KeithL

Ithink Acura's problem with Tier 1 status is a combinaton of things. They never moved upscale enough as they grew the line for one, they neede a big car V8 powered sedan, regardless if they don't sell many they needed a real flagship. The previous RL was too damn plain and the current one looks too damn small due to the rackish front and swoopy back. The 09 RL now gets a minor make over, but it is not enough the damage is done. The need a big flagship V8 based and re-introduce the Legend Name in the US. I also think they have a family resemblence problem. I thinks their styling has been all over the map so people don't recognize the cars as Acura. BMW, MB, Audi, etc all have some strong characteristics that make you realize you are seeing an Audi, MB, BMW, etc. I think Acura hoping the "Power Plenum" grill will do that for them is wrong. I do see the TSX and RL and MDX sharing some lines so that is good, but at this point the damage is done, it will take some hard work for them to get back on track to be a Tier 1 competitor. And do I care if they are Tier 1. I find that most people I know, know Acura, know they make a damn good very nice car and honestly I don't buy the car to impress them, I buy the car to impress me and my TL does that every day I drive it!

DLeeWebb

Bravo! Well said!

Edward'TLS

100% agree. I love my TL-S too, but due to the crappy tranny, I have been patiently waiting for years for another nice-looking high-powered Acura sedan for replacement. The 4G TL almost make it if not for the ugly front. The V8 RWD RL even better if the program can stay alive.

My point to make is that auto reliability is a good thing. But having good reliability doesn't always make a brand sell, like for the Acura brand. On the other hand, having bad reliability doesn't necessary make a brand flop as in BMW, MB, Audi, etc.

BEAR-AvHistory

Its a different market. Chevy, Ford & GMC are also selling SUV's & pickup trucks in the $40-50+ range.

Colin

As I noted.

timmahh

The original post in this thread has me questioning my ability to comprehend the english language.. because i'm confused as shit now.

However you did mention the following key words that I have formed a question out of:
"How does the price point of a 4G TL SH-AWD w/ Tech compare to a 3 series of similar equipment?"

335i xDrive (AWD); minor HP difference (330 vs 305) starts at $42,300. Add leather (instead of leatherette), smart key, nav, bluetooth, sport package, prem. pkg and i'm over $51k..

So if that's what the OP is about, price vs competitors, then... the TL is a way better deal?


I'm still confused and my head hurts. Time to go drive the 09 loaner around =p

Type34

"Unforgivable mistake"? C'mon guys, I think we're taking ourselves a little too seriously on this board.

The new TL is basically a 5-series/A6/E-Class/M45 sized vehicle at a 3-series/A4/C-Class/G35 price. I have yet to see the car marketed as anything but a technology-based performance luxury sedan.

Maybe the "performance" angle was stretching it a bit, but I don't see where the marketing guys dropped the ball here...

S2000 Driver

That about sums it up -- nicely said!

mr.Honda F1

Sorry sir English is not my first language but I try hard to deliver my point,and I think the guys in here got my point also you.
make it more clear I see the TL as 5 series , E class & A6 competitor.

timmahh

hehe =p

crxb

not to debate which is better - but the 335i is a much faster car than the 4G

cp3117

I dont think this is an "unforgivable Mistake" at all. I actually see this as a positive move by Acura.

The majority of consumers and Auto Journalists view the TL as the Entry level competition to other Tier 1 manufacturers such as 3 series, A4, C-class etc. The New A4 is very comparable now in many dimensions and when the new 5 series, A6 and E-Class are released this fall its rumored that they will be larger than their previous generation pulling even further away from the 4G TL. Then when you add in luxury options that the TL doesnt even have and better materials etc compared to cars such as the A6, 5 series etc you can see why the 4G TL is not in the same class as them.

IMO i feel this leaves the door open for Acura to release a new Model not only to compete with Flagship cars but also the intermediate cars such as the 5 series etc. The only thing that scares me is the economy and if this will hold Acura back alot.

With the 4G sales dropping and vehicles like the A4/A5 traditionally not know for strong North American sales now beating the TL in monthly sales, Acura needs to focus more now than ever on a Tier 1 marketing campaign.

PetesTL

I highly doubt it. With the global economy tanking, car companies are cutting costs rather than creating them. Every day you read about layoffs, production cuts, and delayed introduction of new models. Acura has recently axed the NSX and Toyota has put their upcoming super car, the LS-F, on hold indefinately. If you've seen any of the auto shows lately, cheap and green is in. I seriously doubt now that Acura will do anything with a revamped RL. (In my opinion, I don't see a new RL coming until at least 2011). To me, I think Acura's focus now is on the TSX. I think they're trying to make the TSX now their new bread-and-butter car. The 4G TL will most likely occupy the niche that the RL use to belong, and the TSX will most likely become the new "3G TL" in Acura's lineup.

BEAR-AvHistory

Sounds like a plan.

Colin

I was nodding my head all the way to here! IMO this is backwards. Acura needs to stop talking about their future plans because there seems to be a whole generation of kiddies that don't understand the difference present tense and future tense. I see so many people point to the current cars and say 'that's not tier 1 ...EPIC FAIL dude'.

The thing they are not understanding is that the current product is not supposed to be the tier 1 product. The next generation of engines and chassis are.

Finally, I don't believe that Tier 1 is a title that you can bestow upon yourself. Just as the Wizard of Oz could not give the lion courage. The lion had to find he had in himself on his own. When Acura develops 'true Tier 1" product, they won't have to market it, people will know.

(Cj)

S2000 Driver

In Summary:

"Tier 1: I know it when I see it."

PGSberg

Perfectly said Pete - Acura has had the intention of "cautiously" moving up market ever since they dropped the RSX. They do need to keep a price gap between the Accord and TSX though.

Colin

I hate that I didn't think of this....

Spearsoft

Anyone who says a bmw has better quality build then a TL has never sat in a TL. In fact, if there is one thing all the reviews agree on is how nice the interior is compared to its competitors.
But this is a troll magnet, CJ may occasionaly pretend that he's not a troll, but he's got the troll credentials including a recent ban from vtec.net because everyone there hated him so much.

PsychDoc

Regarding the quality issue I couldn't agree more. My wife (who could usually care less about cars) spontaneously commented that the TL showed an amazing amount of attention to small detail. Everything is just so well thought out and uses such top notch materials. To nit pick, the only one minor exception to this is the material of the headliner. Compared to the headliner material in my ES350, it looks decidedly cheap. But to offset that there are many other small elements of the TL's interior that simply blow away the ES350. And the interior instrument lighting and map lights are first rate.

There's so much about this car to love. And at ~$36,000 for a fully loaded car with xenon headlights, SOTA nav system/scree, real time weather and traffic, infotainment sytem with full ipod integration and a hard drive it's an almost criminal steal.

In size and appointments it competes directly with midsize sports sedans like the 5 series, A6, E-class and CTS yet it's priced more favorably that those cars smaller siblings. It's easily $14-20k cheaper than the midsized sports sedan competition.

S2000 Driver

Bullseye!

J.A.S.

It's too bad that more people haven't figured this out. If so, the TL's sales numbers might be better.

tm86it

The issue is that many people who are trying to step "up" in car realize for around $40K, they can finally get that A4 or 328 they always wanted. Forget of course that you get less for the money, that's not the point... many people got into their 1st Acuras when they were $25K-$30K, and that step up to the Audi or Merc or BMW was another $8K or so (25-30% premium). Now, people see the Acura's price up around $40K, and you can still get an Audi or BMw for similar price, so they want to experience that German car they've been thinking some day of getting if they could afford it.

As many have noted, the $40K-$45K price range starts bringing in a new level of competition for the premium import brands. Now that Acura's playing with the big boys, can they evolve their biz model (& design team) to maintain market share?

Doesn't look like it so far, but we shall see, it's early yet!

S2000 Driver

You're kidding, right?

Colin

...don't you start! You KNOW what's coming next!

SebringSilver

But the person who's shopping for a new 5 Series, A6, or an E Class (don't know about the CTS) would probably never consider the TL. So how could the TL be competing directly with those cars? It's possible that the car buyer who's looking for a 3 Series, an A4, or perhaps a C Class might consider the TL because, as many of you keep saying, the TL offers more bang for the buck.

My own thoughts are that Acura is still some way from being a premium brand, the Tier 1 status that I keep reading about on this forum. The very fact that "value for money" is its chief selling point only reinforces the idea that people aren't buying Acuras on the merits of the car itself, but on the compromise it provides in the content vs. cost argument.

tm86it

I'm about to buy my 2nd TL because it is such a good value... my prior point was that Acura is skating on thin ice... their huge "bargain" from 10 years ago, let's say, is no longer nearly as "huge"... it might still be $5K-$7K to step to the Audi or BMW that many want (including the A4 for me), but the more the TL costs, the smaller that percentage of increase is.

Where I live in SoCal, there are fewer buyers biting because of the bargain and more buying what they REALLY want. For every '09 TL I'm seeing on the street in past 3 months or so (and that's probably only about 6-10 total), there are dozens and dozens of 3 series, CTS, C-class, and A4s out there.

Acura, while I still love the cars for their value, is running out of room with that MO, and the next gen will need some re-positioning to avoid further market share losses I believe.

cp3117

Well said Sebring as you hit it dead on with your statement.

I dont know anyone personally that would ever consider the TL to an A6, 5-Series, E-Class etc and i believe this is why the Auto industry including Acura even stay away from comparing the two.

With the TL now becoming more luxurious and offering more items so that the car is now becoming more competitive with the A4, C-Class etc. You are seeing the price increase and becoming more expensive and on par price wise with BMW, Audi, MB etc.

IMO i think the comsumer is starting to see that the value isnt there like it use to be and that The TL isnt a Premium brand yet like BMW, Audi etc. This i believe can be seen by the large decrease in sales compared to previous months for the TL, while the TSX which is cheaper still shows great value and in turn is becoming Acura's bread and butter vehicle because it is much cheaper and this type of value appeals more to the average Acura purchaser.

PsychDoc

I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand the logic here when you say "on the compromise it provides in the content vs. cost argument." That's precisely why someone would buy the Acura. In the content/cost category it annihilates the Tutonic competition. The only "compromise" that the buyer is making is giving up the presumed presige of the BMW/Audi/M-B marque. Even in their 3 series/A4/C-class iterations, once you start equipping these cars with the features to be found in the TL tech package (seat memory, xenon headlights, SOTA nav system and screen, full ipod integration, hard drive audio system, real time weather/traffic, Zagat ratings, push button start, etc, etc.) you're up in the mid $40's at least. And in reality the TL is more competitive with their bigger siblings (think: 5 series/A6/E-class). The spacious back seat of the TL alone is a huge selling point. Ever try the rear seat of a 3 series, an A4 or a C-class?

(Cj)

Haha, I think I might call up SSFTSX, so that we can pollute this thread . But he's avoiding the 4G TL section, cuz the mods here are stricter than in the 2G TSX section .



LOL, I even got the distinction from one of the mods there as being "one of the worst trolls in over a decade" at that site .

JD23

I might be in the minority, but I would only consider Acura/Infiniti/Lexus and not MB/BMW/Audi for purchase. The Germans make very nice cars, but I have neither the time nor inclination to deal with an unreliable car after spending $50k.

S2000 Driver

You are not alone!

Edward'TLS

A large majority of German-car buyers buy them for the name and for the prestige of owning a recognized luxury brand, not for the car itself. Unfortunately, the Acura brand has no such luck winning these buyers, and will remain so with the demise of the NSX-replacement image-building supercar.

SebringSilver

That's probably true. But I would tend to think that the majority of folks who come on to boards such as these are more likely the enthusiasts who make their car-buying decisions on the actual merit of the car they choose, rather than the prestige in the badge alone. So many people here argue about why their TL is better than a Bimmer, an Audi, or a Mercedes, etc., but in doing so, they talk about the reliability, value for money, and nothing else.

Reliability is only one parameter of the many that are involved in a buying decision. Bang-for-the-buck is another. But even if those arguments were valid, that the Acura's reliability is perhaps better than other brands and that you get more bang for the buck, there are also many areas in which those other brands easily trump the best that Acura has to offer.

I just wish that the posters here would take a step back sometimes, be less biased, and not bash other brands so much in the process of elevating the status of their own car.

SebringSilver

Read my signature.

mr.Honda F1

Do not agree sir, Acura has offer one of the best in market at almost aspects of what the great car should be,But I believe what Acura needs is the TOUCHES "which they start to take little care of it,but not enough yet",So in this point I should agree with you.
*NSX the only succeed Japanese car in the TOUCHES issue "except the beeb sound of ignition key & the horn".

SebringSilver

Believe what you want. I prefer to live in the real world, with an open mind, and to apply objectivity when assessing the things I see around me.

smsTL

iTrader: (1)

dude, I love your comments. They are short to the point and funny at the same time...

blakura

I think Acura has what it takes to take on the Germans and anyone else in tier 1, but right now Acura has the wrong people (designers and those who give the green light to their work) and the wrong marketing. The TL was a great car, but they started screwing around too much with the design (exterior-wise) of the 4G and they sat too long on the 1G and 2G RL before making any attempts to salvage the car