pimpin-tl

Wow, on VW site they mention Audi in something like this:

"If you choose to register or receive products or materials from us, or to otherwise give us personal information, we may store some or all of that personal information and use it for marketing research and marketing purposes, which may include sharing it with Volkswagen or Audi authorized dealerships or with various suppliers that provide marketing, research, or other services for us. If you choose to save information, such as a vehicle configuration, on our website(s), we may contact you to follow up on your interest in our cars. In such cases, we may employ an outside research company to call you on our behalf."

Or here off VW site had a link that took me here which shows all of them. Wow......

http://www.volkswagengroupamerica.com/

Rugel

If Acura gave us all the good stuff then the price will go up....then everyone will be crying about the price. What you pay is what you get. If ur not happy with the car then pls look at buying something that makes you happy.

winstrolvtec

I don't see what them being built in the same factory means other than Honda started Acura instead of purchasing another prexisting company. Both models are exclusive US based, designed and engineered which have gone on to be incorporated elsewhere and so happen to share the same platform so it makes perfect production sense on all levels to build them at the same plant.

If they made them in different plants with one saying Acura and the other Honda would that make them any different? Exactly and that is what VW and Audi do and it's really no different.

I also don't see how Honda coming before Acura makes a difference compared to Audi aquiring VW. They now practice a lot of the same sharing that goes on with other brands. It makes no difference since the concept is exactly the same, history has nothing to do with it. Audi parts trickle down to VW like Acura parts do to Honda, you seriously think that Audi predating VW somehow makes that any different or better?

Buying a mainstream VW Toureg is the same thing as buying a Honda Pilot compared to an Audi Q7 and Acura MDX. Affiliation has little to do with anything. The product defines the product not where it comes from or who builds it or what parts it shares.

winstrolvtec

The conflict over the RL was with Honda Japan not Honda NA. Naturally major corporations would have branches in countries where they conduct business. Honda Japan is who really calls most of those shots.

winstrolvtec

Anything can compete really, we were talking about direct competitors where the SH has one in the CC VR6 perhaps and the Caddy CTS but that's about it. The FWD competes with the ES type vehicles. On a broader scale, the entire entry class is correct. I wasn't comparing the TL directly to a 5 series, I pointed out just how it could be compared or to any mid level for that matter, in price, position and size.

Ok and the TSX is still that big entry level car. It's still in the same size range as an ES or LaCrosse. Next gen will only have this car taking the TL's old spot obviously, just look at how much the TSX and TL have transitioned from what they were one generation ago.

I have had plenty of TL's to know what the volume seller is. I also know that the sales have shifted in the TSX direction because of the transition from what the 3G was to what the 4G is. The TSX better resembles that now. The styling is a part of it but so is the adoption of SH, added size and price, which is a push upmarket. You are looking at the model, I am looking at the position like Acura does, which can be altered. The S4 can move down, the TSX can move up, I hope that helps.

Which info is that? Ok they are built in the same plant what does that have to do with building a FWD TL or not?

TechnoCat

Okay, good catch. I missed that. But that's nowhere near the level of the Honda site making Acura the second most prominent link total.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

That may be a bit too definitive at this point, especially considering the last time we were getting a new RL we were told it "will" have rear drive and an available V-8 of 4.8-liters displacement (which continued years after for the supposed 3G RL).
I haven't heard this, but I doubt Lexus would do that. The only people complaining about it being a fancy Camry are generally not the buyer base anyway that Lexus is aiming for. The people that say that are likely to be shopping for a sport sedan in the ES350's price range.

Furthermore, it would be very expensive to put it on its own platform, especially as it's still selling very well even in a fairly old age against other stronger new cars like the Acura TL, Nissan Maxima, Cadillac CTS, Hyundai Genesis, etc. <<<< I'm not saying all of those are direct competitors but surely at least some of them get cross shopped.

pimpin-tl

The other link I posted does. Get over it. Your Audis are VWs like Acuras are Hondas and Infinitis are Nissans. You make it seem like Audi is on this pedestal when it isn't. You have been proven wrong so go away.

graphicguy

I've always viewed it a little differently. If Audi, Mercedes, BMW...the european competition to the TL, would cut the amount of money out of their cars to compete price-wise with the TL, what would you end up with?

For example, if an A4 quatro with the Prestige Package and Nav system (closest config to a TL SH AWD Tech) can only be had with a 4 cyl engine, how much would it cost with a 300+ HP V6 (like the TL has)?

TechnoCat

Are you certain your 09 does? My 2010 does not. And it's been a hot topic here. Maybe you got a rebadged Accord?

Audi A4 from base and BMW 3-Series by option (everything in a BMW is an option), Lincoln, Cadillac, Mercedes (C-Class) all have folding rear seats.

I presume Saab and Volvo too, but didn't check.

The 2010 TH SH-AWD does not have a flat trunk floor ,and clinks rather than clunks. Yes, I have one with 15,000 miles on it in about eight months.

This board has had quite a debate, with more than a few people thinking the previous gen TL (presumably your TL-S) was the best ever and the current one a step back. So I would believe it has better sounds and tiltable head rest. I think you're wrong about your 2009 having it though.

TechnoCat

Good grief! Have you read any of what you've linked? It's you who has been proven wrong.

• VAG owns VW cars, VW commercial and Audi... and Bugatti and others... at a very top level...
• And is over half-owned (in voting shares) by Porsche.
• Acura was created, not bought, by Honda.
• Acura NA and Honda NA are in the same office in Torrance, CA.
• Acura and Honda are on the same manufacturing line in Marysville, Ohio.
• Audi and VW do not share a manufacturing line or any HQ offices.

You can't change reality by repeating the same lies over and over again. Try adjusting to the facts instead.

smarty666

Maybe I mis understood at first but I think we are agreeing on the same points. That was what I was saying, Infiniti and Lexus used to have many if not all their models as rebadged versions of Toyota and Nissan products either here or somewhere else in the world. Both those companies realized that and have begun changing that so they can't be thrown up with the rebadge dis so many people like to use against them. I'm saying that Acura should follow suit. Getting rid of the Legend is a help. Even with it gone, the current RL is till sharing its platform. I think Acura would be smart, if when they completely redo the RL that it gets gutted completely and a fresh/unique new separate platform from anything else in the Acura or Honda line-up, here or around the world. I mean that is not the only thing they have to do to the RL obviously, but it would be a big help I think for allowing the RL to get back some prestige and reputation.

smarty666

Well that is why I used the word supposedly. Nothing is set in stone, but I've read several reviews and inside rumors from Lexus people online stating that Lexus is thinking of going that route. Does that mean they will, no, though I think they should, just like I think it can only help Acura to begin making separate unique platforms for some of their models, from Honda vehicles.

Problem with the ES is, even though its dated and getting near to its current generation, its still sells pretty well for Lexus, despite the boring, blah look to it. Just goes to show, that even if a luxury vehicle shares a platform with a mainstream vehicle, if the company is able to differentiate is enough in every other aspect, it can sell really well. The 3G TL is another great example of that.

BEAR-AvHistory

For what's it worth, the perception out in the real world.

One of the big Toyota dealers here just opened a separate "Luxury Motors" lot for in their words, "pre-owned luxury cars".

The TV, radio & newspaper adds list late model Mercedes, Lexus, BMW & Audi as available. The inventory looks to be mostly low mileage 2007/8 so I expect they are cars coming off lease. The one exception is a 2003 "G" with low mileage for its age. Although TL's are a dime a dozen here so far they are not advertised or listed in the inventory.

All the rest of their used cars are on what the call the big lot.

TechnoCat

That's a fascinating question, because I don't think you'd wind up in the same place. A basic A4 is less expensive than a basic TL...

• Base TL starts at $35,105 according to the Acura site
• Base A4 (also FWD) starts at $31,450 according to the Audi site

The base TL has more power, bigger engine, more tech. In my opinion (since feature checklists don't matter on this board ), the Audi has nicer materials (except the TL seat leather is fantastic when leather is in both cars), better finishing, a more refined engine and more small luxuries.
Do you know what a $31K Acura TL is called? It's called an Accord EX-L V6 with Sat Link. At $31.105. And it's a nice full-featured sedan too. Made on the same factory line as the TL.

pimpin-tl

Wait, the 09 moves for crash cushion and doesn't adjust but my 07 does adjust. It adjusts forward which is nice.

Between our 09, and 07, the 07 seems to be a little more solid than the 09.

Pete2010

TL has those - use the same switch you use to adjust the side mirrors, left or right to select which side you want to tilt down when you reverse. I believe that the Germans only tilt down the passenger side mirror and down allow you that option, they must not have any one way roads to park on across the pond... How dare those other car manufacturers not build in the ability for me to select which mirror I want to be tilted down.

I think it's time to put on the big boy pants and buy an S4.

http://bit.ly/a7G2F9

Enjoy it in good health. I don't know why people seem to take pleasure in being dissatisfied with what they spend their money on. I guess some people are only happy when they are un-happy.

pimpin-tl

Missed that. Both our TL's have the electronic reverse side mirrors that go down. I don't use it though.

pimpin-tl

Okay, so? The Audi's and VW's still share many of the same parts even if they are in different factories. They again are virtually the SAME CAR like the TL is a Accord. The Golf is a A3.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Yeah I don't mean that you think it would happen. I'm just rather shocked that Lexus would consider it at all. It sells very well and there is just no reason for Lexus to even consider it....it's like saying that the Cayenne and Touareg are going their separate ways. No real reason to.

However, I have heard on a few sites that Lexus is considering scapping the ES altogether. Again, that makes no real sense. It would make more sense for them to scrap the Avalon, which is in a somewhat similar market with slipping sales.

So it's stories like that which make me suspect that it's just bloggers and the like yapping about nonsensical stuff.

smarty666

Yeah, I have heard about the scrapping rumor too and I think like you that would be a mistake since it sells well for Lexus. But who knows what they are going to do. It will be interesting, if they do redesign it and not scrap it, to see what Lexus does since the new LaCrosse is aimed at it and they'll have to keep that vehicle in close mind when designing.

BEAR-AvHistory

Makes no business sense at all for the Europeans to cut the price to TL's level. They are selling cars at a pretty good clip & don't consider the TL a competitor.

I expect they have a very nice profit margin on their cars & see no reason to cut it just for a part share of the 2500 or so TL's sold each month.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I absolutely agree. The ES was also one of the most cross shopped vehicles with the Lacrosse, at least according to one article. I'll have to go search for it, but so many companies say people are going to compare X to Y and it never happens. For example, Kia saying the Borrego compares to luxury SUVs like the M-Class and GX Lexus. Yeah, right.

I don't remember if it was in this thread or not but recently I mentioned I think the next ES needs to go for the taut suppleness of the Lacrosse (which has the comfort of the Lexus but much more control and lacks the wallowy feel of the syrupy Lexus). I think all wheel drive is an option to consider offering as the Buick has that point, and design and quality will be crucial.

They also need to watch for features too, because I really do feel like some of these upscale cars could be losing some sales to the very advanced new sedans in the family car class. Now you can get those cars with similar power, 6-speed transmissions, heated/cooled seats and heated in back, the fancy sunroofs, pushbutton start, surround sound audio, remoteless entry, and the list goes on and on.

smarty666

Yeah, I mean if Lexus, and Toyota for that matter, could keep their supple ride quality, but improve their handling and floaty/wallowy characteristics they would really have something to brag about and a lot more people, like us, would be willing to try that. I've looked at Lexus and Toyota extensively, and those were the two big things that turned me away from getting any of their products!

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Toyota does fix it with something like the GS in terms of handling and composure, but Toyota does not fix the "feel". Steering is still numb (just precise but numb, like the 4G TL), the pedals feel digital, that kind of stuff. It's subjective to be sure, but when it remains as consistent a complaint from enthusiasts and reviewers alike it's probably a negative point.

I think Toyota's 30-45K sedan box is too cluttered now, like GM of the past. There the loaded Camry, Avalon, ES, HS, and IS. Many with very different personalities, but I think some more variety could be had. The HS isn't working so I'm in favor of integreting the hybrid Camry drivetrain with the ES like Lincoln is doing with the MKZ. The Avalon isn't a great success anymore so maybe Toyota could try a new set of customers by bringing us something like the Mark X.

TechnoCat

RE: Electrical tilt mirrors
I mis-named them. On the Audis, you can twist the knob and the entire mirrors fold against the car. On the TL, you do that by hand, reaching out the window. It's for parking in tight spaces or pulling up to your mailbox safely.

TechnoCat

This matches what I've heard. That the 07 was the sweet spot. My 10 is lacking a bit.
For the A3 and Golf, I fully agree. And in general I don't disagree anyhow. I have been making the case that Acura is not really a separate entity, but I did buy one knowing that. I don't think it actually matters.

TandooriChicken

My personal experience (I could generalize it to all cars everywhere but will try to resist the urge... and probably fail):

I have owned several Volkswagens, and heavily modified a couple. The one thing they all had in common was that many parts failed (even before my modifications stressed them beyond their intended tolerances, so don't blame that!). I do not want a car which uses those parts, no matter who makes it, what it's called, who owned what when... yadda yadda. I have owned three Hondas (well, they were my wife's, but same diff), total mileage more than 400,000, and had exactly ONE repair other than usual maintenance stuff (distributor cap failed at 130000 miles on the 95 Accord).

I cross-shopped extensively now that I finally had the money to buy a fancy car. I drove TL SH-AWD 6MT twice, 5AT once. I drove G37S and xS once each. I drove S4 manual and DCT (manual twice). I drove 335i and 335iX, regrettably both with the slushbox (BMW salesman, who was in general a dick: "Our customers prefer the refinement of an automatic. We usually don't get many manuals." Shame if you want to sell a car to someone who actually enjoys driving. They did have the 328i with a manual, which I was not impressed with, clutch wasn't great either). Lexus IS350 (doesn't even have a manual option, you have to go down an engine class to get that) once. All of these drives were at least 45 minutes. I thoroughly enjoyed the entire process and found something to like in all the cars (though the Lexus and BMW sales guys were tools, which I will admit would have made me shop different dealers even if I had decided on those cars).

335i arguably the best sheer driving car. Great handling dynamics, wonderful engine (gorgeous, awesome, etc etc it really is an incredible engine). Marred by weak gearbox. I enjoy the racetrack and, despite it's subjectively superior steering/cornering cannot imagine it would beat a TL around anything with more than a few corners, and just as much because of tranny as lack of torque-vectoring.

TL close second in dynamics, maybe technically a better performer in cornering due to technological superiority (or electronic cheating, depending on your perspective; I just like to go around curves faster and don't particularly care how). Manual trans was fantastic (as good a trans as the N54 is an engine), clutch excellent but just a bit vague in terms of takeup.

G37 manual and auto trans were both abominable. Didn't look much past that. I can't even describe what the xS tried to do when I attempted a 5th to 2nd downshift using the paddles... it was like when a boat's engine quits.

I would have driven the Maxima but no manual trans and my job sort-of requires a "luxury" car.

S4 looks like a brick and drives like one (how can the same company make this and the S5?). It is fast-ish in a straight line, and I do like the clutch, but the transmission throws were VW-length and the steering and cornering were much more "luxury" than "sport," which makes no sense for a "sport" model of a luxury car. Like if the M3 handled like a 7-series.

IS350... well, I just don't get it, but lots of people around where I live buy them, and the even less comprehensible 250s, in droves.

In terms of the Automobile mag article itself, I wonder if they drove a different S4 than I did. Would love to settle it on the track, which is really the only scoresheet that matters to me. Unfortunately, real life demands a certain practicality, and I was unable to arrange a side-by-side of the TL and S4. Anyway, if Ct Engineering ever finishes supercharger kit for TL, I can reinvest some of my savings on not buying overpriced German car and be even happier than I already am.

For years I smoked the crack of "German engineering," but I am beginning to believe it was just a lot of hype. That being said, if I had the funds available, I would certainly buy an M3 or Cayman S (or maybe even Corvette Z06). That is the niche I would love to see Acura attack. If their effort was anything like the TL, it would probably save me 10000-20000 bucks on my next car.

Or maybe I will just put an LS7 in an MDX... no one's done that yet, that I know of.

TandooriChicken

Btw, all this begs the question, what are we hoping to get out of car magazine comparos? There is no substitute for having one's ass in the pilot seat. That being said, I do love car magazines. Maybe it's like porno for car nuts...

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

The article mentioned that the S4's steering is numb, so I guess that's why you felt the S4 was "more luxury than sport." As for handling, perhaps the one you drove did not have the torque vectoring system?

Then, looking at the lap times, the TL and S4 are only 0.4s apart. The S4 is way faster in the straight line, but for the TL to get that close to the S4, the TL's handling must be really good.