George Knighton

I cannot help saying that IMHO it's a tribute to the engineers that people are comparing the TL SH-AWD against some of the cars we're seeing comparisons with, including the Audi A6.

The Audi A6 is a very nice car, but it's not in the same class as the TL. The TL was meant to compete with the A4, not the A6, and personally I think it's amazing that it's so much better than the A4 that people are mentioning it in the same breath with the A6.

The possibility of an upcoming Advance Package in 2012 is something we really aren't absolutely sure about, and saying that it would include this and that, and not include this and that, is pure speculation at this point. We can be sure that it would include CMBS and adjustable suspension, and other elements that we already see on the ZDX Advance Package...but they have time to decide on things that aren't currently seen in any Acura Advance Package.

The nVidia graphics chip isn't so expensive that you would automatically rule out an upgrade to the navigation screen. :-)

cp3117

The thing is though, that most of the general public and automotive publicists aren't comparing the TL to the true mid-size luxury class. Its generally Acura enthusiasts and especially TL enthusiasts that are doing this in hopes of making their purchase seem better than it really was.

It would be like having a comparo with entry level Bentley's, Rolls Royce etc etc and then having someone start a thread saying what would my A8 or 7 series do in that comparo. It does everything the other Bentley's do (sometimes better) and has generally all the same options and a whopping $80k savings. Then that person could go on about value, reliability, etc etc and make himself feel all warm and fuzzy about his purchase, yet i would hope no one here would think that a A8 is on par with a RR etc.

The TL is a nice car though when compared to its true (main) competition in the entry level luxury segment, even though Acura does state in its marketing releases that it does aim it also at entry level mid size luxury vehicles too.

The TL is also a very nice competitor to the A4, but to say say its so much better is a bit of a exaggeration. There haven't been many comparo's this year with the 4G TL but last year it struggled to win any major comparo and I believe the A4 even beat it in a few.

Overall when you look at the facts in hand, you can clearly see that they made the right choice to not put the TL in this comparo. If they did it would of probably finished the same as the RL or dead last. The TL lacks in a lot of the luxury and refinement areas that the RL doesnt when comparing the two and in the final reviews the RL was still badly criticized for that compared to the others in the comapro.

George Knighton

That's a very reasonable response.

I think it's much better than the A4 if you're an enthusiast who really and truly likes to drive, and who wants a 6-6.

I freely admit that if you are not so much an enthusiast, you might be troubled by the aggressive nature of the TL (EPS, and need to speed up through a corner to use AWD, together with a tendency to be kind of edgy at speed on the highway), and in that case it's very reasonable to suppose that an A4 Automatic Quattro might be a better car for you.

YetiTL

I agree!

cp3117

If your comparing a 4G AT vs an A4 AT then i would disagree. An enthusiast would probably have a lot more fun in the A4 especially if your one that likes to do mods as you can do more with the A4 for a lot less than the TL.

If your comparing the 6-6 to a A4 2.0T with an AT then of course the majority would probably have more fun in the 6-6 in stock form. Its not even really close from a driving enthusiasts standpoint, but then again comparing those two specific drivetrain setups are for two very different people.

The 4G 6-6 is a nice driving car but if your an enthusiast that likes to push a car to its limits, there are much better cars out there in different categories for doing that...ie: EVO etc.

winstrolvtec

It seems to be a bad idea to even talk about how the TL compares and in some ways even competes against mid levels because for one you have too many people who feel the need to justify some of the higher entry costs as it is and then those who would be so insulted by the notion that the TL SH is a better option then just about all the base stock mid level luxury vehicles because of perception and ignorance.

No one is talking about how the TL is so much better than anything in the mid class. The only thing that was originally brought up was how well the TL measures up despite the fact that is not completely up to the class standards but at the same time it's a third of the price. It has been mentioned from the first post that it is not entirely up to the luxury and refinement and features and options standard of the class but outside of that and to those who want a true mid sized car at entry price but also with a capable platform, it is a tremendous value. There is nothing wrong with suggesting any of this because it is true. Some people decide they want to make more of it than it is, that is the problem.

Now I know someone will make an issue and say that it's not a good value. Well as I have stated a few times and if you actually shop the market you will see the size and compactness of most of the entry luxury class and might decide you need something bigger. Your only option at that point is to spend another $10k or more to get that especially if you don't want to sacrifice on the features and having a reasonably well equipped car and a sport capable platform as well.

Here is where the TL SH comes in because you can get all that but also at a lower price than a comparably equipped entry. It's the perfect combination of entry type car and pricing but with mid level size and comfort but also on a capable platform, where other cars like that have always been FWD in the past. For one thing that is rare and as we know anything rare is of "value". Secondly, it bridges the gap of the capable entry level and mid level and that can save one from having to take the full plunge into the mid level arena, where you will spend tens of thousand more, not suggesting you don't get more but at least Acura gives that option of something in between saving you money and anything that saves you money is of value.

Even if you don't have a need for a bigger car, there is no denying this, it's factual. The level of value it presents to another person may be less because of this but it's still a reality and applies to them also if they so choose to take advantage of that. If not that's fine but do not suggest that it is of no value based on your personal choice.

Well can't you get a base mid level for around the same price? Yes but it is still a little more and frankly, you get nada in comparison. Fact is the entry car at that price is much more loaded and regular old mid sized sedans from Honda or Toyota run you $28-$30k and come with more standard features. There goes the argument that it has to have features to be a real luxury car. Maybe options but not features and what good does options do if most of the units sold don't even have that extra stuff in it? Not many who buy mid levels even opt for that stuff in the first place. Perhaps we should move those that don't have the good stuff back down to being just a large entry level.

Does it really compete or belong in the segment? Honestly, there are just as many reasons to say yes as there are no. To give the benefit of the doubt I will just so no and even had it finished last in the comparo it still presents a more viable option because it's $10-$20k cheaper. Not being there, most will probably just favor the top three cause they all run around the same money anyway.

I think the question is not about whether it is truly up to par even being comparable and competitive, the question is if the extra costs in the mid level vehicles are actually worth it?

If you say no then the TL is a good option and a good value but even if you say yes that doesn’t change much of anything. If the mid levels are worth the extra money then it’s cause they have more things and extra refinement but all that really just means is one has more and charges accordingly and one doesn’t and that makes the TL the base or budget model type but also of that same type of vehicle, therefore also of the same class if you compare it like that. If someone even wants to dispute that and say it’s not the same class, it’s only entry then clearly it’s still a value because of what it offers in size over the entry class and those two disputing logics contradict no matter what. Reason being is the TL actually fits nicely in between the two classes. It can be a big comfortable, yet capable entry or a more basic well equipped mid level. Both still represent value.

The RL finishing last and the TL getting beat out against the A4 are not really factual. Yes it happened it was noted, written about and even published but they are a series, a group, a couple and even at times a single opinion or opinions that you can interpret as fact but opinion is never fact. The TL is not the RL and what the RL makes up for in luxury and refinement the TL has in performance, so even had the TL SH placed last it is still competitive and being significantly cheaper might bump it up a few places in the minds of consumers.

SSFTSX

ok TL-SH-AWD is $45k with discounts and A6 prestige is $55K without discounts. so at most $10k difference and still ur not getting All wheel Vented brakes, 3.0T DI engine, 3D navigation system, over 16cubic foot of trunk. and more color/wheel OEM options.
It is another matter that it does not appeal but it does not mean that AWD 3.0T is worse value than TL-SH-AWD. despite A6 higher cost. it has higher resale value. Try used 2009 A6 3.0T price anywhere in US and compared it with used TL-SH-AWD anywhere in US. u will get the answer. which lose value.


It C&D driver. Motortrend/R&T cant achieve the same result. A6 has same performance result both for MT/C&D.


u can pretty much dismiss this argument of bhp. it does not even matter. look at 0-100mph runs on any magazines.


over 10,000 TL-SH-AWD in one year? it is like selling 1000 a month of TL-SH-AWD. yes Audi sold alot of FWD cars in 2009. thats why it is so easy to find in used car place. A3 is very tiny sales.
for every FWD Audi 2009. there is over 20 FWD Acura sedans.


what is little luxury?. there is clear DBA difference in NVH. and u dont gain in value or resale. only reliability will matter but it will cost far more to service Acura brakes and SH-AWD over long run. safety is equal. A6 3.0T has different resale value.

YetiTL

I think we all agree the TL is a good value. I read the comparo and I must say the more I read and see luxury 50k$+ cars , the happier I am with my TL. Of course on an mathematical rating, the TL will win because it can do 95% of what the 55k$ cars can do for 40-43k$. So basically you get 90-95% of the stuff that matters for most mortasl while paying 75-80% of it. That a great deal and that's super cool.

But that's rational and when we talk luxury, we can't talk rationaly because Smart (or Sensible) Luxury is an oxymoron like «honest lawyer» and « intellectual cheerleader». Many people who dwells in those rarified atmosphere don't want to know you got a car that can do 95% of what theirs can do for 70-80% of the money. They'll be insulted. Most of them want to feel special so please, do yourself a favor and don't burst their bubble...

Truth is, take a TL SH-AWD 6MT, add lightweight wheels and some of the mods available and test the car against an S6 or a 535xi or M35whatever and look at the performance/price equation...then have fun with the 10k$ you saved. But again, it's all rational thoughts...

So my good man Wintrolvtec, while you make very good points, as does cp3117 and many others, debating about what is luxury and TL's place in a 50k$ comparo is bound to bring frictions...

The article was quite nice and it clearly showed we need a new flagship asap! Where's my Acura Legend with RWD biased SH-AWD, 6AT/6MT and 350hp?

winstrolvtec

I don't get what a supercharged DI engine has anything to with it. It's nice on paper and for bragging rights but the Acura 3.7 is rated for more power on a SOHC and standard fuel injection. If you want to argue mpg fine but it's only 1 mpg better. I don't see a big deal about the 3.0T especially when you look at the bottom-line figures.

The TL does not need all wheel vents, when you brake the car is mostly FWD. 3D navi is nice but higher resolution and effective voice prompts are useful too. 16 cubic ft of trunk space is great but the TL has more overall rear passenger room and looses out on most of that space cause of SH which has torque vectoring, unlike the A6. More color choices is just about the only thing they do give you for the extra money.


You can't even get any A6 for under $40k, that's why it's a worse value. Look at what you can get for a little more, a 3.2 FWD A6 with nothing, that's why it's a worse value. Very easy to see this. A used A6 will have a higher price because it costs more not because it retained more value. That's why you have to use percentages. They don't cost the same to start. Trust me I have had access to Galves book for over a month and I know where the A6 ranks, at the bottom. Resale is established in percentage not in price and is based on sold price and auction price, not what they list for. I can ask for 1 million for my car that doesn't mean it's worth 1 million.


So why would you say it has more performance?

What's wrong with that? They sold about 2800 TL's a month with about 1/3 being AWD. The selling rate for many dealers is about 1 in 3 so that is 33%. The build rate has much more FWD units in percentage but that is not the selling rate. I gave you a really good figure and you give me a dispute as usual.


Because Acura sells more, period.


LOL, ya because the A6 did it in 13.7 and the TL 6MT did it in 13.5. Hilarious. Whose point are you trying to prove, mine or yours?


You do gain in resale, reliability, and low cost maintenance as well as some other areas I have already mentioned in this post. You are just in denial. If you took the time to make a list of what the TL has over the A6 and for less money you would finally understand but you only want to be one sided. The brakes are insignificant, although they may be better all the torque will eat them up. The TL engine does not produce much unless really pushed. It has the performance when you need it and not when you don't. That is very smart engineering.

SSFTSX

bottom line figures? look at performance for 4200lbs vehicle with its refinement. V8 performance in merging and passing.
Acura has among the worst brakes. even lower life span than VW brakes. TL has more rear passenger room? A6 has 45cubic foot of rear passenger, has split fold rear seat, 16cubic foot of cargo. i want to see statistics of rear leg room and rear head room. what will torque-vectoring on snow?. no one use to pull high gs on daily driver. latest A4 avant with sport suspension achieves 0.92g in C&D test and that without rear sport differential. they key word is sport suspension.



i am talking about used A6 3.0T. it is not losing value in used market as quickly as TL-SH-AWD.

One third SH-AWD sale.



Acura dont sell more AWD sedans. period. and the gap is increasing in Audi favor. just A5/A4 alone sells far more than TL and A5 is close to 10k sales. (there is no FWD in A5 yet). A6 is close to 7k sales. A8/TT will be another 5K sales.
even conservative estimate of A4 will put 20K AWD sales. just among the higher end models u have 50K of AWD sedan sales.
TL SH-AWD/RL combined is not more than 15K sales. and i am being too generious with numbers.



Because A6 was not equiped with sport suspension/summer performance and above all it is 4150 lbs beast and it is with Auto transmission. ur still not getting this engine performance difference. even in Edmunds test which is the hardest. A6 achieved 0-100mph in about 14 seconds. which no TL can do in Edmunds test. no matter what transmission/tire it use.



ur not gaining any thing in resale/reliablity and low maintiance in first 4 years. do serious calculation. when brakes/standard maintiance is involved.
It is not smart engineering to have worse fuel economy/worse performance than 300 lbs heavier car.

winstrolvtec

For 15k more I expect a V8 and 30 more hp, not less.

The brakes can be changed with the $15k I saved and really depend on the driver. "Overall" rear passenger space. How else do you expect a car that is only an inch shorter in wheelbase to have less cargo while being a longer car.

The A4 is not the A6 and the TLS also pulled .92 but it is still inferior dynamically to SH and torque vectoring. The SH also pulled .92 and you don't have to pay extra to get that sport suspension or torque vectoring. You act like split fold is only a bad thing. I welcome it for rear stability and safety. If something doesn’t fit in my trunk I don’t want it in my car. Torque vectoring can be utilized buy VSA to assist in traction and control, it's not just for dry handling alone.

Give it a few years compare them at three years and when the new A6 comes out next year forget about the current A6 resale and we will see how well the next one holds up. The 3G TL does amazingly well despite a new model intro.

Sedans is one thing and what is your point? And what about the MDX and RDX? That is a lot of AWD cars, period.

Exactly it comes with nothing and is more money and the TL 6MT did not have the summer tires either. Edmunds did not test the production 6MT so what the hell do you know? The best time vs the best time and the TL is better, no surprise.

Maybe not but resale will benefit the TL in three years and for some people because a car is a long term investment, I would be very concerned about the long run. It's smart engineering to have better performance and the capability to have better mpg than EPA estimates because of engine characteristics and in a $15k less expensive vehicle.

SSFTSX

3.0T is as good as V8 both in refinement and performance for such heavy AWD car. 550I/535I is faster because they are lighter.



nothing less than $1000 for Audi class brakes.u can add after market navigation/rear view camera for $200. u can buy software for iphone for push button start. every thing can be done without tech package. and here TL lose more value than Audi.
A6 with sport suspension that is lowered by 20mm is entirely different beast.
It is much closer to S6 & RS6. with sport suspension u lose that luxury ride quality.


ur mistaken about alot of things. A6 will still hold value despite being 5 year old design. TL is not holding value despite being one year old. 3G TL is thing of the past and it is not holding value any more. i see couple of them in low 20s now for 07-08.


now u change subject by adding SUV.
Even if u add MDX/RX. just subtracting FWD TSX/TL makes Acura inferior brand in AWD. u can add Q5/Q7. it is like adding 24K AWD vehicles.


TL with summer performance tire cost $44K. and Audi will still beat it in straight line in Edmunds test. all season has longer life. u save money on tires. u need summer performance tires and 6MT to replicate performance of
A6.
yes i am waiting for those 3 years. it seems this only thing left to discuss.

winstrolvtec

This is just not true. The way Acura builds cars is different. Everything is included and the only real option is tech or not so by building cars this way they all experience the same types of resale. Most German brands are different, in auction books the price is set on the engine model and they add a few dollars for only a few key features and components. Otherwise some stuff like a cold weather package or convenience package don't get factored into the resale so it’s a complete loss.

If I pay for tech I will get the usual resale value of it back. So if tech is $3k and in 3 years the car has 60% resale, the true cost for the tech package is only $1200. You are better off this way instead of buying all this other stuff, plus sometimes you get more like an upgraded stereo and voice commands. It's much much more than a navi system and camera.

That is not true. Seriously I understand where you are coming from but take it from me. I just finalized my deal yesterday and I got 62% back on the purchase price of my TLS. That is 62% resale for a 3 year old car and with a new model already replacing it for 2 model years. This was for a trade in, private sale would have been around 72% from sale price. So lets assume I bought the car for $36k I can sell it for $26k now as a real sale price, not list. The list price is almost $28k and it's over 3 years old.

Nothing holds value like this. The 4G is expected to do very similar but honestly no one will know until then but Germans have never had that kind of resale ever. What Acura does in resale is almost unheard of and it's because they are reliable and they include everything.

No, I want to know your point. That does not make Acura inferior in AWD. They have had SH AWD for only 6 years and we don't have real stats. Besides Acura has more popular FWD models than Audi, this is not a bad thing. They just sell more cars FWD, AWD whatever, it doesn't matter. They probably profit more on the FWD units sold anyway.

What are you psychic? Do you work for Edmunds? Even if they do, so what? If one place has the TL faster and another the A6, it still proves nothing.

Yes please, come back in three years, I don't bother the people at Audi forums.

magbarn

You're making quite the assumption that you will be able to get $5K off on the TL after the MMC. My wife and I cross shopped the advance/tech MDX with the Pilot and could not get the deals that people were getting on the 07-09 MDX previously. Most likely due to the upgrades and Honda has decided to continue to produce the MDX at much lower levels than previously. The MMC TL will most likely have significant changes to the exterior and hopefully will increase it's appeal. Coupled with likely decreased production (You think Honda likes to discount their cars by $5k?), you're going to have a hard time getting that much discount in the first year or two...

winstrolvtec

A certain individual is making an assumption that there will even be an advance package on the TL. I am just discussing opposing views with regards to that. Just to elaborate on the assumption that there might be one and if it even costs $50k, 10% less for a car in that price range is usually invoice. So as long as you could manage invoice you will get it for that price under those assumptions.

The MDX and Pilot are completely different cars. Honda/Acura production was less then usual on these SUVs, especially the Pilot. Leasing on the Pilot continues to stink because of the demand on low inventory. Part of that is to push the 09 MDX a little more which was and is having quite a few incentives for a while and discounting better than most Pilots. The reason you are seeing more of a price demand for the 10' is because of the MMC and dealers wanting to clear out the 09's which you could steal right now. When they are gone dealers will start to push the '10 as well. For this reason, when any new model year is released, not just MMC, the first couple of months the lease rates are always higher and dealers don't move much on them.

It's all about timing, some times it happens sooner or later but no matter what if you are patient you can get that deal at some point. The 09 MDX's are clearing out now anywhere up to $2k below invoice due to incentives or a total of $6500 of savings. It's only a mtter of time before this happens with the 10'. If there is an advance TL, at some point we will see these kind of deals also. As for the Pilot in my area I won't even try on a 10'. There is just not many around and fat chance Honda will give anything to help sell them, not to mention the lease on them is horrible to the point that you are btter off getting the MDX, if you are going to lease. Other parts of the country might have more luck.

SSFTSX

Audi has standardization but it is on grades like Premium/Premium Plus/Prestige. and than u have drive select and rear sport differential in A4/S4. it gives option of both sporty and luxury setting. Drive select is like buying two cars into One for those who understand. wile A6 has sport suspension with 20mm lowering option. ur mistaken that ur going to lose money on new Audis. prestige package is hard to find. while almost every Acura has tech package so it is no differentiation in used car market. ur still not getting this point. In right color with S line/prestige package Audi A4 2.0T is holding more value than any Acura.

this car dont even has S line package.




tech is pretty much written off once it is older than 3 years. u wont get any.
and after market stuff has some unique advantages like real time traffic without paying, same cell phone for starting car.


3 year old TL i can buy under $25K without any haggling. even 2008 Type-S asking price is now below $30K. and remember these are asking prices for certified cars not the deal price.
that Acura dealer must be broke that is giivng u that much and selling TL-SH-AWD at $5k Discount. but u wont be find A6 3.0T/Prestige package that easily. that that is design as old as 3G TL.

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.js...standard=false

above car is under $27K certified 2007 TL-Type S and under 30K miles. and it is asking price.



TL-Type S values are collapasing. i found one under $25k blue pearl. TL-SH-AWD will be even worse than that after three years. $44K car will be under $22K.


nope Acura is not making any money. it is just piggy backing Honda. there is no serious R&D investment in new Platforms/engines/transmissions/aerodynamics/lightweight materials/forced inductions/DI/Diesel/hybrid engines. Audi profits now alone exceed the whole Honda that included Motorcycle division. This is called premium brand with non discounting cars.


same tires/suspension with similar conditions give correct results. Edmund is the most conservative one.

Its good atleast u drop that rear seat space TL advantage. u will slowly be converted that there is no value in car and it cannot be compared to mid luxury automobiles.

magbarn

I wondered about this... Honda has really punted on engine tech. Where's A-VTEC? Where's a valvetronic competitor? Where's direct injection? All they've done is taken the J-series and just kept increasing displacement. Infiniti may have done the same thing with their VQ, but at least their 3.7 liter produces more power and they had the balls to actually dump money on a RWD platform. I wish honda made a RWD TSX, I'd cancel my 335d order in a heartbeat. But alas, for me and my needs/wants only Acura SUV's interest me...

winstrolvtec

All we have to go from is what history has laid in front of us. A 3 year old A6 loaded V6 with 36k miles and in excellent condition has a blue book trade of $24,425. That is a $50k+ vehicle. For a TLS with excellent condition and 36k miles it's blue book trade value is 24,500. This car was a $39k sticker and is holding more value 3 years later. You loose around $25k in the A6 but only around $14k in the TL. Do you understand how this works? The A6 lost more value, a lot more.

Drive select is like buying 2 cars into one right? Well with the money and monthly payment you save on a TL SH compared to a comparable A6 you save $300+ a month in lease payment and $400+ a month in finance. You can actually buy two cars with the money you save. Say something now.

I will sell you my TLS for $26k if you want it, that is not the problem and that does not make it low resale. I bought the thing for $36k 3 years ago, if I get $26k or $25k now that is excellent resale value. I drove the car for 3 years for only $10k, plus interest. Do you understand now?

The TL SH is discounting well and I will tell you what, the blue book trade for an 09 SH tech is still 80% of sticker. That is still excellent.

This is only assumption, that cannot be decided right now and check my example above on the 1 year old TL SH. All car values are collapsing it's a new year and all cars continue to depreciate with time. Not just the TLS my friend.

LOL. They are using a piggy back cause it saves money and increases profits and no R&D means they spend no money on it and that is expensive. If they get $30k for an Accord and make money then use the same platform for a TL tech but charge $10k more, that is almost all profit. You don't know what you are talking about. Look at BMW, #2 luxury brand in the sates plus all global sales, motorbikes, Rolls Royce, and Mini but they posted almost no profit in 2009. Ya, only 80k non discounted units really makes up for it. Worldwide Audi probably is in good shape but in the states they are hurting and it’s no secret.

But at the same time and with the same driver. Likely you are not going to find this outcome.

Picking it tomorrow but thanks anyway. I will be taking a check for several thousand, lowering my car payment and driving away in a brand new car. Ya that's because Acura has no value, right, get lost. Tell me about the TL when you actually have owned one, this is my third, and tell me about any Audi when finally buy one of those too.

SSFTSX

History is no guide to future resale values. Audi brand has moved up market relative to competition. Acura brand has moved down market relative to competition. 5 years aga A6 3.2 will lose all magazine competition against RL/BMW/Lexus/MB. Now it is either No1 or No2 depends on test criteria. while Acura cant even win entry level. Blue book is irrelevant when u can easily get 30K mile TL-S for under $25K and that is certified with rear spoiler.
3.2V6 A6 is not $50K+. unless it has right equipment levels. at most $45K for 2007 model. 2007 TL-S tech package was $38K and it was the best Acura model at that time. 2006-07 3.2 is rare to find. so blue book is meaningless.
and u have to keep two car maintiance, two car depreciaiton, two car registration renewal. one great car is better than two mediocres.
Every Acura dealer has certified TL-S in that price range. i can find TL-S dime a dozen in used car market. as i said before new TL is so bad that Acura dealer are wiling to risk money on 3 year old TLs now. that say some thing about new TL.
so Blue book trade 09 TL-SH-AWD is $34K. so it lose $10k from MSRP.


thats why i am asking show me A6 3.0T/prestige 09 or A4 2009 S line package values. because they are rare and not losing any value. About Audi it is degree of customization along with color that decide the value


I think u have lot of misunderstanding. converting $30K Accord into $40K TL dont mean profit when u look at expenditure of separat brand. unless that is global brand selling 1 million auto moblies around the world and most of them AWD.
I dont consider BMW as some kind of great managed company or there interiors are good. It is Audi engines and platforms that are behind alot of other brands in world. BMW dont have that scale.



congratualtion for buying TL-SH-AWD. I dont consider middle of road opproaches to luxury. either at bottom of luxry at $30K or my choice at
$50K+. with deeply customized car in color/rims/packages. this standard in the middle ($40K) is not for me.

winstrolvtec

And you can get the A6 for less than the KKB too, what is you point? The TLS comes standard with a spoiler, it's not an option. The A6 was loaded except for the S-line, at the 24,425 trade value. Blue book is not meaningless, it's fair guide for both. You can get a TLS for less and an A6 for less but those are the book values. It's not fair if you only want to use the good Audi numbers and the bad TL numbers.

Not unless you need two great cars for the price of one and that is great too.

They are actually going to make money on it no matter what because of the strong resale so they are risking no money and worst case they will not loose and they are a dime a dozen cause TLS owners are getting the new SH cause it's so bad.

Right, a car looses the most value in it's first year. In this case it's about 20%. Second year around 10% more, then 3rd, 5%. So you are looking at a possible 65% resale in 3 years.

That's not on KBB. You are not showing me that either. I don't want to see selling price either. The same trade book for the TL SH and A6 equal milage and condition.

Acura is not global besides US, China and Canada so you can't compare it like that. I was talking US.

Why thank you but spending anything more on anything else doesn't make sense to me. When I want to spend more I will skip $50k-$60k+ and get a real car like an Audi RS or BMW M series, maybe even an AMG for not much more at that point. The money I save on the TL and the great resale will help me get there, that is if Acura doesn't have something like that by then.

Rugel

SSFTSX you troll!!! please GTFO!!!

He does the same thing on Tov as well and why are you even driving a Tsx??

TechnoCat

That's not a tribute to the TL or the engineers, but rather to the enthusiasm of AcuraZine members over pure logic. When you read the posts here, most posts comparing the TL favorably are from people who have never owned equivalent Audis. (And no, 4-banger low-end models don't count. You can't compare a $32K Audi to a $40K Honda.)

Meanwhile, there are at least three of us pretty hard on our TL SH-AWD 6MTs because we've owned Audis or BMWs and see the real differences. And we call it a luxury gap or similar. But the fanboy reaction is to claim that luxury and value are on the same scale.


The TL is not an Audi:

• It doesn't feel nearly as solid. (NO, it does not. Don't even argue.)
• Missing lots of small touches like soft surfaces (again, get in an Audi before claiming otherwise), reticulated trunk hinges (to which some wanker claimed it didn't matter - hey, it's a touch and it does - that's what luxury is), better pop-up sunroof controls, folding rear seats, flat trunk bottom.
• Missing big touches like real full-time AWD. (No, SH-AWD is not in the Audi Torsen category. It's great on dry, but it's in full-slip mode from a stop on slippery conditions. Look for my posts on this.)
• Rear Wheel Bias (or at least neutrality) matters too.
• Tilt-adjustable headrests
• Height-Adjustable Lumbar Support
• Cargo Net - seriously, why was this left out of the TL as it comes from the dealer?
• Ability to choose Celsius for thermometer - why was this left out? The fact that YOU don't care doesn't mean it doesn't matter.
• Head light washers in the U.S. (And someone responded "Something to break; you don't need them here." If Honda can't build headlight washers as reliable as Audis, that proves the TL isn't in the same league. Seriously. His need isn't relevant.)
• Low-End Torque. I've mentioned this before too.
• Under-door lighting. Again, why isn't it there?
• Under-seat drawers? My TL has the worst storage of the last four sedans I've owned. Not that it doesn't have any, but what it does have isn't as flexibly-usable as what I'm used to. (And the sunglass holder rattles ferociously when used to hold glasses.)

The Acura TL has two things way above the equivalent Audi (which, unfortunately, they stopped making last year - by which I mean a six-cylinder stick - unless you want to step up to the S4.)

1. Value. But that's not a "luxury" thing. if you ignore all the missing small touches, the TL costs maybe $5-8K less than an otherwise equivalent German car. But you do have to ignore all those finishing touches, which is what defines "luxury" to me.
2. Reliability. But remember that the ultimate luxury brands are Ferrari, Lamborghini, Rolls, Bentley, Aston Martin, etc.... and none are particularly reliable.

In short (too late, I know ) the Acura TL is compared to the Audi A6 by overlooking what makes the A6 desirable to its segment and because fans of the TL are enthusiastic. But the real world isn't doing that same comparison.

TechnoCat

I disagree completely. Your post is merely trying to justify the particular point on the scale you like. Consider that, by using your logic, you can buy a $27K Mitsubishi (or Subaru) with AWD that will equal the TL in the same 90-95% range as the TL equals (in your mind) more expensive cars that way. By that logic, the TL is an equally bad value.

Or you can look at it for what you get. Pay more above the $27K range, you get more space, more luxury. Go Audi instead of TL SH-AWD, you lose some space and speed, but get even more luxury and even better AWD.

YetiTL

Nah, I think you imply too much from what I wrote but you got the point 100 % correctly. And yes, you are right, a 27-30k Mitsu or Subaru is a better value than a TL since it can do 90 % of the stuff the TL do for 60-70% of the money. In fact, you are so right than I effectively think my TL is a bad value car...compared to my old 2003 Honda Civic which was costing me 0 $ per month in car payments...

I'll say that very honestly, Technocat, and don't feel wronged or angry about it: you are a prime example of most luxury car buyers and it's far from being a negative thing. In fact, being able to appreciate the value in the finer things is a great quality imho. I, myself, is a fan of fine liquors and cigars and tailed suits. To each his own guilty pleasures!

The way I see it, ppl have expectations regarding any products they buy AND we can all agree most humans process fall within a "diminishing return" pattern meaning the rate of return isn't the same as the rate of expenditure. Basically, a Hyundai Accent represent a better value than an Aston Martin since both are used to get from point A to B. By better value I mean: what is a lowest cost possible to fulfill a need (or desire)? Simple mathematic and economic will show clearly than a 10k car is a better value than a 270k car, it's not rocket science.

But...

My whole point in this thread was to state than a discussion about value vs. luxury is slippery at best or retarded at worst since it depend on two things: 1) what is the point of reference 2) what is it compared to. In our present case, the waters get murkiers since we talk about subjective value between closely related goods: 40-50k cars. The economic value being so close (more so than a 10k car compared to a 270k car), it becomes very difficult to really make a clear-cut judgement on what is a better value vs. what is luxury or "near-lux"? Hence, people get their undies all twisted and wet and call names without a reason.

I don't doubt an Audi S6 or A6 offer slightly (or much more, I don't care) more luxury than a TL, in fact I expect it to be much more luxurious or I would be disappointed. It's just that from a "value" stand point, the TL is better. So is a Mitsu compared to a TL and so forth.

So, don't feel angry at me, I respect your opinion and I value it very much. In fact, I really appreciated how you described your experience with AWD systems and such so my comments in that thread wasn't directed at you.

winstrolvtec

First and foremost, the TL is not up to the "luxury" standards of the mid level luxury sedan class. The only thing that was really brought up for discussion, specifically by me, was that the TL should get more consideration for an in between segment vehicle because of it's level of size, space, and comfort as well as performance like one other car in the comparo did. So I really don't understand why there is such a debate for something that was not even suggested?

I don't want to go over the whole value thing again. Luxury and refinement can be matched or exceeded in the entry segment within the same price range, the TL SH's combination of size and performance capability cannot. So I don't care how you look at it, it's a great value.

The other thing is that the opinion of what luxury is or what it should be will vary from person to person. Acura's reliabilty, resale and superior recognition of crash test ratings is better than what the more luxury oriented or perceived brands are capable of producing. Some think that these things don't really define luxury but others think if it is to be considered real luxury and it should be more expensive because of this then it should also excel in these key areas.

If luxury is defined by only a few things like refinement, options and price and not other equally important things and value plus luxury really cannot coexist, then I guess I don't want a luxury car. Most of the things that make the mid level luxury sedan appealing to it's class like V8 and advanced tech and options are also not things that 75% of it's consumers actually buy and opt for, so basically they are in it for just about the same things that makes the TL appealing but minus a few key privelages. They are trading refinement and prestige for reliability and resale but the important thing to remember is the TL still costs far less money.

YetiTL

Luxury and value don't go hand in hand together as both reflect a different perspective of the «diminishing returns» of all things built by humans. The more you go toward luxury, the more you'll pay for it, exponantialy.

For the record, I don't give crap if my car is considered a luxury car or not. My clients know me well and they appreciate my professional skills far more than what kind of car I'm driving. Same goes for my friends and family. Some of them will never use a car worth half the price of the TL yet their net asset value is 10-100 times greater than mine because they made smart investment moves throughout their lives. To each his own and it's all good unless you think your way of living should be the standard for everybody...

Btw Winstrolvtec, do I understand correctly that you're taking possession of your new TL SH 6MT soon? If so, congrats and welcome to a 4G owner!

In the end, as long as we drive a car that's meaningful and stir our soul, it's all that matter...

I know my TL stir my soul everytime I look at it and even more each time I drive it so I must have taken a good decision....value or luxury or anything wise!

YetiTL

Uhmmm....I live in Canada so I got the headlight washers, mwhahaha!

Otherwise, great post as always! I agree completly about the seats, the head rests (that my major beef with the car) & the low-end torque. Having to make the engine climb up to 3000 RPM to get some passing power isn't that great but at least, it's there once you get to 3 000+ RPM!

As for luxury vs. value, well it's like to choose something with your heart or your brain.

Lastly, for the reliability, this is something I made peace with a long time ago. The more complicated and finely tuned something is, the more likely it'll break up since there is no margin of error left to absord some slack.

It's like with olympic athletes. Did you know that some gold medalists blew their career because they played some low intensity games outside their training plan? They become so focused on 100m. sprints (for example) that playing a small game of basketball is dangerous for their career (strained muscle and ligaments and such...). For me, it's the same with cars: the speediers/ more focused on performance they are, the less reliable they become.

winstrolvtec

The new car is a done deal, I picked up her up earlier today. Thanks for asking and for the welcome Yeti, I appreciate it. I am playing with a few things and getting all the settings and controls set up at the moment and all that good stuff. I will post a thread with all the details a little later. I just can't stay away right now and I really could not be any happier.

winstrolvtec

I do see where you are coming from but maybe you are not being as unbiased as you think you are. I don't see a list here of why the TL is not a luxury car, I see a list of things you have grown personally attached to as a preference but I am sorry most of these differences would be the same if you bought another brand or even just another car. I don't see how this is TL or Acura exclusive and that it really has anything to do with luxury.

Seriously, read it from someone else’s perspective who is just in the market, not from a position of I came from this brand or that brand and here is what I miss. You can upgrade to a 100X better car and still find things you miss about the old one, it has nothing to do with luxury.

It does not feel solid. Ok I cant really argue that, most German makes do just feel solid in general and on the road, no doubt but a large percentage of that is the steering and the special attention paid to door and window seals. So many times BMW owners say man my car is so heavy, solid and safe. Yet it only feels solid, is usually the lightest in class and isn't any safer than anything else but that "feeling" brings perception.

Here I see the difference between German and Japanese philosophy, not luxury and non luxury. Lexus does not have that feel either, although maybe some of their models are better than Acura's are in that regard it's not really luxury defining. Many people actually attribute "soft" to luxury, only German brands and their enthusiasts link firm and hard with luxury. American luxury brands don't and Japanese luxury makes, not so much.

They trade touches and materials in different places. Two nice interiors, nothing more nothing less. Does your trunk open when you want it to? Are you able to place things inside? Then who cares about the hinges? Flat would have been cool but I am sure there is a reason for it and the same thing goes for split fold seats. Acura would not have done that to the TL if they didn’t think the TL customer base would really mind and they don’t. Better pop up sunroof controls. Ok part of this was you did not know how to use it and the other part is it doesn't really do it, but it's nice and big right? Likely bigger than most, so just try and look on the positive side of things and what you gained instead of lost.

You know very well how SH functions and every system has it's pluses and minuses, that does not make one better than the other overall or one luxury and the other not. If you needed something different for you needs you should have thought of that before hand.

The SH has rear wheel bias when necessary. Do American and Japanese car makers use headlight washers and wipers? Headrest and Lumbar is the only real thing in there that applies to the discussion. The cargo net is an accessory, I got one with both 3G TL purchases but clearly dealers are cutting back, you can buy one or should have made sure it was included before purchase, no big deal.

The Celsius thing would work great for YOU right? NO ONE else gives a sh!t. This is not the only luxury brand or car to do without it. Doesn't matter where the torque is as long as you have it, that's the bottom line. Not to mention the 6MT has pretty short gearing so you get to that torque real fast. Not having it down low means you can greatly influence your gas mileage by how you drive, that is a good thing. Stop perceiving everything different as a negative.

The TL actually has under door lighting. Have you looked? What kind of lighting do you want? How many brands have under seat drawers? Does Audi even have that on new models?

I think there is one thing that you are missing and you said so yourself, Audi does not offer what you are looking for and in a reasonable price range so you went for a TL. But instead of being grateful and just enjoying it, you are semi bashing. As much as you would like to have all those things and think it makes Acura somehow lesser, the funny part is you still bought a TL in spite of all this. Boy they must be doing something right and clearly the Audi is not a TL or an Acura either and if you still want to deny it, beggers can't be choosers.

TechnoCat

Ah, but you miss the point entirely. I can appreciate the car for what it is, and still recognize what it isn't. I'm not "semi-bashing" it, but unlike you, I'm also not claiming it isn't something other than what it is.

I bought the TL SH-AWD 6MT knowing it isn't a luxury car. Not only did you apparently confuse it for something else, but you appear to now be engaging in self-delusion to avoid some form of remorse, rather than enjoying the car for what it really is. A quick, reliable, feature-laden sedan, but not an Audi competitor (which was the topic at the top of this page.)

winstrolvtec

Your definition of luxury varies from mine and if you reread post #1 you can see I never directly compared it to anything in the mid level class and one of the first things I said was it does not fully compete in total luxury and refinement but I think I proved my real point that the TL can be considered a joint segment vehicle. There are plenty of other reasons why a car might compete without it having anything to do with luxury or necessarily being in the same class.

With the TL SH you have what is technically a luxury mid sedan just like the rest and it hits on all the key areas the others do with exception to total refinement, some luxury, features and options but it gains or makes up for it in several other areas and it's less expensive. That makes it competitive against these type of vehicles, nothing more nothing less.

It's true most of the world is not doing this type of comparison because the TL SH is not getting the in between segment consideration that it should, that's why I posted this thread. You also don't view the car as luxury but the rest of the world does, so that doesn't make your side of the story any better. Trust me I have no remorse about this car, I have waited over a year just to get it and know way too much about it already for only having it a day, that is a product of spending too much time here but knowing full well what it is and what I am purchasing and believe me I have never been happier with a car ever and my deal didn't warrant any remorse either.

I see a lot of remorse coming from your direction and it's crystal clear with the personal annoyances list and you insisting that it is not luxury although it is classified as such, maybe to try and justify the differences in the car or brand and Audi not having what you want and for the price. To clear up my last point in the other post, competing does not have to be head to head in a comparo or in a shoot out style review and it doesn't have to win anything, all it has to mean is it was cross shopped by consumers and if I am not mistaken you did that against Audi and probably not just the A4. So you are just denying something that was a part or your reality. Debating anything more than that is just making a discussion on something that wasn't even implied or said.

GrigioTL

Winstrolvtec,

First of all, congratulations on your new TL. Now to my point. It is not a myth that Acura products are generally not considered on the same level as Lexus, Mercedes-Benz and BMW. There are lots of articles out there that point to Acura's brand perception problem. I agree the Acura TL may represent a great value but it lacks in the level of refinement and luxury that you may come to expect from a BMW, Mercedes-Benz or Lexus. I have owned a C-Class, 3 series, two Lexus IS', two TL's and one TSX. So I really have no attachment to a specific brand in my assessment - just calling it like it is. I also never buy the same brand back-to-back.

Another problem Acura is facing is the dealer experience. I came out of a Lexus in September and I can tell you that the dealer experience at Acura is not even close to what you get at Lexus. I am really talking about the sales and service experience. Acura executives have also publicly acknowledged that they need to improve the dealer experience to achieve their so called tier 1 luxury status (which seems to have been scraped). I know you don't consider RWD a luxury feature but the automotive industry has long equated FWD with mass market brands and RWD with luxury marques. I think the lack of RWD has hurt the Acura brand. At the end of the day, it is really about which vehicle works for one's needs and not which vehicle is luxury or not.

SSFTSX

It will be generic A6 just like generic BMW 528/530. It wont have sportsuspension/S line/Prestige package combined. The more exclusively u customized ur German car. the better it holds value. how was A6 loaded?. TL is pretty standard every where. A6 is not standard. it is about finding the right combination. which sub luxury brand like Acura dont offer. 2009 model Audis in used market are even harder to get.



how they they are not losing. they are selling TL-SH-AWD at $5K discount. and buying ur TL at $26K tradein. ur TL is FWD drive. I can buy nowused FWD TL for $30K 2009 model without much haggling.

2009TL tech used is now $30K. which is 25% decreased from first year. u cannot find Audi A6 3.0T losing 25% in first year. infact u wont even find Audi prestige 3.0T in used car market.


KBB is meaning less.
Audi A6 2010 prestige sport pacakge avg price is $53K based on true car report.
http://www.truecar.com/Audi/A6/2010/...olorInfo=Night Blue Pearl,Amaretto/Black,5903_001_7X7X.jpg&optionInfo=6282317,6504460 ,6282304,6282300,6282292,6282301,6282298,6282309,6 282291&incentiveIds=0&trimId=313053&modelId=19232& zipcode=94065
Acura is $41k average.
http://www.truecar.com/Acura/TL/2010...olorInfo=White Diamond Pearl,Ebony,5667_001_WH.jpg&optionInfo=6357727,635 7724&incentiveIds=0&trimId=321308&modelId=19998&zi pcode=94065


A company has too make money on global bases. have u tracked stock market. Companies like HP are doing better than Dell because they have greater brand name overseas. Audi car are more expensive so more profitable. so they have to sell in alot of markets.
and Audi with its deep pockets can give u more standard equipment without price increase and they i have believe customer loyalty discount.
they are adding more standar features for 2011. I would not be surprized what with huge sale. they will make Navigation as standard in near future as it wont cost them more than $1000 bucks and when u add it to million cars. it is pretty much pay for it.
http://www.gearlog.com/2010/01/audi_...d_radio_fo.php
Audi Adds Standard HD Radio for 2011



I am moreinclined towards more luxury. and $50k range is not big difference than $40k range when it gives u more value. RS/M series are not luxury and quiet and they are gas guzzlers for daily driving not to mention expensive maintaianance. Real catch coming is S7.

cp3117

Well said.

Trying to justify something by the means of a mathematical rating IMO can be even worse.

A good example is the new Buick Lacrosse. It has more leg room than a BMW 7 series and many of the same features (vent seats, heated wheel, HUD, rear entertainment etc etc). One could easily say it does 90-95% of what the 7 series does for 40% of the cost. (I dont think anyone here would consider those two comparable, but then again this is the TL section of Acurazine).

A even closer example is the Lacrosse vs Acura's flagship the RL and even then the Lacrosse has more features and one could say the lacrosse does +95% of what the RL does for 70% of the cost. Then compare that to the TL and the Lacrosse is an incredible value as it has about +35% more luxury features for much less money than the TL.

I think the big thing is maybe how Asian car purchasers vs German purchasers consider what luxury is. As you can see by some posts here people are just happy if their trunk on a car just opens and closes. Where others appreciate the simple engineering and luxury in a reticulated trunk hinge that helps increase cargo capacity and the potential of damaging property inside when closing the trunk. This is just one many MANY features the German brands provide ie: auto sensing wipers, one touch signals, Auto up/dn on ALL windows, better seating controls etc etc etc.

In 2006 i was shocked when I went into Acura to look at a TSX and they said this was comparable to A4 or 3 series. The TSX was still using a prop rod for the hood, manual door locks, no headlight washers, no auto windows, no psg seat back element (because honda couldnt figure out how to design it with the airbag sensor) etc etc. Mind you all of these features and many more could be found on the competition and even a lowly non-luxury VW Jetta had all of those features.

IMO i think most asian car purchases believe luxury is comparable to any other brands as long as you have power windows, locks, air, leather and Navi etc. The reality is though that you can basically get all those features on any car these days but the extras and quality of materials is what makes a car a luxury vehicle or not. Unfortunately these extra features and quality come at a cost and most asian car consumers just dont appreciate it or value it. This though is another reason why Acura's are generally cheaper than the competition and I think its good marketing on Acura's part.......Provide the basic features to make people believe its a luxury car comparable to higher brands but leave out all the little luxury features and quality that make those brands what they are out in order to keep the price down and give the perception that its comparable. We could then get into the whole dealership experience and its correlation with luxury but thats a whole other topic and Acura again doesnt compete well on this level either.

winstrolvtec

Everything was added except the S-line, it was loaded, go and see for yourself. You think I am making this up?

I never said I got $26k trade in. How could I get that? That is what they sell for. After the tax trade in credit and skipping one months payment, I came close to that, losing about $1k not selling it myself but it was not worth the time and trouble for only $1k more. You will never trade in for market value unless you pay sticker or more on the new car, maybe.

You say use the prestige and S-line and I will see good values but then you want to quote FWD TL Tech models instead of the SH. Of course an 09 TL will sell for so little there is still new 09 models in the dealer lots. The SH is losing about 20% and that is also because one year depreciation is the worst. No one is going to buy a used 1 year old car, they will get a new one, that's why one year retention is meaningless, you should start to look at two years but three is the most important. The A6 3.0T loses at least 20% also and the next A6 will crush this value, where the TL is already on a new model cycle.

This says nothing except the Audi more expensive and the TL less. These are new car prices, what does that have to do with it?

A company has to make money, not necessarily globally. Audi has started giving more standard equipment because they have to in order to remain competitive. The #1 knock on them and other german brands is they nickle and dime you on everything. So they are following Acura and realize that somethings are better to just give standard and save the cost of manufactering. If they can give more standard then why don't they? They have added more standard into the packages not necessarily the base car. Navi they won't, HD radio is cheap and they will but it sucks and is like peanuts on an airplane to include it for what they charge.

Well if you are going to spend that money and want to distance that kind of car from the TL you should also get a V8 and loaded and that is $60k+ and at that point lots of other cars become an option too.

YetiTL

Well, I used a mathematical example because I thought it would be much easier to understand. Your reactions as well as Technocat's is exactly what I was looking for when I posted. I didn't mean to insult someone, only to proove a point that in all things done by humans, there is a law of diminishing returns».

As for the whole RL thing, most of us think the RL isn't a great value compared to a TL so of course it'll be worse compared to a the Buick Lacrosse. For me, it's a no brainer...why people make all that fuss about something so basic is beyond my mortal comprehension. This is like when I choose to dine at a fine restaurant. I could have cooked a great meal at home for 5$ supplying all kinds of high quality foods to my body but I chose to go with the luxury of going out and buy a great dinner with other, different, high quality foods. My home-made food is more of a value but the nice dinner in the fine restaurant is more luxurious.

As for the Lacrosse-7 series comparo. I don't think they can be compared since they are so far apart. Yet, if we talk about value, the the Lacrosse wins hands down. Buying something of lesser value isn't negatyive in itself. It just means you decided to invest your money into something that might not be best use of your money from an objective point of view (think in terms of ROI and Cost of opportunity, not in term of quality of both cars, which is more of a subjective concept). However, I'm not implying buying a 7 series instead of a Lacrosse is a bad decision, it just means you decided to put 6 times more $$$ on a car than most North Americans do. Frankly, I don't see the problem with that.

[/quote]I think the big thing is maybe how Asian car purchasers vs German purchasers consider what luxury is. As you can see by some posts here people are just happy if their trunk on a car just opens and closes. Where others appreciate the simple engineering and luxury in a reticulated trunk hinge that helps increase cargo capacity and the potential of damaging property inside when closing the trunk. This is just one many MANY features the German brands provide ie: auto sensing wipers, one touch signals, Auto up/dn on ALL windows, better seating controls etc etc etc.[/quote]

FWIW, I agree with you but I think it's more a question of perspective. Of course someone going from an A8 to a TL will see the luxury drops. I see nothing out of the ordinary here.

[/quote]In 2006 i was shocked when I went into Acura to look at a TSX and they said this was comparable to A4 or 3 series. The TSX was still using a prop rod for the hood, manual door locks, no headlight washers, no auto windows, no psg seat back element (because honda couldnt figure out how to design it with the airbag sensor) etc etc. Mind you all of these features and many more could be found on the competition and even a lowly non-luxury VW Jetta had all of those features.[/quote] Your dealer or sale guy was an idiot and should be whipped into submission to imply such idiocities. There is a significant gap between a 3 series and a TSX.

[/quote]IMO i think most asian car purchases believe luxury is comparable to any other brands as long as you have power windows, locks, air, leather and Navi etc. The reality is though that you can basically get all those features on any car these days but the extras and quality of materials is what makes a car a luxury vehicle or not. Unfortunately these extra features and quality come at a cost and most asian car consumers just dont appreciate it or value it. This though is another reason why Acura's are generally cheaper than the competition and I think its good marketing on Acura's part.......Provide the basic features to make people believe its a luxury car comparable to higher brands but leave out all the little luxury features and quality that make those brands what they are out in order to keep the price down and give the perception that its comparable. We could then get into the whole dealership experience and its correlation with luxury but thats a whole other topic and Acura again doesnt compete well on this level either.[/quote]
Well, I agree with you. You nailed it pretty much over the head. A TL is comparable to 3 series but it's not the same. Who will win depends on the criterias used. Of course a fully loaded S4 or M3 is probably more luxurious than a TL, I sure hope so for the price difference!

As for the dealership experience, I can only say that I get world class service at my Acura dealership. Honestly, they clean & wash the car each time they work on it, even if it's only to change the oil or change tires. Employees know me by my first name, make sure I'm 100 % satisfied each time I go there, answer my questions, install my mods, etc. What else can I possibly ask for? I don't want them to shovel my driveway or cook me some muffins...lol

SSFTSX

that car must have more mileage. I just search market for 2006. 50K A6 has same price as 30K 2007 TL-S. and A6 dont have sport S line.


Its good that u came down from high horse. Taxes and credits and pmts are another matter. u can get lower interest by buying new than used one and save money on interests.


because there arent many TL-SH-AWD in used car lot. FWD TL is very easy get buy. and i gont think TL-SH-AWD will hold value any better. where u get A6 3.0T is losing 20% of its value in first year?


i am showing avg price difference.


so ur saying Acura in US making more money than Audi in US. Acura is heavily discounting model. Its TSX/MDX is i believe foreing import and those currencies have appreciatd just like Audi. and TL is discounted. so i dont see how it is making money. as Volume of German brands grow and they become more globalized. Production in China/India/Russia. they are getting more standard equipment. greater global R&D. Audi alone is spending $10b in next 3 years on R&D. and Audi R&D starts where VW R&D ends.


Why would i need a V8 model? when supercharged V6 has DI anad same performance with better fuel economic. V8 does not add to performance unless it is turbocharged.

graphicguy

Skimming through some of these points, gotta say, it's bordering on silliness. Lexus is the lux brand for Toyota. Audi is the lux brand for VW. Infiniti is the lux brand for Nissan. Acura is the lux brand for Honda.

While BMW and Mercedes don't have entry level products (unless you count the Mini for BMW and SMART for Mercedes), the above are more or less the pecking order.

Now, it's no secret that the TL is the "tarted up" Accord, just like the G is a tarted up Altima, just like the A4 is the tarted up Passat, all these brands show off their lux and performance goodies more with the upscale brands than they do their lower brethren.

The big differences are usually in the underpinnings and the drivetrain technology. The TL? 3.5/3.7L motors shared in some form with the Accord and TSX, and SH AWD. Audi goes a different direction using the 2.0T in their A4 (same one used in a bunch of VWs). Infiniti/Nissan uses the 3.5/3.7 in a lot of their cars....the G, the M, Altima, 370Z, Maxima, in different states of tune.

Audi and Acura have a lot invested into their R&D for FWD cars, as they do with their AWD cars. Same goes for Infiniti/Nissan.

Whether one manufacturer puts more emphasis in lux trappings like "celsious" temp readouts, or an ELS 5.1 surround sound system, for example, is a matter of where they put their priorities. Some use real wood in their interiors (Audi). Some use high quality aluminum (Infiniti G and TL).

Bottom like, I think some are splitting hairs here.

Honda/Acura are known for their build, reliability and quality robustness. Audi is known for their nice interiors (although I personally don't see them as having an advantage over the TL) but a little less reliability and perhaps have more in the way of maintenance expenses.

They're all the lux/sport brands of their respective companies.

Although, few lux makers want to admit it, the Hyudai Genesis does a very creditable job of mimicking a Lexus GS, for example. I've test driven the Genesis, the GS, Infiniti M, etc. While the TL crosses over into those categories, the Genesis hits them with a bulls-eye. To say that the Lexus, Infiniti, bigger Audis, etc are heads and shoulders better (or worse) is a futile exercise.

Depends on each individual's wants, but I'd choose a TL over an A4 (and certainly over a Benz C class, which underwhelmed me with their performance and quality of materials) on any day.

I'll also say that the Genesis gives up nothing to the likes of a 5 Series, a GS, or an A6 if we're talking about strictly RWD cars. They drive every bit as nice, have as much, or more quality and high end materials (sometimes better) as any of those others.

Hyundai is riding the crest of being made in Korea less expensively than the German makes. I believe the only reason the German makes cost so much more, is not because they're better, but because labor costs are so high in Germany. Acura is kind of in the same boat, as the TL is made here in the U.S. Thus, they have a price advantage over the German marks, too.

Now, if you want to do a side-by-side of features or materials, that's all well and good. You'll have to throw out the BMWs though, as I consider their interiors and features to be stark in comparison (unless you write out a much bigger check).

winstrolvtec

^Good post. People want to make more of a German brand than it really is. It excels in areas that Acuras dont and Acuras accel in areas they dont. It is all about preference and personal priorities not that one doesn't belong or one is a much better "overall" car or purchase. They are all classified as luxury vehicles. The TL specifcally is a mid level mid sized luxury sedan, so it really does fit into the same category but there is a scale of how these cars fit in just like anything else.

If the TL is not the best in terms of luxury appointments and refinement, it's to keep cost down as it is much cheaper when equally equipped but it also is tops in reliability, resale, crash test recognition and value so why some insist that it doesn't belong just because it takes a different approach is beyond me.

They might argue that these brands are not that far behind in those areas but the Acura or the TL is not that far behind in the total luxury theme either. Just because the TL may not be the best in that regard does not mean it isn't good an a broad scale of luxury that does actually exist. Likewise these brands may not be the best in areas that the Acura is known for but they are not bad in those areas either. It's the same thing, they are just different types of vehicles in the same class with different approaches to that market as consumer needs and preferences can and do vary within the same segment and category of luxury vehicle.

SSFTSX

u need a little bit reality check. on A4 relation to Passat.

A4 has much longer wheel base than Passat. while TL & Accord is about same.
boot size of A4 is 17 while Passat is 14. TL & Accord same.

A4 has multilink front suspension while Passat is strut. TL & Accord is same.

A4 2.0T has not only more torque (50 ft-lb) but peak power is developed at 1000prm lower than Passat 2.0T. Audi has lower compression ratio for longer life

While TL has more bhp than Accord but its torque same and using premium fuel. there is no low rpm advantage in power and torque for Non-VCM model.

A4 has much sleeker aerodnamic profile than Passat. while TL may be worse or equal to Accord. there is no NVH dba advantage of TL over Accord.

A4 crash safety rating of 5. while Passat is 4.

Accord & TL has same safety ratings of 5.

Audi gives u options like LED/Drive select/blind spot montioring/S Line that simply not aviable in 4 Motion CC/Passat. not to mention more driving oreinted cockpit design.





Accord & TL has same cockpit design but upgraded material.



Price difference between TL FWD Tech & Accord EX-L V6 is about $9K. while price difference between similar equiped Passat & A4 is about $6K. (if there is such similarity to begin with).