor)
The C Class has just moved to a 4 links design.
I do not know how the ATS front struts is designed.
For the interested ones, this is an explanation now how the BMW Double Pivot works
http://www.kneb.net/bmw/F01-02/03_BM...%20Systems.pdf
Thank you Mr. Obvious for telling me that the suspension setup is not the only important thing in a car and that the entire vehicle must be engineered very well.....I had no idea..
As a standalone component a DW setup is superior to a simple strut for the reason you already explained and I do not need to rehash and it is no debatable.....yes just a DW setup is not going to make Yugo a sublime handling sport car.
When suspension travel is more limited, a strut setup can be at less disadvantage.
It is perfectly possible that the Accord DW setup was not optimal because of cost/engineering constraints, or other components contributed to improve handling and ride reality is I do not know....you and I do not know if the switch from DW to struts alone contributed to the improved handling.
All I know is that luxury sedans currently use almost exclusively use DW setup up front or 4 links setup or substantial tricked up strut in the case of BMW for the 3 Series (again, there are rumors they may move to a DW setup for the F30 successor)
The C Class has just moved to a 4 links design.
I do not know how the ATS front struts is designed.
For the interested ones, this is an explanation now how the BMW Double Pivot works
http://www.kneb.net/bmw/F01-02/03_BM...%20Systems.pdf
Last edited by Legend2TL; 08-26-2014 at 05:11 PM.
08-26-2014, 05:26 PM
#172
It's different yet still suffers from the same disadvantages that the upper suspension attachment is fixed in geometry. The dual pivot allows better brake dive and steering control but still has similar problems to what other front suspension strut suspensions have. It's in the same category, you might want to believe so but it's a strut suspension with fixed upper attachment.
From BMW literature:
================================================== ===
Double Pivot Operation
The true benefits of the double-pivot suspension become more evident during turns.
On a traditional single-pivot design, the camber and caster remain static during steering maneuvers. On a vehicle with positive caster, the wheels tend to “flop over” during turns.
This situation reduces the tire contact area with the road and increases the effort required for steering wheel return. The steering offset (scrub) also remains fixed which has a negative impact on steering wheel return as well.
The double-pivot design allows the “imaginary” lower pivot point to change relative location during turns. The tire which is on the outside of the turn is carrying the majority of the load. Therefore it is the outside tire which must have the most contact area with the road surface.
On a turn, the double-pivot design causes the caster and camber on the outside wheel to become closer to zero. This optimizes the “contact patch” between the tire and the road greatly enhancing handling characteristics.
The body roll is also reduced by the caster change towards zero. One of the other benefits of this arrangement is the variable steering offset. The variable steering offset during turns provides for better “returnability” of the steering wheel.
Additional advantages of the double pivot system are:
• Ability to reduce body roll while cornering.
• Reduces front end dive tendencies during severe braking situations.
• Utilization of a small positive steering offset, which offers improved handling.
This is more evident when the friction levels differ while braking.
• Improved caster position, improving straight line stability at higher speeds,
plus better steering return after small steering inputs.
================================================== ====
...by the way I researched the ATS and, no surprise here, the front suspension setup takes a page from BMW, it is a Double Pivot...Cadiilac sells it as a "multi-link double-pivot MacPherson-strut"
However even the tricked out struts (BMW, Cadillac) disappear from the luxury sedans once you go up from entry level (5 Series, CTS, A6, etc..)
In terms of the Honda previous DWB and current strut, the previous reviews of Accords/TL's were very positive for overall suspension performance. It contains more components and has more operational steps to assembly so your alluding to Honda's cost saving on the DWB is proof-less and pointless suggestion. Honda has long advertised it's DWB engineering and performance since the 2G Prelude three decades ago.
Last edited by saturno_v; 08-26-2014 at 05:33 PM.
08-26-2014, 07:07 PM
#173
That's always been Acura's claim to fame, ever since the Legends and Integras first hit this market. That they offer best bang for the buck in the luxury car field.
Try the tech in a C class...load it up like for like. See which tech performs better when compared to a TL or TLX. Even on the performance meter, the C class (aside from the much more expensive AMG model), the TLX will ourperform it. If you look at the new C400, with better performance, you're in the $60K neighborhood. And, just try to get leather in a C class (instead of them trying to convince you MB's vinyl is nicer than leather). So, I have a hard time making the case for Benz when they try to hoodwink their customers by telling them....."you don't want leather....our vinyl is wonderful. Doesn't sound like they use better materials to me.
Try the tech in a $50+K Q50. Let me know what you think of how it performs compared to a TLX.
I liked my E92 BMW. iDrive has come a long way. I've had BMWs out of warranty. It's not fun, nor cheap.
POint of all of this, it doesn't matter to me what you do or don't like.
The TLX is going to be a hit for Acura. It's built as well as anything else on the road (as is typical Acura). It incorporates a lot of content and materials that for the money, can't be found on the competition. Plus, Acuras just work. I take mine for granted it works so well. From the Nav, to the ELS to the SH AWD system, etc.
Hard to say that about other cars in the class.
Try the tech in a C class...load it up like for like. See which tech performs better when compared to a TL or TLX. Even on the performance meter, the C class (aside from the much more expensive AMG model), the TLX will ourperform it. If you look at the new C400, with better performance, you're in the $60K neighborhood. And, just try to get leather in a C class (instead of them trying to convince you MB's vinyl is nicer than leather). So, I have a hard time making the case for Benz when they try to hoodwink their customers by telling them....."you don't want leather....our vinyl is wonderful. Doesn't sound like they use better materials to me.
Try the tech in a $50+K Q50. Let me know what you think of how it performs compared to a TLX.
I liked my E92 BMW. iDrive has come a long way. I've had BMWs out of warranty. It's not fun, nor cheap.
POint of all of this, it doesn't matter to me what you do or don't like.
The TLX is going to be a hit for Acura. It's built as well as anything else on the road (as is typical Acura). It incorporates a lot of content and materials that for the money, can't be found on the competition. Plus, Acuras just work. I take mine for granted it works so well. From the Nav, to the ELS to the SH AWD system, etc.
Hard to say that about other cars in the class.
I had an 09 E350. The newer ones may be nicer/better but my car was not cheap ($58,000). The voice recognition and the navigation (DVD) wasn't nearly as good as the TLX. The E350 wouldn't recognize my phone for hands free link. No problem with the TLX. Had MB-tex instead of leather. Wears like iron but gets very,very hot when sitting in the sun in summer and doesn't have that rich leather feel. Car had a panorama roof that started creaking when you hit certain bumps or stressed the body on uneven surfaces or in tight turns. Very annoying and ridiculous on a premium luxury car and service couldn't do anything about it. Had a horn go out. That was $344 to replace. The motor mounts and tranny mounts collapsed (hydraulic). That was $1350 to replace (only had 65,000 miles). Luckily I had an extended warranty that covered it and now that I've traded the car I'll be getting a large part of it back. The car did have a smooth, refined drive train but wasn't as responsive to throttle input as the TLX.
The Benz was a nice riding, quiet, solid car but for that kind of money, it had some unacceptable issues.
08-26-2014, 07:12 PM
#174
Liquid Ice
The issue I have with MacPherson struts is vibration - someone else explained it better than I probably ever could, but the vibration that is transferred through the car on a MacPherson strut car is significantly worse than one with a double wishbone setup - even on a very soft suspension setup like on my old 2011 Lexus ES350 - it tried its best to isolate you from the road - but you still felt quite a bit of vibration when you were on a less than smooth road.
I have not experienced the same amount of jarring vibrations in my 2014 GS350, 2003 TL-S, 2004 S2000 (although the S2000 is a lot more stiffly sprung so you still feel bumps a lot more - but not the vibrations following hitting the bump). I haven't drove in my wife's MDX enough yet to know if the MacPherson struts will do the same thing - but I wouldn't be surprised if they did.
The TLX also had this same vibration that I've found in other MacPherson strut setups.
Comparing to why others have different comments about the car than me - its possible I am sensitive to it? Or maybe the roads where others have test driven the TLX are a lot better than the roads where I am testing it? I don't know - but I definitely can feel a difference. I don't know if it is his camera placement or what - but it seems like you can even hear it in this review - while overall positive about the car, when he goes over bumps in the road, the camera vibrates a lot (see about 13:20 in when he test drives the car):
4WDrift explained it like this:
I have not experienced the same amount of jarring vibrations in my 2014 GS350, 2003 TL-S, 2004 S2000 (although the S2000 is a lot more stiffly sprung so you still feel bumps a lot more - but not the vibrations following hitting the bump). I haven't drove in my wife's MDX enough yet to know if the MacPherson struts will do the same thing - but I wouldn't be surprised if they did.
The TLX also had this same vibration that I've found in other MacPherson strut setups.
Comparing to why others have different comments about the car than me - its possible I am sensitive to it? Or maybe the roads where others have test driven the TLX are a lot better than the roads where I am testing it? I don't know - but I definitely can feel a difference. I don't know if it is his camera placement or what - but it seems like you can even hear it in this review - while overall positive about the car, when he goes over bumps in the road, the camera vibrates a lot (see about 13:20 in when he test drives the car):
4WDrift explained it like this:
Noise and vibration are also transmitted more into the unibody, as the strut acts as a sounding rod. This may be a poor example, but pump your fists straight up and down next to your sides, and then extend them out in front and do the same vertically. There is less movement (vibration/noise) transferred to your body out front as in the wishbone/multilink design.
08-26-2014, 07:20 PM
#175
Liquid Ice
I think that's exactly what the TLX is, the next wring of the TL ladder. The 4 cyl TLX covers the TSX ground, while the V6 covers the the TL ground. TLX felt better all the way around. The biggest upgrade over the TL was the TLX suspension. It's as sophisticated feeling as anything I've driven in the past. Amazingly, for a a FWD car, there was no torque steer...NONE! I stomped the V6 pretty good, too. Still couldn't induce any torque steer. I purposely took the TLX over rough pavement. It is as controlled and as absorbent as my sister's E350. That's high praise.
08-26-2014, 07:38 PM
#176
Suzuka Master
The issue I have with MacPherson struts is vibration - someone else explained it better than I probably ever could, but the vibration that is transferred through the car on a MacPherson strut car is significantly worse than one with a double wishbone setup - even on a very soft suspension setup like on my old 2011 Lexus ES350 - it tried its best to isolate you from the road - but you still felt quite a bit of vibration when you were on a less than smooth road.
I have not experienced the same amount of jarring vibrations in my 2014 GS350, 2003 TL-S, 2004 S2000 (although the S2000 is a lot more stiffly sprung so you still feel bumps a lot more - but not the vibrations following hitting the bump). I haven't drove in my wife's MDX enough yet to know if the MacPherson struts will do the same thing - but I wouldn't be surprised if they did.
The TLX also had this same vibration that I've found in other MacPherson strut setups.
Comparing to why others have different comments about the car than me - its possible I am sensitive to it? Or maybe the roads where others have test driven the TLX are a lot better than the roads where I am testing it? I don't know - but I definitely can feel a difference. I don't know if it is his camera placement or what - but it seems like you can even hear it in this review - while overall positive about the car, when he goes over bumps in the road, the camera vibrates a lot (see about 13:20 in when he test drives the car):
4WDrift explained it like this:
I have not experienced the same amount of jarring vibrations in my 2014 GS350, 2003 TL-S, 2004 S2000 (although the S2000 is a lot more stiffly sprung so you still feel bumps a lot more - but not the vibrations following hitting the bump). I haven't drove in my wife's MDX enough yet to know if the MacPherson struts will do the same thing - but I wouldn't be surprised if they did.
The TLX also had this same vibration that I've found in other MacPherson strut setups.
Comparing to why others have different comments about the car than me - its possible I am sensitive to it? Or maybe the roads where others have test driven the TLX are a lot better than the roads where I am testing it? I don't know - but I definitely can feel a difference. I don't know if it is his camera placement or what - but it seems like you can even hear it in this review - while overall positive about the car, when he goes over bumps in the road, the camera vibrates a lot (see about 13:20 in when he test drives the car):
4WDrift explained it like this:
08-26-2014, 08:32 PM
#177
Acura is a confused car maker. If you are gonna to make an I4 TLX, why even bother with the ILX. Acura just slap together some plastic and hope for the best. Fortunately for them, there are millions of Honda admirers out there. Oh, they will be able to sell the TLX after the 4G fiasco.
To me, Acura just hopes the TLX is a sales saver for them because the sedan lineup has been tanking so hard. It is a place holder . Acura hopes the TLX will keep them in the game until they can figure out what they want to do with the brand. Maybe Ito-san will finally fire the sales/marketing people and designers in Torrance and Pasadena.
I myself will not buy another Acura til they get rid of the beak.
To me, Acura just hopes the TLX is a sales saver for them because the sedan lineup has been tanking so hard. It is a place holder . Acura hopes the TLX will keep them in the game until they can figure out what they want to do with the brand. Maybe Ito-san will finally fire the sales/marketing people and designers in Torrance and Pasadena.
I myself will not buy another Acura til they get rid of the beak.
Audi an A3/4/5?
What are you trying to say?
08-26-2014, 08:33 PM
#178
Drifting
On the struts vs. DWB issue, we have a 7G Accord (now driven by our son). When the 9G Accord came out, I was chagrined to learn it had struts. Fast forward, we drove one, were wowed, and bought it. Having lived with the 9G Accord now for about 18 months (same platform as TLX), I can say it blows away the DWB Accord in handling, ride comfort and NVH. Of course, this is not due to the change to struts, but my point is, as discussed above, that a strut front suspension car can be engineered to ride better and quieter and handle better than a DWB car (street car, that is). And if anyone can figure out how to do that, I trust Honda engineers to do so. They did, in spades.
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Stew4HD (08-27-2014)
08-26-2014, 08:45 PM
#179
Liquid Ice
But I've experienced the vibration problem on all MacPherson Strut cars that I've driven - not just the TLX. Without having even known a car had MacPherson strut before driving it - I noticed the increased vibration and then found out it was indeed MacPherson struts (not for the TLX, but that was the case with the RSX). What I'm describing is not what you feel when you hit the bump itself - it is the vibration that occurs right you hit a bump in the road. I'm probably not doing a good enough job explaining it - but I find it very jarring. Again - that might just be me personally.
However - ignoring bias here for a second and talking strictly engineering - the MacPherson Strut design does have increased noise and vibration noted as a drawback in the suspension design compared to other suspensions including double wishbone.
A few examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacPher..._disadvantages
http://www.rapid-racer.com/suspension.php
http://m5carblog.blogspot.com/2013/02/suspension.html
08-26-2014, 08:53 PM
#180
Actually, you'll find the reason Lexus is discounting the GS is because they are 2014s and the 2015s will be out shortly. Similar to how the 2014 model introduced new features for the GS (power folding side mirrors & rear cross traffic alert) - the 2015 will likely get a navigation upgrade to match the IS's new navigation. It has been confirmed the 2015 GS will already support RES+ ( https://www.lexusresplus.com/index.jsp ) which allows you to remote start your car via smartphone app amongst some other things.
The sales goal of the GS350 is 20,000 units per year. In 2012, the GS350 sold 22,160 - above the sales target. In 2013, the GS350 sold 19,742 - near the sales goal. As of July 2014, Lexus sold 12,123 units of the GS350 versus 2013 when they sold 10,790 - so I believe they are on target to sell 20,000 units before the end of the year.
Obviously Acura doesn't have a previous year model to discount for the TLX (but I bet 2014 TL and TSX models are marked down quite a bit) - I think next year you will likely find significant discounts on the TLX - unless they are still somehow commanding higher prices due to extreme demand (totally possible).
Anyway - I digress...
The sales goal of the GS350 is 20,000 units per year. In 2012, the GS350 sold 22,160 - above the sales target. In 2013, the GS350 sold 19,742 - near the sales goal. As of July 2014, Lexus sold 12,123 units of the GS350 versus 2013 when they sold 10,790 - so I believe they are on target to sell 20,000 units before the end of the year.
Obviously Acura doesn't have a previous year model to discount for the TLX (but I bet 2014 TL and TSX models are marked down quite a bit) - I think next year you will likely find significant discounts on the TLX - unless they are still somehow commanding higher prices due to extreme demand (totally possible).
Anyway - I digress...
08-26-2014, 09:06 PM
#181
The biggest upgrade over the TL was the TLX suspension. It's as sophisticated feeling as anything I've driven in the past. Amazingly, for a a FWD car, there was no torque steer...NONE! I stomped the V6 pretty good, too. Still couldn't induce any torque steer. I purposely took the TLX over rough pavement. It is as controlled and as absorbent as my sister's E350. That's high praise.
You claim that the luxury-tuned FWD TLX with struts is a big upgrade over the TL SH-AWD with double wishbones? Perhaps in ride (and trunk space, due to the struts) only, and this is mainly because of the sporty stiff tune that the TL SH-AWD has. In handling, there is no indication whatsoever that the FWD TLX even attempts at the same level of sport handling of the TL SH-AWD. I'm sure that YOU felt no torque steer on the FWD TLX because you didn't push it very hard, which is probably also the reason you claim the TLX suspension is an upgrade over the SH-AWD TL.
Of course, if you admit to being a non-enthusiast or are looking for an ES350 competitor, your viewpoint is forgiven.
Now, if you're to compare the suspensions of the yet-to-be-release TLX SH-AWD vs the TL SH-AWD, we may have different results, but this is purely speculation (even Acura claims the suspension of the TLX SH-AWD is not a Type-S like tune that the TL SH-AWD has).
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08-26-2014, 09:22 PM
#182
Liquid Ice
Acura doesn't have a sales goal for the TLX?
IIRC, the TLX is expected to sell 45,000 units per year.
The GS also has a sales goal, and it was 20,000 units per year.
Examples showing the 20,000 unit goal -
http://pricinginsider.carsdirect.com...0-first-drive/
http://www.automotive.com/lexus/gs350/2013/first-drive/
Don't tell me you don't think there aren't discounts towards the end of a model year.
I just bought a 2014 MDX which has been selling really well - I paid under invoice price. Are you telling me Acura must not be selling the MDX since they sold me a 2014 MDX for under invoice?
08-26-2014, 10:07 PM
#183
I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to say with your post.
Acura doesn't have a sales goal for the TLX?
IIRC, the TLX is expected to sell 45,000 units per year.
The GS also has a sales goal, and it was 20,000 units per year.
Examples showing the 20,000 unit goal -
http://pricinginsider.carsdirect.com...0-first-drive/
http://www.automotive.com/lexus/gs350/2013/first-drive/
Don't tell me you don't think there aren't discounts towards the end of a model year.
I just bought a 2014 MDX which has been selling really well - I paid under invoice price. Are you telling me Acura must not be selling the MDX since they sold me a 2014 MDX for under invoice?
Acura doesn't have a sales goal for the TLX?
IIRC, the TLX is expected to sell 45,000 units per year.
The GS also has a sales goal, and it was 20,000 units per year.
Examples showing the 20,000 unit goal -
http://pricinginsider.carsdirect.com...0-first-drive/
http://www.automotive.com/lexus/gs350/2013/first-drive/
Don't tell me you don't think there aren't discounts towards the end of a model year.
I just bought a 2014 MDX which has been selling really well - I paid under invoice price. Are you telling me Acura must not be selling the MDX since they sold me a 2014 MDX for under invoice?
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LiQiCE (08-27-2014)
08-26-2014, 10:23 PM
#184
On the struts vs. DWB issue, we have a 7G Accord (now driven by our son). When the 9G Accord came out, I was chagrined to learn it had struts. Fast forward, we drove one, were wowed, and bought it. Having lived with the 9G Accord now for about 18 months (same platform as TLX), I can say it blows away the DWB Accord in handling, ride comfort and NVH. Of course, this is not due to the change to struts, but my point is, as discussed above, that a strut front suspension car can be engineered to ride better and quieter and handle better than a DWB car (street car, that is). And if anyone can figure out how to do that, I trust Honda engineers to do so. They did, in spades.
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LiQiCE (08-27-2014)
08-26-2014, 10:45 PM
#185
Your quotes above show serious signs of infatuation, to the point of mixing fact from fiction.
You claim that the luxury-tuned FWD TLX with struts is a big upgrade over the TL SH-AWD with double wishbones? Perhaps in ride (and trunk space, due to the struts) only, and this is mainly because of the sporty stiff tune that the TL SH-AWD has. In handling, there is no indication whatsoever that the FWD TLX even attempts at the same level of sport handling of the TL SH-AWD. I'm sure that YOU felt no torque steer on the FWD TLX because you didn't push it very hard, which is probably also the reason you claim the TLX suspension is an upgrade over the SH-AWD TL.
Of course, if you admit to being a non-enthusiast or are looking for an ES350 competitor, your viewpoint is forgiven.
Now, if you're to compare the suspensions of the yet-to-be-release TLX SH-AWD vs the TL SH-AWD, we may have different results, but this is purely speculation (even Acura claims the suspension of the TLX SH-AWD is not a Type-S like tune that the TL SH-AWD has).
You claim that the luxury-tuned FWD TLX with struts is a big upgrade over the TL SH-AWD with double wishbones? Perhaps in ride (and trunk space, due to the struts) only, and this is mainly because of the sporty stiff tune that the TL SH-AWD has. In handling, there is no indication whatsoever that the FWD TLX even attempts at the same level of sport handling of the TL SH-AWD. I'm sure that YOU felt no torque steer on the FWD TLX because you didn't push it very hard, which is probably also the reason you claim the TLX suspension is an upgrade over the SH-AWD TL.
Of course, if you admit to being a non-enthusiast or are looking for an ES350 competitor, your viewpoint is forgiven.
Now, if you're to compare the suspensions of the yet-to-be-release TLX SH-AWD vs the TL SH-AWD, we may have different results, but this is purely speculation (even Acura claims the suspension of the TLX SH-AWD is not a Type-S like tune that the TL SH-AWD has).
I'm infatuated with every car I've ever bought. That's the reason I've plopped down my hard earned cash for them. But, I'ver never been loyal to any one car company. That's why I've owned BMWs, and Audi, and Acuras. For reasons that confound my firends, I'm always looking for my next car. It seems like I'm test driving new cars every 2-3 months.
I've had RWD vehilces, FWD vehicles, AWD vehicles. It's been predeternined that FWD cars are somehow not very good. That's bunk BMW is bringing out FWD cars, Mercedes has already brought a FWD car here (CLA). Audi, part of the "big 3" of German car makers, has their cars based on FWD platforms.
Point is, FWD, RWD cars done well, are all able to be good handlers, if done right. Don't care if you're using MacPhearson strts, Wishbone, whichever type you want, if done right, they're going to perform well if engineered well, as part of a whole.
If you felt torque steer, you're full throttle take off was scuttled by wheelspin, probably not torque steer. That's what I experienced, wheel spin.
I'm not trying to convince anyone what to buy, just what I've experienced.
If you don't like FWD cars, don't buy an Acura or Audi or CLA. If you don't want a TLX, no harm-no foul.
08-27-2014, 04:47 AM
#186
Suzuka Master
On the struts vs. DWB issue, we have a 7G Accord (now driven by our son). When the 9G Accord came out, I was chagrined to learn it had struts. Fast forward, we drove one, were wowed, and bought it. Having lived with the 9G Accord now for about 18 months (same platform as TLX), I can say it blows away the DWB Accord in handling, ride comfort and NVH. Of course, this is not due to the change to struts, but my point is, as discussed above, that a strut front suspension car can be engineered to ride better and quieter and handle better than a DWB car (street car, that is). And if anyone can figure out how to do that, I trust Honda engineers to do so. They did, in spades.
Struts cause deep and constant jarring that just cannot be overcome! DWB is the only suspension that can be safely used! We are merely biased if we don't feel that jarring that will rattle your teeth and shake your bones! /endsarc
08-27-2014, 04:49 AM
#187
Suzuka Master
I think one could easily say the same about you, you've wanted a TLX and have been overall very positive about it. I know you've said in the past you want to remain overall positive - but that seems to be limited to the TLX, and not for example the GS. Your posts on ClubLexus.com were the opposite when you were test driving and right after you bought the GS - you were more negative on the 4G TL, Acura - and even the TLX at the time. So I don't think you can claim my judgement to be biased without also saying yours is too.
But I've experienced the vibration problem on all MacPherson Strut cars that I've driven - not just the TLX. Without having even known a car had MacPherson strut before driving it - I noticed the increased vibration and then found out it was indeed MacPherson struts (not for the TLX, but that was the case with the RSX). What I'm describing is not what you feel when you hit the bump itself - it is the vibration that occurs right you hit a bump in the road. I'm probably not doing a good enough job explaining it - but I find it very jarring. Again - that might just be me personally.
However - ignoring bias here for a second and talking strictly engineering - the MacPherson Strut design does have increased noise and vibration noted as a drawback in the suspension design compared to other suspensions including double wishbone.
A few examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacPher..._disadvantages
http://www.rapid-racer.com/suspension.php
http://m5carblog.blogspot.com/2013/02/suspension.html
But I've experienced the vibration problem on all MacPherson Strut cars that I've driven - not just the TLX. Without having even known a car had MacPherson strut before driving it - I noticed the increased vibration and then found out it was indeed MacPherson struts (not for the TLX, but that was the case with the RSX). What I'm describing is not what you feel when you hit the bump itself - it is the vibration that occurs right you hit a bump in the road. I'm probably not doing a good enough job explaining it - but I find it very jarring. Again - that might just be me personally.
However - ignoring bias here for a second and talking strictly engineering - the MacPherson Strut design does have increased noise and vibration noted as a drawback in the suspension design compared to other suspensions including double wishbone.
A few examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacPher..._disadvantages
http://www.rapid-racer.com/suspension.php
http://m5carblog.blogspot.com/2013/02/suspension.html
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Acura_Dude (08-27-2014)
08-27-2014, 06:13 AM
#188
Liquid Ice
You may think that I'm trying to justify my purchase, but I actually test drove the TLX because I am considering it as my next car once the lease on the GS is up. I'll still consider it when it gets closer to my lease end - especially if a Type S model comes out.
I didn't call it a turd on wheel or hate it - there were just certain aspects of it that I didn't like (my opinion). You can claim all you want that its bias - but sometimes people just don't like something about a car. Just like there were aspects of the GS you didn't like - you're entitled to your opinion - is that Acura bias which caused you to not like your GS?
I do compare the TLX to my GS because it is a car I own - fair or not, comparing it to what you know is going to happen - whether its a GS or a BMW or another Acura. I also have compared it to my 2G TL. If you don't like the comparisons - then you should probably not be on a car forum.
I still think the TLX is a good car - we both agree that the car is significantly quieter at highway speeds, especially compared to the 4G TL. You can even watch video reviews from the same reviewer on both the 4G TL and TLX and the difference is clear, the car is really quiet - thats great. With the FWD V6 Tech I drove, I didn't notice the 9AT hesitation that others have (driving in normal, sport and sport+). I did notice torque steer (car pulling one direction without steering input) - but thats to be expected from a FWD car with a lot of horsepower.
In any opinions where my opinion varies from others - I've even said that perhaps I'm more sensitive to vibration or tried to clarify my opinion so others could see where I'm coming from.
But if you think I'm biased and only trying to justify my purchase - then go ahead and ignore anything I have to say. Anyone else who has anything negative to say about the TLX is probably biased too...
08-27-2014, 06:40 AM
#189
Liquid Ice
BTW- I can say plenty of negative things about the cars I own, but this is a TLX forum, so it never made sense to me to tell you about the things I don't like about the GS, S2K, MDX or 2G TL.
08-27-2014, 09:07 AM
#190
AZ Community Team
It's the overall design of the chassis and suspension. Inherently all suspensions whether multi-link, DWB or strut have the same issue with transmission of wheel/tire vibration to the vehicle. It's not as you significantly worst as you claim for a strut, if that was the case BMW would have been using multilink for their flagship 7 series from the start.
It's a inherent problem for any suspension/chassis design on how to dissipate the energy from road irregularity/disturbances.
As for the YouTube clip, he complements the overall TLX by saying it's a much more premium sedan compared to the previous TL's at 15:15 including a better ride and quieter interior.
As for why you feel that way, perhaps it's your hyper sensitivity or bias as knowing it's struts?
Honda's Accord suspension marketing video
It's a inherent problem for any suspension/chassis design on how to dissipate the energy from road irregularity/disturbances.
As for the YouTube clip, he complements the overall TLX by saying it's a much more premium sedan compared to the previous TL's at 15:15 including a better ride and quieter interior.
As for why you feel that way, perhaps it's your hyper sensitivity or bias as knowing it's struts?
Honda's Accord suspension marketing video
The issue I have with MacPherson struts is vibration - someone else explained it better than I probably ever could, but the vibration that is transferred through the car on a MacPherson strut car is significantly worse than one with a double wishbone setup - even on a very soft suspension setup like on my old 2011 Lexus ES350 - it tried its best to isolate you from the road - but you still felt quite a bit of vibration when you were on a less than smooth road.
I have not experienced the same amount of jarring vibrations in my 2014 GS350, 2003 TL-S, 2004 S2000 (although the S2000 is a lot more stiffly sprung so you still feel bumps a lot more - but not the vibrations following hitting the bump). I haven't drove in my wife's MDX enough yet to know if the MacPherson struts will do the same thing - but I wouldn't be surprised if they did.
The TLX also had this same vibration that I've found in other MacPherson strut setups.
Comparing to why others have different comments about the car than me - its possible I am sensitive to it? Or maybe the roads where others have test driven the TLX are a lot better than the roads where I am testing it? I don't know - but I definitely can feel a difference. I don't know if it is his camera placement or what - but it seems like you can even hear it in this review - while overall positive about the car, when he goes over bumps in the road, the camera vibrates a lot (see about 13:20 in when he test drives the car):
Redline Review: 2015 Acura TLX V6 - YouTube
4WDrift explained it like this:
I have not experienced the same amount of jarring vibrations in my 2014 GS350, 2003 TL-S, 2004 S2000 (although the S2000 is a lot more stiffly sprung so you still feel bumps a lot more - but not the vibrations following hitting the bump). I haven't drove in my wife's MDX enough yet to know if the MacPherson struts will do the same thing - but I wouldn't be surprised if they did.
The TLX also had this same vibration that I've found in other MacPherson strut setups.
Comparing to why others have different comments about the car than me - its possible I am sensitive to it? Or maybe the roads where others have test driven the TLX are a lot better than the roads where I am testing it? I don't know - but I definitely can feel a difference. I don't know if it is his camera placement or what - but it seems like you can even hear it in this review - while overall positive about the car, when he goes over bumps in the road, the camera vibrates a lot (see about 13:20 in when he test drives the car):
Redline Review: 2015 Acura TLX V6 - YouTube
4WDrift explained it like this:
Last edited by Legend2TL; 08-27-2014 at 09:16 AM.
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Stew4HD (08-27-2014)
08-27-2014, 09:12 AM
#191
AZ Community Team
...
I did not suggest anything...I told you that I do not know what contributed to the supposed better handling of the new Accord with struts compared to the previous one with DW...mine was a wild speculation...as I said before it may have nothing to do with the front suspension setup....in principle, however, a strut design saves money compared to a DW setup.
I did not suggest anything...I told you that I do not know what contributed to the supposed better handling of the new Accord with struts compared to the previous one with DW...mine was a wild speculation...as I said before it may have nothing to do with the front suspension setup....in principle, however, a strut design saves money compared to a DW setup.
It is perfectly possible that the Accord DW setup was not optimal because of cost/engineering constraints, or other components contributed to improve handling and ride reality is I do not know....you and I do not know if the switch from DW to struts alone contributed to the improved handling.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 08-27-2014 at 09:19 AM.
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Stew4HD (08-27-2014)
08-27-2014, 09:33 AM
#192
The TLX is a BIG step up from 3G in my opinion. I had an '08 3G and was happy to trade it for the 4G. I found the 4G to be a nice big step up from the 3G. I think the TLX is a step up from the 4G.
The build material is not worse than the 4G..
Did you drive the same model of car I did? Seems to me you drove an ILX
The build material is not worse than the 4G..
Did you drive the same model of car I did? Seems to me you drove an ILX
last but not least, I do not drive a ILX. i currently own a 3G and drive my brother's 4G all the time. so do not assume because that makes an ass you and me
08-27-2014, 09:42 AM
#193
Suzuka Master
lol another owner pride that cannot be touched. i know you just recently purchased the TLX and congrat. I am not trashing your TLX or anything. But most people don't give much credit to the 4G just because of the front grille. Performance and price wise, the 4G is a great great choice. As for the 3G, it's been 10 years since it first came out and it still looks as good as the modern cars. Remember how people complained about the bland look of the TLX and how much you guys hated it when it first introduced. Again, people change as well as their opinions. I hope the TLX will do well and save Acura.
last but not least, I do not drive a ILX. i currently own a 3G and drive my brother's 4G all the time. so do not assume because that makes an ass you and me
last but not least, I do not drive a ILX. i currently own a 3G and drive my brother's 4G all the time. so do not assume because that makes an ass you and me
I was merely giving my opinion.
08-27-2014, 10:34 AM
#194
Test drove a veyron oday. Acura is in trouble with the NSX. I don't care if the the NSX is $800,000 less if they are gonna call it a super car we gotta compare it to the likes of they Pagani Maclaren and bugatti. Compared those cars though the NSX is gonna feel like a turd on wheels. It definitely wont have that gotta have it feel compared to those other supercars. When is Acura gonna step up to the plate?
08-27-2014, 10:41 AM
#195
Suzuka Master
Test drove a veyron oday. Acura is in trouble with the NSX. I don't care if the the NSX is $800,000 less if they are gonna call it a super car we gotta compare it to the likes of they Pagani Maclaren and bugatti. Compared those cars though the NSX is gonna feel like a turd on wheels. It definitely wont have that gotta have it feel compared to those other supercars. When is Acura gonna step up to the plate?
08-27-2014, 11:42 AM
#196
Suzuka Master
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08-27-2014, 11:55 AM
#197
Suzuka Master
So, because it looks like I will buy one means I already own one.
I can hardly wait to get off work and drive this car I do not own home, zipping in and out of traffic, causing accidents all along the way.....
I don't worry because it looks like I will win the lottery and money will be no object....
08-27-2014, 12:32 PM
#198
Senior Moderator
I definitely got torque steer when flooring the car from a rolling start (merging onto the highway and then gunning it) - You would expect torque steer from a 300hp FWD car. The video I just posted, the reviewer also got a lot of torque steer out of the V6 FWD (see around 15:31).
Suspension, Axle length (equal length), Tires, Differential, Any one of those in specific can cause or help to eliminate it. Im putting out over 300hp to the wheels in my TL and with (my current set) summer tires i have zero TQ steer, i had it with different summer tires i had prior. With my snow tires on it feels like im trying to wrestle a fat chick covered in oil
Last edited by fsttyms1; 08-27-2014 at 12:35 PM.
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LiQiCE (08-27-2014)
Fattttttyyyyyyy
08-27-2014, 01:22 PM
#200
I just described, posting links, the BMW strut design...no "innuendos"
Again, we do not know what are the element that gives the latest Accord generation a better handling and ride...."better handling and ride" is not very specific.
I think a simple strut design is perfectly fine for a midsize sedan without particularly sporty intentions by the way......in that price range is perfectly acceptable.