PsychDoc

While I realize that a great deal of this is highly subjective, I believe the 4G TL is a huge step up in class, refinement and technology for Acura. While I would never have even considered a TL in 2 or 3G form, I find the 4G vehicle to be fully competitive in every way with the 5 series/E-class/A6 and better in some very significant respects. All at a price that's at least $17-23k cheaper. To me, the former TL's were "kid cars" -- you know the type, the ones that kids get and heavily modify or race around in. It was really not an adult's car. It most certainly now is. The technology included witht he tech package is second to none and the power is on a par (or better) with anything out there save a G37, AMG Mercedes or 8 cylinder BMW.

TLevation09

Well I did, and picked the TL. . . .and unless you can suggest another car that lets you spend 42K to SH-AWD thru snow listening to "Hotel California" in DVD surround, with a 6-foot 14 year old in the back seat, I'm sticking with my choice. . .

SebringSilver

But if "SH-AWD" was a criteria, you wouldn't have been in an Audi, BMW, Lexus, or Mercedes dealership to begin with, since they don't have such a drivetrain. If you meant you only required some sort of AWD vehicle with a reasonably spacious backseat, I guess you could have bought a Honda CR-V and just upgraded it with an aftermarket stereo, spending way less than $42,000 in the process.

Legend2TL

Depends on how you interpret better materials. A 5 series still uses MacPherson struts for it's front suspension. Inferior design/component to the TL and TSX's upper/lower "A" arm front suspension.

Alot of the folks on these forums have have never taken apart a car so their knowledge base on what is superior is limited to what they see. Once you disassemble something you can see what makes one product better than the other.

There are things in the BMW that are better than the Acura's and vice versa. My brother's had 5 BMW's that I've worked on so I may not be a expert by any means but I've looked at what below the sheet metal to know the difference.

Colin

What's funny about that is in the "old days" Acura used to make a really big deal about this. It was a major part of any Integra sales presentation.

Legend2TL

Remember how all the Civic forums were bloging all over the place when the 7G Civic went back to MacPherson struts?

One of the more interesting components in Honda's and Acura's few on this forums see is the use of rubber seals and "O" rings on the exterior electrical connections. They also use good plating materials on the electrical connectors and use liberal amount of clear grease in the electrical connectors. Also the use of locking latches on electrical connectos. Something I had not seen used on American or German cars I works on in the 70's and 80's. One of reasons why Honda's probably have fewer electrical problems is better electrical connectors.

I noticed this when I started working on friend's Honda's in the early 80's. One of those small details along with glueing felt to the contact joints on the interior plastic dash pieces to reduce rattle/noise.

cp3117

Well the first car that comes to mind is a car that was featured here in a earlier comparo thread against the "G" and the "TL" and thats the new VW CC. Its the same price as the TL, same options, AWD, and a better sound system and more rear leg room.

Personally though i think you have a very nice car by looking at your Avatar but there are many cars out their that compare well with the TL.

I guess my point was that you can compare the TL to a higher class vehicle and say it has a great value because it has the same rear seat space, but its just false and i think thats what others here are also trying to say. Having an inch or two rear seat space compared to a 3-series, A4 etc should be a selling feature against those vehicles, not bumping it up into a whole new class. There is much more involved than just rear leg room and this is why i think Acura is smart focusing the TL against the entry level cars.

If all it takes is rear seat space to bump up the category of a car then the Audi A8L W12 is a hell of a deal compared to a Bentley Flying Spur, as the A8L has more leg room and similar options, AWD, 12cylinder engine and similar 0-60 times for a whopping value of about $90-$100K less. (but i dont think anyone in their right mind would say those cars are in the same class)

Legend2TL

I agree with this except I'd say the "easily trump" applies only to the AMG, M, and S/RS series from MB, BMW, and Audi respectively. Now a days the differences in general performance in what the German's offer compared to the Japanese premium brands has come down alot to almost being on par in many instances.

On the bashing I also agree but it should be a two way street, there are quite a few on the other side of the fence who just consistently bash the Acura offerings. You've been very fair in your subjective opinions since you've owned many brands and offer an unbiased opinion.

Although I'm a Honda/Acura fan I try to be as fair as possible taking the good with the bad from them.

cp3117

I generally interpret "better materials" as better paint, leather, metals, interior trims ie wood etc. The suspension type is more of a functional design IMHO.

This is something that has always made me curious though as i have always noticed BMW uses the "inferior" design of the Macpherson strut compared to the Acura and others using the double wishbone, yet BMW's are generally always the best in terms of handling. It does make you appreciate their engineers even more that they can accomplish their achievements using an inferior system.

I agree that every manufacturer has some kind of an achievement or development that benefits something over another manufacturer. When you actually tear apart a car and see what goes into developing them you sure get an appreciation for the work the designers and engineers put into them.
I remember when i restored my first car. When i finally had it completely stripped down i stepped back and wondered what the hell i got myself into...

S2000 Driver

Appreciate their engineers more but appreciate their products less.

cp3117

Didnt they go back to that because of costs and that they needed more space in the engine compartment for the K-series?

Im not sure but maybe thats why BMW still uses Macpherson struts, because of space issues.

cp3117

Why would you appreciate their products less when they are still some of the best handling cars in the world.....

S2000 Driver

I appreciate their products less for just the reason you point out: they are using an inferior suspension design.

Wouldn't it be better if they used the superior suspension design and applied their wonderful engineering to it?

Guess I want to have superior design + wonderful handling if I'm going to pay the price premium demanded.

Legend2TL

I put better materials into all the components that comprise the vehicle. Here's a few more examples of materials.

1) mid-90's BMW's straight sixes with plastic impeller water pumps which the polymer would weaken over time with temperature cycles. The impeller would come apart, typcially blocking the cooling inlet to the head causing rapid overheating, followed by blown head gaskets, warped cylinder heads...

2) mid-90's MB's used a new type of wire insulation for their cars that would disintegrate when used in the wiring harnesses in mostly E-class cars. This is all over the MB internet forums, supposedly this a attempt by MB to be more green by having biodegradable cars but the insulation was not very tolerable for long term heat exposure.

3) Audi V6's built in the 2000-2006 time period used a plastic pipe to distribute the engine intake vacuum to the various devices that used vacuum (brake booster, emission controls,...). Over time that low cost corrosion resistant pipe also disintegrates in ~5 years. Low cost part (~$30) but it takes hours to remove the intake plenum and replace (a former colleague did it to his Audi wagon).

Honda/Acura has had it's own woes with the 4AT/5AT in alot of their products, so it's difficult to say one manufacturer has better materials as a blanket statement.

Looking at the visibile materials is easy, I find the other stuff is mostly looking at hopefully good surveys by current owners. Heck if looking at the wood, leather and paint were the prime factors of quality materials Jaguar would be cream of the crop

Colin

No, the newer Civics use struts because they allow more crumple room to meet their 5 star crash goals.

S2000 Driver

Nothing like basking in Jag-U-AR luxury whilst waiting for the tow truck to arrive!

Legend2TL

The rumor mill has it that cost was the main factor for the front suspension change to MacPherson struts. Although Honda did a spin job claiming the upper lateral forces are also handled with the steering rack tie-rod end. And yes the tie-rod end of a 7G and 8G Honda Civic are REALLY beefy so there is truth to that but I still prefer the upper/lower A arm approach.

Space is not a factor since a MacPherson suspension still requires more upper tower space. BMW has always had their struts, they've never apologized for them although whenever their cars are entered into Euro-touring car racing they ask for a waiver for homogenization to use upper/lower A arms so BMW engineers know what works best!

And yes they do get great results from struts in their road cars but that's more a issues of great overall car system design (suspension/chassis/tires/geometry/weight bias/drivetrain....) that makes up for a compromised front suspension design.

S2000 Driver

Unfortunately, I'm afraid you're probably right.

Very un-HMC-like.

Legend2TL

My wife's great uncle was a very successful dentist in Reading, PA and was part owner in a Jaguar/Buick dealership up there. His wife would get Jag's at cost throughout the 70's and 80's. She finally stopped owning XJ6's and went over to a Buick sedan because she was stranded one time too many (and I'm talking many, many times) by her last couple XJ6's.

When a few people on this forum disconnect reliability and dependability from "luxury" cars I find that amazing. When Lexus did their early marketing surveys for the LS400, they found those two near or at the top of several surveys. Back in the 90's BMW found on their customer satisfaction surveys cost of ownership to be the largest annoyance of owning a BMW. That was supposedly one of the driving factors for having the cost of maintenance including in their most recent cars for the initial few years. When Montezemolo took over Ferrari in the early 90's, besides returning the road cars to higher performance he also pushed for higher reliability and he expected both, not a compromise (that was in a interview in Motor Trend late last year).

S2000 Driver

And the NSX scared the hell out of Ferrari at the time because it demostrated that you could have a reliable supercar that didn't ignore human-factors engineering.

Many attribute the NSX to pushing Ferrari to turning a lemon, the 348, to lemonade, the 355.

(Cj)

But you have to remember that there is a difference between quality and reliability. Acura's "quality" isn't as high as say Audi and BMW, but there reliability far surpasses both. The only brand that has the perfect mix of both is Lexus. Not to say that Acura isn't improving, they are. But they still aren't quite there yet.

Legend2TL

That is true the NSX although not a sales success enjoyed great accolades in the press as being superior to the then 348 and 911.

Another large factor was Montezemolo, he owned a 348 that he bought right before coming CEO of Ferrari. Amusing story in this article relating to his 348 experience.


.....Di Montezemolo illustrates what happened with an anecdote. He'd finished the World Cup flushed with its success and decided to reward himself with a yellow Ferrari 348. But just after taking delivery, he was beaten away from the lights by a Fiat Strada hatchback-the hot Abarth version admittedly, but an indignity nonetheless.
"So, at my first meeting as Ferrari chairman, with the MD of our road car division, he asked, 'How is the 348? Fantastic?' I said, 'Listen, don't say this to me because I'm a customer.' I knew well the problems with the car, and I made a list of them.".....


Read the interview below, pretty insightful



http://www.motortrend.com/features/1...olo/index.html

mr.Honda F1

Regard to the TOUCHES,I made some minors touches to the console what you think guys?

KeithL

What am I looking for here?

TLevation09

Dude, the AMG owner's forum must be pretty boring for you to be hanging out here . . it will be a tough choice between the C63 and a CR-V for my next vehicle. . .

SebringSilver

I own a 2008 TSX. I've also owned a 2005 TL, a 1994 Legend, a 1994 NSX, and a 1992 NSX. Come to think of it, I also owned a 2008 Honda Fit for 2 months, and a 1984 Honda Accord. My being here has nothing to do with how active or inactive any other forum may be.

SebringSilver

I can't speak for others, but I'm certain you won't find a single post by me on this forum (or any other) in which I make disparaging remarks about Acura or the TL. Those people who make unfounded statements about Acura's TL obviously don't know what makes this car such a popular choice for many entry-level sports sedan buyers. They too should be set straight as to the many great things about the TL.

I think it's great that you always make thoughtful postings on this forum. There should be more like you.

cp3117

I never knew that before, especially regarding their racing..

Thanks for the input.

Legend2TL

Apparently not true for the latest ALMS BMW M3, it has front MacPherson struts!

http://www.supercars.net/cars/4034.html

I've seen articles and pictures of previous generation M3's that had the upper/lower "A" arms. Good to see BMW racing what's on the production cars!