Colin

I'd guess so. I would be shocked if they were making the V6 in Japan just for this car. I don't believe the J series is used outside of NA. Is it? (China gets their TLs from Ohio). I know that the TL is 65% domestic content cause the transmission is made in Japan.

PetesTL

Hey, if you think the TSX V6 is a bargain, go sell your car and get it. Why are you comparing the TSX to the TL Type-S?......they have nothing to do with each other. The TSX is not a Type-S replacement no matter what you think. The TSX is Acura's entry-level car....to me, I find it ridiculous that Acura would charge so much just to get a V6 in there. Personally, if I'm going to spend $35K+ on a small, nimble, fast car....no way in hell would I get a TSX.....I would much rather get a EVO MR, WRX STi, or even a Mustang GT which are a lot more fun to drive. (or even a used M3 for that matter).

SSFTSX

Entry level is the 4cylinder. V6 TSX is not entry level. It has bigger rims and active nosie cancellation which TL lacks. same performance as TL 6MT Type S but with bigger rims. I am sure it will get better gas mileage than they car you mentioned.
we will see the NVH dba numbers when Edmunds tests it. It will right there with BMW 5/Lexus GS.

AsianRage

I've been looking a lot at the IS because of the kind of variety and sportiness that the IS line offers. For the price that the TSX is asking for, I simply do not want to consider the TSX because it is heavier and less powerful and offers only FWD.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

PetesTL, I think it was Road and Track that got 5.9s and 14.4@99mph for the TL SH-AWD. May be I'm not up to speed with C&D, but the fastest I've seen from them is 6.0s and 14.8@96 or 97mph (which goes on to show C&D doesn't always get the fastest time).

With that said, C&D got 0-60 in 5.5s and 1/4 mile in 14.1s@101mph in the 3G TL-S 6MT. SSFTSX, let's wait and see what C&D can get in the TSX V6 before we say which car is faster in a straight line. In terms of cornering though, there seems to be a pretty big gap. 0.83g from the TSX is a pretty average number, the TL is capable of 0.91g to 0.93g. Of course, skid pad numbers don't give us the full story in terms of handling. When you look at the track time of the TL-S at Willow Springs, it's a 2 seconds faster than BOTH the IS350 and G35 6MT, despite the fact that those are are faster in a straight line.

Acura has been well known for being a value brand, but they are moving away from that now. I expect to see less and less "value" luxury cars from them. IMO, tier-1 and value don't really go together.

AsianRage, as mentioned before from other sources, the K23T (the turbo 4) would not fit in the TSX. At this moment, I personally don't think Honda is as talented as say VW/Audi in terms of making turbocharged engines. I'm not too sure if it's easy for them to reduce lag. If you reduce power, it's not going to be fast. It's safer and probably cheaper for them to use the J35. Besides, the image of having a V6 is better than I4 (not to mention the smoothness, fuel economy, and sound quality). The J series by the way is a pretty compact engine and light weight. The added weight comes from many sources beside the engine (ie, larger/wider rims/tires, larger brakes, etc).

From what I've read and from a friend of mine who has a IS250 6MT, the IS isn't really a fun to drive car despite its RWD setup. It's like Ford Crown Vic isn't fun to drive despite having a V8 engine and RWD.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

SSFTSX, you are gonna like this:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=8141

Road and Track also got 0-60 in 5.9s and 1/4 mile in 14.4s (they don't show the trap speed though).

PetesTL

TSX is still entry-level, whether it has a 4-cyl or V6.......like putting a V6 into an Accord doesn't make it a TL. It's just an engine option....it doesn't automatically bump the car into a higher class. People who choose the TSX V6 do so because performance, not gas mileage, is the top priority. However, for the money, there are much better performing cars out there that are more fun to drive like the WRX Sti, EVO MR and the Mustang GT. If you care only about gas mileage and NVH dba numbers, then stick to the 4-cyl TSX or get a Lexus ES.

SSFTSX

14.4 second quarter mile is pretty good result on first test of TSX. It is still driving on 18*8 all season heavier tires.
When i changed my tire combo from OEM 17*7.5 to 18*7.5 chrome HPT. i see marked improved n performance upto 120mph tested as it is pretty light.
4cylinder TSX is beating V6 TL on NVH levels and new one has active nosie cancellation, furthern dampening in body panels. I am sure they really put into luxury category and thats what consumer wants.

SSFTSX

Caranddriver TL SH-AWD has 7855 mile on odometer. click on test data sheet.
It only achieved 0-60 at 6.5 sec and quarter mile at 15.1 second.

http://www.caranddriver.com/buying_g...omparison_test

dom

Their latest test, like iforyou said, (July issue) got 5.9 - 14.4

JD23

R&T was the one that got 5.9/14.4 in the July issue, but C&D got 6.0 flat for the TL in their initial test (not the recent comparison).

dom

oops, your right.

KeithL

While not as nimble as a TL it is still fairly nimble especially compared to any other Acura and it has more rear seat space than an IS.


As for AWD... well TSX lacks it for now... I suspect if the V6 gets good demand they may consider SH-AWD option, somewhere there were pics of under rear that looked like they considered it in the design.

Colin

I agree. The TSX V6 only appears to lack value compared to a TL. But compared to other V6 FWD near lux cars out there, it's not that bad.

I am left to wonder if the space under the TSX chassis is to accommodate an AWD option for the Accord. Of course, remember that this is VTM-4 and not the larger SH-AWD .

ll_22

I personally feel like if Acura is going to make a 3.5 TSX, then they should make a 3.7 TL FWD. They should do what Audi/BMW do right now and not make people who want more power be stuck with AWD (SH or not).

This way they won't lose too much clout with car mags because the acceleration number will be more competitive and those who want the SH-AWD can opt for it at the expense of some acceleration.

GearDriven

"Rims"...yeah..that makes it upmarket

active noise control -- probably needed since it lacks much of the physical deadening that the TL has...

oh and you are still stuck with FWD...which at that pricepoint makes you think maybe you should get RWD or AWD if "performance" is so key...

PetesTL

I thought I read something a while back that the reason why the 3.7 is not offered in the FWD TL's is due to the FWD platform not being able to handle the increased hp and torque. Now that I think about it, it would be somewhat scary to see 305 hp smoking and grinding the 2 front wheels into oblivion.

SSFTSX

It is already quieter than any other Acura in 4cylinder form.
Active Nosie they want to make it upmarket.
It is already faster than any other Acura in V6 form. What it needs is that $1K HPT option just like TL. or they can offer Sport suspension from EuroAccord Type S. you dont need AWD/RWD which will make it more expensive.
The car is more geared towards straight line performance in quiet environment and it excels in its role. 90% of TL are FWD.

winstrolvtec

In addition what PetesTL already mentioned, the SH also serves as a type s like, performance oriented variant of the TL. It really shouldn't be looked at as just an AWD model.

ll_22

Good point, forgot about that. Oh well, let's see what the 6spd MT and AT does for performance #'s.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Well, if you are talking about the newest Acura, then it's about the same as the TL Sh-AWD since R&T got 0-60mph in 5.9s and 1/4 mile in 14.4@99mph (if you want to say in other tests the TL is slower, well, it's the same answer again...brake torquing issue).

If you talk about previous Acura in V6 form, well, 3G TL 6MT and 3G TL-S 6MT are faster, not to mention the NSX.

ll_22

Hmmm, I was just thinking how the TSX 3.5L gets much better performance #'s than the TL 3.5L. According to R&T TSX V6 gains 210lbs over the I-4 engine, which puts its final weight virtually identical with the TL 3.5L.

The transmission is the same....what's the difference? The final drive ratio? Any ideas?

pokin

I just do not understand Honda's logic in forcing Acura models up to higher or different classes. The wild TSX swing between a 2.4L and 3.5L Tech pretty much covers everything from entry level to replacement 3G TL - too wide a net IMO. I guess this is Honda's approach to retaining 3G TLers who are not interested in the 4G. No offense to TSX owners... but I do not believe most TLers would comfortably 'step down' to a TSX badge - even with a 3.5 engine. Historically, these models have been miles apart in every way.

I have always thought:
4G TL-SHW should have been a new base badge (Tech vs. non-tech) with slightly more hp.
3G TL should have remained - with updated tech and engine upgrades for +20/30hp.
TSX should have upgraded engine to 3.0L and stayed in current niche.
Throw in the Accord v6 and it really gets confusing.

...But who am I to say. Honda/Toyota tend to make these odd-ball decisions and still rake in the sales.

SSFTSX

TL was with HPT tires and TSX was with all season. Second Sh-AWD gets better number initially because of AWD system. Let see what happens in 0-120 mile sprint.
These were on 17inch performance tires and were lighter cars.
As i said do apple to apple comprisions. TSX is the quietest, most aerodynamic and fastest Acura into triple digit speeds. No one can dispute.

JD23

You keep bringing up that the older TL had an advantage because it only had 17" wheels. At most, there is going to be about a 40 lb. difference between having 17" and 18" wheels, possibly even less. If large wheels are such a detriment to acceleration, why don't you mention that the TL SH-AWD has always been tested with 19" wheels?

dom

Don't really agree about being miles apart, but historically? The TSX has been on the market for 6 years. Not much history there.

Did you actually expect them to continue selling a 5 year old model next to an all new model? They're not GM.

The 3.5 is the same size and lighter than the 3.0. Not to mention that the 3.0L is no longer being made.

The only things wrong with the V6 TSX are the price and lack of an MT.

pokin

But that is plenty time to establish that the 2 models fit different classes.

Yes, if tech and styling was updated and performance improved. Many models do this. Frankly, I am indifferent about this - no big deal.

Bingo! bottom line - this is my real issue: a 2010 TSX V6 with a 39k MSRP? How could Acura justify the overlap in prices b/w the TSX and 4G TL? The TSX progression just seems a bit forced me.

SSFTSX

All season tires on regular rims are heavier than performance rims/tires. My 18 rims are lighter than OEM 17inch. TL-SH-AWD with 3.7L pretty much compensate for it.

dom

I think they've more or less succeeded. You said yourself not many TL owners would step down to a TSX.

Besides a few domestics that were kept around for rental fleets. can you name any? I can't recall any car that was kept around after all new replacement was announced. Keep in mind the costs associated with manufacturing and keeping 2 separate lines going.

Does seem forced. Seems Acura wanted to make a few customers happy but had no plans on losing money to do so. An MT would have probably added even more cost which they aren't willing to eat. Perhaps the price is high so that profit margins on the TL and TSX V6 are the same so they won't lose sleep over lost TL sales to the TSX.

JD23

Do you know the weight difference between the TL-S rims/tires, the TSX V6 rims/tires and the TL SH-AWD HPT tires/rims? You're making assumptions about how the difference in wheel and tire weight will affect performance without having any data.

GearDriven

Straight line performance? Ok then. *yawn* *returns to lurking mode* If I want straight line...I'll buy a Mustang, G8, Camaro, etc...

PetesTL

Yeah if performance is key, for $35K+, I'll get a EVO MR, WRX STi, Mustang GT, or even a Camaro SS which will not only blow away the TSX V6 in a straight line but run circles around it.

cp3117

You make a great point and i have been thinking this to for some time.

While I have been one thats been waiting for a V6 for some time in the TSX. What Honda is reminding me of is the old Muscle car wars back in the late 60's.

They have shoe horned an old engine into the TSX and upgraded the suspention a bit and the brake shoes and called it a day.....much like how in the 60's where you had a small block V8 then if you wanted more power you could order a big block and they would throw in an extra leave spring and an option for disc brakes and they believed all was fine.

When you look at all these first reviews the main complaints are handling and braking. Acura did a good job making a good straight line performer but they may have forgot about the rest of the performance that the TSX stands for....It will be interesting to see in the MMC or the 3G if they change a few things to improve on those areas in the V6 TSX.

You can see where Acura is trying to proceed with its model lines. I never really considered the TSX an entry level competitor as that is what the TL was for....now you can see they are trying to move the TL slowly towards the mid-level range hoping the TSX will finally be able to compete in the 3 series, A4, C-Class range. This is going to take a lot of time but if they can improve the quality, options, etc and do this in this tough economy then in about 5-8 years I can see them achieving their goal.

It might look forced now but im sure they are doing their market research etc and hopfully it will work out.

SSFTSX

They wont be quiet, they wont be reliable, they wont have resale value and they wont be efficient at higher speeds. I can drive TSX at 80mph for hours & still get 33 mpg. or better 22mpg @120mph. thats what superior aerodynamics represents. Only new E class or 2010 Prius can match it.

PetesTL

Well, that's the difference between sports cars and an entry-level luxury car like the TSX. Cars like the G8, Camaro, Mustang, WRX, EVO are all sports cars and things like noise and gas mileage aren't as important as performance. The TSX V6 is a good everyday car with some zip but it's not a performance car by any means.

(BTW, you can drive a Ford Focus at 80mph for hours and get 30+ mpg, so don't make it seem like your TSX is doing something special).

SSFTSX

Depends for what purpose your using car. I wont sit for hours in unrefined junk. Comfort/quietness/reliability/spaciouness are more important factors.
V6 TSX is not slow. It would be only 0.5 second difference at most with 335 at quartermile. and TSX still lacks 6speed auto transmission.
Ford Focus is POS. why some one would waste money on that.
And econoboxes like Fit/Civic/Corrolla rapidly lose there fuel economy advantage once you go above 70mph. the dont feel substantial. Feel like wind will blow them away from passing traffic.
I went from SF to LA in 4.5 hrs on I-5. when flow of traffic is at 70 to 80mph. u constantly needs drive upt 90/100 to overtake them in short burst.

winstrolvtec

The TSX V6 is a strong addition in terms of acceleration but it is only on par with the SH and the 3G TLS auto, not the 3G 6MT or TLS 6MT, regardless of rim (A-spec), and obviously not the upcoming SH 6MT. The TSX V6 should be faster than the 3G TLS auto and current SH 0-120 mph, but we need more hard data to confirm this. You can play the rim game all you want but usually Acura's upgrades maintain the same diameter and weight, occasionally adding 1-3 lbs each but the added traction compensates, so it's normally a wash. Best case scenario it actually weighs less than it's no more than a few lbs and in either event it's negligible. I wouldn't put that much faith into the NVH ratings, especially if it isn't done in a comparison. I wouldn't mind seeing the drag coefficients, the 3G was as aerodynamic as the last gen base Corvette, that's fairly impressive for what it is.

SSFTSX

Why You need more hard data?
MotorTrend has already declared TSX V6 faster than 4G TL-SH-AWD.
It is only 0.2 sec slower than TL-S 6MT at 0-60/quarter mile based on MT roadtest. and TL-S 6MT is so low to the ground with small rims.

R&T has made it equal to TL-SH-AWD in first test. let see when later tests improve it.
C&D/Edmunds has yet to test it. But it is foregone conclusion that it will be faster than TL-SH-AWD. Edmunds already achieved 65dba on 4 cylinder auto.
Whole point is fuel economy/NVH/Speeds above 100mph that no other Acura can match it.

JD23

I still don't understand why fuel economy and noise above 100 mph is so important. Where I live, it is impossible to drive 100 mph safely, so I consider this one of the least important attributes of any car.

KeithL

Yeah, sure interested to see what the MMC Type-S might bring to the table, could they add a super charger or just go 4L and crank up the HP, although the 2G wasn't the Type-S the same engine as the regular TL?