Negotiating price on TL?
12-23-2008, 10:08 PM
#41
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Damn this thread is priceless! If somebody calls me asking for my best price over the phone I ask him if he/she is looking to make an offer with their credit card and driver's license number. Any salesman that gives you their "best price" over the phone has no balls.
Best way to negotiate a deal is to create a relationship with your nearest dealer, be honest and sincere and don't ask for invoice right away. When you buy from the dealer you'll be servicing at, you'd be surprised how much better treatment you'll get because it'll show where you bought the car. Seriously...if somebody asks me what our invoice price is, I'll tell them...but then I'll tell them we need to make at least 4% profit. Fair enough?
Best way to negotiate a deal is to create a relationship with your nearest dealer, be honest and sincere and don't ask for invoice right away. When you buy from the dealer you'll be servicing at, you'd be surprised how much better treatment you'll get because it'll show where you bought the car. Seriously...if somebody asks me what our invoice price is, I'll tell them...but then I'll tell them we need to make at least 4% profit. Fair enough?
12-23-2008, 11:09 PM
#42
I tried to deal w/ the guy who sold me my 3G but he moved to lexus.
In my experience no one has cared were I bought the car when I brought it in for service. Often times it seems as if the sales dept / service dept - is just that - 2 different departments of the an operation - one having little to do w/ the other - much less - 'treat that guy different - he didn't buy the car here' the service writers I have dealt w/ want to drive their bottom end as much as anyone else - what - wait - we don't want the business - you bought the car across town? But I will tell you this when I have gotten great customer service - I was sure to pass that info on - to friends and the acura survey
honest and sincere - exactly, just what I'm asking for - straight up info - cut the bs - (I didn't ask for invoice, I didn't ask them to take a loss on the deal) I dont know the rates of your c cards and get over the dr lic
face it -
** same product **
- why not shop based to a large extent on price -
now when it comes to servicing the car - now you have me w/ the best customer service
priceless - 'relationship' when I only buy every 5 years or so? I'll give you that but like I said the salesman moved on (he was an area salesleader), can be hard to create that relationship when the salesmen w/ balls tell me one price, yet information such as here at acurazine - tells me I can do better
but I guess even today there are still some buyers out there that make major purchases w/o researching the deal - just here at acurazine that probably doesn't include most
so the salesmen w/ balls dont want to deal w/ informed consumers? then that leaves the smart salesmen willing to work w/ this type of customer
its a deal - right - both parties have to agree - if you don't like my offer you decline - 'fair enough?'
In my experience no one has cared were I bought the car when I brought it in for service. Often times it seems as if the sales dept / service dept - is just that - 2 different departments of the an operation - one having little to do w/ the other - much less - 'treat that guy different - he didn't buy the car here' the service writers I have dealt w/ want to drive their bottom end as much as anyone else - what - wait - we don't want the business - you bought the car across town? But I will tell you this when I have gotten great customer service - I was sure to pass that info on - to friends and the acura survey
honest and sincere - exactly, just what I'm asking for - straight up info - cut the bs - (I didn't ask for invoice, I didn't ask them to take a loss on the deal) I dont know the rates of your c cards and get over the dr lic
face it -
** same product **
- why not shop based to a large extent on price -
now when it comes to servicing the car - now you have me w/ the best customer service
priceless - 'relationship' when I only buy every 5 years or so? I'll give you that but like I said the salesman moved on (he was an area salesleader), can be hard to create that relationship when the salesmen w/ balls tell me one price, yet information such as here at acurazine - tells me I can do better
but I guess even today there are still some buyers out there that make major purchases w/o researching the deal - just here at acurazine that probably doesn't include most
so the salesmen w/ balls dont want to deal w/ informed consumers? then that leaves the smart salesmen willing to work w/ this type of customer
its a deal - right - both parties have to agree - if you don't like my offer you decline - 'fair enough?'
12-24-2008, 02:10 AM
#43
Damn this thread is priceless! If somebody calls me asking for my best price over the phone I ask him if he/she is looking to make an offer with their credit card and driver's license number. Any salesman that gives you their "best price" over the phone has no balls.
Best way to negotiate a deal is to create a relationship with your nearest dealer, be honest and sincere and don't ask for invoice right away. When you buy from the dealer you'll be servicing at, you'd be surprised how much better treatment you'll get because it'll show where you bought the car. Seriously...if somebody asks me what our invoice price is, I'll tell them...but then I'll tell them we need to make at least 4% profit. Fair enough?
Best way to negotiate a deal is to create a relationship with your nearest dealer, be honest and sincere and don't ask for invoice right away. When you buy from the dealer you'll be servicing at, you'd be surprised how much better treatment you'll get because it'll show where you bought the car. Seriously...if somebody asks me what our invoice price is, I'll tell them...but then I'll tell them we need to make at least 4% profit. Fair enough?
No offense bud, but your post is truly spoken like a saleman. Its nearly predictable...LOL
12-24-2008, 02:33 AM
#44
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"Best way to negotiate a deal is to create a relationship with your nearest dealer, be honest and sincere". For some reason I've never heard a car dealer in the same sentence as honest and sincere. Thats asking for a lot CraigMacDTA especially if car dealers treat clients as walking piggy banks as soon as we step on the lot...this is a buyers market, and I'm not wanting dealers to lose money but if you have to sell at invoice to keep the lights on...well breaking even may not be the worst thing in the world. Last I heard, we are in a recession so people are trying to get the best deals on everything..don't get mad if we're asking for invoice...I could be wrong but dealers still make $1000 on hold back right?
12-24-2008, 03:07 AM
#45
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Best way to negotiate a deal is to create a relationship with your nearest dealer, be honest and sincere and don't ask for invoice right away. When you buy from the dealer you'll be servicing at, you'd be surprised how much better treatment you'll get because it'll show where you bought the car. Seriously...if somebody asks me what our invoice price is, I'll tell them...but then I'll tell them we need to make at least 4% profit. Fair enough?
If you really did sell every car at "dealer cost + 4%," and there were no other factors, then it would be fair. However, that's not the whole story. Dealers have a lot of tools at their disposal that allow them to earn money in different places. Let's do a basic (Because I by no means know the whole story) analysis...
The Dealer's primary costs are:
1) Maintenance of the dealership, which includes utility costs, the lease on the building, insurance for the vehicles and land, etc.
2) Interest on the loans from the bank covering the value of the cars sitting on the lot.
3) Payroll for Sales and Service Employees
4) Advertisement costs (Though to be fair, this is often passed on to the customer)
The dealers toolbag for making money (usually) includes:
1) Selling the vehicles for the highest possible negotiated price (i.e. where your 4% comes in).
2) Payments from customers or the manufacturer (If still under warranty) to the dealer to service vehicles.
3) Monthly and Quarterly sales goals set by the manufacturer, which, when met, result in large manufacturer to dealer rewards.
4) A certain percentage holdback from the manufacturer to the dealer on every car sold (Acura happens to have 3%).
5) A bevy of other programs, usually unknown to Joe the Car Buyer, that result in the manufacturer assisting the dealership. To quote Edmunds.com they may include:
- Advertising credits
- Flooring assistance
- Floor interest reserve
- Floor plan allowance
- Transfer balance
- Wholesale reserve
- Wholesale credits
6) Number "fixing" in the finance department resulting in inflated interest rates and extended payments. Not to mention the myriad of dealer add-ons that are inflated 100% or more in price.
We all ought to be open and transparent about the car buying process. Selling a car at "invoice" doesn't result in the dealership or the salesman making $0 profit. The very notion that all cars should sell for 4% over invoice to be "fair" is non-sense. If I go and buy a brand new Acura TL w/tech for invoice+4%, I'm paying $36,978 (Not including Tax title and license). That 4% profit was worth $1422.24 to them. Once the car is off the lot, the manufacturer will toss the dealership another $1066.68 in holdback. So now they've made $2,448.92 in total profit, and probably more by negotiating a nice finance deal, future service on the vehicle, any inflated dealer add-ons, and a great deal more if any monthly/quarterly sales targets were hit.
Does that scenario sound at all fair? To me, it doesn't seem that way. The car buyer shouldn't have to shoulder $2,500 of extra cost.
In short folks, go out there and haggle any way you want. The car dealers are there to make money and they're not going to make a deal that puts them at a loss. If they're willing to sign the vehicle over to you, they're making money, and probably more than you think.
12-24-2008, 08:13 AM
#47
rtDDS, AcuraSoulElement, and jadefire5457 - priceless replies
12-24-2008, 08:47 AM
#48
Suzuka Master
Damn this thread is priceless! If somebody calls me asking for my best price over the phone I ask him if he/she is looking to make an offer with their credit card and driver's license number. Any salesman that gives you their "best price" over the phone has no balls.
Best way to negotiate a deal is to create a relationship with your nearest dealer, be honest and sincere and don't ask for invoice right away. When you buy from the dealer you'll be servicing at, you'd be surprised how much better treatment you'll get because it'll show where you bought the car. Seriously...if somebody asks me what our invoice price is, I'll tell them...but then I'll tell them we need to make at least 4% profit. Fair enough?
Best way to negotiate a deal is to create a relationship with your nearest dealer, be honest and sincere and don't ask for invoice right away. When you buy from the dealer you'll be servicing at, you'd be surprised how much better treatment you'll get because it'll show where you bought the car. Seriously...if somebody asks me what our invoice price is, I'll tell them...but then I'll tell them we need to make at least 4% profit. Fair enough?
12-24-2008, 10:03 AM
#49
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What should a sales rep make from any average deal then if the dealer gets their 2% holdback and the car sells for invoice? In this case, NATTA...maybe a flat rate of $100...we have familys to feed too boyz and girls.
12-24-2008, 10:07 AM
#50
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Craig, while I agree in the ideal world your business model seems competent, I don't believe the bargaining process you're describing to future Acura buyers is even remotely close to fair.
If you really did sell every car at "dealer cost + 4%," and there were no other factors, then it would be fair. However, that's not the whole story. Dealers have a lot of tools at their disposal that allow them to earn money in different places. Let's do a basic (Because I by no means know the whole story) analysis...
The Dealer's primary costs are:
1) Maintenance of the dealership, which includes utility costs, the lease on the building, insurance for the vehicles and land, etc.
2) Interest on the loans from the bank covering the value of the cars sitting on the lot.
3) Payroll for Sales and Service Employees
4) Advertisement costs (Though to be fair, this is often passed on to the customer)
The dealers toolbag for making money (usually) includes:
1) Selling the vehicles for the highest possible negotiated price (i.e. where your 4% comes in).
2) Payments from customers or the manufacturer (If still under warranty) to the dealer to service vehicles.
3) Monthly and Quarterly sales goals set by the manufacturer, which, when met, result in large manufacturer to dealer rewards.
4) A certain percentage holdback from the manufacturer to the dealer on every car sold (Acura happens to have 3%).
5) A bevy of other programs, usually unknown to Joe the Car Buyer, that result in the manufacturer assisting the dealership. To quote Edmunds.com they may include:
6) Number "fixing" in the finance department resulting in inflated interest rates and extended payments. Not to mention the myriad of dealer add-ons that are inflated 100% or more in price.
We all ought to be open and transparent about the car buying process. Selling a car at "invoice" doesn't result in the dealership or the salesman making $0 profit. The very notion that all cars should sell for 4% over invoice to be "fair" is non-sense. If I go and buy a brand new Acura TL w/tech for invoice+4%, I'm paying $36,978 (Not including Tax title and license). That 4% profit was worth $1422.24 to them. Once the car is off the lot, the manufacturer will toss the dealership another $1066.68 in holdback. So now they've made $2,448.92 in total profit, and probably more by negotiating a nice finance deal, future service on the vehicle, any inflated dealer add-ons, and a great deal more if any monthly/quarterly sales targets were hit.
Does that scenario sound at all fair? To me, it doesn't seem that way. The car buyer shouldn't have to shoulder $2,500 of extra cost.
In short folks, go out there and haggle any way you want. The car dealers are there to make money and they're not going to make a deal that puts them at a loss. If they're willing to sign the vehicle over to you, they're making money, and probably more than you think.
If you really did sell every car at "dealer cost + 4%," and there were no other factors, then it would be fair. However, that's not the whole story. Dealers have a lot of tools at their disposal that allow them to earn money in different places. Let's do a basic (Because I by no means know the whole story) analysis...
The Dealer's primary costs are:
1) Maintenance of the dealership, which includes utility costs, the lease on the building, insurance for the vehicles and land, etc.
2) Interest on the loans from the bank covering the value of the cars sitting on the lot.
3) Payroll for Sales and Service Employees
4) Advertisement costs (Though to be fair, this is often passed on to the customer)
The dealers toolbag for making money (usually) includes:
1) Selling the vehicles for the highest possible negotiated price (i.e. where your 4% comes in).
2) Payments from customers or the manufacturer (If still under warranty) to the dealer to service vehicles.
3) Monthly and Quarterly sales goals set by the manufacturer, which, when met, result in large manufacturer to dealer rewards.
4) A certain percentage holdback from the manufacturer to the dealer on every car sold (Acura happens to have 3%).
5) A bevy of other programs, usually unknown to Joe the Car Buyer, that result in the manufacturer assisting the dealership. To quote Edmunds.com they may include:
- Advertising credits
- Flooring assistance
- Floor interest reserve
- Floor plan allowance
- Transfer balance
- Wholesale reserve
- Wholesale credits
6) Number "fixing" in the finance department resulting in inflated interest rates and extended payments. Not to mention the myriad of dealer add-ons that are inflated 100% or more in price.
We all ought to be open and transparent about the car buying process. Selling a car at "invoice" doesn't result in the dealership or the salesman making $0 profit. The very notion that all cars should sell for 4% over invoice to be "fair" is non-sense. If I go and buy a brand new Acura TL w/tech for invoice+4%, I'm paying $36,978 (Not including Tax title and license). That 4% profit was worth $1422.24 to them. Once the car is off the lot, the manufacturer will toss the dealership another $1066.68 in holdback. So now they've made $2,448.92 in total profit, and probably more by negotiating a nice finance deal, future service on the vehicle, any inflated dealer add-ons, and a great deal more if any monthly/quarterly sales targets were hit.
Does that scenario sound at all fair? To me, it doesn't seem that way. The car buyer shouldn't have to shoulder $2,500 of extra cost.
In short folks, go out there and haggle any way you want. The car dealers are there to make money and they're not going to make a deal that puts them at a loss. If they're willing to sign the vehicle over to you, they're making money, and probably more than you think.
12-24-2008, 10:21 AM
#51
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Craig, there are smart buyers and not so smart buyers..at the end of the month there is probably some what of a balance. For every person that buys at invoice I'm sure there is a sucker that pays MSRP + unecessary extras that the dealer convinces them to get. I've been waiting and doing research for the past 4-5 months, joined multiple forums to educate myself before making a huge purchase. I know someone who absolutely did no research, walked onto a lexus lot, chose out the es350, walked away paying a total of 50k! That car sells at 30k invoice? Wow...I'm not sure if you call that fair..I'm sure the dealer new she was clueless and milked her for every penny they could. You get my drift? You know I really do hope you can feed you family through these hard times, I really do...but even in my job there are days I make zero, but at the end of the month it some how works out and life isn't so bad because the bills get payed..
12-24-2008, 10:34 AM
#52
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<~~~~ has never paid anything over true invoice less any incentives/rebates, does not pay dealer fees (since it is necessary that it shows on the contract that I pay dealer fees, I just have them take it off of the vehicle's sales price) always deals with the internet department, and gets at least 3 quotes.
12-24-2008, 10:34 AM
#53
Craig, there are smart buyers and not so smart buyers..at the end of the month there is probably some what of a balance. For every person that buys at invoice I'm sure there is a sucker that pays MSRP + unecessary extras that the dealer convinces them to get. I've been waiting and doing research for the past 4-5 months, joined multiple forums to educate myself before making a huge purchase. I know someone who absolutely did no research, walked onto a lexus lot, chose out the es350, walked away paying a total of 50k! That car sells at 30k invoice? Wow...I'm not sure if you call that fair..I'm sure the dealer new she was clueless and milked her for every penny they could. You get my drift? You know I really do hope you can feed you family through these hard times, I really do...but even in my job there are days I make zero, but at the end of the month it some how works out and life isn't so bad because the bills get payed..
12-24-2008, 01:07 PM
#54
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Here's a different perspective.
I've been very aggressive in my buying. And I (always) pay cash. I am even willing to sell my old car on Craig's List to not cloud a good purchase.
10 years ago, I dealt across the state (NJ) by the Internet to save $1000. Today, I'm willing to fly to most major airports to snag a $3000+ discount (and enjoy the drive home).
And you can find them! -- Use Ebay to get started. "Fleetleasing.com" (for example) is one company that offers incredible prices. You may not get exactly the colors or packages you want at a certain moment (... not much of a problem with TLs, since they come with everything ...) but if you wait a couple weeks, there are different cars offered. Or, you can call these big discounters and try to work your numbers over the phone for the exact model you want, if you're willing to wait.
Of course salesmen have to eat. When I find one who knows as much about the car he's selling as I do, I may change my perspective.
I've been very aggressive in my buying. And I (always) pay cash. I am even willing to sell my old car on Craig's List to not cloud a good purchase.
10 years ago, I dealt across the state (NJ) by the Internet to save $1000. Today, I'm willing to fly to most major airports to snag a $3000+ discount (and enjoy the drive home).
And you can find them! -- Use Ebay to get started. "Fleetleasing.com" (for example) is one company that offers incredible prices. You may not get exactly the colors or packages you want at a certain moment (... not much of a problem with TLs, since they come with everything ...) but if you wait a couple weeks, there are different cars offered. Or, you can call these big discounters and try to work your numbers over the phone for the exact model you want, if you're willing to wait.
Of course salesmen have to eat. When I find one who knows as much about the car he's selling as I do, I may change my perspective.
12-24-2008, 03:16 PM
#55
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Craig, there are smart buyers and not so smart buyers..at the end of the month there is probably some what of a balance. For every person that buys at invoice I'm sure there is a sucker that pays MSRP + unecessary extras that the dealer convinces them to get. I've been waiting and doing research for the past 4-5 months, joined multiple forums to educate myself before making a huge purchase. I know someone who absolutely did no research, walked onto a lexus lot, chose out the es350, walked away paying a total of 50k! That car sells at 30k invoice?
12-24-2008, 03:19 PM
#56
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<~~~~ has never paid anything over true invoice less any incentives/rebates, does not pay dealer fees (since it is necessary that it shows on the contract that I pay dealer fees, I just have them take it off of the vehicle's sales price) always deals with the internet department, and gets at least 3 quotes.
12-24-2008, 04:00 PM
#57
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Like I said, at the end of the month, things balance out because of those uneducated buyers who just nod, say yes, and sign the dotted line. Hey I'm in a profession where I'm busting my tail all day long and make nothing because of crappy insurance plans, but I know it's going to work out in the end, so I don't complain. I honestly don't think everyone who walks through your door gets invoice right? Just those smart ones that know they type of deal they can get...and I don't think thats many at the end of the day..Hey Craig I don't want you to go out of business, but nowadays you have to be a saavy shopper and consumer. You know if it was before I was one of those who just didn't research but it's a little different now thats all...
12-24-2008, 05:22 PM
#58
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And how do you expect dealerships to operate? I'm not sure how it works in the States down there, but even when sales departments have reasonable sales numbers, it still barely pays the overhead costs. Most dealerships keep themselves open because of the strength of their service departments.
I remember having a conversation with an Internet Manager at a Cadillac dealership when I was negotiating my father's truck. He told me that they work differently than conventional salespeople in that they get paid on how much volume they move so they have more wiggle room as opposed to walking through the dealership door and going through the whole song and dance of buying a vehicle.
There is no way your going to convince me to spend any more money than I have to as there is no way I'm going to convince you to make $100 on a deal and be happy with it. I agree with the OP- in the end it all balances out.
12-24-2008, 11:25 PM
#59
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If I disclose these numbers to you, are you going to come back and demand we sell the MDX to you at true invoice or would you appreciate my honesty and allow me to make $300-$400?
No one is can force you to sell them a vehicle. If the deal works for you, then you will do it.
Like many buyers, I engaged with several dealerships primarily comparing on price. I gave my local (and favored) dealership the first right of refusal on the best deal I was offered. They took it.
12-25-2008, 05:44 AM
#60
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Just an update on my situation. I decided to go for the TL. I called them yesterday. They're processing my credit app now. I think I'm going for the Grigio. Hopefully my credit will be ok to get the lease price quoted and the car will come in soon. If not then I'll just ride out the 6 mo extension on my lease and see what happens then.
12-25-2008, 07:58 AM
#61
good luck ( we now return to the OP)
12-25-2008, 08:19 AM
#62
Suzuka Master
And how do you expect dealerships to operate? I'm not sure how it works in the States down there, but even when sales departments have reasonable sales numbers, it still barely pays the overhead costs. Most dealerships keep themselves open because of the strength of their service departments.
12-25-2008, 12:01 PM
#63
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Maybe it's just my surroundings and the fact that I work at a dealership in downtown Toronto, but in the past year, I can't remember one vehicle I sold at MSRP. Maybe cuz people here are more informed? I dunno...every salesman has their own style. I like to be upfront and honest and with that I hope it generates more referrals.
I'll just say one last thing. If you go to a dealer and the salesman spends time with you on a test drive and going over numbers or even appraising your trade...do me a favour - give the dude last right of refusal. We don't get a base salary, we don't get paid by the hour. If the sales rep you are dealing with is a cocky, arrogant scumbag then yes - milk him for what you can. We're not all out to get you, you're not all out to get us. Just be honest and the right ones will appreciate what you're doing - if you're a weasel about it, he'll sniff that from a mile away and purposely treat you like shit.
I'll just say one last thing. If you go to a dealer and the salesman spends time with you on a test drive and going over numbers or even appraising your trade...do me a favour - give the dude last right of refusal. We don't get a base salary, we don't get paid by the hour. If the sales rep you are dealing with is a cocky, arrogant scumbag then yes - milk him for what you can. We're not all out to get you, you're not all out to get us. Just be honest and the right ones will appreciate what you're doing - if you're a weasel about it, he'll sniff that from a mile away and purposely treat you like shit.
12-25-2008, 01:10 PM
#64
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craig- you truly sound like a stand up guy and great person to deal with. Keep up the great work, I'm sure it will pay off. People appreciate honesty and sincerity and it seems that you have both qualities.
12-25-2008, 01:30 PM
#65
The hardest part is maintaining the "Modern Car Sales Consultant" attitude when constantly barraged by "Old style Buyers" I don't know how long you've been doing it Craig, but I wish you well.
12-25-2008, 01:48 PM
#66
Ahh, the car buying experience....
I go in with the attitude that I don't want to waste anyones time, either mine or the sales persons.....and I actually tell them that.
Yes, I have blatantly told them they could afford to sell to me at my price because they could hi-ball the next buyer and make up for it. Save some time and let's get this over with!
Firm idea of price I'm willing to spend in hand, I give them a set amount of time (usually an hour) to sell or get off the pot.
As someone stated earlier, you have to go in with the attitude that you don't really have to buy a car today..or tomorrow.
Timing is crucial...end of month rainy nasty weather days are the best.
The fewer potential customers the better..they will be less likely to let you walk if you are the only one at the dealership on that nasty evening
I have found that some sales people whine about starving yada yada yada, and others appreciate I'm not wasting hours of their time (time they could possibly be selling another customer at retail).
According to the Edmunds tips referenced earlier in this thread, they have a name for people like me...but I don't care...I'm just out to get a good deal in a short amount of time
I go in with the attitude that I don't want to waste anyones time, either mine or the sales persons.....and I actually tell them that.
Yes, I have blatantly told them they could afford to sell to me at my price because they could hi-ball the next buyer and make up for it. Save some time and let's get this over with!
Firm idea of price I'm willing to spend in hand, I give them a set amount of time (usually an hour) to sell or get off the pot.
As someone stated earlier, you have to go in with the attitude that you don't really have to buy a car today..or tomorrow.
Timing is crucial...end of month rainy nasty weather days are the best.
The fewer potential customers the better..they will be less likely to let you walk if you are the only one at the dealership on that nasty evening
I have found that some sales people whine about starving yada yada yada, and others appreciate I'm not wasting hours of their time (time they could possibly be selling another customer at retail).
According to the Edmunds tips referenced earlier in this thread, they have a name for people like me...but I don't care...I'm just out to get a good deal in a short amount of time
12-25-2008, 02:00 PM
#67
Seriously, I usually stay out of these threads, but I wanted to offer a counterpoint to the accepted wisdom to show that not all the advice is (always) correct. Consider it 'food for thought' that not all situations are the same.
12-25-2008, 03:34 PM
#68
Ahh, the typical person who 'knows' everything. What if I already made my goals for the month? What if I have NO chance of making them? I might want the sale the following month.
Seriously, I usually stay out of these threads, but I wanted to offer a counterpoint to the accepted wisdom to show that not all the advice is (always) correct. Consider it 'food for thought' that not all situations are the same.
Seriously, I usually stay out of these threads, but I wanted to offer a counterpoint to the accepted wisdom to show that not all the advice is (always) correct. Consider it 'food for thought' that not all situations are the same.
Hmmm, I can see why you usually stay out of these threads. Seems you read things into them that aren't there.
"the typical person who 'knows' everything." comment has no basis and could be considered un-called for.
Did I say I am a person who knows everything?
I only expressed how I go about negotiating a deal, and what has worked for me in the past.
This thread is about negotiating a deal and there are many views as to how to go about this....and
of course there will always be situations where none of the expressed views are relevant.
Thanks for your counter point any way
I don't expect everyone to agree with all the different views expressed here.
These are just views from people who have been through the experience from both sides of the fence (sales people vs buyers)
12-25-2008, 04:01 PM
#69
"knows" was in quotes to soften it, not to exaggerate it. I know you don't pretend to 'know' everything and it was not intended as a insult, don't take it that way.
12-25-2008, 09:13 PM
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It's funny cuz on days where there's a LOT of snow or like -30 below, first thing said amongst us is "If someone comes in today - they are either serious buyers or fuckin' lunatics!"
12-25-2008, 09:16 PM
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well...
I didn't read ALL the posts, but its your typical back-and-forth about dealers being bad and buyers always being good.
Please, CraigMac, don't be so naive. There is no such thing as a free lunch. All those super-magical sources of free money for a dealer, are only intended to help a dealer cover its costs, not as profit. When you have an investment of MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of dollars on inventory alone, you pay very high flooring costs, insurance costs, etc. The sales profit for a dealer really is as simple as it seems. Anything over holdback is profit. Used cars are mostly profit, not new.
I have sold cars below invoice, above msrp, and everything in between, and it has nothing to do with being a smart buyer or not... It is simply a matter of perception to the buyer relative to the value they see in what they are buying. There are several people here who will swear they got a great deal, and to others they got ripped off. There is always a better deal at, but the best one is the one you are happy with and buy the car for.
crxb is wrong, he may feel good about his way of shpping, because relative to his own perception, he got a good deal, but its not THE right way to buy a car(there isn't one).
I stand by what I said. You build a relationship with your dealer, call, e-mail, whatever, but meet someone there tell them what you want and ask them to give it to you! That simple. See, it's your responsibility, not the salesperson's to decide what a good deal is. It's the salesperson's responsibility to either meet those expectations of a good deal when possible or build value in the product or service.
Again, I will not waste time with anonymous people over the phone or e-mail demanding the best price, because the $100 for hours of work and stress is not worth it to me.
Oh, crxb, the average cycle for buying a car is 3 years per car, so households with more than one are even more often, as often as 12 months actually, so it is possible to build a relationship with a dealer for long term(even though I was referring to short term).
Anyway, I'm not looking to change minds. It's just my opinion. You guys do whatever makes you happy. I can't speak for some of you guys who are older than me, because I've never really encountered this cliche old-school sales stuff. I'm straight-forward with my customers, and they appreciate it. If they want a price, they get a price, but in return, I'd appreciate a little info. Give some, take some. In the end, being open (both ways) saves everyone time and effort.
Good luck guys.
Please, CraigMac, don't be so naive. There is no such thing as a free lunch. All those super-magical sources of free money for a dealer, are only intended to help a dealer cover its costs, not as profit. When you have an investment of MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of dollars on inventory alone, you pay very high flooring costs, insurance costs, etc. The sales profit for a dealer really is as simple as it seems. Anything over holdback is profit. Used cars are mostly profit, not new.
I have sold cars below invoice, above msrp, and everything in between, and it has nothing to do with being a smart buyer or not... It is simply a matter of perception to the buyer relative to the value they see in what they are buying. There are several people here who will swear they got a great deal, and to others they got ripped off. There is always a better deal at, but the best one is the one you are happy with and buy the car for.
crxb is wrong, he may feel good about his way of shpping, because relative to his own perception, he got a good deal, but its not THE right way to buy a car(there isn't one).
I stand by what I said. You build a relationship with your dealer, call, e-mail, whatever, but meet someone there tell them what you want and ask them to give it to you! That simple. See, it's your responsibility, not the salesperson's to decide what a good deal is. It's the salesperson's responsibility to either meet those expectations of a good deal when possible or build value in the product or service.
Again, I will not waste time with anonymous people over the phone or e-mail demanding the best price, because the $100 for hours of work and stress is not worth it to me.
Oh, crxb, the average cycle for buying a car is 3 years per car, so households with more than one are even more often, as often as 12 months actually, so it is possible to build a relationship with a dealer for long term(even though I was referring to short term).
Anyway, I'm not looking to change minds. It's just my opinion. You guys do whatever makes you happy. I can't speak for some of you guys who are older than me, because I've never really encountered this cliche old-school sales stuff. I'm straight-forward with my customers, and they appreciate it. If they want a price, they get a price, but in return, I'd appreciate a little info. Give some, take some. In the end, being open (both ways) saves everyone time and effort.
Good luck guys.
12-26-2008, 12:19 PM
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In car sales is really important to make someone feel comfortable. I get people much older than me all the time, who are really easy to deal with, the funny thing is when I get the young people (my age) who are scared shitless when they see me walk out to greet them. I usually just make a joke, and i'll be real frank with them about the process. I think internet sales have boomed the way they have because of people who are scared to walk on a lot (don't be ashamed, it's ok) because it can be intimidating. It's a HUGE investment, and one that people are stuck with for 1-7 years. I can understand that. Dealing over the internet takes the emotion out of it (as someone stated earlier) and makes it a purely logical decision.
Many of you guys are right on the money, and i touched on that on my last post. A deal works both ways and neither party is obligated to accept a deal they are not happy with, and that's just as fair as it gets. As a sales person I have one request from buyers and only one. I don't care if you want pure price, best trade, delivery to home, whatever you want, they only thing I ask of my customers is this:
Set your own expectations of a good deal. I cannot and will not make that decision for you.
In other words, don't ask me for the "best deal". I really absolutely don't know what that is, and even if I did, I couldn't do it because there is always a deal that's $50 better out there.
If you really want to be nice to me, treat me with fairness and respect, and I'll do the same to you. The deal works both ways, remember?
One last thing: For some reason I take offense to people calling other people stupid for paying MSRP. They are stupid if they pay OVER MSRP for sure, but I don't think my customers are stupid for paying MSRP. Sure, I make maybe 200 bucks more than I would at invoice, but that really isn't what it's about, because I'll make my paycheck and pay the bills on used cars anyway. I think its just a matter of perception.
The information is out there for everyone to see, if they choose not to seek it, maybe they just feel to busy with their lives to spend time researching and calling and driving around to save a few hundred bucks. And let's be honest, it is only a few hundred bucks because any dealer in the nation has the ability to do the same deal within a few hundred bucks.
Anyway, best of luck guys. If you ever need any advice on Acura products/pricing feel free to PM me, I'll give you the straight honest answer, even if you're in another state, and not buying with me, I'd be glad to help.
Many of you guys are right on the money, and i touched on that on my last post. A deal works both ways and neither party is obligated to accept a deal they are not happy with, and that's just as fair as it gets. As a sales person I have one request from buyers and only one. I don't care if you want pure price, best trade, delivery to home, whatever you want, they only thing I ask of my customers is this:
Set your own expectations of a good deal. I cannot and will not make that decision for you.
In other words, don't ask me for the "best deal". I really absolutely don't know what that is, and even if I did, I couldn't do it because there is always a deal that's $50 better out there.
If you really want to be nice to me, treat me with fairness and respect, and I'll do the same to you. The deal works both ways, remember?
One last thing: For some reason I take offense to people calling other people stupid for paying MSRP. They are stupid if they pay OVER MSRP for sure, but I don't think my customers are stupid for paying MSRP. Sure, I make maybe 200 bucks more than I would at invoice, but that really isn't what it's about, because I'll make my paycheck and pay the bills on used cars anyway. I think its just a matter of perception.
The information is out there for everyone to see, if they choose not to seek it, maybe they just feel to busy with their lives to spend time researching and calling and driving around to save a few hundred bucks. And let's be honest, it is only a few hundred bucks because any dealer in the nation has the ability to do the same deal within a few hundred bucks.
Anyway, best of luck guys. If you ever need any advice on Acura products/pricing feel free to PM me, I'll give you the straight honest answer, even if you're in another state, and not buying with me, I'd be glad to help.
12-26-2008, 05:14 PM
#74
Spearsoft: I didnt say it was THE right way to buy a car. You have your point of view. some may agree w/ it. I'm not telling you to deal w/ email quotes - I was just using a service that Acura has on their web site for the quotes.
I didn't see the part on Acura's web site where it said - click here for quotes or click here for a relationship w/ a salesman (as I and others have stated sales people move on)
others posted some comments - such as:
J.A.S.: "My stepfather was in the car business for 15 years and his advice mirrors crxb. Keep separate: the price of the car, your trade in and financing terms. The dealer is apt to blend them altogether to give you a "monthly payment" that is attractive but you may not be getting a good deal on price, trade in and/or financing. Force the dealer to keep them separate to know what you're getting into."
KeithL: "I tried the relationship thing and it only goes so far, and truthfully if you buy numerous cars from same dealer you tend to get to the sweet spot quicker, but honestly Service and Sales are 2 different managers and honeslt they don't care where you buy it. .... If you notice most sales people and managers don't seem to stay at a dealer long enough for you to build a relationship with anyway!"
nota4re "No can force you to sell them a vehicle. If the deal works for you, then you will do it. Like many buyers, I engaged with several dealerships primarily comparing on price. I gave my local (and favored) dealership the first right of refusal on the best deal I was offered. They took it."
spearsoft: "...Dealing over the internet takes the emotion out of it (as someone stated earlier) and makes it a purely logical decision." (page 2)
Sphyrna: "rtDDS, good luck on your purchase! Internet shopping definitely has changed the car buying procedure quite a bit. It makes it much easier on us too. I work 2 jobs so my time is limited. Being able to get all the small stuff out of the way via email is a big help."
rtDDS: "I agree Sphyrna, discussing via email is so much easier, there is absolutely no pressure and you are in control. And you can pretty much send a mass email to 6 or 7 dealers instead of calling each separately and saying the exact same thing over and over again; just copy n paste and its all done. I've gotten an out the door price from 3 dealers so if I were to come in there would no question what the total at the bottom of the contract would be. It's nice to know that walking into a dealership."
crxb: "It also helps limit your emotions too" (page 1)
spearsoft: "...Again, I will not waste time with anonymous people over the phone or e-mail demanding the best price, because the $100 for hours of work and stress is not worth it to me.
Oh, crxb, the average cycle for buying a car is 3 years per car, so households with more than one are even more often, as often as 12 months actually, so it is possible to build a relationship with a dealer for long term(even though I was referring to short term)."
"It's a HUGE investment, and one that people are stuck with for 1-7 years. I can understand that." "The information is out there for everyone to see, if they choose not to seek it, maybe they just feel to busy with their lives to spend time researching and calling and driving around to save a few hundred bucks. And let's be honest, it is only a few hundred bucks because any dealer in the nation has the ability to do the same deal within a few hundred bucks."
Between the price of the car, finance rate, and trade - it can make a few thousand dollars difference
At the end of the day - we all want to save $. You work the deal your way and the buyers can only work the deal the best way they know how.
and finally from CraigMacDTA: "The End. Merry Christmas folks!"
and Happy New Year
I didn't see the part on Acura's web site where it said - click here for quotes or click here for a relationship w/ a salesman (as I and others have stated sales people move on)
others posted some comments - such as:
J.A.S.: "My stepfather was in the car business for 15 years and his advice mirrors crxb. Keep separate: the price of the car, your trade in and financing terms. The dealer is apt to blend them altogether to give you a "monthly payment" that is attractive but you may not be getting a good deal on price, trade in and/or financing. Force the dealer to keep them separate to know what you're getting into."
KeithL: "I tried the relationship thing and it only goes so far, and truthfully if you buy numerous cars from same dealer you tend to get to the sweet spot quicker, but honestly Service and Sales are 2 different managers and honeslt they don't care where you buy it. .... If you notice most sales people and managers don't seem to stay at a dealer long enough for you to build a relationship with anyway!"
nota4re "No can force you to sell them a vehicle. If the deal works for you, then you will do it. Like many buyers, I engaged with several dealerships primarily comparing on price. I gave my local (and favored) dealership the first right of refusal on the best deal I was offered. They took it."
spearsoft: "...Dealing over the internet takes the emotion out of it (as someone stated earlier) and makes it a purely logical decision." (page 2)
Sphyrna: "rtDDS, good luck on your purchase! Internet shopping definitely has changed the car buying procedure quite a bit. It makes it much easier on us too. I work 2 jobs so my time is limited. Being able to get all the small stuff out of the way via email is a big help."
rtDDS: "I agree Sphyrna, discussing via email is so much easier, there is absolutely no pressure and you are in control. And you can pretty much send a mass email to 6 or 7 dealers instead of calling each separately and saying the exact same thing over and over again; just copy n paste and its all done. I've gotten an out the door price from 3 dealers so if I were to come in there would no question what the total at the bottom of the contract would be. It's nice to know that walking into a dealership."
crxb: "It also helps limit your emotions too" (page 1)
spearsoft: "...Again, I will not waste time with anonymous people over the phone or e-mail demanding the best price, because the $100 for hours of work and stress is not worth it to me.
Oh, crxb, the average cycle for buying a car is 3 years per car, so households with more than one are even more often, as often as 12 months actually, so it is possible to build a relationship with a dealer for long term(even though I was referring to short term)."
"It's a HUGE investment, and one that people are stuck with for 1-7 years. I can understand that." "The information is out there for everyone to see, if they choose not to seek it, maybe they just feel to busy with their lives to spend time researching and calling and driving around to save a few hundred bucks. And let's be honest, it is only a few hundred bucks because any dealer in the nation has the ability to do the same deal within a few hundred bucks."
Between the price of the car, finance rate, and trade - it can make a few thousand dollars difference
At the end of the day - we all want to save $. You work the deal your way and the buyers can only work the deal the best way they know how.
and finally from CraigMacDTA: "The End. Merry Christmas folks!"
and Happy New Year
12-26-2008, 07:09 PM
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I'm not disagreeing with everything you said, just the things I pointed out. I do believe customers need to keep everything seperate. But some only care about the monthly payment, and of course, that's my favorite kind of customer. But it's the reason the infamous "four square" exists. It breaks the deal up into all of the components. And again, ANY dealer in the nation can do the same deal within a few hundred bucks. It doesn't mean they will, but they can. So you'll never be a few thousand appart.
And even though you may THINK that's what the button says, it really does say the latter, because there is no automated system to handle it. Your request is simply forwarded to the nearest dealers and a salesman there will figure numbers for you and do what? Attempt to build some sort of relationship with you. You keep missing the lines where I state that I'm not referring to a long-term relationship.
But if you contact a store and establish a "I'm you're customer, you're my salesperson" relationship, you'll make the salesguy feel all special and warm inside and he'll work the deal for you. If you're just another faceless lead, he'll just throw out a number to get you off his queue or get you to contact him back.
If someone in my town is going to drive 60-100 miles to another acura store to save a few hundred bucks, I think they're the one losing for not taking the time to talk to me for a minute on the phone or in person. Because I can beat or match any deal out there, save him a drive, and even deliver to their home or office if they want. Get what I'm saying?
And even though you may THINK that's what the button says, it really does say the latter, because there is no automated system to handle it. Your request is simply forwarded to the nearest dealers and a salesman there will figure numbers for you and do what? Attempt to build some sort of relationship with you. You keep missing the lines where I state that I'm not referring to a long-term relationship.
But if you contact a store and establish a "I'm you're customer, you're my salesperson" relationship, you'll make the salesguy feel all special and warm inside and he'll work the deal for you. If you're just another faceless lead, he'll just throw out a number to get you off his queue or get you to contact him back.
If someone in my town is going to drive 60-100 miles to another acura store to save a few hundred bucks, I think they're the one losing for not taking the time to talk to me for a minute on the phone or in person. Because I can beat or match any deal out there, save him a drive, and even deliver to their home or office if they want. Get what I'm saying?
12-26-2008, 07:19 PM
#76
armistice?
12-26-2008, 07:55 PM
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Hey Spearsoft, I have no problem with any of your points. At 21, I think you are wise beyond your years and you will (if you choose) undoubtedly make a great career in sales.
I especially agree with your statement of "treat me with respect and I will treat you with respect". Simple as it is, it is really all that I ask too. I often thing that one of the best attributes of a salesman is 1) being able to "read" his prospect AND; 2) being able to ADAPT to the person he/she is dealing with.
I am an educated, informed, and experienced car buyer and I will buy at least one new car per year (yes, it is a costly vice). The sales people that "treat" me right earn my respect and likely my business. Don't get me wrong, I'm not arrogant and don't want/expect anyone to kiss my butt, but I hate, hate, hate the car sales newbie who has the same rehearsed approach to every buyer. I also very much dislike salespeople that don't know their product.
Know your product well and treat me - uniquely... and you just might get my business.
I especially agree with your statement of "treat me with respect and I will treat you with respect". Simple as it is, it is really all that I ask too. I often thing that one of the best attributes of a salesman is 1) being able to "read" his prospect AND; 2) being able to ADAPT to the person he/she is dealing with.
I am an educated, informed, and experienced car buyer and I will buy at least one new car per year (yes, it is a costly vice). The sales people that "treat" me right earn my respect and likely my business. Don't get me wrong, I'm not arrogant and don't want/expect anyone to kiss my butt, but I hate, hate, hate the car sales newbie who has the same rehearsed approach to every buyer. I also very much dislike salespeople that don't know their product.
Know your product well and treat me - uniquely... and you just might get my business.
01-03-2009, 11:36 PM
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General Manager or Internet manager? best with pricing and service?
Hi Craig and spear and other good posters (too many names),
General Manager or Internet manager? who will be best with pricing and service. or does it matter?
You dialog back and forth have brought some good points. Since you know the workings of the dealerships, maybe you can help me with this. I am about to end my third TL acura lease ( 39 months ) and start my 4th lease on a 2009 TL Fwd tech. In the beginning (1998) i did a bunch of calling and Internet request for quotes. at that point I established a relationship with the Internet sales manager at Acura of South Florida. He always was straight forward and always gave me a great price and service. Since then I have leased my last three vehicles with him. We'll now I'm off to my fourth lease and he is no longer with the company.
Since then I have received an email from the General Manager and the new Internet Manager. Looking at them now I realized that they sent out the same email, but just changed the titles and positions in the company.
But anyway, who is the best person to create a relationship with and get the famous "best deal" and personal serive on a new lease.
Is one person or position in the company or better to deal with than another?
General Manager or Internet manager? who will be best with pricing and service. or does it matter?
You dialog back and forth have brought some good points. Since you know the workings of the dealerships, maybe you can help me with this. I am about to end my third TL acura lease ( 39 months ) and start my 4th lease on a 2009 TL Fwd tech. In the beginning (1998) i did a bunch of calling and Internet request for quotes. at that point I established a relationship with the Internet sales manager at Acura of South Florida. He always was straight forward and always gave me a great price and service. Since then I have leased my last three vehicles with him. We'll now I'm off to my fourth lease and he is no longer with the company.
Since then I have received an email from the General Manager and the new Internet Manager. Looking at them now I realized that they sent out the same email, but just changed the titles and positions in the company.
But anyway, who is the best person to create a relationship with and get the famous "best deal" and personal serive on a new lease.
Is one person or position in the company or better to deal with than another?
01-03-2009, 11:57 PM
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I used Consumerreports.com to look up the % for dealer hold back on my TL. Which was $1237 on an '09 TL Sh-AWD with Tech. In my experience a dealer will practically never negotiate that. When I have brought up the dealer hold back, the dealer puckers.
Just know that the dealer is making money on the deal, no matter how they try to tell you that they aren't. My sister was married to a car dealer for 8 years...he had some great stories on how he just screwed over customers who did had not done their homework on the cost structure of the car they wanted.
Know the cost structure and pricing on your car for your area and negotiate a price before ever talking trade-in, financing or leasing.
This forum and this thread has some great advice - read carefully and good luck!
Just know that the dealer is making money on the deal, no matter how they try to tell you that they aren't. My sister was married to a car dealer for 8 years...he had some great stories on how he just screwed over customers who did had not done their homework on the cost structure of the car they wanted.
Know the cost structure and pricing on your car for your area and negotiate a price before ever talking trade-in, financing or leasing.
This forum and this thread has some great advice - read carefully and good luck!
01-04-2009, 02:27 AM
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DrEvil: Unfortunately there are still some of those that take pride in screwing people over, rather than focusing on make the customer happy.
On to another point, holdback really isn't that high. Not even on an RL. If I remember the number correctly, it doesn't exceed $750. The reason most dealers don't like to discount holdback is because to make ONLY holdback is a very poor return on your investment (in this case ~40k), so I understand that from the owner's standpoint, but it's more costly to sit on that same investment, AND pay interest on it for a long period of time (flooring costs/insurance).
I guess, as I understand it, decades of shady business ethics and downright illegal stuff consumers feel that it isn't fair for a car dealer to make ANY money. I really can't think of any other form of retail where you would feel it was unfair that the retailer made 1.9% profit on their investment. I mean, most of the stuff you buy on a day to day basis has a 100% markup on it. At MSRP, the markup is really only about 6~7% on an Acura(if my math is correct).
Deanooh: Every dealer is different in that aspect, but i'd say most of the time, I'd just go to the internet guy or regular sales guy, because the sales manager will just introduce you to a sales guy anyway, but I don't know the people at the dealer. A fresh new sales manager will most likely be willing to deal with you one on one, but as they get more comfortable with their position, the really start avoiding having to deal with customers directly. Ultimately, the price you get from the internet or floor sales guy will be determined by the sales manager anyway(whether they work your deal personally or set the pricing guidelines)
Nota4re:
Thanks for your comments. I always treat my customers with respect and if they choose to be rude ( I just recently had a really bad experience with a customer), i'd rather be honest then to the point of telling them something along the lines of "this isn't working out between us, my colleague will be giving you a call". I wouldn't consider those expectations arrogance. I've become pretty disillusioned with american business, because good customer service is really disappearing. Believe it or not guys, when I'm not at work, I'm a consumer just like everyone else. When i walk into a business I expect for the employee to at least pretend they enjoy their job, I don't need to hear their conversation with a co-worker about how they hate their manager, or whatever personal issues they have. Greet me, help me, and I'm on my way with a smile and a "thank you". I get sold stuff that I don't need all the time, but I'm the kind of person that needs that little extra push or I end up not buying things(which I guess is supposed to be a good thing, or so my lady says).
On to another point, holdback really isn't that high. Not even on an RL. If I remember the number correctly, it doesn't exceed $750. The reason most dealers don't like to discount holdback is because to make ONLY holdback is a very poor return on your investment (in this case ~40k), so I understand that from the owner's standpoint, but it's more costly to sit on that same investment, AND pay interest on it for a long period of time (flooring costs/insurance).
I guess, as I understand it, decades of shady business ethics and downright illegal stuff consumers feel that it isn't fair for a car dealer to make ANY money. I really can't think of any other form of retail where you would feel it was unfair that the retailer made 1.9% profit on their investment. I mean, most of the stuff you buy on a day to day basis has a 100% markup on it. At MSRP, the markup is really only about 6~7% on an Acura(if my math is correct).
Deanooh: Every dealer is different in that aspect, but i'd say most of the time, I'd just go to the internet guy or regular sales guy, because the sales manager will just introduce you to a sales guy anyway, but I don't know the people at the dealer. A fresh new sales manager will most likely be willing to deal with you one on one, but as they get more comfortable with their position, the really start avoiding having to deal with customers directly. Ultimately, the price you get from the internet or floor sales guy will be determined by the sales manager anyway(whether they work your deal personally or set the pricing guidelines)
Nota4re:
Thanks for your comments. I always treat my customers with respect and if they choose to be rude ( I just recently had a really bad experience with a customer), i'd rather be honest then to the point of telling them something along the lines of "this isn't working out between us, my colleague will be giving you a call". I wouldn't consider those expectations arrogance. I've become pretty disillusioned with american business, because good customer service is really disappearing. Believe it or not guys, when I'm not at work, I'm a consumer just like everyone else. When i walk into a business I expect for the employee to at least pretend they enjoy their job, I don't need to hear their conversation with a co-worker about how they hate their manager, or whatever personal issues they have. Greet me, help me, and I'm on my way with a smile and a "thank you". I get sold stuff that I don't need all the time, but I'm the kind of person that needs that little extra push or I end up not buying things(which I guess is supposed to be a good thing, or so my lady says).