g37guy01

Invariably "the badge" gets brought into these conversations. Unfortunately Acura has a badge issue as well. As I said in another thread they have to fix their badge problem. BMW does not have to fix "their badge".

I can't believe these types of threads get cr@pped up by this type of junk.

And as an unbiased observer, idiots hanging around forums are not reserved specifically for German marquees.

saturno_v

Acura does not have a badge......never did......

g37guy01

I call that stylized "A" on the front of every Acura a badge.

saturno_v

Sure even Kia has a "badge".....or Hyundai....

BEAR-AvHistory

Agree, there are Badges for Badge snobs & then there are also Kia/Acura/Hyundai badges for the unsnobs that don't want to be caught dead in a Chevy.

winstrolvtec

Agreed, even Honda could be considered to have more of a badge than Acura, just not in the luxury sense. Acura is not much bought for it's badge, it's more about the vehicle itself and maybe the cost effectiveness as opposed to the badge, although I'm sure it has something to do with it but not nearly as much. Clearly they know it and we know it, that's why there has been strong efforts to change that. More movie and commercial involvement as well as more expensive flagship offerings, for that trickle down effect, etc, etc.

Having said that, I still do think there are good reasons to want or to get a 5 series (etc) over a TL. Now whether it's truly worth it in comparison, or if one can justify it, is another story.

saturno_v

Sure there are for some...if you are dead set on a RWD, a 5 make a lot of sense.....and, let be clear, the 5 series is an outstanding sedan.

Still I do not have any feeling of "envy" towards a similarly powered 5.....

g37guy01

Isn't that considered buying for "the badge"? People who can't afford a BMW but want to step up from an accord, buy the TL badge.

moych1

Hi guys - I also would like to share my bad experiences with BMWs.My first one was a 1991 318is - i'm from NY and that car was never used in the winter,after 3 winters the computer and some electronics went bad and the dealer won't cover the problems- had to get rid of it.Forward to 2006 - bought a brand new 525xi -owned the car for a total of 18 months and 6months of that I was driving a loaner.The BMW had multiple problems and issues-parts had to be ordered and shipped from Germany etc. Same with our friend from Skokie (gkon) the final straw was when I almost got hit by a semi on the LIE.I was doing about 65-70 mph when the 525 went into the limp mode - from 70 to about 5mph with a semi behind me fish tailing.My dash was like a Christmas tree all the lights came on and all the warning messages on the screen as in transmission malfuction,awd malfunction ,dsc malfuction etc. BMW said the earliest I can be towed was 2 to 3 hours. Managed to get home doing 5mph. Car was towed to dealership the next day and after a day of servicing they found water under the passenger seat where the computer and diff modules were located.The dealership started blaming me for leaving the windows open in the rain.Did not get any help from BMWUSA - they said they have the best technicians in the business and whatever they say happened happened and would not cover the repair. After numerous e-mail and phone calls and a call from my lawyer they finally agreed cover the repair but with a warning that any problem that arises from the water damage in the future woulld not be covered by warranty. Just imagine an 18 month old car with
less than 18k miles on it w/o coverage.Car was in the shop for a week and the same day i got it back - went straight to an Acura dealer and traded it in for a brand new MDX.

saturno_v

Not really....the TL cost a little bit more than an Accord and it gives you a little bit more than an Accord....the price difference is aligned (IMHO) with the value and content difference....I do not think many people buy Acura for the "badge"....definitely in less number than people buying more established luxury brands like BMW or MB.

Edward'TLS

Agree, especially that the RL badge and the ZDX badge aren't working at all.

Steven Bell

iTrader: (2)

LOL....I'm still likin' the new Camaro. Anxious to get behind the wheel of a ZL1.

winstrolvtec

To an extent everyone probably buys because of a badge but we are focusing on the likely degree of being swayed one way or another primarily because of a particular badge. In your example it exists for both BMW and Acura but even that suggests the BMW badge has more appeal and the Acura is being settled on. So they both have badge appeal, all cars do but it's about how much and the impact it has on car buying decisions.

Honda to Acura is not really the same exact point being driven, it is similar no doubt but the starting points are off. The TL FWD is considered a "move up" from the Accord but they are not on level playing fields to start. One is a mainstream product, the other an entry luxury sedan. The TL is unanimously a move up and has the premium content to justify a premium. In other words, the "gap" is there and well recognized to note the distinction, whether an individual feels it's worth it or not on a personal basis is not what I'm talking about. Here's the difference in what I am saying and I'll frame it in the form of an example:

If there are two highly comparable and competitive products that do much of the same things, have the majority of the same features, are considered to be on the same level and the buyer does not know anything about either of the brands or what their reputation or public perception is, has seen no ads or read any reviews, etc and the driver has tested both out and naturally they both have their strong and weak points like anything else but overall are considered to be different but equals.

Now here is the catch, one undercuts the other by a significant amount when comparably equipped, so is there anything present to influence that individual to choose the more expensive product over the other? Which do you think he or she would pick in this case?

You might be very familiar with this concept as I think the G37 vs 335 is a perfect fit for this scenario. They are regarded as different but equal and on a larger scale of things, the 3 is not considered to be a move up. Maybe on an individual basis but not in general and not to the extent of the difference between an Accord and TL. It's not like anybody ever suggested that you should not compare them because they are too far apart.

So what is it about the 3 series that makes so many pay a large premium in one way, shape or form, or go without the bigger, comparable engine or similar features and equipment to keep them priced much closer? Is it really that much better? Or could it be that it has a lot of help from outside factors, many of which have almost nothing to do with the car itself.

For the record, I am not saying this is the case for everyone, just most, especially of the general buying public. You know where I stand on this but I'm curious to see where you do especially with the example now shifted off the TL and Acura (for anti-sentiment purposes) and onto a car you own since it's about the idea and concept after all and not necessarily the brands or the vehicles.

FanaticFan

Congratulations on the 535! It's a great car, with distinctive feel. I think you probably know the risks you're taking with reliability; if I were to get a BMW (first car I ever drove was a 2002, my brother had a 2002 Tii for years), I'd definitely get the extended warranty, well worth the money.

I think the whole discussion about badge/brand has to do with the fact that once you're starting to pay for what is marketed as a luxury car, you're paying a significant amount of money for perception, beyond investment in the actual R&D and manufacture of the car.

BMW probably has invested more over the years than Honda/Acura in marketing perception. Audi no doubt gained huge market share once Iron Man, the movie, came out, featuring the R8 as its main protagonist. As an owner of those cars, you're paying in part for that investment. It's like paying for an iPhone; in part, you are paying for those fancy plastic bags and shiny Apple Temples when you buy one.

Acura has been a brand, since its inception, where there's been less investment all around, both in R&D and in marketing. It's only now that Acura's hit a point where they're really starting to stand out as a brand, and even so, the marketing stumbles with RDX and ZDX, have complicated things.

For me, BMW has always been about really being on the cutting edge, with the benefits and the risks that come with that. Total high-wire act, and you join in the performance as an owner. Acura, like Honda, is more about balance. Sure, Honda has had many years of successful racing experience, but every passenger vehicle they release is a study in balance of factors. Acura's had a hard time selling that brand message, as it's not as intrinsically a sexy one as being always on the edge, especially outside Asian cultures. But for me, the brand value has always been in that notion of balance. Performance, quality, reliability, comfort and style: all of those things, in balance, with no excess.

That's what I like about Acura.

kc1953

Well, I don't want to bad mouth the TL because I think it is a great car. But I like the BMW because of the way it looks, rides and handles. In my opinion the tl-shawd is not really comparable. A very nice car that I enjoyed, but not comparable to the 535i, in my opnion from a perspective of a balance of luxury, performance, ride quality, and looks. But that is just my opinion. If I would have wanted an M5, or an E63 AMG, I would have bought one. But I neither wanted nor could use that kind of performance in my day to day driving. But that is just me. I am perfectly comfortable with the fact that you are not the least bit impressed with the 535i. I didn't buy it to impress anyone but me.

And I never used the term jealous. I think the term was envy.

g37guy01

Im with you, I thinkthe 535 is a step up, and has a better balance of luxury, performance and looks than cars in this class, including the G and TL.

While there may be some opinions that a TL is comparable to a 535, I don't see it. But to each their own. To those who say you better start saving up for the repairs...who cares? Drive it like you stole it, which is the way it mean to be driven anyway.

Good luck with the vehicle and yes, I am envious. The 535 is not my dream car, but a beautiful piece of machinery never the less.

JM2010 SH-AWD

On a pure performance standard both the G and the TL are comparable to (and in some categories, better than) the 535, especially in an MT to MT comparison. People keep saying the opposite, but the mag numbers I've seen have them both absolutely competitive. (E.g., Car & Driver 0-60 -- TL 6MT= 5.2; 2011 535 6MT = 5.7; 2011 535x = 5.7).

g37guy01

I've driven the 535 extensively, there is a certain smoothness to the car, overall, that is not present in my G. According to some of the posts here dealing with lag and "harsh ride", it does not appear to be present in the TL either.

g37guy01

@winstrolvtec; I first want to complement you on your posts. They are always well though out and cogent.

However, you seem to be reducing this to that cars have 4 wheels, brakes, accelerator pedal and a steering wheel.

BMW, Infiniti, Acura all names with cachet, but the execution is different. Value is a personal judgement and your definition of value probably is vastly different than mine. Although at a basic level we can agree getting more for less. But what is "more" and what is "less". Only the individual can decide that.

I don't think BMW sells a lot of $60K 335s, that's not where the sweet spot is. At $60K one is into M3 territory.

Where I am going with this, is while you can compare each car, nut and bolt to nut and bolt, spec to spec, at the end of day, there is a difference in execution that a potential purchaser makes a buying decision over. This is an individual decision where the purchasers value judgements decides what is best for them.

You can't figure this stuff out. BMWs strategy is to get an entry level purchasers hooked with the 3 series and hope they will graduate to a 5 or 7 series.

When you get a TL, where do you go?

winstrolvtec

Thank you and likewise. That is correct, I try to reduce it to the most objective as possible of a comparison. It is not an easy thing to do, kind of like walking on egg shells but it can be done but I also agree 100% that everyone assigns more value depending on what they like better and what they need to an extent but I think you can draw a line there and truly identify with what is actually warranted and justified and what is not, as opposed to if I'm simply ok with paying extra for something or not and whether I can afford it or not simply because it is or isn't what I prefer.

I have to get that distinction across because it seems people don't realize this. I am not knocking the part of what you are saying, everyone can do what they want and what makes them happy but that doesn't mean such a distinction does not actually exist simply because the majority ignore it or write it off as something completely unidentifiable.

What you are saying always comes into play but what I am also trying to get at is that after a certain point, it no longer has to. What I like to do is first identify what it is I would like in a car, that's the only part I assign the majority of the subjective value too. For example, I wanted a luxury mid size AWD sedan with a 6MT. I had two options at the time so it was not that difficult but beyond assigning value based on the car as a whole, I don't want to really assign any further value once I know what my options are out of my finalists, which are usually always the same type of vehicle, when they are not, it is going to be more individual based.

By doing that, it means I am not going to assign (let's say) BMW any more value because it has a firmer steering feel, sporty demeanor, etc. I take an indifferent approach to those elements because there is no right or wrong answer when it comes to any of that, which we can agree on, and most would but then why do so many people assign value to otherwise equal products simply because of those things? It's seems like a bit of a contradiction to me.

BMW built a great reputation on it's driving character but Lexus also built a great reputation on theirs, which is considered to be the opposite type of demeanor. How can I say who is right or wrong in this instance? How can one say BMW should be able to charge a premium for theirs while Lexus can't? If one needs a specific example, think IS and 3 series.

Turns out I really do like the way Acura balances things out in those areas, so like others, I am able to identify what it is I prefer as well but I still would not go as far as to say it's what everbody should strive for and it warrants a premium. I think that goes back to what you are saying about each brand having their own type of execution and many times of the same exact type of vehicle and I totally understand people making the individual decision but you can also appraise or get an idea of what certain features, refinements, performances, size and space levels and other objective items should cost by looking around the industry. It's how those types of arbitrary values are assigned in all other professions.

Another example is if you are comparing something like a C class, 3 series, and A4 which depending on the model and equipment they usually tend to price out within a few thousand dollars of each other so I can understand that being a totally indivdual based decision but when the G, TSX/TL, IS are also considered equals but different (for the most part) yet still manage to undercut them, you can break those things down further and ask the tough questions of what am I paying for or is it really justified outside of personal preference? How do I even identify that? And it does not have to be a very subjective thing at all, just take a good long hard look around and fairly appraise the differences.

So when you are comparing the maket's assigned values for the omissions, additions or differences as well as combining that with what you value individualy, IMO you can get the best vehicle for your values as well as what you can also identify as a legitimate dollar value.

As far as you last point, you hit BMW's structure right on the head but Acura almost has that finally. When I am through with my TL, I could probably go TLX or RLX next, maybe MDX depending on where I'm at and if I am fortunate enough, evetually the NSX.

kc1953

When I spoke of comparability, I was not soley focused on 0-60, slalom times or skidpad g's. I was focused on the balance of performance, style, luxury and technology that the 535i has. Remember, I just came from a TL-SHAWD Tech so I am very familiar with the charm of that particular brand of TL. It is sporty, quick enough (in auto tranny trim/and downright quick with 6mt), reasonably agile, with good technology, and a really appealing interior with really comfortable seats, reliable, and probably the one of the best $40k car around. However, it is entry level luxury, not full-on luxury. The quality level just isn't the same as the 535i. Take a careful look at both cars, interior and exterior and you will see what I mean. And while with the push of a button I can change the suspension and transmission characteristics of the 535i from a relatively soft ride to a firm and sporty ride, it is always a smooth and quiet ride. Whereas the TL SH-AWD has a sporty ride, but it is ALWAYS a harsh ride. While that has a certain appeal to it, there are times when you really don't want to feel every bump in the road.

So, this will be my last post on the subject. The TL is great and a great value, but measured broadly against both the objective and subjective, I really think it is a stretch to say the TL and the 535i are "comparable".

Edward'TLS

The G and TL are not in the same vehicle class as the 535.

People are more than willing to pay $50K for a 535, but will run away from a $50K G or TL.

FanaticFan

Once you get into paying more than $25k for a car, you're really getting into relative subtleties of preference, assuming you are not taking them out regularly for track racing.

Just as a brief example, I'd say the leather used for the 535's seats is probably better quality than the leather in the TL.

Pay for those sorts of things if they matter to you, or don't if they don't.

saturno_v

A purely mattrer of branding...people will fork 40K for a 4 cylinder 328.....

saturno_v

Standard seats on a 535 is not even real leather....the the padding and lateral support is ridiculous compared to the TL...you need to get the updated seats on the 535 to do better than the TL....they do not come cheap...

saturno_v

People keep talking about execution, "general feelings", "quality"


Kc1953, just tell me the "quality differences" between your TL SH-AWD tech and your 535....where it is??

Yes you can have as an option on the 535 the suspension and transmission tuning, we have the Torque Vectoring on the TL....why what the Bimmer has is better than the TL?? On what objective measure??

I see no difference in quality of assembly whatsoever.....I see some more luxurious trims pieces on the 5 Series (they better give you that at that price)

Tell me how more luxurious is in terms of amenities a 55K 535 compared to a 45K TL...

The TL is lighter and quicker on its feet than any 535 I drove...when everybody complain about "porkier" cars nowadays, the TL is lighter than a comparable engined 5 Series (same outside dimensions) and it shows on the road....yes I prefer the 6 inline turbo of the Bimmer compared to the J37, a real gem....but I like more the TL steering...more comunicative...

Yes a 70K 535 will have more accessories and amenities of a 45K TL...duh!! .that does not necessarily make it a better car..it makes a more optioned one....

Guys quit the mental masturbation please...you like that car and you think is worth the price..fine....do not try to self convince you about superiority....

And please stop bullshitting about "The TL is based on a FWD platform"...well, suprise, the A6 is too......it is a FWD car in its base form.......but the A6 is the unequivocally accepted 5 Series competitor....

Use your head...not what the marketing department and car mags want you to think...

If Acura made uber luxury cars that helped its image and perception we would probably not have this kind of discussion.....

winstrolvtec

I don't think the TL is on the level of a 5 series as a whole and there is no question that when properly equipped it is a more luxurious and refined vehicle than any TL. It also has more avilabilities in higher end engines and features plus there is better quality in materials present (but I wouldn't say better build) and for the money it should at least have those things going for it.

As far as not being comparable, we are all comparing as we have this discussion so I don't know about that. To be fair, there are only a few trims and alignments that should be compared. For example, I do agree that a TL FWD is not comparable to a loaded 550i. While it is true that you can compare anything for the sake of comparison, this is not a Honda Civic compared to a 7 series.

You would compare the RL to the 528/35, you would compare the TL SH to the RL, so why not also to the 528/35. I understand that it is not the best comparison but it is also not the worst so that is still comparable IMO, as there is not enough of a gap there specifically.

And let's not go into the cross shopping and price points thing because even a comprably equipped 3 series is $10k more expensive than a TL. If I am supposed to only compare to a smaller 3 series and I want it as equipped as a TL, I have to spend $10k more, but I could just as easily use that same $10k and get into a base/moderate to well equipped 528 or lower end 535 depending on which TL and 3 I was looking at.

Maze

New guy here...ditto my experience with BMW. Everyone says "don't own one outside of warranty" but my two-cents says they're not fun owning even with warranty. You will get to know your local BWM service manager so well he'll probably invite you over for holidays and weddings. IMO, the "badge" of BMW is highly overrated.

saturno_v

Bingo......nobody has ever compared a TL to a 5 Series as a whole but with the entry/mid level for the 5 Series, the 528 and 535...is a fully loaded 70K 535 more luxurious than a TL?? You bet.....but more luxury however does not necessarily translate into a better car (dynamically)
I can assure you that a TL SH-AWD is a superior car to a 4 cylinder 528.....


On the same logic, the A6 in its current form (3.0T) cannot be considered as a competitor to a 550i........

winstrolvtec

Yes... more luxury does not make a better vehicle as a whole, it's makes a more luxurious vehicle with a higher price tag to justify and that's about it. I can't tell you how many times I have tried to get that point across here when I first got the car 2 years ago.

Things like reliability, resale, and safety are core attributes that make a well rounded vehicle and IMO are major components in deciding if something is a better or worse all around vehicle. Luxury simply goes up or down with the price but those other elements are a constant, constantly good or constantly bad.

g37guy01

My vacheron constantin watch does not keep time any better than my $25 timex.

While the 528 will not win an 0 to 60 against the TL, I can guarantee it has a smoother ride than the TL and G. In addition, for those inclined on loading up the thing with tech, there is tech available not available on the Tl or G. (I know TV, but there may be people who are happy it's not on the 5 series).

saturno_v

You cannot guarantee something you never tried.....I personally find the FWD TL very smooth.....my SH-AWD is definitely firmer but still very comfortable....not noticeable difference with the 5 Series I tried...

So on your logic the BMW tech extras counts, when we bring TV it does not count....interesting....

Still bringing parabolic comparisons....your Constantin is a totally different piece, material quality. finishing, etc...

There is nto noticably difference in the fit and finish of a TL with a 5 series other the already mentioned few higher value trim pieces....in any measurable aspect of construction and dymanics the 5 is not ahead......the only objective higher points are more tech available (optionals) and the above mentioned higher value trim pieces...that's about it.....


Perception...I remember in the past when a car magazine (I do not remember which) said that a 4 cylinder car could not really be considered luxury (they were talking about the TSX) when BMW does it it is "intelligent downsizing".....

g37guy01

IMO, the 5 series looks better and feels better and has better quality materials. So I do think there is a difference to the fit and finish of the two.

If TV were all that Acura would be the iphone of the automotive world. Maybe it's acuras implementation that is the issue, not the concept itself. I don't know.

DannyZRC

The TL is available in a relatively small number of configurations, and competitive configurations of the BMW can't compete on value with the TL, not even close.

Beyond this, BMW charges more because they can because of brand perception, over and above any additional engineering money they sink into the cars (which they can more easily afford, on account of higher selling prices for similar goods.) Of course a 55k BMW can be better than a 45k TL, BMW had 10k more to work with. Almost all comparisons with german cars hand-wave away the price premium, and it's starting to stick in the popular consciousness that "it's ok for german cars to cost more, that's just how it is." I'm not a fan.

You certainly can fool all of the people all of the time, the tulip bubble, the dot com bubble, the real estate bubble, etc etc. People are not "rational actors."

People can do what they want, I don't want to salt anyone with accusations of BadWrongFun, but people work backwards from "I bought it" to "because it was the best value" when really, a contributing factor was "because I wanted it" and the messy business of social influence, status display, and all that fun stuff definitely factored into "because I wanted it."

xldou

I do agreed, being a former BMW and Audi owner, the number of times and the cost of taking the car to service/repair is frustrating as soon as the warranty is over. As I need a reliable and worry-free vehicle for my work, I have stayed with 3 TLs now...

Edward'TLS

In terms of a reliable and worry-free vehicle, the 2G TL, that came standard with the tranny from hell, definitely wasn't one.

winstrolvtec

And I bet you it doesn't handle or lap as well, those things go hand in hand and it is largely a subjective quality. Many Lexus sedan models ride really well, better than a 5 series and handle for nothing or worse in comparison, does that make it a better car?

Now if it handled better and outlapped those cars will riding smoother, than I would be impressed and feel the premium or lack of content was better justified.

And the materials are the only thing that can carry any objectivity and not 100% even at that. The rest is all subjective, material value that does not actually exist but you assign to it.

TV is not all that but for AWD it could eventually be a standard (at least as an option) and it is a movement that Acura helped start and create. Unfortunately other brands marketing tries to make it seem like every car with ABS has active transfers and torque vectoring, so the ignorant folks ruin it for everybody.

saturno_v

Danny.....I could have wrote that comment myself....I agree completely...but I think you been way optimistic...a 55K 535 is not going to be better than a 45K TL....you need to spend more......to outpace a TL in terms of equipment you need to fork well north of 60K for a 535....


A small photo detail....the door panel of a 5 Series and the door panel of a TL.....not noticeable difference in fit, finish, hinges thickness and support, rubber seals thickness/coverage and overall "richness" feeling......the BMW probably has the real wood trim while the TL has the nicely textured PVD (Physical Vapor Deposition) real metal trim (I lost count of many ignorant statements about the trim pieces of the TL being "painted plastic") which gives you the touch feel and appearance of real metal (well it is real..) without the weight (it is layered on a plastic base and even the "real" wood trim is a veneer anyway).

If I remember correctly the lower part of the panel in the BMW is softer plastic vs rigid for the TL.

The TL has a real door handle (very solid feel and nicely textured with a rubber insert in the back) while the Bimmer has the standard "finger pit" found on more economical, mainstream cars.

More accessible document holder for the TL.










....so between these two cars someone has the guts to speak about Cartier Vs. Timex...can you believe that???

When I buy a car I look at all details, I do not stop at reading brochures or car magazines....


Unfortunately, Danny, you are absolutely right, buying public is not rational in the least...no wonder the marketing executives of companies are among the higher paid people in the payroll....

g37guy01

These are not meant to be track cars. While it's nice to get anecdotal evidence of the vehicles prowess on the track, most car BMW buyers want a good street vehicle. I would think by the sales numbers, the 328/528 must have something going for them. Remember you can't fool 100% of the people 100% of the time.

g37guy01

The reason I brought up the watch, was different price points, different execution same mission. Whether you feel the vacheron is something you want to buy there is a market out there for them, just like the 5 series...arguing the definition of "better".