Why do you dodge the invitation to drive an SH-AWD to see for yourself as well as test drive it to be able to give an honest assessment of the car instead of quoting others opinions based on research that may or may not be biased?

That has been my only real complaint about your opinions about the 4G, looks aside.

 

They must have run a cut off, custom version of the Streets specifically to suited the Acura package.

At the normal streets of willow 1.8 mile track 1:30 is a good time for cars like Z06, CTV or E-63 AMG & very fast times by Nissan GT-R, Ferrari 458 Italia, Corvette ZR1 are in the 1:20 range. I really doubt any of the 4 cars tested for are 20 to 30 seconds faster per lap then these cars.

 

The only real advantage of the G "on the street every day" compared to the TL SH-AWD is straight line acceleration numbers if you take both cars in automatic form (the G weight less and has one extra gear).
Another subjective advantage for some users can be the G agility (it is a smaller car) and the "fun factor" of letting your tail let go a bit driving fast around the twisties (part of the huge appeal for the RWD crowd).

Again, style is entirely subjective so to each its own....and do not get me wrong, I think the G is a fantastic beautiful sport sedan....I would take one over a 3 Series any time of the day.

Road feel which you seem to dismiss a little bit is a huge part of the "package" for a sport sedan buyer......for example many people like the agility (also because of its light weight and small size) and willingness to play of a little 328 over a G37 and they are willing to give up on acceleration numbers, back seat room, plushier interiors and/or options...comparing cars only on acceleration numbers is extremely restrictive.

I use my TL as my daily driver and I can still often enjoy the incredible neutrality and grip ability of my car as soon as the road clears up and curves show up....

As a final suggestion to you is to test drive (again, real test drive) any car (Acura or not) you may consider on your budget, do not rely on first impact on the look of the car......you may fall in love once behind the wheel....the "road feel factor" indeed....

 

I totally agree with you theory......in economic bad times people tend to be more conservative and less willing to "experiment" and try something new.

However. the TL is still the third best selling midsize luxury sedan according to sales number so.....

The polarizing style was a huge plus for me (of course because I'm on the side of these that think it is extremely innovative and gorgeaous), it is unbeliavable the number of compliments that to this day my 2010 TL is able to get on the street...gas station, parking lots...never happened to me with my previous "mainstream accepted" cars....

The car stands out significantly in every place I park it...

 

I've owned all manner of cars, front and rear drive sedans, front and rear drive coupes and a two-seater RWD. Not a one of them could hold a candle to the handling prowess and road feel of the AWD TL. Again, as I said, if you really doubt SH-AWD's capabilities, then you simply haven't driven one.

 

I took a U-Turn way too fast this morning commuting into work. The Torque vectoring AWD with SH was incredible...scary moment but amazing results!

 

A few+ years ago I was doing 50 in a 50 down a wooded road when a deer ran in front of the car. I was able to do an evasive maneuver in my 330i to the left lane which was empty, with the stability and tc doing exactly what they needed to do and "only clipped" the deers hind quarters instead of a full front on collision.

I was thankful the deer and I were alive and the car "only" suffered $2500 in damages. It was an epiphany for me of why I wanted a well balanced vehicle.

 

The way you are telling this episode, I suspect that RWD or FWD has nothing to do with the happy ending....you ability and reflexes and a well designed cars (regardless of where it send the power).

I felt much more "safe" going fast around our western WA twisty and wet back roads with my Maxima SE manual than any 3 or 5 Series, with quite few of them fishtailing behind trying to keep up.....and the Maxima had no stability or traction control......well actually it had a real limited slip diff....if I was trying to anticipate coming out of the same curve with my co-worker 530i the way I did with my Maxima, the rear end was ending up sidewise or excessive wheelspin on the internal rear wheel before the TC was shutting off power abruptly and unpleasantly....

 

Right, but if I was in my prior Maxima and tried a the same manuever I would have wound up in a ditch as the car most likely could not handle an instant swerve in the left lane going at 50, collision, instant swerve in the right lane.

A RWD car as you are telling the story needs a lsd like the M3 or M5 and the results would have been dramatically different. Brakes are a poor substitute for lsd.

 

Why you think a Maxima could not handle that?? What version you had?? Mine was a 2002 and it handled like a dream....my only gripe with that car was that the rear suspension was a bit stiff and bouncy on uneven pavement.

Directionaly stability when braking is actually higher, in principle, on a FWD compared to a RWD....

 

The drivetrain layout makes zero difference in an emergency avoidance maneuver, in fact front heaviness and the resultant stability is extremely valuable in that situation. This statement is doubly relevant in any modern car with electronic stability control.

Actually, the FM platform's 53% front bias is for increased skid control.

The TL's quick ratio steering and rapid direction change from SH-AWD induced yaw moment just compound it's already enormous advantages in avoidance maneuvers, especially in combination with it's extremely sophisticated stability control tuning.

 

For a quick swerve it's just a matter of not having too much understeer and GOOD grippy tires to maintain traction throughout the maneuver.

In other words, for something like what you described, the wheels being driven doesn't matter. Tire grip, tight engine mounts and a firm suspension would be paramount.

 

Right, the balance of the car makes all the difference, of course good tires help. But flinging a car does not overcome physics no matter what the drivetrain. A nose heavy car will not be able to be as tossable as a balanced car.

CRs car analysis used to include the maximum emergency avoidance speed, I don't know if they still do, but I remember my 330 was in the 50s (maybe).

 

I had the previous generation, and while it was great in a straight line, it was not a 4dsc by any means. It was a somewhat sporty fwd sedan. And I agree with the remark about the suspension.

 

I though front bias on braking created understeer. The car not turning to where you want it to go.

 

Understeer is super duper desirable in emergency avoidance maneuvers because almost all of them are actually two rapid turns in quick succession, the first turn to avoid hitting the obstacle, the 2nd turn to turn back onto the path of the road (because going off the road is also full of obstacles).

This rapid back and forth directional change will send oversteery and even mildly understeering cars spinning pretty readily. Spinning is bad. Understeer is good (in this case).

 

A nose heavy car increase grip during braking improving directional ability....

Some of the best WRC rally cars where handling is of the utmost importance are FWD right behind the top AWD models...no manufacturer team use RWD cars anymore...what you are saying about"tossability" is not true...a lot depends on steering and suspension design geometry and tuning......the best modern FWD cars can have a weight distribution where the front end can goes well below 60%....the problem is that the FWD layout is also used for small economic cars as well where dynamic behavior takes a backseat thus giving the architecture a general bad reputation....people need to do their homework and actually learn about car design beyond grand generalizations......

The Alfa Romeos 155 and 156 (FWD) won several European motorsport championships (Touring Car) in front of the BMW 3 Series in the 90's



So you had the 4th Gen?? (1995-1999)

While I could not find specific test data that far back in time, I found this promotional video of the 1995 Maxima where Nissan claim that Maxima, tested by independent automotive consulting firms, turned out to be quicker on a slalom course (to test evasive and recovery action) than a BMW 540i....check it out, especially beginning at the 3:00 mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5a9C451ZlnA

Remember, as with the TL, each iteration of the Maxima has always been significantly bigger and heavier than the 3 Series of the time, so not as agile, and there is nothing you can do about it (FWD or RWD)....simple physics, the car is bigger.....size wise has always been more of a competitor to the 5 Series than the 3 Series.....

My Maxima was probably the best FWD sport sedan of its time with the 3rd gen Acura TL...I have extremely fond memories of her....

 

to everything saturno just posted, I have to respond : not really.

all those FWD production class victories are largely thanks to class rules favoring FWD, usually in the form of penalizing power or weight of the RWD and especially the AWD cars.

While the performance advantages and disadvantages of various drivetrain layouts are overblown in most discussion, there's no need to argue against the badness of FWD by trying to assert it's superiority.

the 3G TL was faster on track than many of it's RWD competitors, but this was in spite of FWD not because of it. The virtues of FWD are in packaging and economy, and the disadvantages are clearly something that can be worked around, especially in lower powered applications.

What counts as "low powered" is constantly rising with the refinement of FWD.

 

Danny


There were not different regulations in European motorsport Touring Car competition that did favor FWD cars...only limitations were size, engine displacement with no superchargers.....the Alfa competed with their 2 liters 4 door Alfa 155 (and later on 156) as BMW did race with their 320's....and Alfa often did come on top...as simple as that...

I never said that the FWD is superior for balance, the RWD mantain that theoretical advantage of course....what most people do not realize that is not as bad as it cracked to be...as I said, modern FWD can nowadays go below 60% in front weight distribution.

And no, the FWD architecture was never born because of cost....this is one of the most common and erroneous misconceptions out there...actually initially many early front drivers (Citroen, Lancia, etc...) were actually pricier than many traditional RWD competitors in the same class....the reason for the advent of front wheel drive cars was the easier more "natural" driving especially on slippery road conditions (and the all-wather capabilities were well advertised on these early FWD cars)....development costs for a FWD are not any cheaper than a RWD in the same class....the only economical advantage is the packaging but it is just a consequence of the design layout not the main reason for its success and early adoption....

Let's also say that the newfound success of RWD in the recent decades is due to the electronic traction and stability controls which can tame that layout unease in treacherous road conditions....how many Bimmer or Infiniti drivers go around with their electronic aid system switched off?? As an enthusiast 135i driver told me....it's downright scary....

RWD cars (BMW included) are purposedly made a bit understeer happy (including the adoption of unusually large tires) to counterbalance the natural fishtailing tendency of the scheme getting out of the curve....RWD is not perfect either...

FWD's ease in slippery road conditions are one of the main reason for success in WRC......and agility of a FWD increase significantly as the size (specifically wheelbase) of the car decrease......you will never see a 1 Series seriously competing on a rally......electronic traction and stability aid are banned from WRC....that car would constantly go sidewise on some of the routes where these guys race......I would take a Focus RS anytime over a 1 Series in these conditions....

 

I expect then all the top competition classes & prototype cars are going to go to FWD because its so much better for braking & stability. I really have to get a deposit down on the next FWD supercar.

 

Cheap sarcasm aside....the FWD layout has serious upper limit on proper power handling ability....about 300 horses currently on a 5 Series sized car.....leave the supercars apart...

Up to 20 years ago 150-200 HP was thought to be basically the ultimate threshold for an average sized FWD car...look where we are now....

This Ford Focus RS500 is the most powerful (power-weight ratio) FWD currently in production (sold in Europe)...350 HP from its turbocharged 2.5 liters...and guess what...it handles extremely well...even Motortrend agrees....surprised???

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...e/viewall.html

It pulled 1.14 g on a famous handling track in Vairano (Italy)...no electronic controls, just a good old mechanical limited slip diff....it lapped faster than the BMW Z4 M (2006).... maybe stop reading brochures and car magazines and actually learning a little bit about automotive engineering and architecture may help....

 

^^^^^

No sarcasm intended, just the facts....as performance requirements get higher FWD goes away as a viable platform. You somehow neglected to make that point in your learned dissertation. When discussing the Ford 500 unit end of model run limited addition special the hot hatch guys who wrote into MT did not seem all that impressed suggesting that its both slow (5.6/0-62) for its power output & in need of AWD.

Be that as it may I have over 55K miles OJT in a mid level performance FWD sedan, ‘06 TL 6MT, as a DD. Its highly unlikely I will be getting another FWD car for a DD, therefore I am not sure what good your suggestion to study up on FWD might be to me.

Thing is I am just not curios enough about FWD to do more then ask a few questions of the experts here. My DD is RWD with a 50/50 balance setup & has well over the FWD Fords 345bhp, so OJT during track days & performance driving school are the things I am doing to improve my limited auto education.


“””””It pulled 1.14 g on a famous handling track in Vairano (Italy)...no electronic controls, just a good old mechanical limited slip diff....it lapped faster than the BMW Z4 M (2006)”””””

Did you read about this in a brochure or car magazines?

 

I did read that on a list of fastest laps on that track.....just pure numbers for what they are...

I don't know how can you interpret these passages from that article as "not all that impressed"

"And like a black hole, it seems to be able to bend the space-time continuum. The RS500's performance isn't quite at supercar levels, but there's something epic about the way this thing can attack tight, bendy ribbons of asphalt. The combination of pivoting-knuckle front suspension and limited slip differential, not to mention the brilliant tuning of springs, dampers, anti-sway bars, and tires, gives the car phenomenal traction"

"No matter. The overriding sensation is exhilaration from the combination of handling, turbo whoosh, wastegate flutter, and the thrum of the five-cylinder engine in such a state of high agitation."

"One of the things Ford does so well is match all control efforts. The steering is quick and accurate, keeping you keyed into the road".

Similar reviews in other magazines, especially European, (no, I do not only read magazines...) resulted in similar very positive comments...

Among the few car weak points they mention throttle control...incidentally it has nothing to do with powertrain layout...

Few magazines in chrono testing have been able to go below 5 sec in the 0-60 mark (4.9, 4.8).....

I agree that beyond that point that particular type of car (rally material) should definitely move into AWD....they did not say RWD.....

...learning about not dismissing that layout as a always necessarily vastly inferior scheme....I probably will never go back (never say never these days) to a FWD (or a RWD for that matter) daily car either.....that does not mean that I do not appreciate them in their strong points.

Obviously, that was never be in doubt.....we discussed about power handling threshold already...more than once...I never mentioned FWD supercars, Formula 1 or exotics....

Just out of curiosity....did you ever tried already to drive fast on a nice twisty track with a powerful RWD and the electronic controls off??

By the way, do not get me wrong....I like RWD too and I still own one and my first car was a RWD (I also owned BMWs).....I just recognize that it is not always the best layout for every type of condition....

 

As I said above it was the people who wrote in to comment about the article that were not impressed, the people Ford needs to buy the car not the magazine writers who are getting paid to play with it for a day or two.

When I raced SCCA B-C-E (Corvette, Morgan, Triumph) production there were no electronic controls so I think I can muddle through with the stability controls switched off. The BMW PDS down in Spartanburg also does a lot of the work with the stability controls on & off, wet & dry, so that you can compare & see their true value. That being said I think its a stupid thing to switch them off on the street. Most I shut down is traction control from a standing start so I can use the throttle to control slip.

BTW my FWD TL came with electronic stability controls, didn’t your super handling TL get some too?

 

They're required by law.

 

You can switch off the VSA (Vehicle Stability Assist) on the TL, however I never do it...

 

You can switch off the VSA (Vehicle Stability Assist) on the TL, however I never do it...I have to give it to Acura that is is not very intrusive at all...no abrupt intervention...

My Maxima SE 6 Speed did not come with any electronic aid (which I did love it), just a mechanical limited slip diff, ABS and EBD

The car is not marketed in the US and I don't think anyone on that comment list has ever drove one (47 comments)....granted I never drove one but from the magazine reviews and comments on European forums from people that claim that they actually did drive the car, I read mostly very positive reactions, you can even watch some nice video reviews on youtube.

I did drive some other very peppy small FWD cars like the Clio RS or the Mini Cooper and they are an absolute blast to drive....very impressive handling and precision...

 

If you're saying that an LSD would have helped in the deer-avoiding incident, I think you're a little off base.

An LSD helps in all configurations of drive when you're putting power down in a corner that will cause a weight transfer off of the normally driven wheel that is on the apex side of the turn.

The way that I am reading your description of avoiding the deer, I don't understand how you feel an LSD would have helped.

 

You'd be impressed, I think, with the stability controls on the 6-6 SH-AWD.

It'll actually let you drift, provided you're talking relatively low slip angles of a relatively equal amount on all four wheels.

It's amazing, really.

And unlike a lot of modern cars, when you hit the switch to turn off "VSA," it turns off multiple systems and they stay off until you turn off the vehicle.

 

That's not what I said, an LSD would help with fishtailing in a RWD car as to direct the torque to the non-slip wheel. In my case having a nimble balanced car, with good reflexes and a lot of driving experience helped me avoid the deer.

 

A balanced car??? Unless you are talking about a mid engine car.. ALL cars are going to be front heavy!

 

OK - You win

335is

Weight distribution, front/rear - Manual transmission

50.9/49.1 %


Weight distribution, front/rear - Automatic transmission

51.2/48.8 %

 

Power full down, yes it would help if you have the wheel turned at the same time.

An OEM LSD is not three-way, in the price league most of us are in. A G37's LSD, for example, isn't going to work in your lane change unless you've got your foot down. Neutral throttle or off throttle, it's not going to work.

If I've misunderstood your explanation and you had your foot down in your maneuver, I apologize.

The LSD on the nose of a 2008 TL 6-6 is mechanical and dumb. It's only going to work power down.

The LSD on the tail of a 2010 TL 6-6 is a clutch pack, not gear driven, and it is smart, but the computer assumes in most situations that if you're throttle light then you are probably not interested in getting through whatever you're doing in the fastest way possible, and the computer uses the other systems to keep you straight instead of speeding you up and turning you faster.

The funny thing is that the clutch pack + computer on the SH-AWD 6-6 is smart enough that if you are neutral throttle or pushing throttle, it will point you even to the extent that it allows a fairly mild, steady slip angle at all four corners. It's very nice how they've designed this.

Sorry. Went off on my own torque vectored tangent there. :-)

 

OMG, I made a mistake. All cars EXCEPT the 335is!!! Holy shit.. shoot me. And what aboutany other car in the class??

EDIT: For the 2012 TL, the 6-speed manual version improves weight distribution by 1-percent thus generating a 58/42 ratio versus the 6AT's 59/41 ratio.

 

In this 21st Century World ...
"Negative Advertising outnumbers Positive Advertising
at least 10 to 1" {Avertising Age Magazine}.
Its cheaper and very effective ... ask any Politican running for office.

 

^ NO kidding.. if the media says it, it must be true.

"Dirty little secrets, dirty little lies.
Their dirty little fingers in everybodys pie..
We love ot cut you down to size,
we love dirty laundry"

 

^^^ You really buy that crap?

 

Bottom of the line

128i
Weight distribution, front/rear – Manual Transmission
50.5/49.5 %
Weight distribution, front/rear – Automatic transmission (128i: STEPTRONIC transmission)
51.0/49.0%

Top of the line
760Li
Weight Distribution front/rear
52.4/47.6%

And all in-between

The only reason I posted the numbers is the comment that somebody, I think it was you, suggested I was wrong when I said driving my 50/50 balanced car was incorrect. I was acknowledging that you were right.

That being said quite a few RWD performance oriented cars have very good balance if not exactly 50/50 like the Camaro, Corvette, Miata etc. Mercedes is pretty much inside 52/48 across the line

 

Thread hijacked... lol !!