New Ride
04-11-2012, 12:02 PM
#121
Instructor
Thread Starter
I'm not bad mouthing the 535 either..I love it and probably it is in a second strong place after my TL.
I never claimed thet that TL is overall superior to a 535...it may have some details I like more (and so the 535 has some I like more) but definitely equal in terms of capabilities and road feel.
I did choose the TL mainly because I did like the look more and the availability of a manual transmission with the AWD setup.
Sure if you hit hard the option list at some point the 535 becomes overall more desiderable.....but in the process you are well north of 60K.....in fully loaded CTS-V territory in other words....as much as I like the 535....no context
I never claimed thet that TL is overall superior to a 535...it may have some details I like more (and so the 535 has some I like more) but definitely equal in terms of capabilities and road feel.
I did choose the TL mainly because I did like the look more and the availability of a manual transmission with the AWD setup.
Sure if you hit hard the option list at some point the 535 becomes overall more desiderable.....but in the process you are well north of 60K.....in fully loaded CTS-V territory in other words....as much as I like the 535....no context
So, I think you and I, after all of this, are in basic agreement. The 535i is more expensive than the TL. The BMW has more badge appeal. The TL is clearly one of the best bang for buck cars on the road in the sport/luxury (or luxury sport) segment. The TL with 6 mt is a bit quicker. The TL with sh-awd has an always "on" sport/agile ride. The BMW can have a sport/agile ride if in sport mode. The BMW ride is a bit smoother and it is quieter. The edge on engine goes to the 535i. Interior wise, the 535i is definitely quieter, and the look is more luxury, while the TL is more fighter pilot cockpit feeling. Both have extremely comfortable seats (as long as the BMW has the sport pkg with the multi-contour seats). I think the tech features on the 535i configured as mine is, may be a little better. Sound system is close as long as the 535i has the premium sound pkg.
It ultimately boils down to personal preference and how we value things. Clearly if I liked both cars equally well, I would have stayed with the TL. But, for me, I was willing to pay more to get the 2012 535i. I basically bought a smaller, slightly more sporty, far less expensive 7 series.
Here is another interesting perspective.
Prior to buying the '12 535i, I looked long and hard at the 2010 535i (e60) with sports pkg, etc. That car is way more performance oriented than the f10, but the interior looked cheap and outdated to me, and it was a bit of a strange looking vehicle. Cheap, fragile, plastic cup holders that come out of the dash on a $60k car? Seriously? That in and of itself is a deal breaker. I preferred my TL to that car. New, the e60 was about the same price as my 2012 f10 535i, but in that case it wasn't worth it to me.
So it really isn't all about the BMW badge.
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g37guy01 (04-11-2012)
04-11-2012, 12:20 PM
#122
My 535i is pretty well loaded (sport pkg, sport tranny,premium pkg, premium sound, tech pkg, heated seats), so it has about the same things as the tl sh-awd tech pkg. It MSRPs in the low-mid 60s, but I paid just under $60.
So, I think you and I, after all of this, are in basic agreement. The 535i is more expensive than the TL. The BMW has more badge appeal. The TL is clearly one of the best bang for buck cars on the road in the sport/luxury (or luxury sport) segment. The TL with 6 mt is a bit quicker. The TL with sh-awd has an always "on" sport/agile ride. The BMW can have a sport/agile ride if in sport mode. The BMW ride is a bit smoother and it is quieter. The edge on engine goes to the 535i. Interior wise, the 535i is definitely quieter, and the look is more luxury, while the TL is more fighter pilot cockpit feeling. Both have extremely comfortable seats (as long as the BMW has the sport pkg with the multi-contour seats). I think the tech features on the 535i configured as mine is, may be a little better. Sound system is close as long as the 535i has the premium sound pkg.
It ultimately boils down to personal preference and how we value things. Clearly if I liked both cars equally well, I would have stayed with the TL. But, for me, I was willing to pay more to get the 2012 535i. I basically bought a smaller, slightly more sporty, far less expensive 7 series.
Here is another interesting perspective.
Prior to buying the '12 535i, I looked long and hard at the 2010 535i (e60) with sports pkg, etc. That car is way more performance oriented than the f10, but the interior looked cheap and outdated to me, and it was a bit of a strange looking vehicle. Cheap, fragile, plastic cup holders that come out of the dash on a $60k car? Seriously? That in and of itself is a deal breaker. I preferred my TL to that car. New, the e60 was about the same price as my 2012 f10 535i, but in that case it wasn't worth it to me.
So it really isn't all about the BMW badge.
So, I think you and I, after all of this, are in basic agreement. The 535i is more expensive than the TL. The BMW has more badge appeal. The TL is clearly one of the best bang for buck cars on the road in the sport/luxury (or luxury sport) segment. The TL with 6 mt is a bit quicker. The TL with sh-awd has an always "on" sport/agile ride. The BMW can have a sport/agile ride if in sport mode. The BMW ride is a bit smoother and it is quieter. The edge on engine goes to the 535i. Interior wise, the 535i is definitely quieter, and the look is more luxury, while the TL is more fighter pilot cockpit feeling. Both have extremely comfortable seats (as long as the BMW has the sport pkg with the multi-contour seats). I think the tech features on the 535i configured as mine is, may be a little better. Sound system is close as long as the 535i has the premium sound pkg.
It ultimately boils down to personal preference and how we value things. Clearly if I liked both cars equally well, I would have stayed with the TL. But, for me, I was willing to pay more to get the 2012 535i. I basically bought a smaller, slightly more sporty, far less expensive 7 series.
Here is another interesting perspective.
Prior to buying the '12 535i, I looked long and hard at the 2010 535i (e60) with sports pkg, etc. That car is way more performance oriented than the f10, but the interior looked cheap and outdated to me, and it was a bit of a strange looking vehicle. Cheap, fragile, plastic cup holders that come out of the dash on a $60k car? Seriously? That in and of itself is a deal breaker. I preferred my TL to that car. New, the e60 was about the same price as my 2012 f10 535i, but in that case it wasn't worth it to me.
So it really isn't all about the BMW badge.
I agree that the TL interiors are more sport oriented while the BMW is more luxurious, however there are some cheap details on the BMW interiors that are a bit hard to digest on a car at that price.....
In my case (as I think most cases) it did come down to appeal and look...I like the edginess of the TL more, it is a bit more standout for me.
04-11-2012, 12:46 PM
#123
My 535i is pretty well loaded (sport pkg, sport tranny,premium pkg, premium sound, tech pkg, heated seats), so it has about the same things as the tl sh-awd tech pkg. It MSRPs in the low-mid 60s, but I paid just under $60.
So, I think you and I, after all of this, are in basic agreement. The 535i is more expensive than the TL. The BMW has more badge appeal. The TL is clearly one of the best bang for buck cars on the road in the sport/luxury (or luxury sport) segment. The TL with 6 mt is a bit quicker. The TL with sh-awd has an always "on" sport/agile ride. The BMW can have a sport/agile ride if in sport mode. The BMW ride is a bit smoother and it is quieter. The edge on engine goes to the 535i. Interior wise, the 535i is definitely quieter, and the look is more luxury, while the TL is more fighter pilot cockpit feeling. Both have extremely comfortable seats (as long as the BMW has the sport pkg with the multi-contour seats). I think the tech features on the 535i configured as mine is, may be a little better. Sound system is close as long as the 535i has the premium sound pkg.
It ultimately boils down to personal preference and how we value things. Clearly if I liked both cars equally well, I would have stayed with the TL. But, for me, I was willing to pay more to get the 2012 535i. I basically bought a smaller, slightly more sporty, far less expensive 7 series.
Here is another interesting perspective.
Prior to buying the '12 535i, I looked long and hard at the 2010 535i (e60) with sports pkg, etc. That car is way more performance oriented than the f10, but the interior looked cheap and outdated to me, and it was a bit of a strange looking vehicle. Cheap, fragile, plastic cup holders that come out of the dash on a $60k car? Seriously? That in and of itself is a deal breaker. I preferred my TL to that car. New, the e60 was about the same price as my 2012 f10 535i, but in that case it wasn't worth it to me.
So it really isn't all about the BMW badge.
So, I think you and I, after all of this, are in basic agreement. The 535i is more expensive than the TL. The BMW has more badge appeal. The TL is clearly one of the best bang for buck cars on the road in the sport/luxury (or luxury sport) segment. The TL with 6 mt is a bit quicker. The TL with sh-awd has an always "on" sport/agile ride. The BMW can have a sport/agile ride if in sport mode. The BMW ride is a bit smoother and it is quieter. The edge on engine goes to the 535i. Interior wise, the 535i is definitely quieter, and the look is more luxury, while the TL is more fighter pilot cockpit feeling. Both have extremely comfortable seats (as long as the BMW has the sport pkg with the multi-contour seats). I think the tech features on the 535i configured as mine is, may be a little better. Sound system is close as long as the 535i has the premium sound pkg.
It ultimately boils down to personal preference and how we value things. Clearly if I liked both cars equally well, I would have stayed with the TL. But, for me, I was willing to pay more to get the 2012 535i. I basically bought a smaller, slightly more sporty, far less expensive 7 series.
Here is another interesting perspective.
Prior to buying the '12 535i, I looked long and hard at the 2010 535i (e60) with sports pkg, etc. That car is way more performance oriented than the f10, but the interior looked cheap and outdated to me, and it was a bit of a strange looking vehicle. Cheap, fragile, plastic cup holders that come out of the dash on a $60k car? Seriously? That in and of itself is a deal breaker. I preferred my TL to that car. New, the e60 was about the same price as my 2012 f10 535i, but in that case it wasn't worth it to me.
So it really isn't all about the BMW badge.
I don't feel that way in comparison to the F10. Hypothetically, if I was in the market again and could get a monster deal on one (I've heard people getting $10k off) it would be a toss up, or if leasing and the numbers looked good. A lot of times the lease incentive with BMW is a lot more attractive in comparison to the price.
Don't take it the wrong way, in most cases the whole badge thing only applies to the basic 328 and 528 consumers, with or without some equipment. The numbers for people who get the BMW the way you did are a lot less and IMO, it's a clear indicator of someone who doesn't necessarily fit that mold and knows what it is they want for the most part. They are not being swayed by image or perception, at least nowhere near as much.
The difference in what makes BMW able to top the charts in sales year after year compred to some other brands, is the effectiveness of the entry level 3 series and to an extent the range of base 528's. The general buying population can't go down to the BMW dealer and get into a well equipped 335 or 535, etc. The badge has a direct effect on people in the entry level buying range as it does among those just below it in the mainstream Accord, Camry, etc, territory.
IMO that is how BMW gets some of that market because they do not offer products for there. Even if something like a loaded Accord, for example, may be a better fit, the badge suggests that these folks go and get a base 328. It accounts for a large percentage of BMW buyers, not all of them.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 04-11-2012 at 12:57 PM.
04-11-2012, 01:06 PM
#124
What makes BMW able to top the charts in sales year after year, is the effectiveness of the entry level 3 series and to an extent the range of base 528's. The general buying population can't go down to the BMW dealer and get into a well equipped 335 or 535, etc. The badge has a direct effect on people in the entry level buying range as it does among those just below it in the mainstream Accord, Camry, etc, territory.
It is interesting what you say......we had a conversation with BEAR-AvHistory long time ago about how many stripper Bimmers I see on the road and he tried to question the way how I can judge that......well first of all I see droves of 128, 328 (and 325) and 528...same for older Bimmers....tons of 525 and 530 E39 around.
An other detail is that the E90 3 Series and the E60 5 Series when they do not have the navigation package there is a lack of the dash "hump"......and it is very easy to recognize the standard seats from the comfort seat package.
Well I made a point of trying to look for these details for fun since that discussion when I see a BMW and I can confirm that the vast majority of what I see around are "humpless" standard seats 528 E60 and 325/328 E90...now I cannot figure out every other option but to me that is a good indication that these cars are on the light side when it comes to equipment.....
On the other side, the TL tech are easily spotted for the presence of the back spoiler....I can tell you that I can count on the finger of one hand how many "spoilerless" TL I saw on the road......a couple at a dealer, one in Cali and maybe another couple around here..I still remember their colors....one white, a couple light blue and maybe one or two light metallic red.
Now, it is possible that many non tech TL had the back spoiler installed.....
04-11-2012, 01:36 PM
#125
Instructor
Thread Starter
I think the e60 had the hump regardless of whether or not it had nav. The radio and other features are displayed on the screen, but I think the actual screen size is smaller w/o nav. But clearly the non-nav 3 series were humpless and whenever I saw one of those, I thought...cheapskate!
04-11-2012, 02:53 PM
#126
I think the e60 had the hump regardless of whether or not it had nav. The radio and other features are displayed on the screen, but I think the actual screen size is smaller w/o nav. But clearly the non-nav 3 series were humpless and whenever I saw one of those, I thought...cheapskate!
I currently drive a e90 335i with sport/premium/cold weather/Nav and also recently purchased a TL SH-AWD. So as you can tell I am not the 'typical' person driving a stripper 3 series base model. I am an avid 'car guy'.
IMO..both my cars drive similarly, I can give an edge to the BMW in HWY performance like 30-60 or 50-80 because of the turbos..the power is intoxicating. But, I am very pleasantly suprised by the power of TL even given the 'old-school' SOHC technology, lack of direct injection and no turbos.
I cross-shopped multiple brands before buying the TL. To put into perspective I am long time BMWCCA member and have had 3 BMWs (all variants of 3 series including e46 M3) over the past 6 years.
I drove the 535i (sport) and 535xi (non-sport). The sport package makes a world of difference for the seats alone. I still don't know why BMW offers a park bench in the base model..but as stated previously, most shoppers don't care or can't tell the difference..they want the badge and prestige of BMW 5 series.
Anyways..the optioned out car I wanted would have cost me around $61K after discounts with lease rates around $750/month.
So, I drove the TL multiple times at different dealers..every time I told myself I 'must' have a BMW. But in the end, I thought that the Acura was really a good car especially with the AWD and could not be beat for bang for the buck.
I know I am rambling..but the BMW 5er when equipped correctly (not what most consumers get because of $$$) is a great car, but the TL when equipped correctly (like what most comsumers get) is a very good car at a fraction of the cost. What I lose in 'prestige' and a few luxury features (rain sensing wipers/auto dimming side-mirrors/one touch triple turn signals/heated steering wheel/etc.) in the TL..I keep a large amount of $$$ in my bank account which I can use for other things.
So I am not at all disappointed in leaving the BMW family. Differrent strokes for different folks as they say.
PS. I also test drove the '11 MB e350 (4matic) and new A6 quattro. The MB was a complete dog (very slow and devoid of driving feel). I think the '12 models are better because of the 300hp DI engine..but I didn't drive it yet. The A6 felt like a warmed over Jetta (which is not good). I am sorry but I don't get the drooling over the A6 interior (mainly by the car mags), the TL's interior looks and feels much more expensive, especially in the Umber interior that I got.
Anyways..enjoy your car. Next time you buy a new BMW, consider european delivery which I definitely will do when I am up for my next new car.
04-11-2012, 03:30 PM
#128
Suzuka Master
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Winstrolvtec
It is interesting what you say......we had a conversation with BEAR-AvHistory long time ago about how many stripper Bimmers I see on the road and he tried to question the way how I can judge that......well first of all I see droves of 128, 328 (and 325) and 528...same for older Bimmers....tons of 525 and 530 E39 around.
An other detail is that the E90 3 Series and the E60 5 Series when they do not have the navigation package there is a lack of the dash "hump"......and it is very easy to recognize the standard seats from the comfort seat package.
Well I made a point of trying to look for these details for fun since that discussion when I see a BMW and I can confirm that the vast majority of what I see around are "humpless" standard seats 528 E60 and 325/328 E90...now I cannot figure out every other option but to me that is a good indication that these cars are on the light side when it comes to equipment.....
On the other side, the TL tech are easily spotted for the presence of the back spoiler....I can tell you that I can count on the finger of one hand how many "spoilerless" TL I saw on the road......a couple at a dealer, one in Cali and maybe another couple around here..I still remember their colors....one white, a couple light blue and maybe one or two light metallic red.
Now, it is possible that many non tech TL had the back spoiler installed.....
It is interesting what you say......we had a conversation with BEAR-AvHistory long time ago about how many stripper Bimmers I see on the road and he tried to question the way how I can judge that......well first of all I see droves of 128, 328 (and 325) and 528...same for older Bimmers....tons of 525 and 530 E39 around.
An other detail is that the E90 3 Series and the E60 5 Series when they do not have the navigation package there is a lack of the dash "hump"......and it is very easy to recognize the standard seats from the comfort seat package.
Well I made a point of trying to look for these details for fun since that discussion when I see a BMW and I can confirm that the vast majority of what I see around are "humpless" standard seats 528 E60 and 325/328 E90...now I cannot figure out every other option but to me that is a good indication that these cars are on the light side when it comes to equipment.....
On the other side, the TL tech are easily spotted for the presence of the back spoiler....I can tell you that I can count on the finger of one hand how many "spoilerless" TL I saw on the road......a couple at a dealer, one in Cali and maybe another couple around here..I still remember their colors....one white, a couple light blue and maybe one or two light metallic red.
Now, it is possible that many non tech TL had the back spoiler installed.....
Different areas look to have different car mixes. In Seattle about 40% of the TL's are SH AWD while here out of 61 TL in new dealer inventory only 7 are SH AWD.
The BMW 5 Series inventory at the same dealers is 528i (9) 535i (19) 550i (5) The 528's go from 1 at $50K to 1 at $58K.
Maybe people are just less pretentious in Raleigh
04-12-2012, 04:53 PM
#129
Congrats on the purchase KC and nice upgrade.
I agree that Acurazine in general is a very good site, but alot of the credit has to go to the Mods that run the site. The problems your refering too happen here also and you missed a thread awhile ago where some people here were snapping their crayons and insulting the OP because he bought an Audi. The mods here put a stop too that stuff pretty quick which is good.
I had to laugh when "Bear-Av" made mention to a post in the very beggining, as i had the same thought of where this thread was going and sure enough it did. You wont get the name calling here often but you'll get the more modern/mature method of a certain few trying to belittle your purchase instead.....the one with the pictures of the door panel comparison was absolutely priceless.
Congrats again and make sure you still stay around here as im sure others will value your experience as a previous 4G owner.
One of the things I always liked about this forum is that almost without exception, the posts and responses are classy. I come on here showing off my new BMW and not one of you gave me shit. When I started posting on a BMW forum and mentioned I was driving an Acura TL but considering switching to a new 5 series, you should have heard the crap I got about driving a Honda. The most obnoxious comment, that in retrospect was kinda funny, was that it was clear in developing the Acura engine, that Honda had learned a lot from their years of experience builing lawnmower engines.
Anyway stay classy!!
Anyway stay classy!!
I had to laugh when "Bear-Av" made mention to a post in the very beggining, as i had the same thought of where this thread was going and sure enough it did. You wont get the name calling here often but you'll get the more modern/mature method of a certain few trying to belittle your purchase instead.....the one with the pictures of the door panel comparison was absolutely priceless.
Congrats again and make sure you still stay around here as im sure others will value your experience as a previous 4G owner.
04-12-2012, 05:01 PM
#130
04-12-2012, 05:06 PM
#131
Instructor
Thread Starter
Congrats on the purchase KC and nice upgrade.
I agree that Acurazine in general is a very good site, but alot of the credit has to go to the Mods that run the site. The problems your refering too happen here also and you missed a thread awhile ago where some people here were snapping their crayons and insulting the OP because he bought an Audi. The mods here put a stop too that stuff pretty quick which is good.
I had to laugh when "Bear-Av" made mention to a post in the very beggining, as i had the same thought of where this thread was going and sure enough it did. You wont get the name calling here often but you'll get the more modern/mature method of a certain few trying to belittle your purchase instead.....the one with the pictures of the door panel comparison was absolutely priceless.
Congrats again and make sure you still stay around here as im sure others will value your experience as a previous 4G owner.
I agree that Acurazine in general is a very good site, but alot of the credit has to go to the Mods that run the site. The problems your refering too happen here also and you missed a thread awhile ago where some people here were snapping their crayons and insulting the OP because he bought an Audi. The mods here put a stop too that stuff pretty quick which is good.
I had to laugh when "Bear-Av" made mention to a post in the very beggining, as i had the same thought of where this thread was going and sure enough it did. You wont get the name calling here often but you'll get the more modern/mature method of a certain few trying to belittle your purchase instead.....the one with the pictures of the door panel comparison was absolutely priceless.
Congrats again and make sure you still stay around here as im sure others will value your experience as a previous 4G owner.
Let's face it. The age old saying about how a guy's car and certain parts of his anatomy are linked is pretty true. We all get pretty insulted if you tell us our car isn't "good" enough.
04-12-2012, 06:53 PM
#132
Burning Brakes
I spent my money where I thought it was best for me. I don't take this stuff personally, but respond to some of more egregious posts without insulting the poster.
04-12-2012, 07:21 PM
#133
Instructor
Thread Starter
I could care less if someone told me my car isn't good enough. Rather than hurl ad-hominem attacks, I will refute with evidence and a cogent argument.
I spent my money where I thought it was best for me. I don't take this stuff personally, but respond to some of more egregious posts without insulting the poster.
I spent my money where I thought it was best for me. I don't take this stuff personally, but respond to some of more egregious posts without insulting the poster.
04-12-2012, 07:45 PM
#134
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As a guy who prides himself on his superior research & analytical acumen you would have though he would have known that BMW on most models only puts full door pulls on passenger & rear doors. The drivers armrest is kept clear. Either that or he knew the facts & tried to cook the books.
But then giving benefit of the doubt it could be easy to get mixed up because Mercedes uses the same BMW drivers door style pull on all four doors.
04-12-2012, 09:19 PM
#136
I cracked up on that one.
As a guy who prides himself on his superior research & analytical acumen you would have though he would have known that BMW on most models only puts full door pulls on passenger & rear doors. The drivers armrest is kept clear. Either that or he knew the facts & tried to cook the books.
But then giving benefit of the doubt it could be easy to get mixed up because Mercedes uses the same BMW drivers door style pull on all four doors.
As a guy who prides himself on his superior research & analytical acumen you would have though he would have known that BMW on most models only puts full door pulls on passenger & rear doors. The drivers armrest is kept clear. Either that or he knew the facts & tried to cook the books.
But then giving benefit of the doubt it could be easy to get mixed up because Mercedes uses the same BMW drivers door style pull on all four doors.
I bet they have an excuse for the skinny flat standard seats also.......do not make the driver sleep from excessive comfort...
Last edited by saturno_v; 04-12-2012 at 09:21 PM.
04-13-2012, 09:40 AM
#137
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Crack up as much you want...maybe you don't but I do look at every detail when I buy a car....and i do not see that much difference in finishing as the price difference (on similar equipment) suggest......my driver door handle does not create any impediment...I see what I see regardless on what rationale BMW may try to sell.....
I bet they have an excuse for the skinny flat standard seats also.......do not make the driver sleep from excessive comfort...
I bet they have an excuse for the skinny flat standard seats also.......do not make the driver sleep from excessive comfort...
Not sure what it is with you but whenever anyone posts about a new car either more or less expensive then your TL you will find something to piss in their cereal about.
It must really suck not to be able to just say congratulations on your new car, best of luck with it.
04-13-2012, 10:45 AM
#138
Burning Brakes
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I agree with both sides points, but let's face it, this is America, and generally when something costs more, its better.
If your budget is $40-45K, then a TL is (in my humble opinion) the best car you can get in that segment
If your budget is $50-60K, then a BMW or Audi is a great choice
Yes we can argue day and night about reliability, who's AWD is better, who's got the most comfortable seats, but at the end of the day its going to come down to one thing - CASH!!!
The badge, prestige, connotation, etc is everything with car buying. We're not talking about going down to the lot with Dad when you're 16 and getting a POS $5K car - these are big boy toys! The majority of us want the world to know we're doing well by what we drive - its what keeps the market going - you've got all the proof you need that reliability and low maintenance cost mean nothing to the average buyer of these vehicles. They want the prestige, and all the attention that goes with it.
If your budget is $40-45K, then a TL is (in my humble opinion) the best car you can get in that segment
If your budget is $50-60K, then a BMW or Audi is a great choice
Yes we can argue day and night about reliability, who's AWD is better, who's got the most comfortable seats, but at the end of the day its going to come down to one thing - CASH!!!
The badge, prestige, connotation, etc is everything with car buying. We're not talking about going down to the lot with Dad when you're 16 and getting a POS $5K car - these are big boy toys! The majority of us want the world to know we're doing well by what we drive - its what keeps the market going - you've got all the proof you need that reliability and low maintenance cost mean nothing to the average buyer of these vehicles. They want the prestige, and all the attention that goes with it.
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BEAR-AvHistory (04-13-2012)
04-13-2012, 02:18 PM
#139
Now now don't go getting all testy just because your slam dunk door pull point bounced off the rim do to lack of fact checking.
Not sure what it is with you but whenever anyone posts about a new car either more or less expensive then your TL you will find something to piss in their cereal about.
Not sure what it is with you but whenever anyone posts about a new car either more or less expensive then your TL you will find something to piss in their cereal about.
And my example was not limited to the door handle, if you read my post I did give a lot of other details...I do appreciate the presence of the pit and the full handle on my door.
Some manufacturers for example are giving away with one of the front seat back pockets...I'm sure they will find an excuse to rationalize that choice....
Going back to my example I just googled "F10 door panel" and "TL door panel", clicked on images and commented on the first two images I did find with a comparable angle and size.....if they were showing passenger doors I would have commented accordingly...
It must really suck not to be able to just say congratulations on your new car, best of luck with it.
04-13-2012, 06:50 PM
#140
Instructor
Thread Starter
I have taken no offense by anything said by any of the comments in this thread. A lot of good discussion, and a lot of passion about the cars we love (TL,Audi, BMW, etc.).
I have actually been surprised by the number of replies. I expected a few congrats, a few negatives, but certainly not this.
I have actually been surprised by the number of replies. I expected a few congrats, a few negatives, but certainly not this.
04-13-2012, 07:04 PM
#141
6G TLX-S
I have taken no offense by anything said by any of the comments in this thread. A lot of good discussion, and a lot of passion about the cars we love (TL,Audi, BMW, etc.).
I have actually been surprised by the number of replies. I expected a few congrats, a few negatives, but certainly not this.
I have actually been surprised by the number of replies. I expected a few congrats, a few negatives, but certainly not this.
Here are some magic words : "BMW", "MB", "Audi", "Lexus", "Infiniti", "3-series", "5-series", "C-class", "E-class", "A4", "A6", "IS", "ES", "GS", "G37", etc.
The moment you wrote any of the above words inside your 1st post, has sealed the fate of this thread to end up like this.
Not to worry, we all learn something new every day.
04-13-2012, 11:38 PM
#142
"The TL is lighter and quicker on its feet than any 535 I drove...when everybody complain about "porkier" cars nowadays, the TL is lighter than a comparable engined 5 Series (same outside dimensions) and it shows on the road....yes I prefer the 6 inline turbo of the Bimmer compared to the J37, a real gem....but I like more the TL steering...more comunicative..."
Actually if there is one thing that I can ask for to make the 4G TL more fun than what it is, it would be a more communicative steering. I love the drive, the engine, the cornering and all that (I have the 2012 TL SH-AWD) but the steering somewhat lacks feedback IMO. It's nicely weighted but the on center feel is somewhat vague, a better feedback would make lane changing more precise and in general drive more fun. I used to have an old 3 series (E36) and its steering was oh-so-good. The only other car that I have driven that had a similar communicative steering was E46. Prior to the TL I had a Mazda6 and even that had a more communicative (though it was light) steering than what I feel in my TL now. I have not driven the latest 5 series so I can't compare it's steering feel (I have read complaints that the new 5 and possibly the new 3 too have slipped in this department)
I enjoyed reading this thread and in general this forum, very interesting and for the most part balanced viewpoints.
Actually if there is one thing that I can ask for to make the 4G TL more fun than what it is, it would be a more communicative steering. I love the drive, the engine, the cornering and all that (I have the 2012 TL SH-AWD) but the steering somewhat lacks feedback IMO. It's nicely weighted but the on center feel is somewhat vague, a better feedback would make lane changing more precise and in general drive more fun. I used to have an old 3 series (E36) and its steering was oh-so-good. The only other car that I have driven that had a similar communicative steering was E46. Prior to the TL I had a Mazda6 and even that had a more communicative (though it was light) steering than what I feel in my TL now. I have not driven the latest 5 series so I can't compare it's steering feel (I have read complaints that the new 5 and possibly the new 3 too have slipped in this department)
I enjoyed reading this thread and in general this forum, very interesting and for the most part balanced viewpoints.
04-14-2012, 12:49 AM
#143
Pro
"The TL is lighter and quicker on its feet than any 535 I drove...when everybody complain about "porkier" cars nowadays, the TL is lighter than a comparable engined 5 Series (same outside dimensions) and it shows on the road....yes I prefer the 6 inline turbo of the Bimmer compared to the J37, a real gem....but I like more the TL steering...more comunicative..."
Actually if there is one thing that I can ask for to make the 4G TL more fun than what it is, it would be a more communicative steering. I love the drive, the engine, the cornering and all that (I have the 2012 TL SH-AWD) but the steering somewhat lacks feedback IMO. It's nicely weighted but the on center feel is somewhat vague, a better feedback would make lane changing more precise and in general drive more fun. I used to have an old 3 series (E36) and its steering was oh-so-good. The only other car that I have driven that had a similar communicative steering was E46. Prior to the TL I had a Mazda6 and even that had a more communicative (though it was light) steering than what I feel in my TL now. I have not driven the latest 5 series so I can't compare it's steering feel (I have read complaints that the new 5 and possibly the new 3 too have slipped in this department)
I enjoyed reading this thread and in general this forum, very interesting and for the most part balanced viewpoints.
Actually if there is one thing that I can ask for to make the 4G TL more fun than what it is, it would be a more communicative steering. I love the drive, the engine, the cornering and all that (I have the 2012 TL SH-AWD) but the steering somewhat lacks feedback IMO. It's nicely weighted but the on center feel is somewhat vague, a better feedback would make lane changing more precise and in general drive more fun. I used to have an old 3 series (E36) and its steering was oh-so-good. The only other car that I have driven that had a similar communicative steering was E46. Prior to the TL I had a Mazda6 and even that had a more communicative (though it was light) steering than what I feel in my TL now. I have not driven the latest 5 series so I can't compare it's steering feel (I have read complaints that the new 5 and possibly the new 3 too have slipped in this department)
I enjoyed reading this thread and in general this forum, very interesting and for the most part balanced viewpoints.
Then I went back to my Consumer Reports auto issue and found some comment about the steering on the TL not communicating much feedback to the driver and have read some posts here with similar complaint. To me the steering feels perfect.
04-14-2012, 09:29 AM
#144
Drifting
^^ I fall in between the previous two posts. The car is very precise and will go exactly where you point it with very good turn-in. Occasionally, I wish it had better on-center feel, but it has never gotten to the point of annoyance. Overall, I love the feel/handling of the car.
I understand that the MTs steering calibration settings are a little different than the Autos and that SH-AWDs in turn are a little different than the FWDs. Maybe that explains some of the differing views.
I understand that the MTs steering calibration settings are a little different than the Autos and that SH-AWDs in turn are a little different than the FWDs. Maybe that explains some of the differing views.
04-14-2012, 07:52 PM
#145
Three Wheelin'
I'm just seeing this thread for the first time. I traded my Lexus GS350 about 10 days ago for a BMW 550 M-Sport. We still have the '12 TL as it's my wifes. Anyone who thinks the TL is in the same league as a 5 series BMW is living in a fantasy world (I don't mean this as a knock on the TL, but there have been folks who have argued that they are comparable).
04-14-2012, 09:13 PM
#146
Drifting
"Anyone who thinks the TL is in the same league as a 5 series BMW is living in a fantasy world (I don't mean this as a knock on the TL, but there have been folks who have argued that they are comparable)."
Nice car and congrats, but having extensively cross-shopped the two (535 version) and ridden quite a bit in colleagues' cars, I beg to differ, at least regarding the six cylinder version. I agree the TL does not compete with the V8 version you purchased.
Nice car and congrats, but having extensively cross-shopped the two (535 version) and ridden quite a bit in colleagues' cars, I beg to differ, at least regarding the six cylinder version. I agree the TL does not compete with the V8 version you purchased.
04-14-2012, 09:39 PM
#147
Three Wheelin'
"Anyone who thinks the TL is in the same league as a 5 series BMW is living in a fantasy world (I don't mean this as a knock on the TL, but there have been folks who have argued that they are comparable)."
Nice car and congrats, but having extensively cross-shopped the two (535 version) and ridden quite a bit in colleagues' cars, I beg to differ, at least regarding the six cylinder version. I agree the TL does not compete with the V8 version you purchased.
Nice car and congrats, but having extensively cross-shopped the two (535 version) and ridden quite a bit in colleagues' cars, I beg to differ, at least regarding the six cylinder version. I agree the TL does not compete with the V8 version you purchased.
Don't get me wrong, for the price it should. But I told someone the other day that my car feels like the $76,000 it listed for. Yet a lesser model will feel the same other than the power.
I'm not trying to start a pissing match - but after posting above I read the rest of this thread and I see that already happened. I'm the first to say that BMW's cost a lot and there are much better bang for the buck cars. That's why this is the first German car I have ever owned (I've owned LOTS of Japanese cars). But I believe in the law of diminishing returns. That says that incremental improvements over something that is already good costs exponentially more.
That said, anyone who says a BMW is overpriced is right. But if you can afford it and cars are your passion, no harm no foul - go buy one and you'll see the difference. I'm not going to become a BMW zealot. But I am going to tell it like it is.
If you or anyone else doesn't agree with me that's ok. But that's not going to stop me from saying what I'm saying - and keep in mind that I have both cars now (TL and BMW). I think they are both damn fine cars. I drove the Acura just a few hours ago and I still enjoy driving it.
Thanks for your comments BTW. I do appreciate it.
Last edited by jjsC5; 04-14-2012 at 09:41 PM.
04-15-2012, 12:07 AM
#149
Instructor
I think the biggest "issue" with the high end German cars is that they use so much new technology, it can end up being a liability.
When I say technology, I also mean things like the transmission, engine, suspension components, etc. German brands go over the top with it, and I personally like that. They push the limits on a lot of stuff and they definitely charge for it. But the problem is, way down the line, it can come back to haunt you. Its basically the price of admission though. You don't buy a $60k+ car and then not have the money to do repairs on it if needed.
Now, if you did a comparison on a 5 series and a TL based on price only, you would be comparing the cheapest 5 series, a base 528i to a loaded TL SH-AWD Advance. How do these cars stack up? Is the 5 series a better car now?
But that's not the appeal a 5 series. All the available options, exterior and interior colors, wood and metal trims, and engine choices is what makes the 5 series "better". You can't get any of this stuff on a TL, and this is why they're on different levels.
I'm not afraid to say that the $60k 535i I test drove before getting my TL is better than my TL, it just wasn't the car for me, that's all. 5 years from now, it might be.
BTW jjsC5, that 550 looks damn nice!
When I say technology, I also mean things like the transmission, engine, suspension components, etc. German brands go over the top with it, and I personally like that. They push the limits on a lot of stuff and they definitely charge for it. But the problem is, way down the line, it can come back to haunt you. Its basically the price of admission though. You don't buy a $60k+ car and then not have the money to do repairs on it if needed.
Now, if you did a comparison on a 5 series and a TL based on price only, you would be comparing the cheapest 5 series, a base 528i to a loaded TL SH-AWD Advance. How do these cars stack up? Is the 5 series a better car now?
But that's not the appeal a 5 series. All the available options, exterior and interior colors, wood and metal trims, and engine choices is what makes the 5 series "better". You can't get any of this stuff on a TL, and this is why they're on different levels.
I'm not afraid to say that the $60k 535i I test drove before getting my TL is better than my TL, it just wasn't the car for me, that's all. 5 years from now, it might be.
BTW jjsC5, that 550 looks damn nice!
04-15-2012, 12:29 AM
#150
Instructor
Thread Starter
I'm just seeing this thread for the first time. I traded my Lexus GS350 about 10 days ago for a BMW 550 M-Sport. We still have the '12 TL as it's my wifes. Anyone who thinks the TL is in the same league as a 5 series BMW is living in a fantasy world (I don't mean this as a knock on the TL, but there have been folks who have argued that they are comparable).
04-15-2012, 03:22 AM
#151
JJ, first off congrats are in order. That is one of few ways one should get a 5 series IMO, nice choice and an excellent color combo. Now, I don't really want to get into this again but if I had a 550 with M sport, I would probably being saying the same thing about it not being comparable and I agree that those two trims specifically are not, nor is the TL and 5 as a whole and they are not in the same league but I cannot grasp how a 535 and 528 are not comparable in the majority of capacities, not necessarily all.
I agree that the 550 and 535 are not terribly different but them not being comparable on the basis of the way the car feels or drives is a little lacking IMO. No doubt it is an amazing experience, very rewarding however you choose to drive the vehicle and a great luxury sport blend and I am not trying to take anything away but is that the only needed distinction to decide what is or is not comparable?
A Lexus ES drives differently than a comparable TL but I wouldn't go around suggesting it is not comparable to a TL, for example. What I am getting at is how much of the lack of comparability is due to pure superiority in the overall ride and feel and how much of it is just normal variances, differences and interpretations between different brands?
How do you measure such a thing? If it can't be measured or a lot of it is subjective, how can one assign any objective value to it or use it as a deciding factor in what is or isn't comparable? Not drilling you either, just trying to put it into perspective.
Understandably, anything can be compared for the sake of comparison but outside of what is directly comparable to the appropriate 5 series trim, such as a GS, A6, etc, there are those that are the next best thing, like the CTS, TL, Genesis, etc. That's not to make any more of it than what I just said. I am not sure how that is not acceptable, it is borderline factual if not factual already.
I believe it feels like a $76k car because that is what it is, but that's also circular logic. That's not to say that another brand can't produce a directly comparable product for $60k for example, but I think you said it well in suggesting that if you can appreciate it and can afford it, you probably don't need any further justification.
I agree that the 550 and 535 are not terribly different but them not being comparable on the basis of the way the car feels or drives is a little lacking IMO. No doubt it is an amazing experience, very rewarding however you choose to drive the vehicle and a great luxury sport blend and I am not trying to take anything away but is that the only needed distinction to decide what is or is not comparable?
A Lexus ES drives differently than a comparable TL but I wouldn't go around suggesting it is not comparable to a TL, for example. What I am getting at is how much of the lack of comparability is due to pure superiority in the overall ride and feel and how much of it is just normal variances, differences and interpretations between different brands?
How do you measure such a thing? If it can't be measured or a lot of it is subjective, how can one assign any objective value to it or use it as a deciding factor in what is or isn't comparable? Not drilling you either, just trying to put it into perspective.
Understandably, anything can be compared for the sake of comparison but outside of what is directly comparable to the appropriate 5 series trim, such as a GS, A6, etc, there are those that are the next best thing, like the CTS, TL, Genesis, etc. That's not to make any more of it than what I just said. I am not sure how that is not acceptable, it is borderline factual if not factual already.
I believe it feels like a $76k car because that is what it is, but that's also circular logic. That's not to say that another brand can't produce a directly comparable product for $60k for example, but I think you said it well in suggesting that if you can appreciate it and can afford it, you probably don't need any further justification.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 04-15-2012 at 03:30 AM.
04-15-2012, 06:18 AM
#152
Three Wheelin'
Thanks.
Good comments.
I agree. About a year ago I was walking the BMW lot on a Sunday and when I walked up to one with the Oyster interior I knew immediately that if I decided to get a BMW that interior was the only way I'd go - non negotiable.
Thanks for your comments. All I can say is that I've owned many many cars - a few of them top line Japanese cars such as the Lexus GS and an Infiniti M45. I thought the M45 was an awesome car. To me it was the closest Japanese car ever built to a top line BMW at the time (2006). But you truly have to drive the BMW 5 series a little to understand why the owners rave about them. I've ridden in them before, and even driven the last generation a few times. I would not have raved quite so much about them.
But the new one is really in another league. It's based upon the "7" series and if feels like it. The car has a general composure, solidness and almost eerie silence to it that I have never experienced in a car before but I have imagined that this is how an S class Mercedes must drive.
Not everyone will appreciate the nuances of it - especially for what they cost. Just like I have a good friend who owns a $5000 TV and thinks what I have is junk - but I can't tell the difference. But I believe him when he says that he can tell the difference. It's all about what is important to each of us.
I think the biggest "issue" with the high end German cars is that they use so much new technology, it can end up being a liability.
When I say technology, I also mean things like the transmission, engine, suspension components, etc. German brands go over the top with it, and I personally like that. They push the limits on a lot of stuff and they definitely charge for it. But the problem is, way down the line, it can come back to haunt you. Its basically the price of admission though. You don't buy a $60k+ car and then not have the money to do repairs on it if needed.
Now, if you did a comparison on a 5 series and a TL based on price only, you would be comparing the cheapest 5 series, a base 528i to a loaded TL SH-AWD Advance. How do these cars stack up? Is the 5 series a better car now?
But that's not the appeal a 5 series. All the available options, exterior and interior colors, wood and metal trims, and engine choices is what makes the 5 series "better". You can't get any of this stuff on a TL, and this is why they're on different levels.
I'm not afraid to say that the $60k 535i I test drove before getting my TL is better than my TL, it just wasn't the car for me, that's all. 5 years from now, it might be.
BTW jjsC5, that 550 looks damn nice!
When I say technology, I also mean things like the transmission, engine, suspension components, etc. German brands go over the top with it, and I personally like that. They push the limits on a lot of stuff and they definitely charge for it. But the problem is, way down the line, it can come back to haunt you. Its basically the price of admission though. You don't buy a $60k+ car and then not have the money to do repairs on it if needed.
Now, if you did a comparison on a 5 series and a TL based on price only, you would be comparing the cheapest 5 series, a base 528i to a loaded TL SH-AWD Advance. How do these cars stack up? Is the 5 series a better car now?
But that's not the appeal a 5 series. All the available options, exterior and interior colors, wood and metal trims, and engine choices is what makes the 5 series "better". You can't get any of this stuff on a TL, and this is why they're on different levels.
I'm not afraid to say that the $60k 535i I test drove before getting my TL is better than my TL, it just wasn't the car for me, that's all. 5 years from now, it might be.
BTW jjsC5, that 550 looks damn nice!
JJ, first off congrats are in order. That is one of few ways one should get a 5 series IMO, nice choice and an excellent color combo. Now, I don't really want to get into this again but if I had a 550 with M sport, I would probably being saying the same thing about it not being comparable and I agree that those two trims specifically are not, nor is the TL and 5 as a whole and they are not in the same league but I cannot grasp how a 535 and 528 are not comparable in the majority of capacities, not necessarily all.
I agree that the 550 and 535 are not terribly different but them not being comparable on the basis of the way the car feels or drives is a little lacking IMO. No doubt it is an amazing experience, very rewarding however you choose to drive the vehicle and a great luxury sport blend and I am not trying to take anything away but is that the only needed distinction to decide what is or is not comparable?
A Lexus ES drives differently than a comparable TL but I wouldn't go around suggesting it is not comparable to a TL, for example. What I am getting at is how much of the lack of comparability is due to pure superiority in the overall ride and feel and how much of it is just normal variances, differences and interpretations between different brands?
How do you measure such a thing? If it can't be measured or a lot of it is subjective, how can one assign any objective value to it or use it as a deciding factor in what is or isn't comparable? Not drilling you either, just trying to put it into perspective.
Understandably, anything can be compared for the sake of comparison but outside of what is directly comparable to the appropriate 5 series trim, such as a GS, A6, etc, there are those that are the next best thing, like the CTS, TL, Genesis, etc. That's not to make any more of it than what I just said. I am not sure how that is not acceptable, it is borderline factual if not factual already.
I believe it feels like a $76k car because that is what it is, but that's also circular logic. That's not to say that another brand can't produce a directly comparable product for $60k for example, but I think you said it well in suggesting that if you can appreciate it and can afford it, you probably don't need any further justification.
I agree that the 550 and 535 are not terribly different but them not being comparable on the basis of the way the car feels or drives is a little lacking IMO. No doubt it is an amazing experience, very rewarding however you choose to drive the vehicle and a great luxury sport blend and I am not trying to take anything away but is that the only needed distinction to decide what is or is not comparable?
A Lexus ES drives differently than a comparable TL but I wouldn't go around suggesting it is not comparable to a TL, for example. What I am getting at is how much of the lack of comparability is due to pure superiority in the overall ride and feel and how much of it is just normal variances, differences and interpretations between different brands?
How do you measure such a thing? If it can't be measured or a lot of it is subjective, how can one assign any objective value to it or use it as a deciding factor in what is or isn't comparable? Not drilling you either, just trying to put it into perspective.
Understandably, anything can be compared for the sake of comparison but outside of what is directly comparable to the appropriate 5 series trim, such as a GS, A6, etc, there are those that are the next best thing, like the CTS, TL, Genesis, etc. That's not to make any more of it than what I just said. I am not sure how that is not acceptable, it is borderline factual if not factual already.
I believe it feels like a $76k car because that is what it is, but that's also circular logic. That's not to say that another brand can't produce a directly comparable product for $60k for example, but I think you said it well in suggesting that if you can appreciate it and can afford it, you probably don't need any further justification.
But the new one is really in another league. It's based upon the "7" series and if feels like it. The car has a general composure, solidness and almost eerie silence to it that I have never experienced in a car before but I have imagined that this is how an S class Mercedes must drive.
Not everyone will appreciate the nuances of it - especially for what they cost. Just like I have a good friend who owns a $5000 TV and thinks what I have is junk - but I can't tell the difference. But I believe him when he says that he can tell the difference. It's all about what is important to each of us.
04-15-2012, 07:25 AM
#153
Burning Brakes
^^^^^that last paragraph says it all. Just because there isn't a difference you can se or appreciate, doesn't mean somebody else can't see it or appreciate it. Up, down and across.
04-15-2012, 01:56 PM
#154
Pro
I can only imagine these guys "attributes" are microscopic.
04-15-2012, 03:40 PM
#155
Suzuka Master
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04-16-2012, 02:33 AM
#156
The only difference between the 550 and the 535 is the engine. Otherwise they can be equiped identically. While the engine in the 550 is nice, the way the car drives beyond the engine is night and day better than the TL.
Don't get me wrong, for the price it should. But I told someone the other day that my car feels like the $76,000 it listed for. Yet a lesser model will feel the same other than the power.
I'm not trying to start a pissing match - but after posting above I read the rest of this thread and I see that already happened. I'm the first to say that BMW's cost a lot and there are much better bang for the buck cars. That's why this is the first German car I have ever owned (I've owned LOTS of Japanese cars). But I believe in the law of diminishing returns. That says that incremental improvements over something that is already good costs exponentially more.
That said, anyone who says a BMW is overpriced is right. But if you can afford it and cars are your passion, no harm no foul - go buy one and you'll see the difference. I'm not going to become a BMW zealot. But I am going to tell it like it is.
If you or anyone else doesn't agree with me that's ok. But that's not going to stop me from saying what I'm saying - and keep in mind that I have both cars now (TL and BMW). I think they are both damn fine cars. I drove the Acura just a few hours ago and I still enjoy driving it.
Thanks for your comments BTW. I do appreciate it.
Don't get me wrong, for the price it should. But I told someone the other day that my car feels like the $76,000 it listed for. Yet a lesser model will feel the same other than the power.
I'm not trying to start a pissing match - but after posting above I read the rest of this thread and I see that already happened. I'm the first to say that BMW's cost a lot and there are much better bang for the buck cars. That's why this is the first German car I have ever owned (I've owned LOTS of Japanese cars). But I believe in the law of diminishing returns. That says that incremental improvements over something that is already good costs exponentially more.
That said, anyone who says a BMW is overpriced is right. But if you can afford it and cars are your passion, no harm no foul - go buy one and you'll see the difference. I'm not going to become a BMW zealot. But I am going to tell it like it is.
If you or anyone else doesn't agree with me that's ok. But that's not going to stop me from saying what I'm saying - and keep in mind that I have both cars now (TL and BMW). I think they are both damn fine cars. I drove the Acura just a few hours ago and I still enjoy driving it.
Thanks for your comments BTW. I do appreciate it.
So if having a longer laudry list of optional gadgets means "better" then the 528/535 is "better"....
The car has a general composure...
04-16-2012, 07:09 AM
#157
Three Wheelin'
I beg to differ too but, again, I do not want to beat again this old dead horse...congratulaton on your 550...yes that is head and shoulder above a TL....a 528/535?? Not so much unless you consider "better" loading the car with options (at a price...you need to hit the 60K mark and some to have equiparable options on a 535 to a fully loaded TL SH-AWD)
So if having a longer laudry list of optional gadgets means "better" then the 528/535 is "better"....
That is all subjectve feeling..I found the TL quicker on its feet compared to a 535, more sporty behavior, the 535 felt heavier and a worse steering feel....for some that is "better" for others is not....
So if having a longer laudry list of optional gadgets means "better" then the 528/535 is "better"....
That is all subjectve feeling..I found the TL quicker on its feet compared to a 535, more sporty behavior, the 535 felt heavier and a worse steering feel....for some that is "better" for others is not....
BTW, I do agree with you last comment, but that doesn't make one better than the other, it just means that the manufacturers designed in different parameters that some folks will prefer one over the other. A Mazda Miata handles better and has more responsive steering than a Mercedes S550 sedan, but does that make the Miata a better car? See my point? A lot of folks agree that the new version of the "5" series gave up some ultimate handling feel in order to appeal as more of a high end luxury car that still is a very competent handling car. Most folks, including myself, didn't buy the car to handle like a sports car.
They just moved the needle a bit on the spectrum of sport vs luxury. There are tradeoffs both ways. Our TL - especially with the SH-AWD, does feel like the better pure sports sedan of the two, but it also rides a lot worse and has a lot more road noise than the BMW - by a very significant margin. I'd prefer our TL if I was going to autocross or road race one of the cars. But for daily driving I much prefer the BMW, and its handling is still well above average for high end luxury cars. I think that is the point of what BMW was going after.
Last edited by jjsC5; 04-16-2012 at 07:18 AM.
04-16-2012, 08:36 AM
#158
Suzuka Master
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I think overall the BMW benefits by not having to have just one car that fits all. It makes for a lot of interesting choices among the various models.
Of the higher end cars MB, Audi & Lexus are all similar with a full multi platform product line while Honda has to make due with the Accord platform for the TL.
Of the higher end cars MB, Audi & Lexus are all similar with a full multi platform product line while Honda has to make due with the Accord platform for the TL.
04-16-2012, 05:55 PM
#159
Go back and read my posts above. I'm not talking about the bigger engine or the features or gadgets. I have both cars, I've stated my opinion and I stand by them. If you have spent as much time in both cars as I have and you disagree with me then I have no issue with you feeling differently than I do. We just don't agree.
BTW, I do agree with you last comment, but that doesn't make one better than the other, it just means that the manufacturers designed in different parameters that some folks will prefer one over the other. A Mazda Miata handles better and has more responsive steering than a Mercedes S550 sedan, but does that make the Miata a better car? See my point? A lot of folks agree that the new version of the "5" series gave up some ultimate handling feel in order to appeal as more of a high end luxury car that still is a very competent handling car. Most folks, including myself, didn't buy the car to handle like a sports car.
They just moved the needle a bit on the spectrum of sport vs luxury. There are tradeoffs both ways. Our TL - especially with the SH-AWD, does feel like the better pure sports sedan of the two, but it also rides a lot worse and has a lot more road noise than the BMW - by a very significant margin. I'd prefer our TL if I was going to autocross or road race one of the cars. But for daily driving I much prefer the BMW, and its handling is still well above average for high end luxury cars. I think that is the point of what BMW was going after.
BTW, I do agree with you last comment, but that doesn't make one better than the other, it just means that the manufacturers designed in different parameters that some folks will prefer one over the other. A Mazda Miata handles better and has more responsive steering than a Mercedes S550 sedan, but does that make the Miata a better car? See my point? A lot of folks agree that the new version of the "5" series gave up some ultimate handling feel in order to appeal as more of a high end luxury car that still is a very competent handling car. Most folks, including myself, didn't buy the car to handle like a sports car.
They just moved the needle a bit on the spectrum of sport vs luxury. There are tradeoffs both ways. Our TL - especially with the SH-AWD, does feel like the better pure sports sedan of the two, but it also rides a lot worse and has a lot more road noise than the BMW - by a very significant margin. I'd prefer our TL if I was going to autocross or road race one of the cars. But for daily driving I much prefer the BMW, and its handling is still well above average for high end luxury cars. I think that is the point of what BMW was going after.
Definitely the available adjustable suspension setup of the Bimmer helps.
Do not forget that you drive a 550 and 100 extra HP and more torque definitely help to feel more a "supple" driving (everyday driving or spirited)
The 535 was a touch less noisy of a TL the TL ride is a tad more firm but not harsh (for me).
I would not use the term "on a different planet" to describe the two or accusing someone of living in a "fantasy world" when comparing a TL with a 528/535
I agree with you, they are different....if that is viewed as superior is depending on the personal perspective (wanting more sporty/edginess or more comfort).
Last edited by saturno_v; 04-16-2012 at 05:58 PM.
04-16-2012, 06:06 PM
#160
Drifting
I think overall the BMW benefits by not having to have just one car that fits all. It makes for a lot of interesting choices among the various models.
Of the higher end cars MB, Audi & Lexus are all similar with a full multi platform product line while Honda has to make due with the Accord platform for the TL.
Of the higher end cars MB, Audi & Lexus are all similar with a full multi platform product line while Honda has to make due with the Accord platform for the TL.
But I do grant you that MB/Lexus/BMW do have a higher number of dedicated platforms. Audi, however, does a fair amount of platform sharing with VW. But to my mind, if a platform works (see quote above), why not use it?