Denied on oil consumption
01-25-2022, 02:02 PM
#41
I don't know if there's an easy way to sleeve this block. It would be up to the engine builder to provide a good solution at that point. It wouldn't be a Honda engine anymore lol.
If you want iron sleeves and 3.7L's, use a J35 block and increase its displacement. That's way easier and cheaper and more reliable than a shop built custom engine.
Or just use a stock J35 engine and deal with the narrower/smaller torque/HP band.
You could then mod the J35 to make up the delta.
My preference would be to...just add oil to your J37. I've had a few Honda's in the past that consumed oil. I hate wasting things...but adding a quart every 1K or 2K or 5K miles was just easy. Try the few things I've recommended, in order to curb the consumption.
Maybe use a 0W40 or 5W40 or 5W30 to see if that helps.
If you decide to persue a manufacturer funded solution...here is some info
Lots of manufacturers will state that a quart every 1K miles is within allowance. Toyota, Honda, BMW, to name a few.
This is because, again...modern engines tend to consume oil slightly. The problem is made worse if you're operating it like you would a less modern engine. If you're a warmer-upper, idler, short tripper...then...expect to burn up to 1qt per 1K miles.
After 8 years, the "warranty" is up.
Be reasonable. You/someone had 8 years to make a claim against a design defect.
After 8 years, how can you be sure that your engine is burning oil due to a manufacturer/design defect? Plenty of engines (not just the J37) will burn oil after 8 years of use for VARIOUS reasons. None of which are covered by an design defect warranty.
Last edited by BROlando; 01-25-2022 at 02:14 PM.
01-25-2022, 02:05 PM
#42
Burning Brakes
[QUOTE=altair47;16791044]
Dead serious. Ecu signal to oil jets ? LOL.
No my comrade, it is pressure activated ball valve. Bolt goes through the oil squirter to the oil galley and inside that bolt there is a check valve. Squirters are not active during idle.
Well, you cannot compare BMW oil consumption problem to Honda. Main reason older BMW 8 cylinder engines burning oil is valve seals. And, yes it will consume oil at idle, it even will consume oil when you will shut down the engine. Because some amount of oil will leak in to cylinders when the engine is off. Thats why there is a blue smoke when you start engine.
But you can't compare that to Honda engine. These are two different problems. There is mush less lubrication on cylinders at idle, even clogged rings can handle it (to a degree). Also oil jets are not active at idle and they contribute a lot to the oil consumption when the rings are clogged.[/QUOE]
Oil jets are not active at idle? Are you seriously? ECU send a signal to the oil jets that it is idling and they turn off?
But you can't compare that to Honda engine. These are two different problems. There is mush less lubrication on cylinders at idle, even clogged rings can handle it (to a degree). Also oil jets are not active at idle and they contribute a lot to the oil consumption when the rings are clogged.[/QUOE]
Oil jets are not active at idle? Are you seriously? ECU send a signal to the oil jets that it is idling and they turn off?
No my comrade, it is pressure activated ball valve. Bolt goes through the oil squirter to the oil galley and inside that bolt there is a check valve. Squirters are not active during idle.
01-25-2022, 02:10 PM
#43
[QUOTE=dzionny_dzionassi;16791174]
You're correct that they have check valves. It shuts them off for any low PSI conditon. Not just idle.
But yes, typically, oil pressure at idle is too low for the threshold.
You're correct that they have check valves. It shuts them off for any low PSI conditon. Not just idle.
But yes, typically, oil pressure at idle is too low for the threshold.
01-25-2022, 02:30 PM
#44
Burning Brakes
It has nothing to do with oil consumption. It never did. It is like echo chamber everybody reposting same, false information.
Actually some Honda v6 and even I-4 of the same engine era were burning engine oil. All off hem due low tension piston rings. Just did 09 k24 Accord, same issue with oil rings, and it is iron sleeve block.
Same issues with I-4 Toyota engines of that era.
How do I know that? Because I fixed few of them.
01-25-2022, 02:36 PM
#45
^we covered that.
Its notable that the J35 isn't prone to consumption. It likely has low tension rings too, but an iron liner.
I think SiAl blocks just add another layer of complexity to an already complex problem (getting efficiency out of an ICE engine).
Lots of other manufacturers have noted HIGHER consumption with eutectic blocks vs a similar iron lined block.
Linerless blocks may not be *the* only cause of oil consumption. But it sure seems they burn more oil than their iron lined counterparts.
The J37 is made from a eutectic (Silicon Aluminum) alloy.
Its relatively new tech. So its not as rock solid as using iron liners.
*Most* engines of this type of construction do have some form of ring clogging or issue that causes oil to start burning.
The alloy has a "texture" from the silicon. This texture is meant to create pockets for an oil film to reside as the piston moves past it.
Since its new tech, it seems they didn't nail the piston ring design.
Seems nobody really has. Most silicon aluminum engines start burning oil faster than their iron lined counterparts (apples to apples)....regardless of manufacturer.
Modern engines have a huge push toward efficiency. So the piston/wall clearances are "loose" to reduce friction. Other friction reduction measures are also in place for a LOT of modern engines.
There are plenty of iron and FRM lined Honda engines that also start to burn oil at a relatively young age. Most of them have 1 thing in common. Friction reduction to aid efficiency and power - this is huge at Honda. Its a tough target to hit while also retaining oil.
These type of engines are going to be more prone to issues as a result of bad driving habits.
If the piston rings have a "loose" design, they will be easier to clog up.
Once they clog up, the effect will be worse than other designs.
I forgot to mention in the above, but fuel dilution also plays a part in thinning the already thin oil out and causing more burnoff.
Fuel gets past loose rings easier.
This all comes with growing pains and adjustments.
Its not the first time and it won't be the last time that you'll see problems at the cusp of a design change.
Imagine how much people were complaining when we went from carburetors to fuel injection.
Or when we went from living in caves to building straw huts.
Its notable that the J35 isn't prone to consumption. It likely has low tension rings too, but an iron liner.
I think SiAl blocks just add another layer of complexity to an already complex problem (getting efficiency out of an ICE engine).
Lots of other manufacturers have noted HIGHER consumption with eutectic blocks vs a similar iron lined block.
Linerless blocks may not be *the* only cause of oil consumption. But it sure seems they burn more oil than their iron lined counterparts.
The J37 is made from a eutectic (Silicon Aluminum) alloy.
Its relatively new tech. So its not as rock solid as using iron liners.
*Most* engines of this type of construction do have some form of ring clogging or issue that causes oil to start burning.
The alloy has a "texture" from the silicon. This texture is meant to create pockets for an oil film to reside as the piston moves past it.
Since its new tech, it seems they didn't nail the piston ring design.
Seems nobody really has. Most silicon aluminum engines start burning oil faster than their iron lined counterparts (apples to apples)....regardless of manufacturer.
Modern engines have a huge push toward efficiency. So the piston/wall clearances are "loose" to reduce friction. Other friction reduction measures are also in place for a LOT of modern engines.
There are plenty of iron and FRM lined Honda engines that also start to burn oil at a relatively young age. Most of them have 1 thing in common. Friction reduction to aid efficiency and power - this is huge at Honda. Its a tough target to hit while also retaining oil.
These type of engines are going to be more prone to issues as a result of bad driving habits.
If the piston rings have a "loose" design, they will be easier to clog up.
Once they clog up, the effect will be worse than other designs.
Fuel gets past loose rings easier.
Another reason not to idle or short trip
Engine designs have changed.This all comes with growing pains and adjustments.
Its not the first time and it won't be the last time that you'll see problems at the cusp of a design change.
Imagine how much people were complaining when we went from carburetors to fuel injection.
Or when we went from living in caves to building straw huts.
Last edited by BROlando; 01-25-2022 at 02:46 PM.
01-25-2022, 03:13 PM
#46
Burning Brakes
^we covered that.
Its notable that the J35 isn't prone to consumption. It likely has low tension rings too, but an iron liner.
I think SiAl blocks just add another layer of complexity to an already complex problem (getting efficiency out of an ICE engine).
Lots of other manufacturers have noted HIGHER consumption with eutectic blocks vs a similar iron lined block.
Engine designs have changed.
This all comes with growing pains and adjustments.
Its not the first time and it won't be the last time that you'll see problems at the cusp of a design change.
Imagine how much people were complaining when we went from carburetors to fuel injection.
Or when we went from living in caves to building straw huts.
Its notable that the J35 isn't prone to consumption. It likely has low tension rings too, but an iron liner.
I think SiAl blocks just add another layer of complexity to an already complex problem (getting efficiency out of an ICE engine).
Lots of other manufacturers have noted HIGHER consumption with eutectic blocks vs a similar iron lined block.
Engine designs have changed.
This all comes with growing pains and adjustments.
Its not the first time and it won't be the last time that you'll see problems at the cusp of a design change.
Imagine how much people were complaining when we went from carburetors to fuel injection.
Or when we went from living in caves to building straw huts.
You are misinformed. J35 do burn oil, since you probably never worked on them, just getting information from internet.
08-12 v6 accords, 09-13 odyssey officially but up to 16 are doing it, 09-13 pilot, low tension rings and vcm is the main cause of oil consumption. Some j35 engines have oil jets only on 3 cylinders, the ones that are not equipped with oil squirts can develop critical scratches on cylinder bores. Which can contribute to oil consumption too.
Again, I cant stress enough. Please stop misinformation about J37 block and oil consumption. It all lies in piston design and piston rings. There is no connection whatsoever between j37 block and oil consumption.
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Kingcredible (01-25-2022)
01-25-2022, 03:22 PM
#47
You are misinformed. J35 do burn oil, since you probably never worked on them, just getting information from internet.
08-12 v6 accords, 09-13 odyssey officially but up to 16 are doing it, 09-13 pilot, low tension rings and vcm is the main cause of oil consumption. Some j35 engines have oil jets only on 3 cylinders, the ones that are not equipped with oil squirts can develop critical scratches on cylinder bores. Which can contribute to oil consumption too.
Again, I cant stress enough. Please stop misinformation about J37 block and oil consumption. It all lies in piston design and piston rings. There is no connection whatsoever between j37 block and oil consumption.
08-12 v6 accords, 09-13 odyssey officially but up to 16 are doing it, 09-13 pilot, low tension rings and vcm is the main cause of oil consumption. Some j35 engines have oil jets only on 3 cylinders, the ones that are not equipped with oil squirts can develop critical scratches on cylinder bores. Which can contribute to oil consumption too.
Again, I cant stress enough. Please stop misinformation about J37 block and oil consumption. It all lies in piston design and piston rings. There is no connection whatsoever between j37 block and oil consumption.
You're talking about J35 VCM engines.
I'm not.
Apples to apples, eutectic liners are linked to increased oil consumption, I said.
The VCM is an additional variable. Apples to cabbages.
The J35 in the TL do not have a common oil consumption issue.
Is there a VCM J37? It likely would be worse off in terms of oil consumption than a VCM J35.
Port injected J series engines without VCM.
Oil consumption.
Which is the known worst offender in your years of working on them?
In your opinion, why didn't honda use VCM on the J37? That engine could use "help" with fuel economy more than the J35. So...why did they choose not to do it on the J37? What makes the J37 different?
Last edited by BROlando; 01-25-2022 at 03:35 PM.
01-25-2022, 03:31 PM
#48
Null and proud of it
Do you know that aluminum sleeves is another myth created by members on this forum and some other ones too.
It has nothing to do with oil consumption. It never did. It is like echo chamber everybody reposting same, false information.
Actually some Honda v6 and even I-4 of the same engine era were burning engine oil. All off hem due low tension piston rings. Just did 09 k24 Accord, same issue with oil rings, and it is iron sleeve block.
Same issues with I-4 Toyota engines of that era.
How do I know that? Because I fixed few of them.
It has nothing to do with oil consumption. It never did. It is like echo chamber everybody reposting same, false information.
Actually some Honda v6 and even I-4 of the same engine era were burning engine oil. All off hem due low tension piston rings. Just did 09 k24 Accord, same issue with oil rings, and it is iron sleeve block.
Same issues with I-4 Toyota engines of that era.
How do I know that? Because I fixed few of them.
Your theory does seem more accurate about the rings. At least where my mind goes. I'm not super knowledgeable on engines so pardon my error in judgement and I think it's cool that you actually repaired some of these engines.
01-25-2022, 03:39 PM
#49
I know the I4 both Honda K series and Toyota 2AZ engines did have chronic oil burn issues as well as the J35 with VCM.
Your theory does seem more accurate about the rings. At least where my mind goes. I'm not super knowledgeable on engines so pardon my error in judgement and I think it's cool that you actually repaired some of these engines.
Your theory does seem more accurate about the rings. At least where my mind goes. I'm not super knowledgeable on engines so pardon my error in judgement and I think it's cool that you actually repaired some of these engines.
Secondarily, so do 10000 other factors that make up a modern engine.
If you add silicon aluminum into that equation, it only gets worse.
01-25-2022, 03:54 PM
#50
Burning Brakes
??
You're talking about J35 VCM engines.
I'm not.
Apples to apples, eutectic liners are linked to increased oil consumption, I said.
The VCM is an additional variable. Apples to cabbages.
The J35 in the TL do not have a common oil consumption issue.
Is there a VCM J37? It likely would be worse off in terms of oil consumption than a VCM J35.
Port injected J series engines without VCM.
Oil consumption.
Which is the known worst offender in your years of working on them?
In your opinion, why didn't honda use VCM on the J37? That engine could use "help" with fuel economy more than the J35. So...why did they choose not to do it on the J37? What makes the J37 different?
You're talking about J35 VCM engines.
I'm not.
Apples to apples, eutectic liners are linked to increased oil consumption, I said.
The VCM is an additional variable. Apples to cabbages.
The J35 in the TL do not have a common oil consumption issue.
Is there a VCM J37? It likely would be worse off in terms of oil consumption than a VCM J35.
Port injected J series engines without VCM.
Oil consumption.
Which is the known worst offender in your years of working on them?
In your opinion, why didn't honda use VCM on the J37? That engine could use "help" with fuel economy more than the J35. So...why did they choose not to do it on the J37? What makes the J37 different?
K24 probably worst offender and it does not have vcm....
01-25-2022, 04:01 PM
#51
you stated that j35 isn't prone to consumption, this is simply not true. Again vcm has nothing to do with excessive oil consumption it is just a icing on the cake. It is all in piston design. J37 with old style pistons dont burn any oil...
K24 probably worst offender and it does not have vcm....
K24 probably worst offender and it does not have vcm....
You listed JUST J35's with VCM as being oil burners. But VCM obviously has no impact on oil burning (??) but its the icing on the cake (???)
That's all well contradictory....
Then you answer my J series question with a K series answer.
Anyway, you're the captain of this thread now. Make sure only true info goes out.
01-25-2022, 04:27 PM
#52
You are misinformed. J35 do burn oil, since you probably never worked on them, just getting information from internet.
08-12 v6 accords, 09-13 odyssey officially but up to 16 are doing it, 09-13 pilot, low tension rings and vcm is the main cause of oil consumption. Some j35 engines have oil jets only on 3 cylinders, the ones that are not equipped with oil squirts can develop critical scratches on cylinder bores....There is no connection whatsoever between j37 block and oil consumption.
08-12 v6 accords, 09-13 odyssey officially but up to 16 are doing it, 09-13 pilot, low tension rings and vcm is the main cause of oil consumption. Some j35 engines have oil jets only on 3 cylinders, the ones that are not equipped with oil squirts can develop critical scratches on cylinder bores....There is no connection whatsoever between j37 block and oil consumption.
01-25-2022, 05:10 PM
#53
Bingo! It's amazing the perspective you have when you actually work on these things. I've done a few rebuilds for friends and family and north of 100 timing belts on J series and the issue couldn't be more clear. The problem is that misinformation and theoretic interpretation is rampant and unbridled online. I am a thermal systems engineer for a 2nd tier auto supplier and see this all the time at work. All sorts of conjectures and postulations get thrown about when finding a root cause that the simple solution often gets overlooked. We're trained out of college to solve problems with differential calculus only to find out that in the real world, "hitting it with a bigger hammer" is often the best solution. But then again, I'm just a stranger online, rolling in the filth with all the posturers and master techs. Surprised the bro above didn't go into the intricacies of partial differentials and solving the Gibbs free energy equation
You didn't even read what I wrote. You don't know what you're even disagreeing with.
01-26-2022, 02:35 PM
#55
Burning Brakes
01-26-2022, 07:18 PM
#56
01-26-2022, 08:05 PM
#57
Burning Brakes
What do you mean can't hurt? Joking?
Higher engine rpm-more heat, it will raise oil temperature. Higher engine temperature and higher rpm will lead to worse compression rings seal. Bad seal-combustion gases passes through compression rings and starts cooking oil on oil rings (clogs oil control rings). Oil enters in to combustion chamber and forms carbon on pistons, exhaust valves and head. And since pistons equipped with low tension rings it kills oil fast(blowby gases). That's why engine oil on j37 gets black pretty quick- excessive exhaust gases blowby.
So yes, it will hurt.
Higher engine rpm-more heat, it will raise oil temperature. Higher engine temperature and higher rpm will lead to worse compression rings seal. Bad seal-combustion gases passes through compression rings and starts cooking oil on oil rings (clogs oil control rings). Oil enters in to combustion chamber and forms carbon on pistons, exhaust valves and head. And since pistons equipped with low tension rings it kills oil fast(blowby gases). That's why engine oil on j37 gets black pretty quick- excessive exhaust gases blowby.
So yes, it will hurt.
01-27-2022, 08:14 AM
#58
What do you mean can't hurt? Joking?
Higher engine rpm-more heat, it will raise oil temperature. Higher engine temperature and higher rpm will lead to worse compression rings seal. Bad seal-combustion gases passes through compression rings and starts cooking oil on oil rings (clogs oil control rings). Oil enters in to combustion chamber and forms carbon on pistons, exhaust valves and head. And since pistons equipped with low tension rings it kills oil fast(blowby gases). That's why engine oil on j37 gets black pretty quick- excessive exhaust gases blowby.
So yes, it will hurt.
Higher engine rpm-more heat, it will raise oil temperature. Higher engine temperature and higher rpm will lead to worse compression rings seal. Bad seal-combustion gases passes through compression rings and starts cooking oil on oil rings (clogs oil control rings). Oil enters in to combustion chamber and forms carbon on pistons, exhaust valves and head. And since pistons equipped with low tension rings it kills oil fast(blowby gases). That's why engine oil on j37 gets black pretty quick- excessive exhaust gases blowby.
So yes, it will hurt.
TLDR.
Incorrect.
Next question.
01-27-2022, 09:07 AM
#59
Burning Brakes
01-27-2022, 09:08 AM
#60
If you could, though, please explain why carbon would BUILD UP as a result of high temps and high RPM?
The only thing I am feeling is amazement in how you think stuff works.
Last edited by BROlando; 01-27-2022 at 09:13 AM.
01-27-2022, 01:45 PM
#61
01-27-2022, 02:13 PM
#62
Constant high RPM/high load use can obviously damage an engine in many ways.
However, no, you're not going to see any tangible wear from flooring it in your car every now and then (or even more often than now and then) and keeping it within the factory rev limiter. It doesn't cook the oil or clog the rings to do that. That's ridiculous.
Any engine will see more blowby at higher cylinder pressure. Idk what is being proven by that statement. That's like saying "wind blows".
Maybe the tactic, as indicated, is to appear smart by saying any random thing and then just going silent or deflecting it away when its questioned. That tactic has been used since the dinosaurs invented it back in 1932.
Last edited by BROlando; 01-27-2022 at 02:18 PM.
01-27-2022, 02:25 PM
#63
Burning Brakes
You response was to my post "TLDR".
Read it my friend, maybe you will learn something new and become better person
01-27-2022, 02:33 PM
#64
But...sure...lets read the post.
APPEAR smarter. The illusion of knowing what you're talking about is easy.
01-27-2022, 02:42 PM
#65
Burning Brakes
If you want to do some piston top cleaning BG 44k platinum works great. If you dont want to use BG, you can get Red Line Complete SI-1 Fuel System Cleaner. but when I did test couple years ago BG was more potent stuff Redline came second.
Here is a pic of J37 piston after tank of gas and BG mix:
01-27-2022, 02:42 PM
#66
BTW, different approaches aside, that wasn't meant to be a dig at your dad.
But...I don't know if you're qualified to recommend that someone else read before posting a reply. You've not been able to do that yourself.
"Things that I claim are facts do not care about facts being feelings, because sometimes I just say stuff", as you said above.
But...I don't know if you're qualified to recommend that someone else read before posting a reply. You've not been able to do that yourself.
"Things that I claim are facts do not care about facts being feelings, because sometimes I just say stuff", as you said above.
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