DivinDude

Acura May 2010 Sales: +24.3% over May 2009
TL May 2010 Sales: -13.3% over May 2009

Don't think it is the economy anymore

BigWopHH

I see these threads every month and it makes me wonder what the big deal is. The 4G is more expensive than the 3G, and it now has to compete with a much nicer TSX, including a V6 model. It also has to compete with an RL that hasn't been majorly updated in years, and can be had for much less than years past. The ZDX has since debuted. And with the economy turning around somwhat, no doubt SUV sales will start picking back up. And then there's the rest of the competition to consider...

I don't know--drawing conclusions on these straight year-to-year sales numbers just doesn't mean much to me.

I know the looks are polarizing, but the TL is a great car nonetheless.

graphicguy

Big...I concur. The Acura line up includes a ZDX, a 6 cyl TSX, much fewer base (as in "no tech pack") models available, which are on the lower end of the price scale.

Those numbers don't surprise me. Acura moved the TL upmarket. Is charging more for it. TSX took the 3G TL's place. I'd say that's where the former 3G TL's sales are going, the V6 TSX.

As you say, those numbers really don't tell the story.

compewterbleu

The TSX is pretty much the 3G TL, but it is smaller and lighter and now coupled with a V-6. Friends I know who bought them sighted the reasons why they bought TSX's vs TL's being the V-6 engine, smaller size...not really wanting a bigger car, and price. I was about to purchase a V-6 TSX myself when I opted for the TL. Looking at the TL's size it really can be compared to the 3 series, G, or even S4....it's a much larger car. The engineers I work with agree that size wise and other attributes considered it's an awkward comparison, Sugar Ray Leonard vs Ali...

Pete2010

I always wonder why we care how many cars manufactures sell?
Is this just a way to say my car is better than your car? Really, it's interesting to see, but other than that who really cares?

There are much larger economic forces at work than the numbers show.

compewterbleu

Pete2010, I get the feeling folks are letting others dictate their likes and dislikes with a car. If it was about numbers I would have bought a Hyundai Sonata...especially in this area. I bought Grace because she was what I wanted. The economics at work here are huge. If the economy was like back in 98-99 I'd have my '09 TL , my '01 3.2 CL and a Cayman or Cayenne to park next to them, LOL!

ssim3

Entry Level Luxury
3 series-9,659
ES-5,115
C class-5,089
A4+A5=4,946
G37 both-4,777
CTS-3,489
IS-3,247
A4-3,189
G37-3,372
TL-2,925
Lucerne-2,265
MKZ-2,040
HS-1,360
S60-1

from club lexus putting the numbers in perspective

MyT6MT

+1

TechnoCat

To your first sentence, because this forum has several rabid fanboys who automatically defend the TL 4G and villify anyone who finds flaw with it. And now you disclaim the market data too. If it was selling like hotcakes, you'd probably be crowing about it.

But the larger economic forces? I call BS. If you and winslovtec are to be consistent, you consider Acura an upscale brand; the same forces should impact all their cars... and all of their competitors. But the impact is disproportionately on the TL, with the same model (4G both years.)

It's not a catastrophic sales decline, except that clearly adding 6MT didn't help enough. Make fixing the stupid head restraints might have?

4G Express

Are fan boys in the 4G forum something unexpected?

Pete2010

First off, we only vilify you because every post you make (all 169 at last count) has some comment and then some complaint about the car. You actually can't make one comment without adding how there is something you hate. If you don't like the car sell it, or not, what the F do I care...
But it's hard to take anyone seriously when all they do it bitch. But I've found that some people are only happy when they are unhappy about something...

I don't care how many cars they sell... if they sold 10,000 more than the 3 series I wouldn't care. Why would anyone care? It's interesting to look at, but other than that it's pretty useless.

As for the "larger economic forces" - Acura is trying to move upmarket. It's a larger more expensive car. More importantly, it's a more expensive ACURA. Not a lot of people are ready to pay 40k for a Honda. That's one of the main reasons the NSX never sold more than a few hundred every year.

Their term "Smart Luxury" is a perfect example of what they make. You get what you pay for, and with Acura its well built, long lasting cars that have some nice luxury refinements without going overboard. I needed a quality car that I would easily be able to get 150k-200k miles out of without major service. Acura is well known for that, so that's what I got.

Pete2010

Are fan boys on ANY forum unexpected?

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I think the point of it is that a lot of people aren't pleased with this 4G TL and they're pointing at sales to suggest that the buying public isn't as smitten with this one either, whether it's due to price, size, styling, whatever.

It's valid to discuss it IMO, especially considering the glory days of the 3G that was outsold only by the 3-Series to the current one that beats out a Lincoln and only a few others.

Pete2010

^^ It's clear that Acura/Honda is moving away from it's enthusiast days... Smart Luxury from here on out.

It's quite sad that they keep killing off cars like the NSX, s2000, Prelude, CL, etc... If I was younger I would definitely have moved to a manufacturer that has a sportier range of cars, coupes.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Well I'm not that old and I'm moving off to another brand. The 2011 TSX gets an update doesn't it? Too bad it won't get AWD. I'm done with front drive. Buick GS?

Someone get me a wet wash cloth; I'm considering Buick over Acura.

Smart Luxury = boring, tarted up Hondas to me. My car is tarted up from Honda but they did a better job hiding the Honda roots then.

compewterbleu

Something that we are forgetting in America, we don't have the same economic standing we once had. I've done some research and China has been playing a major role in how cars are designed into today's market, like it or not. Take a look at some of the vehicles sold over there ...a combined January-February sales growth of 67%, staggering. They have the world's largest car market. Wait until India get's squarely on board.

just take a look at this link:
http://www.businessinsider.com/china...massive-2010-3

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Well to add to that we are just getting to the beginning of the era where we drive vehicles designed for the Chinese as opposed to the rest of the world driving vehicles designed for Americans.

I figure it won't be all too long before the Chinese take a serious dive into the auto industry. Right now they aren't close.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

BTW aren't Acuras sold in China too? Or just Hong Kong?

compewterbleu

Yes they are. In fact..http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/vid...76-30666195184

And there are more ads, they are pulling out the stops in that market and why not?

graphicguy

Yeah....China's the biggest market because they have the most people. Problem there is, most people are still living in the boonies and are farmers that can't even remotely afford a car, let alone something that would cost as much as a TL.

Those who do live in the city and have jobs, are mostly hourly workers, where they live in company provided housing in a campus-like environment. They rarely leave the campus as the companies put everything they need right within walking distance. Plus, the factories don't pay enough for them to afford cars, either.

I was in Beijing last month. That's what I observed.

Now, that's not to say that China isn't moving quickly to expand their economy. They are. Culturally and socially, they still seem to be on edge, also. They whisper to foreigners about cultural and social issues in their country. But, they wouldn't dare say the same to their neighbor for fear of being branded a radical or a political malcontent. People still disappear there when they're viewed as a political malcontent.

They also understand the risks associated with an "over heated" economy. There's a lot of money flowing into the country. And, as we all know, money talks and BS walks. There's a lot of money doing some big talking in China, and most of it the government is losing control of.

Still, those who do have the money, and those who can afford something like a TL is expanding at a pretty fast rate. In general, foreign car manufacturers are viewed superior to home grown manufacturers. That perception is right.

While I didn't see any on the road (which is chaos, regardless of traffic laws), I did see TL bill board ads. I would imagine that a TL is at the very top of the heap for any Chinese business person or industrialist. Still, no sports sedan can really be exploited in China. There is a general disregard for traffic laws, lots of gridlock, and frankly, their citizens do not know how to drive (most have had a driver's license less than 3 years).

I still don't see any influence from China regarding engineering or design. Auto companies may do a design that won't offend China. Understand, for most manufacturers, the U.S. is, and will continue to be, there largest market. I can't see that changing (if it changes at all) for at least a generation.

ll_22

I think the trend is consistent by now and TL's niche is just not that big.
I stand my ground in saying that the TL is really a BMW5, MB-E, Audi6, and Lexus-ES equivalent from a size standpoint.
The BMW3, Inf-G, MB-C, and Audi4 are just a bit smaller and have different strengths that amount to their relative success in the current market.

I am consistently surprised by the volume that the BMW3 and MB-C generate as despite the current economy people are clearly still willing to pay the premium for their blend of luxury and performance, however well justified depends on your disposable income and priority I guess.

Like the separate thread about the BMW5 stated, the TL is not at the same level as the BMW5 but it is not priced to be. It is priced to be a "sensible" alternative.

Acura's strategy in the SUV market is more sound, but they really need to rethink their sedan strategy. With more advanced electronics and AWD, the penalty of rear-wheel drive is no longer an issue. They will be better off developing RWD platforms so they can compete performance-wise. Are those numbers really important, no. But the competition is so tight that small things like that matter.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Exactly I've been saying this for years now. They have nailed their SUVs to the board.

Their sedans, not so much. All three of Acuras sedans are all some form of midsize, from the small midsize TSX to the large midsize TL. That makes it difficult to convince a lot of the buying public that one is worth 54 grand and the other is worth 29 grand (yes it's a stretch, but you get my point).

BLACKURA_NY

iTrader: (6)

these threads come up every month....

and yes, im said that the 4G TL doesnt sell, because its the greatest car you can buy for about $38k

HOWEVER who cares? lol.... i LOVE that my car is unique. i live on long island.

over 50% of the cars on long island consist of the 3 & 5 Series BMW... C & E Class Benz and IS/ES/GS Lexus.

i like sticking out.

compewterbleu

I know folks who don't know or understand jack about cars but because they've heard of old heads(older people) rant and rave about BMW's and MB's they buy them with little or no research. It's a status thing.

graphicguy

I'm with you.

I'm sure Acura had a pretty good inkling that moving the TL upmarket, and letting the TSX fill the 3G TL's place was going to take some time. They're sticking with their styling, across the board. So, that's not going away.

Like any car and or model, you're either going to like it, or you're not.

I almost feel like the volume figures should combine the TSX/TL/RL (even though they barely sell any RLs). TSX is where the 3G TL used to be, so it's relevant. TL is a "tweener" that reaches down into the 3 series, and A4 range, but also reaches up into the 5 series and A6 range. Making it a "tweener".

Once the TL's new slot gets more established, then we can compare sales numbers. Who knows? Acura may very well be selling as many as they were expecting to sell given the radical re-design.

I do like being unique with mine, though. I've yet to hear any negatives about it from the people who see it.

compewterbleu

I concur with you. It's almost like they created a niche' for themselves and it's slow developing...if it does at all. I parked yesterday at the movies to see "Splice" and an A4 and a 3-Series parked next to me and in behind me. The size of my TL was prevalent. A couple in a white 3G walked around my car looking and looked at the Audi and BMW and made the comment that the TL is in another category now because it is much larger.

MyT6MT

One other way to look at it is the 3G TL is a great car and loyal Acura/TL owners are not quick to replace their beloved 3G TL.

The 4G TL is better in almost every way than the 3G (looks aside *subjective*) especially when you get in the SH-AWD territory but is it enough to get a 3G owner to upgrade... maybe not because the 3G is that good!

For me is was a no-brainer once I drove it and Acura needs to get 3G owners in one for a test drive so they too (despite it's subjective looks) can see the differences.

Also the 4G TL is nothing like a vanilla Honda IMO. My last 5 cars have been a Honda or Acura. 1 Prelude... 2 Accords and 2 TL's. While my 3G TL did feel some what like a refined Honda my 4G does not. It has a unique personality all-its-own and I love it. My !

TechnoCat

Wow, Petec, grow up already! Are you saying that only fan-boys who love the car should be posting here? Get a clue and get off your soapbox. It's a decent car, but it has more flaws and foibles than I expected for $40K. If Acura would take it back at a small financial hit to me, sure, I'd sell it. But it's a big depreciation hit and the car doesn't suck, it's just not the "second coming" that you and winslovtec treat it as.

In my mind, the 1985 (e.g.) Honda Accord was, for the time, about the same thing. It was for the time luxurious and quiet and peppy-ish and so on. Where Acura is falling down is that, if they use the word "luxury", even preceeded by the modifier "Smart", people will still expect "luxury". Sell it as a "large performance sedan" and I believe it. Sell it as a "technology loaded sports sedan" and I believe it. But leaving out the luxuries kind of negates the word "luxury", doesn't it?

TechnoCat

Keep in mind that you can get an Audi A4 Quattro, a BWM 328 or a Mercedes equivalent for quite a bit less than a TL SH-AWD 6MT. You sacrifice some speed, the technology package and some space, but you gain less controversial styling, a recognizable (and status symbol) marque, and a lot of little luxuries that Acura left off the TL in creating their "Smart" luxury niche.

So it's not really a premium. The value is probably close to the same. It's just the focus - speed and space vs conservative luxury.

MyT6MT

+1

The only negative comment I have gotten are from friends driving behind me that say it looks weird and I totally agree with them. I really don't have an issue with the beak but the rear...

When you walk around the car it looks fine but from a distance or driving behind it, it's fug!

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I suppose it's all left to opinion but I see few ways the 4G is better than the 3G. There's SH-AWD, latest tech, and a little extra room but that's about it.

I don't feel an improvement in ride quality (at least in SH models I should say), it does seem to be quieter though. The interior appears more plasticky with the masses of metal look business all over. It seems less organic. There's barely more cubic footage but the exterior bloated out completely, so packaging went downhill. No new transmission, same engine family with a larger available engine, etc.

Design outside/inside aside, if you took the 3G and gave it the larger engine and SH-AWD it would be better in most ways. Maybe add a bit of sound deadening and the features, then you're set.

Not ragging on your car because I'd rather have yours than my 3G.

compewterbleu

We'll I passed on the 3G. It appeared to be a used bar of soap Honda design. Reviews on it were luke warm at best upon it's arrival. I went a release event in Atlanta and the reception of it was timid. Not until the Type S version did folks began to warm up to it. It was just bland, not a lot of imagination in the styling at all. Remove the badges and it could of been seen to be a design in progress...it looked unfinished to me. They tweaked it, but I was still waiting for something more. Now did they get really funk with the design? For some yes. Ride quality, hard to compare the SH-AWD to the ride of a 280 hp FWD car. Not the same...the 3G is done. It had it's time.



Do you see what I see? Where is the mojo, that magic...truly where?

compewterbleu

as for me, I'm good.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I don't see how the 4G looks much more striking other than the sweet mirrors and the trunk dealio (and obviously the beak!). The basic design doesn't seem much more striking and the 3G seemed a much more different design than the Accord of that time. The Accord was bland and many if not most reviews lauded the Italian styling of the new TL. The new one is generally critisized, so I don't view that as an improvement.


"For 2004, Acura treated its always capable but blandly styled volume-selling sedan to a redesign that had most of our staff wondering if an Italian design house had penned the sheetmetal. The crisp lines, short rear deck, and tightly drawn shoulders (plus a new 270-horsepower V-6) put the TL on many shopper's sport-sedan short lists--and prompted us to add a 2004 TL to our long-term fleet."





"Acura automobiles have never been stylistic standouts, but the TL's taut new skin is distinctly more aggressive: Its wider stance, bigger footprints, and more pronounced fender flares lend a sense of hunkered-down action readiness that goes with the upgraded performance capabilities."

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t_drive_review

"the short overhangs and athletic stance—an aggressive look that all of us found pleasing to the eye and refreshing in the class—the TL has gone from demure to bold, inside and out."

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...pricing_page_3

"The TL boasts the largest, best-furnished interior, the strongest engine, one of the slickest shifters, exemplary build quality, and generally superior esthetics."

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...cura_tl_page_2

princelybug

iTrader: (16)

...

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Better than none right?

princelybug

iTrader: (16)

winstrolvtec

That really depends on what you are looking for. You have already admitted to not minding giving up the TL’s size, space and comfort it offers, while sacrificing handling, power and acceleration, as well as possibly a few features and tech in order to fulfill a desire of having a bit more refined of a package. For some of us that is not an option.

I want a very good overall product at a great price, not for my vehicle to excel in one area and be mediocre at best everywhere else. I would rather a near (compromised) luxury experience with all other areas in high regard as opposed to a better luxury experience but compromised levels of performance, reliability, resale, safety, and cost or maintenance, be it long or short term.

Specifically, the TL SH 6MT that I and you own, presents a valuable alternative to the larger mid sized luxury sedan market that combines AWD and a 6MT, since the only other one available like that is the 5 series. Which is a superior luxury experience but it too is inferior in several noted ways when compared to a $20k less expensive and comparably equipped, yet still as performance capable (if not better) TL. That is not quite what I expect from a $60k luxury sedan especially when a cheaper compromised product measures up nicely and I can buy two cars for the money instead. So as you see it comes down to what one is looking for and whether that vehicle is truly aligned with their priorities or not.

We know how the TL has many flaws that you didn't expect for a $40k luxury car but you rarely consider how other alternatives that you named are also flawed for the same equipped price as the TL to many of us instead. A comparably equipped and priced A4, 328, or C300 is not cutting it for what the majority of TL SH buyers and shoppers are looking for, nor is a similarly priced stock 528, A6 3.2 (FWD), or E350.

You clearly stated that you are disappointed by how the TL lacks in certain areas compared to vehicles like 328, A4, or MB equivalent but also rarely ever acknowledge where the TL is better, after all that is probably why you bought one. It is larger, roomier, more powerful, faster, has more performance capabilities and comes loaded not to have to sacrifice most features. I add that it is also in most cases a better crash tester and safety pick as well as more reliable and offers a better resale and low cost maintenance but for some reason it sounds like you expect more out of the $40k you spent on other things in a TL vs $40k of what you pay for in one of those cars instead.

No, it is not quite the total package but neither is a 328, A4, or C300, which again run the same price when best comparably equipped. Many would argue that those vehicles are a lot further away from the complete package concept than the TL SH is.

We are basically discussing the same principles here only demonstrating what it is each side does well while the other points out where it doesn't. The difference between I and others here is as opposed to yourself is we at least know where are priorities lie in the first place.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

The way you typed that suggests the TL doesn't compromise as much as others for the money. Is that really your position?

The TL ultimately IS a compromise today just like mine was a compomise back in 2004 when I bought mine.
I really hope you aren't trying to say the 5-Series is inferior in "several noted ways". The 5-Series has more room, more features, better materials, better ride, quieter ride, more power, better fuel economy, better handling .... should I go on?

Now as to whether or not it's worth the extra cash, well that's not for you or I to decide.

And many of us would also argue that they are no further away. My wife has a VR6 A4. Compared to a 4G TL, the interior is far better, there are more features, it has a ride quality and quietness the TL doesn't have, it gets better fuel economy, etc. Is it better than a 4G TL? I don't know about that, but it certainly is NOT further away from whatever package you're referring to.

That's before you consider any other vehicles a person might cite as competition as well, such as the Cadillac CTS, Ford SHO, Hyundai Genesis.
Oh please.

winstrolvtec

No, just that it doesn't compromise as much as it's competitive set for what I want in a vehicle in relation to price but that doesn't mean it is perfect. The TL is a compromised luxury vehicle, that includes areas of refinement, certain materials but also features and options but as a whole still decent enough IMO. Maybe not excellent but still good. Since the discussion is not surrounding luxury alone, the TL at the same time is also in no way a compromise as far as resale, safety, reliability, and low cost maintenance go. In those areas it is among the best if not the best.

Why? Is it not possible for the 5 to in any way be inferior to a TL? There are a few areas outside of the whole luxury theme where the TL is actually better, I never said which I thought was a better car. That is not for me to decide for anybody other than myself but the TL does bring a lot of impressive things to table for less against what is arguably the benchmark.

To be clear I am refering to the 2010 5 but some of these things still apply to the 2011. It has more cargo but does it have more passenger room also equipped with a sunroof? Does it have more power and features built to the same price as the TL? What kind of 5 series can you even get for the money of an SH and what does it include? It is actually rated for the same mpg in either transmission when equipped with AWD as it should be when comparing since the SH is AWD. It handles no better, can't lap like the SH can, may have more torque but does not perform any better.... should I go on?

Of course it's for us to decide, we are the consumers. You can disagree but I have already made a decision as to wether or not I feel it is worth it but that is only my opinon and my money, doesn't mean it is right or wrong for that matter.

That's is what I am saying, it's the same concept. The same argument you are making for those cars and the one TechnoCat is making for the 3,A4, and C, I am making for the TL. No one is wrong here but one has to figure out what they prefer and which compromises they are willing to make because they all have their own. A car will have varying positives and negatives depending on who you ask, it's all about making the proper decision for oneself, which is the one that presents the least minuses and the most pluses.

If one feels thay made the best choice all things considered and weren't forced into something and want to express certain dislikes that is one thing but when someone says they could easily give up the TL and what it does well for something that another car does better but instead compromising in other areas, then that person probably made the wrong chioce for their priorities. That's what I am trying to say, I am not trying to deliberately compare cars here.