The G35/37 was beat around willow springs racetrack by a TL-S, which also beat a lexus IS350.

Power isn't everything, with a proper chassis setup you can blow away the competition with less power. Exactly what acura did with the 1G NSX.

Acura can't get away with sticking the type-R motor in the TLX. It's to heavy and needs more oomph than to have a 5-10HP premium over the TLX.

If anything, I'd imagine a 3L Earth dreams engine with a turbo in the works for acura. They have hinted that they have 3 powerplants left to unveil which hopefully comes at the autoso in January. I'd imagine at least 400HP from that.

 

2.0T IS200 is about 200lbs lighter than IS350.
i am sure TLX SH-AWD with 2.0T will be lower in weight than TLX V6.

alternative is V6 Turbo that will make TLX too heavy and expensive. V6 turbo is too much for FWD platform. Acura need engine that it can share across the lineup.

 

^^ I am not sure if I could ever drive a manual in Europe with the gear selector to my left....That must take some serious getting used to?!?! I can't even have my g/f sleep on the left side of the bed, that is how non-ambidextrous I am!

 

The only country in Europe with gear selector on right is UK... oh and Ireland

 

It literally took me about 43 seconds to figure out how to drive a RHD car with a manual transmission. It seems super weird, but in reality, it is no different.

The only issue I had was coming to terms with the fact that the blinker and the windshield washer thingies are on opposite sides of the steering wheel. After a day or so, you start getting pretty used to it though.

 

While the 2.0L Type R engine puts down good numbers on paper, it must have some really bad turbo lag if it is only hitting 0-60 in 5.7seconds. I guess it's kind of to be expected if you're cranking out that much power from just a 2.0L engine.

I agree that the Type R engine would be a horrendous idea for the TLX. The TLX, even in Type S form, isn't the kind of car you expect to be driving above 5000rpm all the time. Like the 3G TL-S, it's still supposed to be a classy car, not an all out sports car. It needs that down low grunt too, to be able to move such a sizeable vehicle.

I kind of have to disagree with you on the "power isn't everything" comment. While yes, the NSX, or even the TL-S (amongst many others) perform admirably around the track, the majority of buyers will never see the track. People are using such cars as daily drivers (besides the NSX), so while it is fun to take on/off ramps at high speeds, I'd say having decent HP numbers is a bit more important in such regard. Don't get me wrong- I don't want Honda to lose it's handling capabilities, but HP numbers is what often helps sell performance vehicles. Everyone bench races such cars, competing against other comparable cars, and even sprint against competitors on the roads.

I think it was the lack of power that seriously hurt NSX sales numbers later in its life. It was a beauty to look at, it was comfortable, it handled and stopped like crazy, but it didn't have that "OMG Supercar" status, with only 290hp. Sales figures show that people weren't into buying such a car in the early 2000s.

 

i highly disagree. a good majority of car buyers have zero clue how much horsepower nor care about how much horsepower the car actually has. youre speaking for enthusiasts which make up a very small number of car buyers. if it was all about horsepower then the GS350 wouldnt be the go to generic lux sport sedan.

 

You can't deny the laws of physics. The TLX is a bigger car than a Civic & a 306CHP turbo I4 too little to move it quickly. Car needs an AWD turbo V6 with a lot of torque to compete with the better cars in the sport sedan segment.

Having the fastest FWD is of IMHO is of no value in this segment. Both FWD & I4 are thought of as economy entry level economy versions of the brands by their target market. You still need some performance & high performance versions to fill out the line.

 

Obviously HP isn't top priority to every car buyer, however having "halo" trim levels gets folks in the door. Look at the Charger - consumers can choose from V6, 2 V8 options, and then the INSANE Hellcat. How many Hellcats have sold? I'm sure no where near the number of V6 models, but that's how you get them in the door. Same with the 3 series, I see way more *28 versions with the 4 banger than the 6 turbo or v8 variants. Keeping things simple is fine for Honda, but Acura needs to kick it up or they'll find themselves hanging out with Pontiac and Oldsmobile...

 

I wonder if Acura has calculated how many more TLX Type S models it would sell if the car hits 0-60 in 4.5 versus 5.1 or so? I'd guess no, because the difference wouldn't justify spending money to even do the research. As much as we enthusiasts on this board would like to see a Type S with 400 hp, 300-350 would probably be just fine for 90+% of potential buyers, assuming the car is otherwise well-executed and designed.

 

This Civic has beaten Golf R in various European tests. Civic is handicapped by 6MT. with DCT transmission and aeroydnamice Sedan shape TLX will have better performance than Civic Type R.

Look at Golf R performance in US.
2015 Subaru WRX STI vs 2015 Volkswagen Golf R

 

Agreed. Just look at how may real IS-F (not the F-Sport) you see, that is the only real High HP IS and I see maybe a handful a year.

 

That's because there was limited production of them, and they were the price of a new M3 when they came out. Lexus knew they weren't going to sell many.

I don't think Acura has to go the way of the IS-F (with a high revving V8, etc) But boosting a low compression V6 isn't exactly rocket science these days. Honda is already boosting I4 cars.

Although, if they do boost a V6 for a Type S variant, I bet it will only come as an AWD model.

 

I don't see any Type S variants that are not AWD in Acura's future, except possibly on the ILX.

 

If Acura is going to continue to Market the TLX as some sort of thrilling driving machine they are going to have to step their game up. RWD and 300+ HP. Infiniti will also have a 300 HP Q50 Turbo that will be faster than the current 3.7 V6. Acura is being left behind. Also the 2006 IS350 was the fastest one to ever come out. On Clublexus Stock 06 350s were getting clocked running 4.6 0 to 60 times. 5.7 is not cutting it.

 

I actually don't see any non-SH-AWD TLX's or RLX's in Acura's future at all, probably starting with 2018 or 2019. Keep in mind they already axed the FWD variants (V6) in Canada. It won't be long before they axe them in the USA too.

 

Not sure I agree with that as much as I think it should happen. Then need a low entry price point so I4 FWD I think will remain, I do see them maybe going to all V6 as SH-AWD and maybe ditching the base V6 and then offering and Advance I4 FWD.

 

CIVIC Si street weight 3100lbs Prototype was stripped weight unknown.

TLX street weight stripped I4 3483lb V6 + 100lbs. Most will be heavier due to equipment in upgrade packages.

Aero dynamics unknown. Honda plays games with Drag by only presenting the numbers as percentages of the prior numbers. Not knowing the true base leaves no area for comparison CIVIC to TLX.

So I still maintain the I4 is a loser in a TLX performance version when it has a V6 available. The Ring numbers are also misleading since its a handling course not a pure power course. Lighter smaller cars can do very well there against larger more powerful cars.

Watch Miatas eat up Corvettes on a tight track but get their lunch eaten on a more open track during Track Days.

This is one of the main reasons Car & Driver choose the 4.1 mile VIR (Virginia International Raceway) for Lightning Laps. Its more representative of typical driving conditions than a short technical track which is like a Moonshine run through Carolina back country roads.

BTW the VW & Subaru weigh 3,367lb & 3,384lb, cost $40K & get crappy gas mileage. Don't think to many people will be spending $50K for an I4 TLX.

 

agreed, the fact the RLX (Acura's flagship) and a base TLX V6 which is $20k cheaper share the exact same motor just doesn't make any sense.

 

yeah but what if the pedals were also reversed?

accelerator > brake > clutch

 

Turbo 4 cylinder in Lexus cost $3k less than V6 3.5 so why you think turbo Honda will be expensive than V6?
Look at BMW or Audi V6 turbo on average 250lbs heavier than 4 cylinder.
Civic type R is inhibited by 6MT and FWD. It got 26mpg in tests.
With DCT and Sh-AWD traction TLX will achieve far better results. weight difference does not matter when you have 295 ft-lb of low end torque. It need proper tires.

 

About a year ago (I think), Acura announced that it was moving toward AWD generally, but I agree the I4 TLX with FWD will probably remain in the lineup for the foreseeable future. AWD would be a good way to differentiate Acura from Honda, and apparently the new Civic has a rear subframe that can accommodate AWD, probably for the next ILX.

On the RHD issue in this thread: I've spent a fair amount of time with MT in RHD cars, and it's been fine, but I'd find it easier if the shift pattern were a mirror image, so that going up through the gears would be moving away from my body.

 

nailed it...I just laugh at their current commercial's...

 

 

So you want it to compete with the bottom end secretary BMW & Audi. Expect it will lose that on a simple BMW/AUDI logo vs a TLX logo. People buying 320/328/428 - A3 are buying image,halo effect & the thingy on the hood - not performance.

Your are talking performance & a performance buyer is not looking at the bottom end of the MB, BMW or Audi lineup. Lexus, Infinity, Cadillac & Lincoln have already broken the code & are delivering or about to deliver real performance cars to run against the 340/440. A I4 with 295ftlbs of torque in a 3500lb car will not be competitive against what you want it to run against.

My car will get obsoleted this summer with the MMC for the 4 series. That said its 3635lbs 342BHP 335ftlbs 0-60@4.4 seconds 1/4@13.0 seconds & 31mpg@72mph.

The new 2017 440 equivalent to my car will have 360hp and 369 lb-ft. The same MPPK/MPE package will be available on the 340 later this year. BMW realizes the wolves are at the door & is stepping up its game to stay competitive.

A performance I4 TLX is a non starter & a V6 TURBO would still have a steep hill to climb.

Personally if I was doing the market planning for Acura I would drive it (no pun intended) toward its strengths both real & imagined. Its a solid all round good car with good looks (add exhaust finishers) & perceived great reliability.

 

As much as I would love to see a Type S version, I'm not really holding my breath for it. I don't work for Acura or have any insider information, but it seems like that's not really the direction they are heading. At best, I would guess maybe we'll see an A-SPEC version with some ground effects and maybe some different wheels.

 

is Audi S3 compete with lower end interms of performance?. how about RS3? thats not here yet.
TLX V6 is already faster than those other low end cars with all season tires.
Yep and 267 ft-lb FWD TLX V6 3700lbs is as fast as 340i with all season tires 0-130mph. so why you think 295 ft-lb will be slower?
TLX V6 SH-AWD already gets 33mpg at 80mph with 4 people. look at Edmunds long term test. newer 4cylinder turbo will beat that figure. put summer perfomrance tires on TLX V6 and its already very competitive.
how many 440 will they sell? BMW sells are collapsing. for TLX its better to put the 377bhp RLX system with 7DCT for higher end like in 50K vehicle.




there is always highbrid route. this what Chinese have told the car makers.

If i am doing Acura planning. it will introduce two more SUVs. One higher end than MDX and one lower end than RDX. The days of sitting low to the ground is coming to an end for daily driving. for performance there is always NSXs and baby NSXs.

 

It's interesting that many of us get all hung up on the marketing of the product (which is just that - it's MARKETING) and overlook the reality of the actual product which - is pretty much just as you described.

Frankly if you want to sell it at a price point in the upper 30's and lower 40's you need to market the car against Audi/BMW/Lexus/Etc., but the reality is I think they would love to target the Accord buyers who are making more money and would like to bump up a notch on the luxury scale. They sell a ton of Accords and a *well differentiated* Accord+ should sell like hotcakes at the right price (entry level luxury) which is exactly what the TLX is trying to do!

Now they just need to work on making it a bit more upscale - make it OBVIOUSLY better than the Accord (like Lexus does compared to the Camry) and the sales numbers will climb.

IMO, look at what they do, not what they say, for clues to the direction of the company.

 

SSFTSX, a turbo I4 is not going to sell as a 'performance' model. It just won't. It will sell if that's the base TLX, but they are going to need higher displacement, like 2.3 or 2.4L, not a 2.0L.

 

Over & OUT

 

"If you want to run a V6 you are now competing with my 6 cylinder. All 100% of the next level up luxury's will thump the TLX V6 as it stands in the 2016MY."

They are next level up for a reason. $$$$

A 340i similarly equipped as a TLX Tech SH-AWD is almost $18k CAD more money. That's a lot. Of course it's a lot faster too, but your alternative is the slow 328i. BMW makes nothing in between, which is why Acura Canada is doing better in a relative sense than Acura USA.

 

Actually they do is a M235 a C&D top 10. Less money than a 435 with a similar performance envelope. About $49K The 228 also performs OK. For $38K it came in 2nd in the 3 German car comparo.

That said the new 1 series should be a sub $30K car & will fill the gap.

That German cars are expensive has been beat to death here. That's why they are luxury brands as opposed to a bang for the buck one.

That said in model year 2015 they sold 140,000+ 3/4’s about 1,000 less than last year & even knocked out 44,000 5’s. There are a lot of other manfactures that would give their eye teeth to move that many premium priced cars.

I expect you can get a Chevy in the $20/30 range that has pretty much the same load of goodies the more expensive cars do. Electronics are dirt cheap & make nice features for a manufacturer to build in. Hey you can get a Mustang for under $30 grand that will whack a whole bunch of cars.

My grandsons car has a ton of goodies including a 348HP motor 6MT & we negotiated a chunk off the $30,000 MSRP & got $0 down & 0% for 5 years. That's under $440 a month OTD.

There is an old saying. Kid goes into a speed shop & says "I want to make my car very fast" Counterman says "How much money do you have?"

They cost more because they are higher performance cars & are considered by some to be luxury cars. A luxury can be loosely defined as something you don’t really need that is expensive.

Look at SSFTSX ultimate Acura the RLX its $60,000 & they only sold 2195 for the whole year. About the number of 4 series sales for the first two weeks in December. Don't think there is much more to say on price.

 

Not necessary. see tremendous success of $70K XC90 in the world.
compared that to big discounts on BMW X5. it is not about I4 or I6.
how do you know TLX with 2.0T will have lesser performance than BMW Six?.
that V6 is priced lower than 328i for similar equiped. I am not going into so called $10k discounts on BMW . why on earth Honda will follow this big discount philosphy so that it wasted all R&D money on V6 turbo. so that it has to give discounts to sell the inventory.


I will not even go there because its a bogus claim. MT/C&D has tested the 340 & the TLX could not keep up if dropped it off the roof.

It depend on tires and weight. TLX is short of torque. 2.0T will give it 15% more torque for proper launch.

TLX FWD V6. I can bet on that with 2.0T this TLX will be under 13 seconds for quarter mile.

 

Again what is monthly lease on RLX hybrid?.how much is the discount?
it is simply not avilable in color and choices. there is no sport package for it. no adjustable suspension.

you can buy BMW 750Li with exe and sport package with 11k miles for asking $56k. the kind of stupid economics that Germany purse i will simply not but there unreliable junk. diesel gate is the most obvious.
2013 BMW 7-Series 750Li SKUDE22067 BMW 7-Series 750Li Sedan

 

I truncated your post a little here, but what I'm getting at is that cars like the M235 don't satisfy that entry premium buyer. They satisfy performance enthusiasts. The interior is downright spartan for the price (because you're paying for the performance) and you barely get any features unless you make it even more expensive. My point is really that the 340i and the C400 are not cars the TLX is competing against. It's competing against the 328i and the 2.0T A4, and in that category, it just offers more for less money. Stronger competition for the TLX is the Q50, the IS (in all forms) and the Genesis. Right now Acura is a little down on power compared to those 3 cars which is something they hopefully address for the MMC.

I wonder how well the 1-series will do? My guess is it'll do well in Canada and flop in the USA.

 

Agree, First point just stuck it in because SSFTSX said his TLX V6 example (he drives a TSX) would run with a 340 & the TURBO 14 would yada yada......... It was performance competition not price.

2nd point is the further you go up into the lux class the less price sensitive the buyers become. It becomes more about buying what you like & less about maximizing every dollar. 90% of the 340 buyers, unless they are spending their mortgage money, could buy a 328 but choose to go with the more expensive 340. One interesting factoid is used cars have the highest repossession rate while more expensive cars has a better experience overall.

Same thing develops over on the BMW board between 328/428 & 340/435 posters. At the end of the day when the whole issue is fully wrung out the 328 guy will say, "but I saved X$" & the 35/40 poster will say "so what".

Same can be said about the TLX & the Honda Accord. In actuality unless you need AWD very little separates them. The V6 Accord will outperform the I4 & run with the V6 TLX. Same as above just a different price scale.

Depends how they package the 1'r

 

It would be nice if they could get the AWD version of the TLX back to the 0-60 level of the 6MT TL AWD -- 5.2. I know a half second isn't a big deal on the street or in everyday driving, but it would give Acura some additional buyers, I think. Maybe that is where a Type S comes in.

 

Wonder why that is. In all cases the BMW AWD are quicker than the RWD by a considerable, to a performance buyer, margin. Enough so that guys who would never have bought an AWD are now doing so.

 

Think its time to quit yet?

 

BMW has US factory. Volvo does not. Volvo is much smaller brand but newer XC90 is well received despite its high price and short supply.

how about summer performance tires plus 15% more low end torque.

These German auto companies profits are mostly fake. i gave you diesel gate example. Just look at BMW stocks how it is behaving. Chinese are finally waking up to unreliable Germanic crap. Honda is on the roll.
I dont see those on dealer lots unless special ordered. Honda just does not provide those sport packages with lighter rims and summer performance tires.