docboy

Okay, this time it's getting f*****g ridiculous.

As I've posted here on AZ before, I've been having the occasional issues w/the manual tranny and/or clutch: 3rd gear popping out occasionally (usually from 2nd-3rd shift) and also Reverse not engaging fulling occasionally (ie. I can see the rear view camera and the shifter is clearly in the R position; I release the clutch and give it gas, but the car is stuck in neutral only with the tach running). I've always view said issues as annoying, until now.

2 days ago, I pulled into a slight decline parking lot and dropped off my wife for her appointment (The car's front is facing a concrete barrier). I shift to reverse, release the clutch, and stepped on the gas. I turn my head back to check for traffic, and before I knew it, I was racing the engine, smelling a burnt smell, and BOOM!! The fricking car didn't engage reverse and the car rolled down and hit the concrete barrier. WTF??? :angryfire

I reshifted the car to R, was able to back out, and reparked. No major apparent bumper damage, but clearly a cracked front license plate frame and screw.

Needless to say I was pissed off and shooken up. My daughter was with me in the car, but thank God for her car seat. But what if there was no concrete barrier in front of the car? What if there was another car, or God forbid a person, or I'm up on in the mountains near a cliff/view point at rest stop?? Fallen off the cliff??? My wife heard a big "crash sound" and thought that 2 cars had crashed nearby.

A few weeks ago, the same fricking annoying R gear issue happened while I was doing a 3-point turn. The car was perpendicular to the road, and as I was trying to reverse the car so I can head on back to the direction of traffic, dam car wouldn't move! I drew traffic to a stop, had to reshift to R twice before moving on.

I took the car to the dealership I bought the car from the next day. Dealership fixed the front license frame and said the front bumper had no damage. But of course, the tech couldn't duplicate the problem. Tech tried to say it was driver's error and that I'm not shifting smoothly enough and that I was letting go of the clutch too fast. Tech also said I wasn't shifting properly at the right speeds, and that the TL's manual tranny/clutch is different from that of the earlier Acura's. Complete and utter BS!! What the hell does that have to do with the reverse not engaging??? Or only 3rd gear popping out???

I've had prior stick shift cars before, and they didn't suffer said issues. Service manager claims he also drove the car (no problems) and checked on the Acura tech hot line (no known issues). Tech said all the "fluids were fine" and that changing the transmission fluid is not indicated. Tech suggested the hill start sensor "acts funny sometimes", blah blah blah. WTF? I told the service manager I'll call Acura HQ and start a file. He gave me the number and said "go ahead."

Needless to say, I bought the TL b/c of Acura's good reliability record and it's 5 star crash ratings. To be honest, I feel like I got a POS American car, and I do not trust the TL's tranny. Not on my life, and definitely not for the safety of my wife and daughter. F**k, at this rate, I should have gotten an Audi if I had known I was going to have these issues.

So question:

If I call Acura Client Relations and start a file, and Acura refuses to do anything, will the file show up on car fax if I trade or sell the TL? What can Acura HQ do? Will carfax show that the vehicle had the front license frame repaired?

I don't think I should have to take a loss on the car if I decide to trade it in. In fact, I don't want to trade it in; I like a manual tranny, and I had always viewed this TL as a precursor to me getting a 997. But frankly this incidence has spooked my wife on the "un-necessary-ness" of a manual car, and is pissing me off to no end, as I do not trust the TL's tranny. If the TL didn't have a manual tranny, I would have gotten a A4 or 09 MDX/RDX instead, which I may now look into.

What the hell is going to happen next? Getting hit by incoming traffic b/c I can't back up in time??

The service manager at the dealership is refusing to do anything. Any ideas? Should I get the general manager involved? I paid nearly full MSRP when this car first came out, and frankly at this point, I feel I should get my money back

potmilkz

if you can video record the issue or atleast duplicate the problem and have it on video. i would say that you would have a chance with acura actually checking on the transmission.


i dont know if you know this.. but in every stick car, you have to throw it in first gear before you throw it in reverse

winstrolvtec

Doc, save yourself the stress and trouble and just go to you local autoparts or Walmart or something and get the necessary amount of AC Delco synchromesh transmission fluid. Make sure it is also the friction modified, semi-synthetic version. It is the same as the GM synchromesh that everyone raves about and is something like half the price. Take it to a reputable local mechanic and have them do the swap or consider doing it yourself.

Here is a link with a pic so you know exactly what to get: http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2314764

If you are concerned about warranty issues, don't be, if it doesn't fix anything or help to a satisfactory degree, just swap OEM fluid back in and follow through with the dealer, another dealer, or corporate.

Just do it, consider making no posts or comments about the change and it's results, good or bad because I have heard it could come back to bite you in the ass, where you could be denied warranty coverage if they could identify you based on info from here, that is if dealer members (etc) follow this website. Now if your issue just all of sudden resolves itself and you feel the need to share, I am sure we would all like to hear about it.

I am speaking mostly in terms of the 2nd-3rd "pop out" and if that happens in reverse as well. As far as being what can be described as locked out of reverse, (as mentioned) it's pretty normal and you need to run the tranny through a lower gear to sort of unlock it, particularly 1st. It's especially common on inclines or declines so it may or may not be related to the pop out issue.

potmilkz

ive read his post..no where does it state that he put it in first gear from neutral to reverse.. he just went straight from neutral to reverse...

doc, do you feel like gears are grinding when you put it into reverse from neutral position?

i know you had previously had stick experiences but putting it into a gear to unlock the reverse is the correct way to put car in reverse..

JM2010 SH-AWD

Doc, sorry to hear about your continued issues. You might try this if you haven't already - I have an older Nissan Z that is balky going into reverse - has been from day one. I find that if I shift from the forward gear into neutral, let the clutch out, then shift into reverse it usually goes just fine. If that doesn't do it, I shift into a forward gear then the reverse gear (as some here have mentioned) and that always does the trick. Don't know why or what, but it works every time. My friend's Z from the same year does the exact same thing and is cured exactly the same way.

So far, my TL MT hasn't exhibited this tendency.

Good luck.

Edward'TLS

I wouldn't recommend changing to any different fluid, especially done outside the dealerships. Even if the dealership has identified the problem, the last thing you want is to have them using the excuse that the problem is caused by the owner using aftermarket fluid.

docboy

^I don't feel the gears are grinding in R from neutral. When the problem happens, it's as if the gear is stuck in neutral, while the shifter is clearly in R position and I can see the rear view camera.

My R gear has gotten stuck by during the following:
1) I shift directly to R from neutral while the car is at a standstill (ie. either I'm idling and not moving; or when the car has been parked (ie. I start the car, push in the clutch, row the gears quickly from 1-2-3-4-5-6, and then shift to R)
2) I'm moving forward and slowing down to a halt (ie. in 2nd or 3rd gear), brake, shift to neutral and come to a halt, then to R

In all incidences, prior to shifting to R, the is not moving.

docboy

http://www.jeeppatriot.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22218

One google search showed tranny issues some Jeep Patriot owners are having with the R gear not engaging (as I am experiencing) and one with a unusual problem R on an incline. I thought that manual transmissions were more reliable than automatics; guess I thought wrong.

BLEXV6

My TSX sometimes has issues with the 3rd gear engaging. I wonder if it is the same problem?

winstrolvtec

I don't disagree but no matter what you run the risk of the dealer using the excuse that it is driver error or misuse anyway, even though it doesn't appear to be. In the OP's case, I believe that they have already done that and is why I am a little reluctant to think they that he will get much done to resolve the issues by way of the dealer, or that one in particular.

Not to mention they will need to tear it apart to find an issue only after they acknowledge that there is at least one in the first place. Then the car is out for weeks or months and it's not necessarily a garauntee they will cover the repair or replacement(s). Perhaps someone messed up the tranny on the dealer's end by way of employees or unsupervised test drives before the OP even took delivery.

I admitt my advice may have been a little hasty (and personally biased). Trying another dealer might be in order and/or a call to corporate but it is really an overly drawn out process and that is just to get them to give a serious attempt to investigate the issue. Then they will need to open it up and find what the issue is and perhaps make a guess as to what caused it, if it isn't clear.

There is risk to be assessed in either decision but if it were me, and simply not to have to deal with so much BS some dealers can give you (as appears to be the case), I might just take my chances with the better fluid swap and retain the original fluid that came out of the car just in case (in order to flush a few times and refill), but it's not my car or my responsibility to face the result of that or the outcome, so Doc has to make that decision for himself, but you are 100% correct, he should be made aware of the potential risk, if he isn't aware of that already, and it would appear the fluid swap can/should be considered more risky.

docboy

I wasn't aware the TSX has issues with 3rd gear popping out. How is the R gear? Are you finding the R gear to engage sufficiently?

Maybe you and I are not shifting properly?

maddogtheta

I had issues in my 06 civic SI that were similar to your issues, mainly third gear popping out when I was shifting. I was lucky enough to have the dealership change my transmission fluid and the problem went away. They also were kind enough to question my driving habits. I also had that pleasure when I had to get my clutch replaced on my 2010 TL at 19k miles under warranty to have the service manager tell me that I needed to seriously rethink my driving habits as well, it was infuriating to say the least and the last time I went to that dealership.

I've only had one instance where I was shifting into reverse and I hit the gas and let the clutch engage and I just heard the car rev, I attributed that instance to me not putting the shifter into R hard enough. I have never had to shift to first gear to get reverse to go in, I am able to shift from neutral to reverse.

I'm not sure if a change of transmission fluid would alleviate your issues, but I did notice that my transmission shifts at least as smoothly as it did when i first bought my TL, it could be a relatively easy and cheap fix. It's also a fairly simple and short DIY if you have access to ramps or a jack and jack stands.

Have you been able to pinpoint any factors that seem to affect the shifting like temp or being on a hill or shifting at certain rpm's? I definitely think videoing the problem would help, but if the problem is random it's going to be hard to catch it on video.

Sorry you're having so much trouble with your car Doc. I know how frustrating it can be and it sounds like your problems are escalating. At least you have a record of trying to get your car fixed by the dealership if something catastrophic happens to the transmission.

andrec8513

Not in a Subaru WRX!

NwTSXmt

What The F are you talking about...

On topic: Sorry I cant help OP, the wife's TL has over 17K and zero issues with the gears/trans

normallywho

Regarding the CarFAX concerns, I think only repairs show up there, and it really depends on what the facility chooses to note. If you're curious, check out some random CarFAX reports (usually available from used car dealerships) online and get a feel for what shows up there. I feel confident that simply opening a ticket with corporate isn't going to introduce any notations on the vehicle's report.

I think, if possible, you should check with another dealership. I've had cases where one dealership refused to do a repair because they couldn't reproduce the issue. The problem being, they have to send/report warranty repairs to corporate and if corporate decides the repair was unnecessary or not their responsibility, the dealership doesn't get reiumbursed. I was convinced this issue was a defect, though, so I took it to another dealership and while they were reluctant, they did the part replacement and everything is groovy now. I'm sure when it comes to a full transmission, a dealership is going to be significantly more reluctant to do a warranty repair if there's a chance they won't be reimbursed for it. Hopefully someone somewhere will listen to you...

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

LOL at Doc.

docboy

Thanks for the tip. I'll give another dealership here in the state a call and see what they have to say.

What exactly about this thread do you find amusing?

RIneuron

I don't have the MT, but I am 61 YO and have driven many manual trans over the years, and have never had to do this. I have occasionally had to double clutch to go into 1st or R, but the OP problem is quite different from this. His touch, the shift indicator, and the computer indicate he is in R, but he is not.

Does the TL MT manual say anything about going into 1st before R?

lji

doc... sorry to hear that your car's having trouble... We've got identical vehicles and I've got zero issues (so far) with mine. I'm not sure how warm it's gotten up in Washington, but is this issue prevalent in colder temps or both hot & cold temps? Since you were trying to reverse uphill, did you feel the hill start assist feature kick in? It is supposed to kick in on slopes with the gear in reverse (since the backup camera came on) and the car facing downhill.

BLEXV6

No problems with reverse.

My understanding with the TSX is that there is an issue with the 3rd gear. What happens is when you push in the clutch and engage the gear from 2nd to 3rd, there is resistance for the shifter to engage in 3rd gear and as such if it does not go into 3rd right away the clutch is no longer pressed and the gears grind. It is very periodic and my wife has the same problem. No other gears have this issue. I have heard othe 6 speed manuals of Hondas have this issue.

ESHBG

They were at one time, but the issue I feel now is that they kind of stopped being developed further at some point over the years because of the popularity and further development of Autos. On the same token, their declining popularity and barely there sales these days does not give manufacturers much motivation to make them bulletproof; in comparison to Autos they are much simpler so if there is a problem, they can usually fix them much easier.

Anyway, I am sorry to hear that you are having these issues, docboy, and I know of a few people who have had issues w/ Honda's 6 speed manuals (mainly the 3rd gear issue). With the symptoms you have been describing, I feel that you may have a bad tranny, as to have the 3rd gear issue AND this does not sound good at all...

potmilkz

Driving many MT cars does not mean you were driving properly... also you do not have to double clutch on any car to go into reverse or 1st or any other gear unless the tranny gears are bad.. maybe you messed up your gears soo bad that it requires you to do that?

if you actually look into a MT (if you ever took one apart), there are no synchros in the reverse gear.

The reason it grinds it that the transmission is still rotating for a bit even after you have pushed in the clutch. Reverse gear does not synchro to help match the shaft speeds like all the forward gears do and if the trans is rotating and you try to put it into reverse it grinds.

This is standard MT drivers ED 101.

maybe the OP has done this too much to effectively damage the reverse gear..

remember, not all cars are exactly the same, some might be defective on certain areas of the car.

RIneuron

And how does this explain the problem of popping out of 3rd?

maxikeem

Docboy, did you try acura of bellevue? You should check them out.

potmilkz

you told me you never had to do it.. i simply explained to you why it had to be done... and it could be damaging to your transmission


and to the OP, i strongly believe you have a defective transmission.

my advice, if you really want to catch this in the act. just simply bust out your phone every time you try to put the car in reverse.. it might be a hassle.. but you will eventually catch it.

We all know acura wont do shit till you show them proof, and what better proof is a video if it happening. Oh and make sure once you do catch it, run your phone camera through the door vin to catch the vin number to authenticate it.

that would be my solution, but its a very big hassle.

normallywho

Maybe my imagination is just too limited, but I don't see how you could possibly record this to provide a verifiable account of any defect unless you employ the use of multiple synchronized cameras positioned at key points inside and outside the vehicle. If all you have is a cell phone camera, what would you point it at to prove there's something wonky going on?

potmilkz

normallywho,

hes asking for something he can do. read the post.

i am merely giving him suggestions. personally, i would think this would work. acura wants to see the problem, even if they are not there. if you can prove to them that there is an issue, why not?

but all in all, your post was no help.

Pete2010

The 3rd gear issue was a known issue in the 3rd gen. When I told acura of boston about it on my car, they said they already replaced one transmission (from another member here), but his issue was worse.

As for reverse not engaging, I've had that happen, but normally I can "feel" when it doesn't engage. I almost always shift into 2nd, then shift into R, it shifts much easier into R when I do that. If i go from N to R, it is more difficult.

I know in another thread you mentioned you park with the shifter in R, have you stopped doing that, and used 1 instead? May be something to try.

I'm not saying it's anything that you're doing wrong, I'm sure that the transmission has it's problems, it's not like we've never seen this before (3rd Gens)

docboy

Your theory makes sense. I'm guessing I took Acura's hx of generally strong reliability too much into factor when I bought the TL 6MT. Incidentally Consumer Reports did rate the TL SH-AWD as Acura's least reliable model. I think CR may be onto something

I suspect too this TL has a less than perfect tranny.

Yes, I took it the car there 3 times. The circumstances I listed above were all with Bellevue. I also took it once to the dealership near Southcenter. In all incidences I feel they were brushing me away and either trying to blame driver error (ie. I'm not releasing the clutch properly, WTF??) AND trying to make up some excuse and say "it's the way the new transmissions are" or "it's the way the gear is supposed to engage," or "tricky hill start sensor", things that don't make sense.

Good idea; I've thought of doing this. Not sure if I can do this with the 3rd gear popping out unless maybe I setup a tripod stand for a running camcorder in the car ever single day when I'm driving. Probably easier to film for the dam R problem. Maybe I'll even post it on youtube

Pete, yes, I have tried parking in 1st or even neutral instead of R. Doesn't seem to help with the R issue though.

Too be honest, I never knew the 3rd gen TL had tranny issues. I was really happy with my prior 1G TSX (auto), so I thought the happiness would translate over to the TL. It never occurred to me to evaluate the 3rd gen TL's hx; my ignorant mind told me that since "Acura engineered a whole new transmission for the 4G TL 6MT" it was going to be a gem.

In retrospect, it seems IMHO that Acura's most reliable transmission is the tried and true more recent 5spd automatic (ie. TSX, RDX, 04-09 MDX). Again, fast forward to today, had I known the 3G TL's prior 6MT issues, I would not very likely have bought the vehicle.

Pete2010

At the end of the day, all cars can have their issues. Didn't the early TL's or CL have auto tranny issues (where people had many replaced trannys)?

I noticed my 3rd gear issues were worse in the cold, I'll probably bring it back in this fall for a week for them to check out and get a loaner.

The bonus is that there is a 75k mile warranty on the tranny.

erick3

Doc,

Are you taking to Acura of Bellevue? In ALL HONESTY, Charles is the one to go to. Acura of Lynnwood acts MUCH quicker with warranty repairs, especially if they're serious. Contact Charles in the morning and inform him of your current situation. There's NO DOUBT in my mind, that he'll take care of you.

erick3

Also, from what I can understand: transmission warranties are a BIG deal. The dealerships are bound to do everything they can prior to actually replacing it. Like I said, Charles > Jason (Acura of Bellevue service manager). By the way, That GM Synchromesh fluid is only a temporary fix.

TylerT

iTrader: (1)

GM Synchromesh FM has been in my transmission for a little over 27,000 miles and my car still shifts as smooth as the day I put the fluid in. Even in the morning and it's dead cold, my gears go in smoothly ..

My car was difficult engaging 1st from a very slow roll, hard to engage 2nd, popped out of 3rd, crunchy shifts going into 4th and reverse was God awful in the morning.

I know your car is new and under warranty, but the fluid does wonders for our 6MTs.

MyT6MT

Docboy you are not alone. I have all of the same issues as you do with my 2010 6Mt TL. I have been in a constant battle with Acura over these issues and am going back to my dealer for another round of complaints about the transmission next week. I'll let you know how it goes but I am expecting the same Bull Shit as I have been hearing for the past year.

lji

Any updates on your transmission issues docboy??

potmilkz

soo glad i have an auto.. lol

HeartTLs

iTrader: (5)

I'm only glad I have an auto because I drive over 20k miles a year. I can imagine the manual feels faster and is a lot more fun to drive.

almostatlowner

As with other 6sp manual 4th gen owners, I experienced the 3rd gear pop out and loss of reverse problems. After some research, I decided to try switching to GM Friction Modified Synchromesh transmission fluid. I could not find anyone with a 4th gen who had done this, so I thought…what the heck…lets give it a shot. It’s only a $40k car, right?
This was done back in July with 13k miles on the clock. After 3 months and 3k miles, my results are decent, but not quite what I had hoped. The other day in my parking garage, I lost reverse while backing into my spot on a slight decline. I shifted into neutral and reverse again and it worked. The 3rd gear pop out has not reoccurred yet, but we’ll see how it does during winter. As for the smoothness of shifting…previously before shifting into 3rd, I’d say 1 out of every 25 shifts into 3rd would have that super buttery smooth feeling. After changing to GM FM, I’d say it’s about 1 in every 10 shifts now. Is it due to GM FM and hot weather or simply a change to new fluid? Who knows.
For those of you 4th gens interested in doing it yourself, here are a few pictures. It was over 100 degrees in my garage during July so I didn’t take as many as I would have liked.
As always…SAFETY FIRST! Use common sense! Just because this procedure worked for me, does not guarantee it will work for you! I take no responsibility if it does not work out for you.
Now…on to the pictures. This is for the 6 speed manual transmission only!
Note: I used torque values found in the 3G forums. They may not be exact for the 4G.

1.) Loosen the fill plug in the engine bay first. I didn’t think to do that and consequently had to lower the car and then jack it back up again. Note: There is a weird circular pivoting part that ‘hangs’ over the fill plug. I don’t know when it happened, but at some point it pivoted out of the way by itself. Grab your 3/8” ratchet, a 20” extension, and a swivel. The plug is on tight, so you will need good leverage to break it loose. You may even want to use a breaker bar.




2.) Make sure the emergency brake is fully engaged. Then, chaulk the rear wheels and jack up the car at the front jacking point.




3.) Lower the car on to jack stands and double check it is stable. Do not cut corners and get into a rush! You will be turning wrenches under the car! Safety first!


4.) Next time, I probably won’t remove the plastic shielding. The tranny drain plug is far back enough that you could bend the plastic shielding down and use a piece of foil to direct the fluid into your drain pan. That would save at least a ½ hr or more. However, I wanted access to the tranny check plug, so I removed the shielding. If you’re not messing with the shield, go on to step 5.

Start with removing the 4 screws just behind the air damn. If I recall correctly, they are 10mm.


Next, remove the remaining 13 plastic push plugs that hold the shield up. These have always been a pet peeve of mine. I don’t like messing with them because I end up getting pissed and breaking them. I didn’t photograph all the locations, but you already know to look for 13. Some are hidden high up in the wheel wells. As the shield starts coming down, you will find the plugs quickly. Once done, pull the shield out.

Drivers Side


Passenger Side




As expected, I broke one of the plugs. Also, while re-installing the shield, I needed a BFH to get one of the plugs back in.


5.) Move your drain pan underneath the drain plug. Use your 3/8” ratchet and 2” extension and loosen the plug.


6.) After the fluid has drained, grab a new crush washer (Honda Part 94109-20000) and reinstall the plug, torquing to 29 ft lbs.


7.) My original plan was to use the tranny check plug as the fill hole. However, I discovered the hole is so small that the fill tubing would need to have the diameter of a stir straw. Consequently, I abandoned the idea. Reinstalling the check plug turned into a major pain. My check plug picture (first picture) was blurry, so I found another (second picture) on this forum and edited it. There is an electrical connector next to the plug. When I tried to use my torque wrench, the connector got in the way. My wrench could not get a good grip because of the angle, and I thought I had stripped the bolt. You know that heart sinking feeling you get when you just screwed up? Well, that’s how I felt. At that point I stopped, broke out the swear jar, and cussed up a storm. After a 20 min cool down, I crawled back underneath and loosely reinstalled the check bolt. I then crammed my torque wrench in and very very slowly turned the wrench. Finally, I heard the magical click! What a relief! I suppose I could’ve used a swivel to get a better angle, or removed the bracket. Regardless, I’m never messing with the check plug again! BTW, the torque value I used was only 8.7 ft lbs. I bought a new torque wrench for this since mine didn’t go that low.




8.) Lower the car back on the ground. Grab a long funnel and fill with 2.25 qts of the appropriate manual transmission fluid. I opted for semi synthetic GM Synchromesh Friction Modified fluid (GM Part 12377916). Fortunately my local GM dealer had it in stock. I tried to find the AC Delco version as it is quite a bit cheaper, but no luck locally. My funnel worked fine, but next time I will shorten the tube by about an inch.




9.) Grab a new crush washer (Honda Part 94109-20000) and re-install the fill bolt. Torque to 33 ft lbs. You probably don’t need a new crush washer for the fill plug but I changed it anyway.

10.) Take the car for a short spin. Then, jack the car up again using the same procedure as in step 2. Check for leaks, and re-install the plastic shielding.

Overall, this took me about 3.5hrs. That’s because this was my first time without directions and I went very slow. Next time I’m guessing I could get it done in 1 – 1.5hrs.

Good luck!

CedarLake

I'm on my second TL. The 1st didn't have the MT problem, the second did. A search of 3g TL forum on this site is definite proof that this is common. An Internet search will show that it's a Honda problem not limited to any particular model, check YouTube. It took almost 2 years for the dealer where I purchased the car to finally decide to rebuild the transmission (Acura does not replace them). I was told it would take 2 days. 3 weeks later I finally picked up the car only to be totally disappointed. I no longer had a 3rd gear problem, I had a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th problem. I took it to another dealer, it took this dealer over a year before "reproducing" the problem that I couldn't get behind the wheel without experiencing... Again, a day and a half turned into 2 weeks and although better, it certainly wasn't as good as my 1st TL. I finally decided to hell with warranty and did the GM fluid change. It made all the difference. I sure wish I would've done it sooner.

Shoot2Thrill

The weird shifting part is the shift cable attachment. If you are in a different gear it covers the fill hole. That whole plastic under body panel looks like such a pain in the ass. I thought the 3G was a pain! Those plastic push pins are about $3.00 each. Plus, as the cars get older they degrade so it is almost necessary to break to remove them. This should be a sticky!