BigWopHH

It's my own fault for not doing more research before having it installed, but I'm beginning to think putting a UR Pulley on my 4G was a bad idea.

Check out the updates at the bottom of this review (not of a UR Pulley, but something similar):

http://www.ntpog.org/reviews/underdrive/pulley.shtml

Then check out this comment from another article I found:

"On a Honda or a typical sport compact, you're not going to see 6-10 horses. It improves efficiency freeing up horsepower. It doesn't make horsepower. In a high revving Honda 4 banger, OEM pulleys come with dampeners in them that are taken into account when a rotating assembly is balanced. Taking this off can be fatal to an engine. In Honda's for example, the OE CTR pulley without the dampener has been fatal in many instances. It throws off the balance of the rotating assembly and eliminates harmonic dampening necessary to the engine at high rpm. When you're revving at 8K + rpms, that's not a good thing. There are other ways to achieve the same effect w/out switching to a different crank pulley. A light weight flywheel is probably the best alternative. If you must switch out your pulley for "bling factor", I would recommend the Fluidampner's Harmonic balancer. It's the only aftermarket, light weight crank pulley with a built in harmonic dampener."

Do the stock crank pulleys on the 4G TL have harmonic dampeners?

prepreludesh

I am not a subject matter expert on this, but the article you pulled up does only talk about 4cyl engines. The damper is needed on them because engines above 2.0l need that and I think its always been a fact to obtain longentivity and reliability.

The j-series v6 is purposefully designed to bank the cylinders at 60 degrees to create its own dampening effect and eliminate the need for balance shafts. Since the design is self dampening, you might be good to go with this ur pulley because of that reason, so don't freak out just yet

BigWopHH

Not too freaked out because I've only put a few miles on the car since it's been installed (I work from home, and have been without the car for going on 3 weeks while it's at the dealership), but don't want to do unecessary damage to the car for only a minor performance increase.

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

Dont be worried. i had the UR pulley on my 3G Base for about 10k... and on my 3G Type-S for about 25k-27k with absolutely NO issues what so ever

BigWopHH

How do you know you didn't have any problems without pulling the motor apart? My concern is that I keep my cars forever (had my CL for almost 13 years). I was under the impression that the UR Pulley was more precisely balanced than the OEM pulley and that it being lighter would put less of a strain on the engine. Now I'm thinking I wrong.

Does anyone know for sure? I guess if the stock pullery didn't have harmonic dampeners, I'm worrying about nothing.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

A lot of people talk about this, but in my 14 years in this industry I have yet to see an actual failure really caused by removing the harmonic damper in the crank.

George Knighton

Neither have I, and I've been in the Honda scene since 1989.

Having said that, however, I have to admit that I would not put an under-driven pulley on my 2010 J Motor car.

Although I trust Honda completely, I think that a J Motor at 3.7 litres is pushing the limits of logic even without adding performance items. Not that I'm especially a worry wort. I just think that 305 HP and 3.7 litres is enough.

If someone has already installed an under-driven pulley, and he trusts the installer, I would not worry so much that I'd take it off. But it's not something I would do to my own 3.7 TL. I cannot imagine an Acura dealer honouring a warranty on a motor that obviously has an under-driven pulley, either, and I paid for a 125,000 mile warranty.... :-)

BigWopHH

I didn't go with the under-drive pulley, just a lighter-weight stock sized one. I've hardly put any miles on the car though, so I'm not worried about it having cause any damage at this point, but I'm going to take it off if there's a chance.

I guess the only question is does the OEM pulley have harmonic dampeners?

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

Take a read in this thread...

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-112/another-ur-pulley-thread-help-753732/

Lots of good information

BigWopHH

Thanks Blackura, that answers a lot of questions actually--just read through the whole thread.

The short answer is the OEM pulley is a harmonic damener, and that installing the UR pulley is a bad idea considering the mild performance gain.

Looks like that OEM pulley is going back on. Just not worth the risk. Wish I had done more research before taking the plunge. Damn it.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

The factory pulley does have an elastomer built into it to reduce noise associated with the accessories. However, its purpose is not to balance the motor. And installing the UR pulley, which is 0 gram balanced and CNC machined with .001" tolerances, will not affect anything for the worse. There are many 2nd gen CL/TL owners with the UR pulley installed and they are running for over 200k with no issues. It only becomes an issue when you are pushing 2.5-3 times the factory hp or revving the car 2-3k above stock redline, and in that case the OE pulley won't work either. You would need a FLUIDAMPR as mentioned.

Read this article too:

http://unorthodoxracing.blogspot.com/

BigWopHH

Lot's of good information in that article, thanks Josh. But, it's coming from UR, and will obviously paint their products in the best light.

In addition, they seem to be coming out with dampened pulleys anyway, despite claiming they're not necessary. I just don't want to do any unecessary damage to my car.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

You don't have to look at the info from UR if you do not want to. There are plenty of testimonials from actual users of the pulley. 200,000 miles with a pulley and no issues should indicate that the UR pulley, since it is properly machined, will not cause issues. And generally the posts/threads on the pulleys are from doomsdayers with no actual proof of any issue.

The reason UR is making a dampened pulley is for those customers pushing big hp or high revs. Again, it would be for those making 3 times the factory hp or revving 2-3k higher than factory. It will also be for domestic V8 motors.

BigWopHH

If I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, not having the elastomer on the crank pulley with the engine in the 4G TL means--at worst--there could be some additional noise associated with the accessories, but that there won't be any additional wear on the crank / crank bearings, correct?

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

One of my vehicles is a 99 Accord 4cyl. That vehicle came with a F23A1, which is a Honda i4 2.3L SOHC VTEC motor. I built the block for boost and when we removed the internals all the bearings were in a great shape and that was with 20-25k miles of having the pulleys on the motor. There has been no evidence to support that the crank pulleys affect the internals of the motor. The motor is internally balanced and the elastomer on the pulley is there, not to balance anything, but to suppress noise associated with the accessories.

BigWopHH

The more I read up on this topic, the faster I want to get that UR Pulley off my car. Here are a couple of posts from a few threads at a Scion forum discussing UR and their pulleys...

"Shawn Baumgartner (owner of Unorthodox Racing) will NEVER tell you there is any danger to his product. I have argued with him in the past about this, he is an idiot. He also will not pay for your engine repairs, he only warrants his crank pulley for manufacturing defects. He does NOT warrant any incidental or consequential damages, and has not paid any claims for damage attributed to his product because his warranty is very specific.

Ask Guillermo Polo, Michael Gaari, Lance at Toyomoto in Miami, and a host of other Supra owners what happens when you remove your harmonic damper and replace it with a UR pulley. Flexplate bolts back out. Crank position wheels break and rotate so the engine either won't start at all, or will fail intermittently while driving. Rod and main bearings show unusual wear patterns. And a host of other wonderful things."

And another....

"Shawn was an idiot in '99 when he and I argued about this the first time. It doesn't appear he's learned anything new in the last 8 years.

Ask him about Guilly Polo losing his star wheel (crank position sensor) after running the UR pulley. Ask him about Michael Gaari who had the exact same issue. Nobody in the Supra world runs his crap anymore because we know it causes problems AND Shawn doesn't warranty the damage caused by the pulley, only the pulley itself. The time and effort it would take to sue him and collect damages would not be worth the effort. Ever. He is in a total win situation. No one will waste their time with him in court, so he continues to peddle his stuff to unsuspecting people with every new model that comes along. Christ, the 2AZ pulley isn't even underdrive!

One point: the aluminum dress up pulleys for the alternator and water pump are just fine. I would never say anything bad about them. The deliver what they claim. But the crank pulleys? No way."

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

WOW !!!!

subscribed

I have had the pulley for 20K miles and seems no damage so far, taking into consideration i havent opened my engine....but i would like to know what goes on in this thread !!!

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

Dont forget, those claims all appear to from Supra Owners..

If they are avid Supra owners/modders, chances are they have a 2JZ-GTE engine, pushing 20lbs+ of boost, and making between 500-1000whp..

Alot more stress/power on the crank... then our measily 200-250whp N/A engines


I have read alot of bad reviews on the UR pulley too, but on here on Acurazine, for the 3 years ive been a member, and an owner of UR pullies, i too, have never had a problem... I've never heard of anybody on here having problems either with this pulley and their car

just my


I have a UR pulley in my Garage, waiting to be installed for months... just havent had the time. I will install it on my car, and have no worries

If i can add one thing, make sure your installer knows/knew what they were doing. J series motor Crank pulley needs around 181 or 188 lb/ft torque... and an impact gun, is NOT a good idea...

BigWopHH

I had Josh install mine, and it feels / felt perfect, so I'm confident the job was done 100% correctly.

I just wonder how many of the poeple on here have actually kept their cars long enough to find out if the pulley is doing any damage. Looks like you've upgraded every two-three years, swoosh has only put 20K miles on his. Without pulling your motors apart, there's no way you'd know.

Regardless of the engine type, I understand the Supras rev higher and put out much more power at the crank, but doesn't that just mean the damage will take longer to occur with our engines? And how long is that timeframe?

BleuM&M

These are Toyota owners with the hate speech, folks. Scion = Toyota. Further, they are inline Toyota motors. Supras have straight sixes. I don't think it has anything to do with boost but everything to do with engine design.

If there were a problem with UR pulleys on a Honda product, it would be out there for everyone to see. Time to take a chill pill.

Per Excelerate: "The motor is internally balanced and the elastomer on the pulley is there, not to balance anything, but to suppress noise associated with the accessories."

Accord_V6_400m

iTrader: (1)

Your engine design hypothesis might be the common denominator between the Supra owners having problems and the E46 M3 guys not using after Dinan's article came out.

Let me add lightweight flywheels to the discussion and see what comes up.

If anything check out what hondanews.com has to say about the crank pulleys/DM flywheels.

BigWopHH

Can anyone point to reliable information that says Honda motors are "internally balanced" and that the elastomer in the crank pulley is strickly there as a noise suppressor?

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

If their product was bad or problematic they'd be out of business. And Josh and I would not be selling them.

BigWopHH

No one is saying their other products are bad, just the crank pulleys, which they've discontinued according to this post...

https://acurazine.com/forums/4g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-295/xlr8-pulleys-unorthodox-racing-753659/

And the fact that people sell them doesn't make them any less likely to cause damage.

I'm obviously no expert, and the debate could end if any of the more knowledgeable folks in here can actually point to a reliable source that explains that Honda motors are "internally balanced" (this is a myth according to a number of article's I've read in the last few days), and that the OEM pulley's dampener is only used to help quell accessory noise and not insulate the crank from additional vibration.

And please understand I don't mean to say you and Josh aren't credible sources of information, but you sell the products and the article Josh mentions is from UR themselves.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

They didn't discontinue crank pulleys; they discontinued the stock diameter one and kept the underdrive unit since the stock diameter pulley didn't sell as well as the underdrive pulley. They do that as the years go on. And I picked up that pulley and had them make that pulley for us again so the AZ community could still have that as an option.

I also run these pulleys on my vehicle and go into the 2nd Gen CL community and search and you will find there are a number of J-series members with over 200,000 miles with the pulley with no adverse affects.

It's up to you, though, what you want on your car. You have nothing to worry about but not everyone feels the same way.

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

Honda engines are not internally balanced. Believe it or not, they are just build really damn good.

I recall taking a shop class like 10 years ago (oh man, that long ago?) and we were looking at different engine parts. Stock honda parts are built to much higher specs than a lot of other engine makes. Actually this fact extends beyond the engine. Honda quality control is really very amazing.

point being...the speculation that light crank pulleys (and light flywheels as well for that matter) are bad for the engine are largely due to conclusions found on either other engines, or full race engine in competition use, or both.

There is a massive problem with variance in perspective being consolidated into common paradigms on the internet. People like to make factual statements and blanket them to all walks and situations, and that simply doesn't work.

Does eliminating the harmonic balancer in the engine make a difference in the longevity of the engine? YES. As a Honda owner who takes reasonable care of their car of their car ever going to notice it? NO. Should you let the issue of engine life impact your engine influence your decision to buy and install a light crank pulley? Only if your are more anally retentive than power-hungry.

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

are you saying UR stop selling the Stock Size light weight pulley?

Izzy-Type-S

iTrader: (1)

I'm about to purchase one for my 08 TL-S...did it void out your warranty or anything like that?

BigWopHH

I think UR will stop selling them directly, but Josh will have them available as per the thread I reference a couple of posts back.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

Yes they discontinued the stock diameter model and they have continued production on the underdrive model. Each year they discontinue the slower moving model. However, we have UR continue to make them for us so that we can offer them to Acurazine.