PsychDoc

It's kind of like ordering a pizza and saying "hold the cheese and sauce." I mean if you're already spending north of $35k, what's another $2-3k to get all that the SH-AWD gives you?

I'm sorry, but to me, it just doesn't make a lot of sense. The extra 1mpg? I hardly can imagine that that's a significant motivating factor.

JD23

Probably because SH-AWD is not worth an extra $3k for some people. You could pose the same question about the tech package. I'm unhappy that Acura decided to combine the nav system with other options to create the expensive tech package. If I had a choice, I'd skip the nav system but keep the sound system, as was possible with the 3G TL.

PsychDoc

Actually I love the fact that the Acura doesn't nickle and dime the buyer with endless options and packages. I love the simplicity of just one option (the tech package) for either the white bread TL or the SH-AWD.

DLeeWebb

Until my recent experience buying the TL, I would have agreed with JD above. However, I'll go with Doc on this one. Only needing to deal with AWD and/or the Tech package made the deal process a lot easier for me. I think that I got a better deal as a result...

JAB00

A 50 year old soccer mom doesn't need or will not miss the SH-AWD. Most drivers probably wouldn't get a full experience of the SH-AWD during day to day driving. My brother who had a BMW 3 drove my 3G and remarked it felt like a RWD. The AWD really will appeal to enthusiasts.

(Cj)

PetesTL

I love the fact that Acura made AWD a relatively inexpensive option on the 4G. On most other brands, getting the AWD usually meant an easy $5K-8K increase over the standard model. For only an extra $2K-3K over the base TL, not only do you get the awesome SH-AWD (which totally transforms the car), but also a thicker (and better) steering wheel, thicker side bolsters on the seats, contrast stitching, sports suspension, quad exhausts, and much nicer 18" rims and wheels......what a frickin bargain!!

tm86it

Don't forget you also get the 18-inch wheels when you go with AWD... have you seen what Acura charges for wheel/tire upgrades alone for the base TL? Like $3K, so for the price increase to the AWD to get the bigger engine and superior handling/performance, plus the wheels and tires and a few other things, it's a no-brainer, I agree!!! And, the final kicker is it allows you to select the umber leather interior, which looks like the final deal maker for me!

PsychDoc

"Bargain"

That's the word I would use to describe this whole vehicle. It's in the size category of a BMW 5 or a M-B E-Class but costs less than a Lexus ES350 (I own one of those now and it's a nice enough 'conveyance,' but what a snoozefest).

And the simplicity and straightforewardness of the buying experience are a welcome relief from the BMW type ordeal where you are bombarded with options choices from the moment you decide which vehicle to buy. "Oh, you'd like wheels with that car?" "A steering wheel, you say?" Ad nauseum.

PetesTL

True. BMW and Mercedes will just kill you when it comes to options. Leather or Leatherette? To get heated seats, you have to get the Cold Weather Package. Push button start?....you have to get the Comfort Access Package. Nicer wheels?.....you have to get the Sports package. Nicer stereo? Nav? Back-up camera?.......cha-ching! There goes your wallet!

(Cj)

That's what "tier one" is all about

PsychDoc

Ripping off the purchaser?

DLeeWebb

I looked at all of the cars mentioned in this thread plus Audi, Volvo, the Cadillac CTS, and the new Maxima. The TL was a bargain compared to these cars with options that would have made them more or less equal. I'm happy with my purchase and glad that I didn't give in to the "prestige" badge syndrome which afflict many who rationalize the Mercedes, Lexus, and BMW. (which obviously are all fine cars with their various strengths and weaknesses...)

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

I would be hard pressed to equate being "tier 1" to 'ripping off the purchaser.'

There are valid arguments on both sides of the coin. There are people who really like the way Acura sells their vehicles, it's pretty cut and dry and makes the buying process easier. For others, having the ability and option to choose their own options personalizes the vehicle and buying process. What's good for some may not be good for others.

(Cj)

If you don't like expense and options you should get a Honda. Luxury is all about options. High prices is what makes luxury vehicles for the elite, and that's what prestige is all about. Acura has none because they appeal to normal mass market car buyers who can't afford a well equipped Lexus, BMW, or MB. Infiniti has learned this and they offer sufficient options to buyers and they are now seen as a tier higher than Acura. In order for Acura to truly be tier one more options are going to have to be offered. Anyway from a business point of view more options are good because that means higher margins.

vybzkartel

Almost like getting an Xbox360 without the hardrive, lol!

Blazing GT

Well I can relate somewhat to this thread.

TL & RL are similar cars.......

The SH-AWD WILL and I mean WILL not make you look back to FWD

PetesTL

Not sure about Infiniti. They offer packages similar to Acura's. When you build-out a G37, you either pick AWD, then either sport, Journey, or Base model, and finally Tech or non-Tech. Infiniti, to me, isn't on any tier that's higher than Acura....they have the M-cars, of course, but those cars compete with Lexus' GS and the RL....Infiniti doesn't have any cars that compete with true Tier 1 cars like the LS , 7 series, or S-class.

(Cj)

Infiniti offers and sells cars at higher price points then Acura (and they do so successfully).So lets look at the G and compare it's options with the TL. First off the G can be had as either a sedan, coupe or convertible. After selecting sedan we have the option of the base model, Journey model, sport model, and AWD model. Then after choosing the model you have the choice of 9 different packages. Compare that with the TL. The TL is only offered in sedan, and only has 2 models (base and AWD). And only 1 package .

JD23

You were missing my point. I also like the fact that the TL only has one or two option packages. With the 3G TL, the only option was the nav package, while the premium sound system was included in all models. I like having the premium sound system decoupled from the nav.

JD23

You do realize that Acura's lack of options simplifies the manufacturing process and reduces cost, resulting in higher profit margins and lower cost for the consumer. I don't see how the increased cost of having to build cars with countless option packages is a good thing.

DLeeWebb

I stand corrected...

Good point, I also think that the premium sound system should be decoupled from the NAV system. I also wish that there would have been a "wood option" rather than having the wood-accented steering wheel, and shift knob as overly expensive accessories. (although I do love the steering wheel just the way it is...)

(Cj)

This just proves the point that Acura is CHEAP. Offering VALUE is only good when the brand is a mainstream brand (like Honda/Toyota). Offering options makes each car more customizable for the consumer, and the price increase makes the models perceived as more "elite". Ergo why the Germans, Lexus, and Infiniti have more prestige than Acura. I love Acura but more options like Blind Spot monitoring systems, Panoramic Moonroofs, and rich wood inlays should be offered. The only Acura that comes close to being tier one is the MDX. The TL is second, but it pales in comparison to it's competition in the option department.

Colin

Oh, elite like Chevy and Ford? They offer a confusing array of choices to the buyer, make them wait till the car is made, but each car is customizable for the customer. So they must be elite.

The irony here is that the Honda model of manufacturing is being held up as an example to the industry (in this article at least)

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Automa...-14367968.html

PetesTL

I don't know. Acura has built its current reputation after many years as the "value luxury" brand. In my opinion, increasing options and cost will turn away more customers than gain them in the long run. One of the big reasons why the 3G became so popular is because it was so accessible to so many people....everybody from garbage collectors to cardiologists were able to afford them. Especially in this economic climate, you'll see more car companies now trying to cut costs rather than create them. Nowdays, cheap and green is in.

JD23

So waste and inefficiency implies prestige? This mentality is one of the reasons our country has a massive debt bubble and a minuscule personal savings rate. I think you could argue that Acura would be stronger if it differentiated itself more from Honda and used higher quality materials in some models, but its lack of options and efficient manufacturing process is one of its strengths.

(Cj)

The fact that Chevy and Ford aren't luxury brands explains why they aren't succeeding with their formulas. Mainstream buyers like simplicity, luxury buyers like individuality. There's a big difference between the two. That's why Honda is doing extremely well and Acura isn't. The Honda business philosophy and model plan doesn't work in the luxury arena and that has been proven time and time again.

It was Acura not (Cj) that claimed that Acura was moving upmarket to compete with the tier one luxury makes. I'm here to say that they're current formula isn't going to work and they need to offer more options and "luxuries" to become a tier one luxury brand.

(Cj)

Not every buyer wants a cookie cutter sedan. A LOT of luxury buyers, including myself, prefer to choose what we want and don't want; and have options and luxuries available. Acuras lack many of the features that other luxury brands (and even non luxury brands) offer as options.

Aside from that I think the lack of options is proof that Honda doesn't see investing in Acura as something worthwhile. The Accord has more packages than the TL. I think there's something wrong with this picture.

SSFTSX

Those 18inch does not look good for TL size and rim design is pretty much outdated. They need to offer these rims as standard on FWD model let along TL-SH-AWD. In future TL-SHAWD sales will further go down due to higher oil price. Just because they are 18inch does not make them bargain.

legend74

The last time I checked Audi is seen as tier 1 but they have moved to offering less packages then MB or BMW. I believe you can only get them in 3 different packages now, unless you include the sport package.

Colin

I still say there is no proof that the formula doesn't work for HMC. Who is to say that Honda is not perfectly happy with the formula of taking existing chassis and charging a premium for them. Who is to say that selling all those TLs over the years hasn't been more profitable than the A4 or S60 line in terms of what they add to VW or Fords (respectively) bottom line?

To me, the only think that has been 'proven' is that it's hard to crack 150,000 annual units with only three models pulling the weight.

Mike_TX

After having owned two SH-AWD Acuras, I can answer the OP's question ... because it ain't worth the extra cost and complexity to me.

- I live in the Southwest and ice and snow are not a concern for more than 2 or 3 days a year.

- You guys say "enthusiasts" appreciate the SH-AWD. I would argue that only foolhardy drivers will appreciate it, since you have to be driving at 8/10 or more to feel - or see - any real effect from it.

If you're going to pulling a G on an onramp just because you can, I don't want to be anywhere near you. And you're not going to see any noticeable handling benefit on 95% of the roads you drive everyday. So, IMO, it's just a "feel-good" thing for most people.

Trouble is, that leaves you only with FWD ... and that's the thing Acura needs to fix on the TL. I guarantee you - a RWD TL would sell, and the SH-AWD version would sit on the lot.

.
.

Colin

See, that's what I get tired of. IMO there are plenty of brands that will allow you to build your own. Go shop there. Let Acura do their business the way they want to do business and let the marketplace decide which is the better business model.

There are 5 trim levels for TL (with MT coming soon), there will be 6 trim levels for TSX, 5 trim levels for the MDX and there will soon be 4 trim levels for RDX. Come on, that's not so bad is it? Buyers already have a hard enough time finding the exact car they want in the color they want, so they're hardly 'cookie cutter' cars.

JD23

I think you're confusing the number of included luxury features with the number of available option packages.

Anyway, although you consider Honda's model to be a failure, Acura has outsold Infiniti, Audi, Volvo and Saab for many years.

PetesTL

You must be blind if you think those wheels look good. The stock 18" wheels on the SH-AWD model is a beauty and in my opinion, one of best stock rims put out by Acura in a long time. I think your hatred of the 4G is affecting your mental capacity to reason and judge with any clarity.

PetesTL

So you're saying for those of who live in the snow belt, the AWD model is still a joke? Get real! Have you even driven a AWD TL? ....It's a night-and-difference! ..And we're not talking about differences you can only feel at the track. Everything from the way the car takes off, handles routine corners, and driving on slick surfaces is vastly different. Sure, for pure performance, RWD would be more suitable but unlike most brands, Acura's version of AWD actually makes the TL into a more acceptable sports sedan. Just because you live in Texas, don't start making generalizations that AWD doesn't make sense for everybody.

SSFTSX

You mean this design. This simple Star shap is twenty year old. Why they put in 2009 is beyond me. It is only good for basic model.

(Cj)

They still don't offer popular luxuries other brands offer. Yes there are a lot of trims, but it's still nothing compared to other more prestigious luxury brands. Acura's current features and trims fall short, especially if Acura is still aspiring to become tier one.

And BMW, MB, Lexus and even Cadillac have outsold Acura for just as long. Look at the difference between these brands and Acura. Options. Be they engine options (which Acura is improving) or feature options (which Acura needs to improve). Acura's sales have been tanking for years (even before the economic crisis). Infiniti is about to overtake them in sales. Audi may even match or exceed Acura if things don't improve .

PetesTL

Is that A4 the car you wish you had SSFTSX?
Wheels are the easiest upgrade you can do on a car....there are millions of choices out there. Fact is, SSFTSX, the vast majority of people don't choose a car based on the wheels.....how stupid is that.

SSFTSX

I didnot said people buy cars based on wheel design alone. But some one mentioned that TL 18inch is bargain. Which it is not. Undesirable stuff is not a bargain. Situation is so desperate in bayarea that some dealers are now willing to trade my TSX with deeply descounted TL. Atleast TSX they can sell as CPO with 18inch rims. TL inventory they will not even sell at all for ayear on lots by that time 2009 will be even more depreciated.