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There is nothing confusing at all about the concepts.
Acura's marketing event and Nissan's marketing event where after the same result, although Acura's ploy was much more deceiving. The Nissan event here at least used a production Maxima and some current models from the competition. Acura used a Prototype 4G (6MT), a two year old used Audi S4 and other models that where due for major updates the next year.
The journalists that attended the Acura event even commented in most of their articles that they knew this wasn't a normal event and insinuated that it was staged but it gave them a chance to drive the prototype 4G (6MT).
I know you have a very strong bias towards the 4G (6MT) being you owned one but this was not just about showing SHAWD capabilities as they could have done this the year before with 2009 4G (AT) against the current competition. Acura simple knew that staging a event where they could control the environment (Vehicles, Track, Media, etc) they could use it for marketing and IMO very smart ploy by Honda/Acura.
Just Google the event and look at all the comments from people about how it was staged.
What I meant to say is that you are confusing the point that Acura tried to prove about the TL handling prowess with a magazine car comparo which take the car as a whole (and open to a lot of subjectivity) when you mentioned the test where "the TL ended last".
I do not need to google that event....I can (and I did) read the journalist articles about it and I do not remember anybody complaining about being deceived nor I read anywhere that Acura was shopping for "2 years old" used cars..obviously it was staged, it was a marketing event.
I guess you jumped to the conclusion that the Audi S4 was "used" because it was a 2008 model year (so were the 335i and the G37)...but guess what, the Acura event took place in the summer of 2008 (all articles about it are dated September 2008) even before the automatic only 2009 TL arrived in the Acura showrooms..mystery resolved, no used cars....
The 6MT TL SH-AWD have a slightly different suspension and steering tuning compared to the AT version it is not only a matter of gearbox differences so it has an even sharper focus on handling which it was the entire point of the exercise...
I suspect you may be the one with a slight anti TL (or anti Acura) bias here
3 links to that event from Car and Driver, Motortrend and Edmunds ...read the dates..and the content of the articles.
If anything all the journalists were fairly impressed.
Going back on topic, is too early to judge the Nissan marketing piece...there is a big (even if is written in small font) disclaimer in that video, they were comparing cars at a similar price point which means that probably the Germans are stripped of any suspension upgrade and equipped with small wheels....very different from the cars manufacturers send to magazines for testing, often loaded to the hilt and definitely not stripper trims.
We have to wait the traditional media tests to really confirm the new Maxima handling chops (as we can see in the video no journalist was present at the event to test these cars on the same track anyway), as for the 4G TL, these tests confirmed the point Acura was trying to make, the manual 4G TL was a quick and sharp handler.
4360 cars Q40 + Q50 is soft. When the TL was actually selling well 5500 to 6000 a month was the norm. When it fell to 4,000 cars a month help was on the way with the 4G.
Unfortunately, the Cavalry got ambushed on the way in & 4,000 units would have looked good. Even Buicks two cars in the price range, as long as we are combining, are selling over 5,000 a month.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 05-22-2015 at 10:56 PM.
4360 cars Q40 + Q50 is soft. When the TL was actually selling well 5500 to 6000 a month was the norm. When it fell to 4,000 cars a month help was on the way with the 4G.
Unfortunately, the Cavalry got ambushed on the way in & 4,000 units would have looked good. Even Buicks two cars in the price range, as long as we are combining, are selling over 5,000 a month.
I do not agree....the Q40+Q50 combo is only behind the eternal bestseller in the segment (the BMW 3/4 Series) with 3 body styles and a gazillion of engine choices and the MB C Class (2 body style, 2 engine choices)...I would nto call it a sale blockbuster but not that bad either.
Buick?? Are you combining the Regal and the LaCrosse?? Totally different demographics, segments and sizes not to mention heavy reliance on fleet/rental sales.
Q40 and Q50 are identical in size, layout, segment and engine.....and no frugal 4 banger option.
Interesting list the Q-40 & Q-50 are not combined since Nissan chose to report them separately.
#39 BMW 3/4
#60 MB C
#84 Toyota Avalon
#89 BMW 5
#96 Lexus IS
#100 MB E
#101 Acura TLX
#102 Buick LaCrosse
#103 Infiniti Q50
#114 Hyundai Genesis
#118 Audi A3
#125 Nissan Maxima
#161 Infiniti Q40/G
Just pulled out some of the usual suspects plus the 5 & E which are more expensive but still are out selling the Q-50. Point being people with Q-50 money are going else ware.
Since 90% plus of the 5 series are 528. Are you saying the Q50 needs to drop 90 horsepower to increase sales? Why would YOU rather own a 528I as opposed to a Q50? You stated you would not buy a TLX.
90% plus is may be high, could easily be more the 75%. Still most of the 3 series seem to have Thomas Edison head lights so are these people with 328 and 528 models buying wanna be cars. Let's face it that works sales wise but so what? Come track day or highway these are going to get beat by a Maxima SR.
Interesting list the Q-40 & Q-50 are not combined since Nissan chose to report them separately.
#39 BMW 3/4
#60 MB C
#84 Toyota Avalon
#89 BMW 5
#96 Lexus IS
#100 MB E
#101 Acura TLX
#102 Buick LaCrosse
#103 Infiniti Q50
#114 Hyundai Genesis
#118 Audi A3
#125 Nissan Maxima
#161 Infiniti Q40/G
Just pulled out some of the usual suspects plus the 5 & E which are more expensive but still are out selling the Q-50. Point being people with Q-50 money are going else ware.
The Q40+Q50 combo is only behind the 3 Series and the MC C Class in the segment, period. They even beat the Lexus IS.
Nissan can decide to list them combined or separated it does not really matter like BMW deciding to list the 3 Series and 4 combined. The Q40 and Q50 are identical in size, body style, engine and segment....the Q40 act as an entry level Q50 (statement made by an Infiniti salesman too)....I do not believe there is any other manufacturer with such overlapped specific model offering.
The 5 Series and E Class belong to a different segment so the comparison to the Q50 is questionable..the Chrysler 300 crush in sales the BMW 2 Series...are you suggesting that people with 2 Series money prefer the 300??
The addition of a 4 cylinder turbo to the Q50 would boost sales significantly, it is already available on the Q50 (it is a Mercedes sourced engine) on some international markets (Europe for example)
Since 90% plus of the 5 series are 528. Are you saying the Q50 needs to drop 90 horsepower to increase sales? Why would YOU rather own a 528I as opposed to a Q50? You stated you would not buy a TLX.
Yes the addition of a 4 cylinder turbo engine would help boost the sales of the Q50..I would not own a 528 even if you offer me money to take it but other people think differently.
This reminds me of the marketing ploy Honda did back in 2010 when Honda hosted a similar test at their testing facility.
They showcased their Pre-Production 2010 TL SH-AWD (6MT) and put it up against older models (One being a two year old Audi S4). Honda employees set up the track, vehicles and then invited several media reps (C&D, R&T, etc etc) but they weren't allowed to bring their own test equipment etc.
they could only race around the track and no other testing....Well guess who won??
The funny thing is a few months later the same journalists tested the same cars but included the new S4 and the TL ended up last I believe.
Like you said, take it with a grain of salt as its just marketing material and all manufactures do it.
Hate to burst your Teutono-bubble, but Automobile subsequently tested the S4 and TL AWD against each other. They were exactly .1 seconds apart on a road course that the magazine admitted favored the extra HP of the S4. But somehow, amazingly, the TL carried more speed through every single corner than the wundercar S4.
Hey, my personal Teutonic bubble is intact. Just a few things. Would never buy a 320, 3/428 of any description because they are not performance cars but are nice DD's. Point is you are not going to see any of these cars at a track day because if the people who bought them were interested in track days they would have bought something else for the same money like an M235. Would never buy a 5 series because they are too big.
If through some strange happenstance I had to get one it would be an M5. Just stuck the 5 & E in the list because even in WannaB small engine forum although they out price the TLX they still sell better. I realize they are more aligned with the RLX pricing but its doesn't sell so its not a factor. It may be the $50K ceiling.
As for the spread of 28/35/40/M in the 5 series I personally have no idea because I have never seen a breakout of the numbers. Guess you have more info on it.
Not a fan of Audi but would buy an MB. Had an E class when I lived in England, was a nice car.
The 435 will do 0-60 in the low 4 second range quarter mile in the high 12's & has a real time suspension with performance brakes. Would be more than happy to run any TL, TLX or Maxima at VIR where our club runs its drivers school & track days.
Same goes for my 135is even though it just has the normal heavy duty suspension. Was R&T that said "The 135is is our undisputed favorite BMW of the moment". So with 4.6 second time it would be pretty formidable against the TL, Maxima pair.
Nothing against either the TL or Maxima but like most of the lower end Teutons they are nice cars but just not performance cars regardless of the adds.
saturno_v I know you want to disregard that Infiniti carries the G37 & Q50 as separate lines because it does not fit your template of combining them to get better than marginal sales for the Q50. Its the internet you can do anything you want, but 4300 cars a month combined is not exactly burning up the sales charts.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 05-24-2015 at 02:35 AM.
saturno_v I know you want to disregard that Infiniti carries the G37 & Q50 as separate lines because it does not fit your template of combining them to get better than marginal sales for the Q50. Its the internet you can do anything you want, but 4300 cars a month combined is not exactly burning up the sales charts.
Bear you point is exactly...pointless...what how Infiniti count sales of its models has to do with anything?? Exactly zilch...but I understand if you want to grasp at straws...you are welcome.
I do not have any "template"...the Q40 and Q50 are exactly, perfectly, identically overlapped segment wise....in what sandbox you think the Q40 plays?? Honda Accord and Toyota Camry?? Ford Fiesta?? Where you think it takes customers from??
I said already myself that the Q40+Q50 combo is not a blockbuster sales success, thank you for stating the obvious....but is not a poor seller in the segment either....it is middle of the pack or just a hair better, the only models in the segment doing better (first 4 months of 2015) are the 3/4 Series and the C CLass.....but feel free to argue with numbers....
Just one final point before I leave this thread so it does not get shut down for being circular.
Its about WannaB's & the Teutonic mystique. Acura, Infiniti, Nissan & Cadillac et al feature the Germans in their adds almost as much as their own products. The Germans just feature there own brand.
The brands in question also all state that they bench mark the Germans. So the question remains, "who are the true WannaB?"
People buying small engined Teutons or the car companies spending millions of dollars of development & advertising money trying to emulate them? Remember the 4G we are going to the first Tier with the most powerful Acura ever campaign?
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 05-24-2015 at 11:02 AM.
Kevin, you need to lay off the moonshine and start taking vitamins. If you really have no interest in discussing the cars tested here then go back to calling the AM radio stations with your incoherent repetitious ramblings.
Let's go to line 4 it's 73 year old Kevin from Raleigh.
Would have been interesting to see how Acura would have performed with 245 tires on 8 inch rims rather than the P-AWS. Basically could have been closer. Similar HP, transmissions maybe close enough. Could see the P-AWS being dropped in the future.
I find all car tests interesting regardless of make. That said in regard to independent testing as opposed to company sponsored ones, Could have been, should have been, only if. Unfortunately what is is. As soon as you start modifications all bets are off.
With a $500 JB4 the lowly 328 is a 13 second 106mph car over the quarter mile. 0-60 in 4.9
Bad news is there is not much available in the marketplace for some cars.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 05-24-2015 at 01:01 PM.
Hate to burst your Teutono-bubble, but Automobile subsequently tested the S4 and TL AWD against each other. They were exactly .1 seconds apart on a road course that the magazine admitted favored the extra HP of the S4. But somehow, amazingly, the TL carried more speed through every single corner than the wundercar S4.
You 4G guys sure crack me up as you get so bent out of shape over this stuff.
The time was actually .4 seconds apart and was probably one of the closest tests ever for those vehicles. I see you conveniently left out other tests where the S4 beat the 4G on other tracks by over a second+ (which is a big gap in racing).
While the SHAWD system is a great system you seem to forget the tires are a HUGE factor. Every article even mentions that....Do you ever think why you never saw the 4G TL in many comparo tests after the MMC and that's when they dropped the HPT package?? The 4G would get slaughtered out there even with SHAWD with its standard tires against a S4.
You do bring up a good point with this article though. Why didn't Honda wait to test the 4G TL (6MT) against this new S4. The test would have shown that it can stay close to some of the best in the market as long as you have the best tires in the market on your 4G, BUT, it still lost by .4 seconds and losing no matter how you lose wouldn't have helped Honda with marketing.
Now you can probably see why they tested their prototype to vehicles two years older....Winning by 2 seconds+ to older vehicles is way better for marketing against higher nameplates than losing to the current model nameplates no matter how close you may think it is.
You 4G guys sure crack me up as you get so bent out of shape over this stuff.
The time was actually .4 seconds apart and was probably one of the closest tests ever for those vehicles. I see you conveniently left out other tests where the S4 beat the 4G on other tracks by over a second+ (which is a big gap in racing).
While the SHAWD system is a great system you seem to forget the tires are a HUGE factor. Every article even mentions that....Do you ever think why you never saw the 4G TL in many comparo tests after the MMC and that's when they dropped the HPT package?? The 4G would get slaughtered out there even with SHAWD with its standard tires against a S4.
You do bring up a good point with this article though. Why didn't Honda wait to test the 4G TL (6MT) against this new S4. The test would have shown that it can stay close to some of the best in the market as long as you have the best tires in the market on your 4G, BUT, it still lost by .4 seconds and losing no matter how you lose wouldn't have helped Honda with marketing.
Now you can probably see why they tested their prototype to vehicles two years older....Winning by 2 seconds+ to older vehicles is way better for marketing against higher nameplates than losing to the current model nameplates no matter how close you may think it is.
....and you have basic reading comprehension issues or you do not pay attention....at the time of the Acura event (summer 2008) the car tested (S4, 335, G37) were not 2 years old...they were current, repeat with me...they were current....that said, losing by 0.4 to a car lighter and with more power (not to mention a supercharged engine) it was indeed an excellent result.
I think it is the "anti 4G TL at all cost" mindset that bend things out of shape...
I agree that the decision of dropping the HPT from the TL for the 2012 model refresh on the part of Acura was idiotic...as many decisions by this company lately...
What I meant to say is that you are confusing the point that Acura tried to prove about the TL handling prowess with a magazine car comparo which take the car as a whole (and open to a lot of subjectivity) when you mentioned the test where "the TL ended last".
I do not need to google that event....I can (and I did) read the journalist articles about it and I do not remember anybody complaining about being deceived nor I read anywhere that Acura was shopping for "2 years old" used cars..obviously it was staged, it was a marketing event.
I guess you jumped to the conclusion that the Audi S4 was "used" because it was a 2008 model year (so were the 335i and the G37)...but guess what, the Acura event took place in the summer of 2008 (all articles about it are dated September 2008) even before the automatic only 2009 TL arrived in the Acura showrooms..mystery resolved, no used cars....
The 6MT TL SH-AWD have a slightly different suspension and steering tuning compared to the AT version it is not only a matter of gearbox differences so it has an even sharper focus on handling which it was the entire point of the exercise...
I suspect you may be the one with a slight anti TL (or anti Acura) bias here
I saw those articles years ago and the Edmunds one is the one of many others I was referring to that they knew this wasn't a fair comparison but they went for the chance to drive the prototype.
I think everyone here knows the 4G (6MT) was basically a Type-S version with different suspension upgrades, but again if you're saying it was to show off the 6MT upgrades then why not compare it to the 4G SHAWD (AT) with the HPT package. This would have gave more credibility to Honda but the marketing punch wouldn't have been the same, therefore the older luxury models came into play in order to stage the event similar to this Nissan video.
I was just using facts and common sense when talking about the used vehicles (S4). Obviously magazines dont hold events and post in the same month. You're obviously not aware that production ended on the (B7) S4 in early spring when it was discontinued and the chances of Audi having one in their press fleet would be slim.......AND do you really think other manufactures would give their cars to Honda Techs for a Honda staged event?? If anything these vehicles used where probably purchased for reverse engineering reasons like most manufactures R&D divisions do.
Im not sure why you would think im Anti TL being I almost purchased the (6MT) back in 2010. I appreciate the 4G TL for what it is and nothing more, nothing less. I only stated that you obviously have a strong bias from what I have seen in the past from your posts in the 4G section (And nothing wrong with having a bias towards your personal vehicle). People here probably don't know you as well as what I have seen from your posts over the years in the 4G section.
Remember the thread you started years ago trying to convince everyone that your 4G was the same or better than a Porsche Panamera and that you saved $40 or 50 grand in the process by buying your TL
....and you have basic reading comprehension issues or you do not pay attention....at the time of the Acura event (summer 2008) the car tested (S4, 335, G37) were not 2 years old...they were current, repeat with me...they were current....that said, losing by 0.4 to a car lighter and with more power (not to mention a supercharged engine) it was indeed an excellent result.
Yes I understand they where 2008 vehicles tested in 2008 against a 2010 PROTOTYPE ACURA
Oy Veh, the strong bias mixed with the lack of common sense was never a strong suit was it.
That was then this is now. Maybe it will get all settled in the 2015 C&D Lightning Laps at VIR. So far in the 8 years of the LL no Acura has ever been run, have no idea why. Infiniti except for the G37 Coupe is a no show & only the Nissan GT-R's have shown up. They have done very well one placing near the top of the list, which might be expected for $165,000.
For those unaware of what it is the LL is, its a run what you brung, manufactures can bring any car with any options as long as they are available on the order form to all buyers, open test that's about overall performance.
The cars are run over the Grand Course about 4.2 miles with a significant uphill change of elevation on the back straight. A series of Pro & magazine drivers run each & every car over the course of the multi day time trial & the results are posted in the Oct/Nov issue of the magazine.
Cars are subdivide into run groups by price so you get the quickest overall & quickest in each of the price brackets.
Over the past 8 years & the 161 cars tested the Porsche 918 Spyder is the record holder doing the 4.2 miles in 2:43 & the Mazda MX-5 Miata is the anchor at 3:29
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 05-24-2015 at 04:05 PM.
I saw those articles years ago and the Edmunds one is the one of many others I was referring to that they knew this wasn't a fair comparison but they went for the chance to drive the prototype.
I think everyone here knows the 4G (6MT) was basically a Type-S version with different suspension upgrades, but again if you're saying it was to show off the 6MT upgrades then why not compare it to the 4G SHAWD (AT) with the HPT package. This would have gave more credibility to Honda but the marketing punch wouldn't have been the same, therefore the older luxury models came into play in order to stage the event similar to this Nissan video.
You are making assumptions...."they knew" ....who knew? I do not recall anybody calling the comparison "unfair".....you keep mentioning a "prototype" like the car they tested had some special secret component like a turbo, experimental technology or stuff like that......it was simply a manual TL which was eventually marketed the year after.
Since you mentioned Edmunds, I strongly suggest to read their manual TL full test and see what words they used to describe it...
I was just using facts and common sense when talking about the used vehicles (S4). Obviously magazines dont hold events and post in the same month. You're obviously not aware that production ended on the (B7) S4 in early spring when it was discontinued and the chances of Audi having one in their press fleet would be slim.......AND do you really think other manufactures would give their cars to Honda Techs for a Honda staged event?? If anything these vehicles used where probably purchased for reverse engineering reasons like most manufactures R&D divisions do.
I see the grasping at straws begins (or the attempt to climb a mirror covered in oil whatever terms you prefer)....you did start talking about "2 years old vehicles" until I caught you off guard.....Acura for their event put their hands on the the most recent S4 model it was possible to get let's leave it at that....
Im not sure why you would think im Anti TL being I almost purchased the (6MT) back in 2010. I appreciate the 4G TL for what it is and nothing more, nothing less. I only stated that you obviously have a strong bias from what I have seen in the past from your posts in the 4G section (And nothing wrong with having a bias towards your personal vehicle). People here probably don't know you as well as what I have seen from your posts over the years in the 4G section.
Remember the thread you started years ago trying to convince everyone that your 4G was the same or better than a Porsche Panamera and that you saved $40 or 50 grand in the process by buying your TL
That my friend is a very strong bias IMHO .
For being someone that almost did purchase a TL you definitely spent a lot of time trying to criticize the car on this forum......
I do not have a brand bias , actually I almost never owned 2 or more cars from the same brand nor I have a model bias.....the TL was simply a real bargain in the size and power class so I saw value in it and I did buy it....simple....now I moved on...nowadays I would not touch any current Acura cars with a ten foot pole......I noticed you still hold a grudge against the TL for matching many performance stats of the Panamera 3.6 (which was the only purpose of my post nothing more than that and your bringing it up confirms to me your reading comprehension issues) but you have to complain to Card and Driver not to me...
Yes I understand they where 2008 vehicles tested in 2008 against a 2010 PROTOTYPE ACURA
Oy Veh, the strong bias mixed with the lack of common sense was never a strong suit was it.
Read above I replied to you already about the"prototype"....sorry for catching you off guard with the Acura event timing and now the TL tested in that occasion was some special secret prototype....a 911 Carrera turbo with a TL body bolted on....I see....
Oh Saturno, you crack me up at times and there was a reason why many of us refered to you as the "Spin Doctor" back in the 4G Forum.
I like how you refer to me as making assumptions, yet you know for sure that the Prototype was exactly the same as the production model well over a year later. Prototype vehicles rarely stay exactly the same that far before production as there is usually changes to the suspention adjustments, etc....but hey, you are aparently part of the Honda R&D team so we should take what you say and roll with it.
Just Google the test we are talking about and you will see the responses out there about the test. I believe "Autospies" was one of a few that did an article about it if I remember correctly. Just stop sticking your head in the sand whenever your cornered and hope things go away.
I was talking about "2 Year old vehicles" because if you would use some common sense and accept that when the 2010 4G (6MT) was finally released (Production Model NOT Prototype), the test results would be invalid being the Infiniti had a major change, the S4 had a complete redesign and the BMW was updated, plus we wouldnt know what changes where made with the TL from Prototype to Production....you for some reason have a problem with accepting the truth or have zero common sense.
I just dont understand you fanatical 4G TL guys. You think your cars are comparable to vehicles like the 5 Series, Porsche Panamera's, etc but if someone compares the 4G to a Maxima, VW CC or even the New TLX, you guys loose your marbles and act like that is impossible.
Read above I replied to you already about the"prototype"....sorry for catching you off guard with the Acura event timing and now the TL tested in that occasion was some special secret prototype....a 911 Carrera turbo with a TL body bolted on....I see....
Once again, I like how your trying to spin things or tap dance around subjects by trying to make it sound like im assuming the Prototype was some secret crazy vehicle (That darn common sense thing again, eh).
I realise now you didnt know when the B7 (S4) was discontinued, so that obviously threw a wrench in your gameplan, but either way, if there is one thing i know Saturno is that you always have to have the last word (must be an Insecurity thing). So we will leave it at that as im sure the TLX crowd is tired of this crap and im sure you have a lot of spinning to do.
Does the Maxima even have a direct Honda competitor? It's kind of in a weird segment. I'd think the Altima competes with the Accord. The Maxima is sort of competing with things like the Toyota Avalon. It's the sporty alternative to the sedate Avalon.
It's sort of in the TLX price range, but I'd venture a guess that refinement isn't its strong point. Gotta wait for the reviews to see what they have to say about that.
You are right. There's no direct Honda competitor in US. I believe some large cars that compete in the same space are Chevy Impala, Dodge Charger, Toyota Avalon, Honda Legend (in non-US markets), etc.
Is deleting posts now part of thread management?? Should I save them in case of arbitrary deletion so I can re-post them?? I had couple of them in the afternoon that now have mysteriously disappeared...
Size wise, the Altima is more the TLX competitor, while the Maxima is more the TL competitor.
If you discount size, the Maxima competes with the 6-cylinder TL and TLX, as well as the Accord V6. The Altima is more comparable to the 4-cylinder TLX and Accords.
What doesn't necessarily come across in the comparison, though, is the both the Altima and Maxima lack the reputation for quality and reliability that Honda and Acura have. If quality and reliability is not high on one's shopping list, then cars like the Ford Fusion, Chevy Malibu, and Kia Optima would also be competitors, would it not?
The new Maxima on paper looks impressive, not sure I dig the new direction Nissan is going with the cattle catcher plow front end, but for $40K the car comes with pretty much everything one could want. I would say it is after the more young spirited Avalon crowd, although the Avalon is huge inside compared to Maxima.
Is deleting posts now part of thread management?? Should I save them in case of arbitrary deletion so I can re-post them?? I had couple of them in the afternoon that now have mysteriously disappeared...
Would you rather me arbitrarily ban you for not heeding my polite request to get back on topic?
Yes, several posts have been deleted. It was necessary to keep the thread on topic. You're very mistaken, if you believe you are being singled out. Feel free to PM me if you'd like to discuss further. Thanks.
p.s. You're more than welcome to start a thread in 4G and continue that discussion...where it belongs.
Size wise, the Altima is more the TLX competitor, while the Maxima is more the TL competitor.
If you discount size, the Maxima competes with the 6-cylinder TL and TLX, as well as the Accord V6. The Altima is more comparable to the 4-cylinder TLX and Accords.
What doesn't necessarily come across in the comparison, though, is the both the Altima and Maxima lack the reputation for quality and reliability that Honda and Acura have. If quality and reliability is not high on one's shopping list, then cars like the Ford Fusion, Chevy Malibu, and Kia Optima would also be competitors, would it not?
For me I look at the overall fit and finish of a car as well to consider it a "competitor". To that end, I don't think any Nissan or Honda directly competes with an Acura, Lexus or Infiniti even if the size and engines are roughly the same. I shopped an Accord in addition to my TLX, but sitting in both on the same day the fit and finish of the interiors are far apart IMO. Not that the Accord was bad, but the TLX was just that good. I shopped Audi and Lexus too - same difference in interior quality and amenities.
For that reason, I don't put the 4-cylinder Altima or Accord with the TLX. I think the TLX is in a class above. I think the price difference would support that too. The Maxima might be closer to the V6 TLX, but I suspect there is a difference in fit and finish, quality of materials, etc. I think Nissan would prefer that the Q50 be the competitor to the TLX.
But I agree with your last statement too - that not only quality of materials but expected reliability and long-term ownership is a factor that keeps Acura/Lexus/Infiniti in a class above others like Ford, Chevy, Hyundai and Kia.
^^^
I have to respectfully disagree with you Mike_TX. I'm not feeling the styling cues on the new Maxima. I'm sure it's a nice car but the styling is not great by any means, in my opinion.
I loved the previous gen Maxima.... This new one just has waaaaay too much going on (imo). It's like they took 10 different cars and smashed them into one.
05-22-2015, 03:38 AM
If anything these vehicles used where probably purchased for reverse engineering reasons like most manufactures R&D divisions do.
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