StonedCL

iTrader: (1)

NO offense taken, just when I was done reading through the posts I forgot what the original topic was.. Thats what 10 years of getting stoned does to a person.. All I was tring to say is I deal with alot of car shoppers and I see alot of 3rd gen TL's pull in to look at the G37x , and when I ask then about the new TL most do not like the styling.. It just seems like people that like the 3g TL do not like the 4G tl, and those are the customers acura should have focused on.

Pete2010

Not to take this further off topic...but I agree that Acura alienated some of the 3G group with this car... I look at it like if I was 25 and got a 3G and modded it and loved it, not I'm 30 and I need AWD for the snow, and want something bigger for kids... They basically made the car "grow up" for a more grown up audience.

Now back on topic. I think the best benefit of the AWD in the Acura is that in the dry it's a beast! The ability to push torque to independent wheels makes this corner like a dream. I think many people don't give it the chance to even test drive it. But that's fine with me, I didn't get a 335 or Infiniti because the streets around here are littered with them... they're just not unique enough, with some careful modding you can fix the flaws and still have a unique fast ride.

StonedCL

iTrader: (1)

With the ACURA's TL SH-AWD system how much power is front and back...
I nkow it can send power left to right in the back wheels but can 100% of the power be in the rear? I know the G37x is RWD based AWD system where most of the time its 100% RWD BUT can send up to 50% of the power to the front wheels..
I thought the TL'S AWD system was a FWD based AWD system so most of the power is put down to the front wheels.. Is this correct or can 100% power go to the back wheels?

winstrolvtec

Just to touch on the other subject, the TL simply had to go in a different direction. Acura is trying to reposition the models and move them up segment and this will take some time and make the models overlap, it also confuses the positioning and maybe even makes some models seem irrelevant but fortunately it advances the TSX and TL drastically whether someone cares for the style or not. The other thing is they needed a car to draw attention to the brand and further it's recognition and figured they could afford a few casualties with the TL, it's most popular model, in order to accomplish this. It serves a greater purpose.

The 4G is not the 3G and the closest thing Acura has to that now is the TSX V6 and I can honestly say that is far from a downgrade. While it may not be completely there yet, the 4G is trying to get a different type of consideration and broader consumer base, at least for those who appreciate the styling.

As Pete added, it's more grown up, as in a little more up segment and it would lose some consumer base just for that reason alone, it doesn't matter what it looks like. It still outsells the G37 sedan so I don't think that so many are crossing over specifically to that and when you gain more than the average amount of market share, as they did with the 3G model, it's normal that an above average percentage would also leave the brand. Brands and models that have a more consistent consumer base are usually also those you don't sell as much in the first place.

Back to the topic, SH-AWD on the TL can send up to 70% of it's power to the rear and 100% of that to either rear wheel. Under it's base form it's 90/10 but varies all the way up to 30/70 variably and proactively just by how you drive and what your throttle input is. 70% rear power with active vectoring closely resembles RWD behaviors while still being an AWD and then at other times SH allows for a heavy FWD bias for increased power and gas efficiency like when you are coasting or driving very lightly with limited throttle or come completely off the gas as if going down a hill or when preparing to come to an upcoming stop. An amazing combination of all three drive trains.

tlinsc

^ this

I'm just back from a ski trip to Snowshoe this past week, drove home on Sunday through the mess in NC. Snow to slush to dry and back again. All day.

In the WV mountains (snow covered roads the whole way) the car was amazing. A billy goat. Even with the craptastic all seasons. I had to be careful to pay attention to my curves ahead and down shifting because watching the torque vectoring show was so mesmerizing.

On the highway from county to county the road conditions varied greatly. High speeds (50ish) on snow covered and normal speed on dryer roads didn't cause a single moment of consternation.

I can say for sure the SH.AWD does just what it is advertised to do.

kingofire

I was at my dealership today and there was this guy by the name of Matt Targett or Hargett, sorry but he said his last name too fast and he seemed like a big honcho at Acura by the demeanors of their employees there and my salesperson brought him over to me since he "supposedly" was the expert of the new TL. We got into the whole styling issue and he told me pretty much the same thing to a tee as you stated above! You guys should get together!

George Knighton

Matt is the chief engineer.

ll_22

Acura still outsold Audi by total, mostly buoyed by the MDX.

I think it is time for us to consider the TSX as a sub-A4/3/C/G competitor, and the TL as a sub-A6/5/E. They are not designed to be directly competitive but as all the 3G owners have lamented, the 4G TL is bigger and has moved away from the compact luxury sports sedan segment....like it or not. What previous 3G owners should really hope for is further refinement of the TSX to better match the previous 3G TL's makeup....maybe a TSX Type-S can make some happy, and the TL can continue morphing into a "smart" ie cheaper alternative to the A6/5/E.

winstrolvtec

LOL, maybe we should get together. I don't know if that's a good thing or bad thing but if you see this Matt we are on the same page. I also have a lot of really good ideas for this car. Throw in some of that chief engineer salary and we got a deal.

miketala

Back on topic, wasn't there a article in one of the car mag's several years ago that compared the AWD features of numerous SUV's on a snow course? My recollection is that the Acura with SHAWD bested all others, including an audi and subaru.

I also just learned that you generally have to spend something like $50K on a mercedes to get real leather seats. that's a little weird.

ostrich

An E Class that is close to $60K still does not have leather seats as standard. You will get that "MB Tex" or whatever they call it, and you need to add thousands to get the real thing. The salesperson at the MB dealership tried to tell me that it was an act of being environmentally friendly, not hurting animals etc.... yeah right LOL.

Oh, BTW, you don't get an auto-dim mirror on the A4 or A5, unless you go for the Prestige trim, which will push the price all the way to the mid to high 40's. How about that!? LOL!

StonedCL

iTrader: (1)

Where are you getting your Information?

January 2010 Entry-Level Sales

1. 3 - 5,418
2. C - 4,028
3. A4/5 - 3,814
4. G - 3,763
5. ES - 2,923
6. CTS - 2,565
7. IS - 2,203
8. TL - 1,986
9. MKZ - 1,340
10. 9-3 - 429
11. S60 - 6

The "G" outsold the TL buy about 33% last month, and if u venture to get you facts strait i will bet the G outsold the TL evey month since it had the body change.. The 3G TL used to pounce on the G..

winstrolvtec

Correct, the G sedan has outsold the TL for Jan of 2010 but what I was going off of was not only the entire year of 2009 but also the entire time the 4G has been out compared to the G sedan, not just one month and you have to keep in mind the 2010 G model has just recently been released so they have been blowing out the left over 09's for the past month or so.

And those facts are straight plus a sedan shopper is a sedan shopper and a coupe a coupe, there is no way around that. If you want to argue that Acura is losing out because they have no coupe then I agree but to insist that the TL is down only because of the style and because individually you don't like it, is absurd. There are plenty of multiple 3G owners who are much happier with this car then the 3G or anything else for the money and that includes looks.

The 4G is not the 3G and the current G is not the G of old. We need to go off of what is not what was. The A4 is just as new a model as the 4G TL and considering all their variants they do no better and overall the G sedan is near the bottom of that bunch so the fact that some insist on picking on the TL sales and it's looks and don't consider the same for those other models only reveals a hidden agenda and proves that styling is highly subjective and just because something else looks better to one individual doesn't mean it's sales are in a place that proves otherwise either.

sleepinxlionhart

Perhaps this will help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asPpa51ZL80

sleepinxlionhart

Oh, and if you need more convincing, check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yidka...layer_embedded

watch it to where the cars try to climb up a slope, SH-AWD is obviously superior.

TechnoCat

Who and what are you trying to convince? This is an Acura Fan-Boy Forum; you'll mostly find believers here. Except a few of us who have had other high-end sedans, but we get shouted down anyhow.

There are many things that go into performance. SH-AWD seems the Bee's Knees in dry conditions once moving. Compared to Torsen-based Quattro, it's not so great in my personal experience in slippery conditions, especially from a stop or under sudden acceleration. Getting a bit of wheel spin with my TL 6MT (probably won't work with an emasculating automatic) is trivial; doing the same in an S4 is much much harder.

But if they test an S4, they'll show it with summers while the TL comes with M+S.

winstrolvtec

This is true and as you implied the start up slippage is mostly a 6MT characteristic because of the difference in power delivery but the TL also has a fairly powerful engine to be fair. Even an S4 with a 60% rear base, also in 6MT, with it's power and on all seasons, will spin and IMO, not in an as controlled manner as the FWD based SH. The rear ends like to step out on RWD based systems but there is stability control in either case so neither is that a big deal, trivial as you put it.

Olu

I bought the SH-AWD for what it does in dry and wet.

Some would say the auto is emasculating and some would say you need to learn how to launch your car properly.

kingofire

After driving in my first stormy winter weather, I am sold hook, line and sinker

sleepinxlionhart

I am trying to convince the OP that SH-AWD is superior by showing video that proves it and not just give opinions. Since the OP seems to be concerned about show traction the most, hence, the video.

graphicguy

sleep....nice find. Impressive too!

I had a BMW 330ix. No way I'd even attempt some of that which was in the Acura video.

TechnoCat

No video or single test can establish such a thing. I can easily set up conditions that will show SH-AWD inferior to an Audi Torsen Quattro setup. This would consist of hard launches with manual tranny on slick-ish conditions, and of extremely wet conditions at high speed in ruts, risking hydroplaning. (My experience with both systems is that Torsen Quattro prevents it entirely, while SH-AWD allows, probably by being mostly FWD until slippage is detected, but recovers in a second or so and therefore is nearly as safe excepting driver panic.) And I can easily set up conditions showing SH-AWD is superior to Audi Torsen Quattro - cornering under acceleration comes to mind, as that seems like a big advantage of SH-AWD... again, as long as it's not too sudden. But a well-run slalom should therefore show SH-AWD better.
In fairness, if Honda would just fix the software to keep the SH-AWD engaged at start always rather than allowing a full-open central differential (which is effectively what it's doing apparently when the graph shows 1/3 as much torque to the rear), all the disadvantages would probably vanish. But they haven't.

winstrolvtec

SH can correct for it's one or two shortcomings if you are patient enough to wait a split second, where most other systems just can't do what SH does in the first place. Advantage, SH-AWD.

cp3117

This is very true and has been stated in other threads and even on other forums. We have to remember that this again is a ACURA winter event, which is sponsored and set up by Honda/Acura. Audi, BMW, etc could also create their event and setup tests that would show their vehicles to be superior.

Remember the test Acura set up last year with the pre-production TL against the older 335 and the discontinued S4. Well if the S4 then was comparable by Honda's standard, then why isnt it at this event ? .......being its more powerful and has a better awd system also with torque vectoring I think we all know why Honda didnt want it there for this winter event and we can almost certainly assume they probably tested it before inviting everyone to come.

Its all part of the marketing and no different when audi did their ski hill test years ago.

Since we are showing video's for the OP, here is one posted by "Belzebutt" over in car talk with the SH-AWD in a real life situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSGr-IzrP8k

As you can see it really struggles in a rather simple situation to get out of the snow.

As "technocat stated", High speed driving in low traction/slippery conditions maybe a fault with SH-AWD as quoted by a driver in a MDX at the Acura driving event a couple years ago.

How SH-AWD Doesn't Work (posted by Bill Howard @ Gearlog)

"All these technologies provide a bit more traction, cornering, and confidence. But there's a limit to how much you can tinker with physics. On the longest of the road courses, the Audi Quattro Q7 was pitted against the MDX. Audi does well on traction and hill climbing with its three-differential solution.

The MDX was great going from a standstill to a power-on left turn onto the course (imagine a left turn in snow against oncoming traffic), and was precise and maneuverable at country-road speeds. But then, coming off a turn and heading for a series of lane-change pylons, I carried too much speed for the combination of SH-AWD, stability control, and steering inputs. The MDX understeered into a waist-high snowbank, sending a shower of fluffy white powder everywhere. It took a backhoe (with tire chains) to pull us out. "

Acura's SH-AWD is a very good system and has many good points and also bad points, but for people to watch a video at an event setup by Honda conducting a test designed by Honda so that its vehicle wont fail, then claim its the ultimate AWD system is rather crazy.

winstrolvtec

Everything has it's advantages and negatives, nothing better or worse overall just different. What an indivdual needs out of it and how much value they place in it's strong points and how they tolerate it's negatives will decide if it is better or worse for them.

Having said that, the video of the RL doesn't place anything as a competitor in the same type of situation for a comparison. We also don't know the type and condition of the tires. I don't care what you drive, it can be any SUV, you are still going to have some difficulty getting out of being plowed in with that amount of snow. This was even in my neck of the woods which I am all to familar with so if my word is not good for it than nothing will be.

You have what is several inches on one side and about a foot street side and not a very good job of clearing or shoveling if any and it still made it out. We don't know how soft or hard the snow is and whether is there is any ice or not, so to draw conclusions from one video and one instance with no comparison isn't any better, in fact it's worse.

The same thing goes for some dude losing control of an MDX. That does not mean anything either. He says he carried too much speed not that he took it at the same speed on all cars. That doesn't necessarily mean it is worse, that could have very well happened if it was better, inspiring too much confidence.

Although it may be an Acura sponsored event, it welcomed all to drive each car through each test. The playing field is level. It's not as if the Acura vehicles had snow tires and the others all seasons. The Acura vehicles still had to actually do better for there to be a point in the first place.

SH clearly demonstrates a very big advantage in certain situations and that test was probably there for that reason alone but it's also an excellent example of an actual real world comparison but I wouldn't say the best. No one is doubting for a second that there are other systems that could fair better in other situations but until we have those on video we see a lot of visual evidence of why most of us went in this direction for a car.

I for one would welcome anything that is a direct competition and preferably also a video, where another AWD fairs better in any amount of tests or situations because it's intersting and educational not because I can point fingures and say this is better or that is worse.

graphicguy

Can't overcome physics, no matter what the version of AWD, traction control, etc available to you.

Bottom line, the SH AWD is good, in dry and wintry conditions. Nothing will overcome every single obstacle......(well, maybe a Hummer). I'm betting if the guy in the above video had studded snow tires, there wouldn't be an issue. Plus, he/she doesn't look like they've ever driven in snow before. Can't make up for stupidity, either.

Olu

The video above tells nothing about sh-awd.

1st of all whoever's driving is using short bursts on the accelerator. I think lighter constant power would allow sh-awd to do what it's got to.
2nd You hear some one say, "oh my god it's ice"
3rd The front tire is rubbing the curb which stops the cars movement. This would happen if it was bone dry as well.

George Knighton

I think the main problem with the automatic is that it simply needs another gear. :-) With 5AT, the ratios have to be a compromise that won't destroy fuel economy, and I don't think the 5AT works very well with the paddles, either.

If I had to pick a single thing I do not like about the TL generally, it is that they couldn't produce the 6AT soon enough to put into it.

jspagna1

Put a set of Bridgestone Blizzaks on that car and it would be a whole different story. Are we sure that's a SH-AWD?
I put Blizzaks on my daughters 2003 Maxima SE and that thing becomes a beast in the snow. It is actually better/stable in the snow than my 4Runner.
My wife has Blizzaks on the new TL and there has not been an issue with the New England snow thus far.

Pete2010

I agree, I put some Dunlop Wintersport M3's on my TL and it is a tank in the snow. Drove thru whiteout conditions in Canada with a completely snow covered road, and I never once felt out of control.

winstrolvtec

So it seems that although Acura sponsored the event, the testing was arranged by a third party auto environmental testing company and facility. They didn't pick the tests or decide what tests were going to be used, they were already there. Sure maybe they knew how well they would do there before selecting that location but it's not as biased as some want to make it seem. Here is their website. http://www.aettesting.com/

Likewise, I don't think Acura brought the other cars in for testing but I must admit I could be wrong. Good chance they were volunteered and represented by their specific parties. I would have been nice to see more cars like the A6 or 5 series and the S4 with the active differential but I am sure Acura did not go completely out on their own to get these. Who is going to volunteer their brand new S4 or S5?

Not to mention they would have needed a tire swap as they don't come with all seasons in production so that may be another reason why it wasn't there. Before I speculate anymore, the bottom line is we don't know how these other vehicles were acquired or if their brands had to approve of their use or if they volunteered the cars themselves or if they were even there representing them. Lets not draw conclusions from nothing.

What we do know is that SH-AWD is damn good and superior enough in many ways that it sent all it's major competitors back to the drawing board and they have come up with nothing more than to copy it. What does that say all by itself? And not to give credit where's it's not due they didn't even engineer their own, it's third party.

StonedCL

iTrader: (1)

That youtube thing with the MDX and Q7 is BS.. NO AWD system would do that on pure ice... how easy they can run up there and throw down rocksalt before the MDX went.. Why didnt they have the camera contiously running the whole time and they try one after anouther nbot cut out and throw down some saly ir grit then let the MDX go... com'on look at it.. no way no wheel slip on pure ice!!
You actully belive the MDX made it up pure ice like that w/o and slippiga after the first 10 feet??

MTL_tl2009shawd

This is a great video that shows the sh-awd in action

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yidka...layer_embedded

JD23

The video was posted by Jeff from Temple of VTEC, who attended the Acura winter event. The video is legitimate and is not BS - it is simply one example of a situation where SH-AWD is superior to other AWD systems. I am sure that Audi could also create a test illustrating that its AWD system is superior in another scenario.

legend74

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lUoLGv7G6s

You see this works both ways. It doesn't matter what car you have in snow and ice if you have the wrong tires on for your situation.

cp3117

^^^ LOL....Yes, summer tires on a NON-Quattro Audi is a pain in snow or ice. Hopefully this person will look at a Quattro for his next purchase.

The only reason I posted the other video above is because I have been in situations worse than that with my girlfriends Subaru (with OEM's) and it basically would walk right out of that situation. No one can really tell why the RL cant make it out but we can assume by looking at the wheels that they are probably OEM's and he was fighting to get to the dry sidewalk in order to get out. If it wasn't for that he probably would have been digging.

sleepinxlionhart

Um, FYI, there was some slippage at first. If you knew how SH-AWD works, then you wouldn't be calling it BS. SH-AWD has the ability to transfer 100% of the torque to independent wheels. Therefore, for the MDX, the tires that are on the asphalt and not the ice gets the torque, this helping it climb up the hill.

and FYI, for the event, these cars were also put to the test: 2010 Audi Q7, 2010 BMW 335xi, 2010 BMW X6 3.5 xDrive, 2010 Infiniti FX35, and 2010 Lexus RX350.
http://vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=879935

If SH-AWD is a load of BS, why is BMW copying it with their "torque vectoring system"? Why is Saab copying it with their XWD?

George Knighton

It's the right rear wheel that pushed the car up the hill. A significant amount of torque went to the right rear wheel, with the rest going to the two front wheels.

The car is smart enough to deliver the maximum percentage rearward, and of that maximum, 100% went to the right rear wheel.

The whole point of the demonstration was to show you that the SH-AWD car is going to be smart enough to get you up a hill in those conditions.

That is the whole point.

You only need to be able to get traction on one wheel to get up the hill.

This continues to be an SH-AWD exclusive advantage in the price range, and the same technology makes for significantly better handling vehicles in dry weather and high performance applications.

I don't know if you guys have noticed this, but the owners manual (that big Bible that we're not going to read) mentions how to change the tyre pressures for high speed, sanctioned driving events on closed circuits.

TechnoCat

Wow, so much misunderstanding, so little space!
That "100% of torque" is just marketing-speak; it has no real meaning. To transfer 100% of the torque, the SH-AWD would have to decouple the non-gripping wheel entirely. That doesn't happen. And all the major systems are equally capable of (after a bit of slippage) doing the equivalent of locked diffs. Of them, only the Subaru Planetary Gear and the Audi Torsen Quattro systems (which are not all of the Suby or Audi systems) don't require the slippage first. SH-AWD is just as bad as the others in this respect.

The reason BWM is moving towards a similarly geared system to SH-AWD has nothing to do with ice or winter driving and everything to do with fast cornering on clean dry winding roads. Not every AWD enhancement improves every aspect of driving!

sleepinxlionhart

I never said that BMW was utilizing it just for winter driving did I? I am aware that AWD also enhances driving outside of winter driving.

Whatever man, it seems like you have a bone to pick with Acura's SH-AWD system. Why get a SH-AWD TL in the first place when you could have gotten one of the other cars with a "better" AWD system?