saturno_v

Let's say that my comparison between a fully loaded TL SH-AWD and the Panamera 3.6 4 is an extreme example bringing one car with a particular high level of value for the money with another that it is particularly expensive for what it offers...

winstrolvtec

I don't know if it's that extreme unless you focus on price alone. The Panamera is said to be a competitor to the full sized flagship sedans like the 7 series, S class, etc and is priced that way but IMO it seems more like a glorified mid level in comparison that for a few reasons could be mixed in with those cars as well.

I don't find the Panamera to be as luxurious or to offer the same type of high end features as those cars it is supposed to compete with. Even some of the new generation mid levels are surpassing it in that regard. Let's even remove the TL from the comparison for those who would not dare to consider a TL in the same breath (and/or for the 4G haters), the Panamera doesn't warrant anymore money than something like a 5 series sedan or the GT variant (which might be more in line).

I know that is mostly my opinion and does have many subjectives attached to it but I cannot find objective or subjective reasons that a comparably equipped Panamera 4 is worth $20k more than the 535ix GT. Maybe I am wrong but I wouldn't mind to hear from anyone who thinks otherwise as I might be missing something.

It's for those reasons I can related to the thread, as the TL can be viewed as a low end mid level and the Panamera as high end mid level regardless of what pricing or perception would have us believe but there are some other factors that contribute to how the cars are viewed and eveybody can interpret them differently but there does not necessarily have to be a right or wrong.

cp3117

I never said you did.

I said it "SEEMS" like you are and as many others have said, in many of your answers you are dangerously close to insinuating that the 4G is better.

Its also true that facts are facts but there is also manipulating facts in order to try and prove a theory and this is what your doing in this comparo.



What is "Classified" is actually more accurate (Although not perfect) than what your using by looking at exterior dimentions. Eg: The VW CC has a smaller exterior and is a 4 seater, yet it has more rear leg room and cargo capacity than the 4G.

When you look at the TL over the last 10 years its interior dimentions havent changed that dramatically, but the exterior dimentions with the 4G have and gives many the perception that its a larger car. Here is also a clip from one of many publications

"Size it Up
While all of the cars in this class qualify as midsize, some are bigger than others. Cadillac, for instance, has two entries in this class, the smaller CTS and the larger STS. Other cars, such as the Audi A6, BMW 5-Series, Infiniti M, Jaguar S-Type, and Mercedes-Benz E-Class are at the larger end of the spectrum. Meanwhile, the Acura TL, Lincoln Zephyr, Saab 9-5, and Volvo S60 are at the smaller end."

Where the Panamera competes is my opinion, but also an informed opinion that appears to be shared with the majority of the industry. The quickest and first place to look is at your own source and link in your original post. Go click on your links and tell us what Car & Driver posts as the top competitors for the Panamera and the TL .


The problem though is that your point is really a moot point being that your comparison is unrealistic.

I understand what your saying about the "Laws of diminishing returns" but i proved to you by showing with your own logic and source that anyone can do an outrageous comparison and once manipulating the facts try to show one is a better value than another (Taurus SHO vs Quattroportte).



I never said reliability shouldnt be taken into consideration. As you stated before though how the luxury factor over the last 20 years has become closer between brands, the same is very true for reliability, safety etc and almost to the point where its becoming a lesser issue for some.

cp3117

I think most of us here know where Acura has intended to market the TL (And it sure wasnt the Panamera). That marketing information has been posted and mentioned many times before and if you go back to that thread you'll notice It was mentioned before you did in that thread your referring too.

You have to realise Saturno that most of us here are Automotive Enthusiasts and not just TL Enthusiasts. Just because we dont agree with you on such an outrageous comparison, doesnt mean we are "Bashers" of the 4G. Most including myself appreciate the 4G for what it is, a nice driving, performance oriented, entry/near level luxury sedan. When you start comparing it to vehicles that are way out of its category, its obviously going to be comical (which you stated it wasnt) or else it was meant to try and justify something and people here are probably going to comment on it.

Either way, to each his own and obviously (like others have said) we agree to disagree.

saturno_v

Again...I think the TL is a much better car for the money than what the Panamera 3.6 4 (I put an emphasis in that particular trim level..the S and the Turbo are another matter) in their respective price range.

Do I "recognize" the "right" to the Panamera to cost more?? Of course I do, there is the brand, the finishing, some technical aspects.....40K more?? That's, again, it's a different story.

Again either a disingenuous or an ill-informed comment....the CC has the same cargo volume as the TL (unless you are taking in consideration the rear seat folded in the CC, tbut that is comparing apples with oranges), less headroom front and back (not much but less nevertheless) less legroom in the front...just a touch more legroom in the back (source: yahoo auto)

I don't know at what TL generation that statement refers to....the TL external dimension (195.5 x 74.0) are a touch bigger than the 5 Series (193.1 x 73.2) Infiniti M (194.7 x 71.1) and Audi A6 (193.5 x 73) with comparable interior dimensions. (source Yahoo Auto)

Again, where the Panamera surely competes with the top sedans you mentioned is prestige and price, I do not see much competitition in "functional" segment...I do not see a typical S Class or 7 Series user (often with chauffeur in tow) cross shopping the Panamera.

And you assumed I was comparing the market segment of the Panamera with the TL...I do not obviously.....it is interesting to notice that no other Panamera market competitor offer 6 cylinder engines as base models at least in the Northamerican market.

However there are not published numbers about interior dimensions of the Panamera so it is all speculation...however given the almost perfect match in exterior dimensions with the TL and the fact that the Panamera has a longitudinally mounted engine I can reasonably assume that there should not be big differences....

Unrealistic from a market segment point of view, very realistic from a functional and performance point of view.

Maybe you proved my point instead, demonstrating in effect that the Taurus SHO may be indeed a better value for the money than the Quattroporte is...however, let's remember, the Taurus SHO has a 6 cylinder engine of smaller displacement and power (where the TL Sh-AWD and the Panamera 3.6 match perfectly) vs, the V-8 of the Maserati, a more utilitarian suspension scheme (MacPherson struts in the front vs. double wishbone) and I suspect that the SHO even fully loaded has less accessories than a base Quattroporte.....however, again I suspect you proven my point indeed...

If you read the statistics and the "words on the street" (user's experience, mechanics, etc..) actually realibility for some brands have deteriorated and there is more diversity in the marketplace...

Evidently someone did not get the message if I did need to post that link......

What about being Automotive informed and knowledgeable enthusiasts? It would not hurt....

You seem to be one of the few that do not "get" the sense of my comparison...too bad....but I'm glad that the vast majority of others did....

George Knighton

25,000 miles on my 2010 TL 6-6 now. Haven't regretted it for a second, and it continues to surprise me how very well it compares with cars that cost thousands more.

George Knighton

Don't get roped into wasting too much time arguing. It is a complete waste of time, and people frequently respond just for a lack of having anything better to do.

:-)