winstrolvtec

I think that is why they didn't just go ahead and make such a radical change and we are seeing the transition happen one step at a time. I agree it will take more time as they are not there yet but we should expect by next generation for SH to make it into the TSX, the TL to likely drop the FWD model, for them to add an exclusive and new RL and not just a rebadged Legend since it's been cut off and finally a sub entry level vehicle below the TSX. I think that is a systematic approach over just trying to reposition one vehicle and will work much better.

It's hard to change the perceptions but with just one model generation they have started and eventually will gain enough attention around the TL and how it is now considered a tweener, for the most part. With the next generation they will likely aim to establish it has a true mid level. Not necessarily to win over that entire segment but be just more competitive or competitive enough. More importantly within the Acura consumer base the TL is already as good as a base mid level when compared to the RL. The only question is whether the next RL goes all out or will be just a tweener for the mid to full sized class where that will keep the TL an entry to mid tweener and could impact where they go with the the TSX.

As mycarisntinmywifesname suggested, it all gets determined by the RL.

jasonwdp10

The base (fwd) model is the volume seller.. to drop that model would mean they're no longer entry level and they'd lose a large number of buyers right away. Then the TL might go through the same thing the RL is going through now.

winstrolvtec

I am not saying that could happen anytime soon but with the current position the TSX holds and will further gain next generation plus an added model below it, I don't think a FWD TL will be necessary. They already see too much cross shopping within the brand with the TSX, TL, and RL as it is, not to mention it's confusing to most.

CTsteve

This is a wonderful thread.

Yes, Honda must allow the TSX to be the near-luxury entrant.

Yes, TL must climb up-market and compete head-to-head with the BMW 5-series.

The RL must be rethought.

I skew towards drivers' cars. I like our 2010 TL sh-awd/tech/6MT. I would like to see Honda noodle the little stuff and make a good car even better.

just my $0.02.

jasonwdp10

I think there just needs to be a clear size, powertrain, and feature set difference. For example, sub tsx (subcompact (with a hatch version?), max out at tech pkg), tsx (compact, max out at tech pkg), TL (mid-size, max out at advanced pkg), RL (full size, max out at advance and/or elite pkg)

two SUV's is fine really, just make the RDX more efficient. RDX (compact SUV, top out at tech pkg), MDX (midsize SUV, top out at advanced + ent. pkg).

Once their main vehicles are complete and properly differentiated

THEN make a coupe/convertible. One compact coupe that tops out at the tech pkg, with the option for convertible. One midsize coupe that tops out at advanced pkg. Bring back the type S designation for performance vehicles, for both coupes, and the tsx/tl.

I don't see the need for a vehicle like the ZDX. I also dont' see acura ever making a full size SUV being that they're all about going green. It would be even worse than the ZDX in terms of being in conflict with their philosophy.

Monte TLS,MAX

I have heard and just read of rumors that the RL may be dropped....
http://www.autoweek.com/article/2010...NEWS/100719901

YetiTL

Yes that's all logical and rational but we want our twin turbo 600hp 2+2 NSX SH-AWD with 7sp dual clutch AT and 6 MT with tech + advance package at 40K$ or less! Oh and it will make apple pie and pudding!

Now excuse me while I make more irrational thoughts....

I think you nailed it pretty good!

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Acura might as well just not move up much in prestige and just compete with the rebirthed Saab and Volvo brands, maybe Buick as well. Not every luxury brand has to be a top-tier brand competing with the Germans.

winstrolvtec

The Legend is being dropped, the RL for the NA will remain. This is actually good news since it was Honda who forced the Legend down Acura's throat to be used as the RL instead of a dedicated flagship. We know how that turned out and it has done more than just hold them back.

With the Legend out of the way Acura is free to design it's own flagship like it should have years ago. The direction of the last RL has dictated the direction of Acura as a whole and so will be the case for the next one. So it will be interesting to see what develops from a rumor standpoint.

I think they can still become extra competitive without necessarily having to be considered a top tier luxury company. They can just do average luxury as they have a lot of other things going for them instead even over other top luxury brands, plus they sell well as a whole and are very profitable. Not to mention, I don't think people want to lose the value side of it.

I would welcome them just closing the gap a bit in luxury and refinement by simply adding a few of those little extra features and touches while still remaining nearly as competitive in pricing, without then sacrificing where they do excel already. Then add the new engine and tranny tech, maybe tone down the design theme and who really wouldn't be happy with that product from both a luxury or a value standpoint? This way we get the best of both worlds or at least a better balance of both.

CTsteve

Using a hockey metaphor, courtesy of Wayne Gretzky, Steve Jobs says Apple tries to skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been.
Sound advice.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Yes, I just think that they should aim to be competitive with the more "upscale" brands or "entry luxury" brands. Like I said, not every luxury brand has to be very premium. Some people just want to pay some extra cash for addition features, performance, dealer experiences, and prestige without paying out of their ass. Compared to most families cars, that's why I opted for the sedans I've been buying instead of the mainstream versions, lest the prestige.

TechnoCat

There is no such thing as a non-Honda Acura. Even the Acura-specific models are built on common lines... and Acura Design in Torrance was a recent offshoot of Honda R&D, rather than a pre-existing or from-scratch group. This is completely different than, for example, Audi and VW... Audi predates VW, has entirely distinct engineering (that does flow down to VW, but starts on Audi), and is manufactured in different plants. The Accord is built on the same line as the TL in Ohio. I'm not sure about now, but when I worked in Europe, vehicles we call Acura were labelled Honda there.

TechnoCat

The TL is so close to this that it hurts! Well, actually it's the headrests that hurt, but seriously, the car is only $2500 in manufacturing from being perfect. Pity they didn't go the distance, because every miss pushes you further out.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

You mean the Acura TSX/Honda Accord and Acura RL/Honda Legend correct? I don't think any other vehicles we get badged as Acuras are sold in Europe but I could always be wrong.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I think the TL competes strongly against the brands I mentioned even today, despite my critical view of the 4G.

The TL compares quite nicely with the Volvo S80 and Saab 9-5 2010 in price, and both of the Swedes start with a basic front drive model and move to all wheel drive higher output 6-cylinder versions. The S80 in its higher forms offers features (and resulting pricing) more akin to the RL, but with the 2011 S80 dropping the V8 some of that edge will likely be taken off, and the 4.5G TL may continue to narrow that gap. Buick is behind all three of these arguably but they're coming on strong and quickly.

TechnoCat

Yes, I agree that the TL competes very well with the Volvo S80 and Saab 9-5. Both of which are suffering in sales. I don't know Buick well, but the name Buick does not scream "sporty sedan" the way the others try to.

But when posters here talk about TL "competitors", they usually mention the Germans, not the Swedes.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

The 9-5 2010 isn't even out yet to be failing is it? At least I've seen nothing more than "preview drives" and even their site doesn't let you build one or anything. The two tests I've seen were by the Dutch on YouTube, as it's always on sale in most of Europe.

The TL is definately the sportiest of the four. The 9-5 mixes sportiness with more comfort than the TL (at least according to initial tests in Europe). The S80 is mostly comfort but tight and taut enough to not fall on its doors like a Park Avenue in corners, remaining still a pleasure to drive. Buick doesn't build a direct competitive but they're still ascending. With the new Regal the Lacrosse is likely to start heading upmarket as they now face a similar overlap that the TSX/TL does.

They probably all aren't direct competitors in terms of how they drive, but driving quality doesn't dictate that.... no matter how much some of us enthusiasts try. People still cross shop an Altima with a syrup-in-the-suspension Camry all the time.

pimpin-tl

http://blog.roadandtrack.com/acura-r...-silly-second/

RL lives.

winstrolvtec

Great but my point had nothing to do with how Honda/Acura compare to Audi/VW. However you want to look at it, Acura has quite a few exclusive models. The TSX and RL are the only rebagded products. Before this generation RL came out Acura had a $70k RL in works with RWD and V8, basically a real flagship for the North American market but Honda Japan shot it down saying it would cost too much and said here use the Legend instead. With the Legend out of the way, that means we will finally get an exclusive flagship.

smarty666

Yeah, but the TL shares the Accord platform and thats not helping anything. At least starting with the 3G TL, Acura started making the TL look, feel, handle, ride, and perform very different from the Accord and the 4G TL is even a further departure from the current Accord, but they still share the same platform unfortunately and a lot of hard core enthusiast complain about it. I'm not one of them b/c I could care less, but I'm just saying I think it would be better if Acura took Infiniti's and Lexus's direction of have separate unique platforms to their vehicles.

For instance, the next gen ES is supposedly (that being the key word there) not share the Camry platform anymore and get its own unique one. Lexus must have gotten a message b/c people have always critized that vehicle as a rebadged Camry and why pay more for that, which I disagree with, but it still remains a complaint none the less.

winstrolvtec

I see what you guys are saying but I was really just talking about the RL and it got spun into a different direction. Anyway since we are discussing it, I don't know what kind of enthusiast is complaining about the TL platform since it delivers, especially for a car of this size and weight and the ride is awesome for it's capabilities. The SH is one of the best performing sedans anyone could own especially the most enthusiastic version, the 6MT and it's capabilities rival that of sedans which cost nearly twice as much. The TL is still an entry priced vehicle so I don't know exactly what people expect.

I agree, in the past stuff like platform sharing actually meant something and it was reflected in the products but today it's just a realization. If no one knew this fact no one would be able to tell a difference and I have an Accord in the driveway as well. Doesn't matter what brand or what kind of sharing they do, the products are significantly different even within the same division.

Infiniti and Lexus do have distinct platforms but are mostly rebadged Toyota and Nissan products in the first place. I think Acura should also develop at least one distinct platform for the Acura brand as the others do plus maintain distinct models that are Acura exclusives, which the others really don't. I don't see how a different platform rebadge is anything better than a shared platform luxury division exclusive. You really need a combination of both. They use them because they build RWD and V8, it's absolutely necessarily in that case, Acura doesn't. If Toyota and Nissan used SH-AWD and only V6's, they wouldn't build seperate platforms either.

The next RL should have it's own platform that then trickles down to the next TL, especially at that price point and considering what it might be competing against but in the case of the ES and if Lexus decides to build it it's own platform, I don't see the cost benefit in that, unless it's getting a V8, RWD or an AWD addition. Otherwise they are not somehow going to make such a superior product based on a new platform alone, especially if it's to remain FWD. If anything, it wouldn't change much or at least not something that couldn't be tweaked (for the most part) from the same platform and most probably wouldn't notice a difference and they would still have to pay more for it anyway or it cuts into their profits.

In most cases these are not ES or Accord platforms, they are global platforms that are shared. The only bad part is the misconception that suggests these are just unacceptable mainstream platforms that don't belong in luxury cars. This is not the case and is the reason why cars like the Camry and Accord are best sellers in the first place.

TechnoCat

But your point doesn't really hold water even for the "exclusive" models because... wait for it... there is no Acura!

Acura is a label, a brand, for American consumption; it doesn't exist in Europe or in Japan. There aren't any "Acura Manufacturing Plants", for example.

Lest you forget , your sentence was that Honda forced the Legend down Acura's throat. Again, there is no Acura. There are Audis, there are BMWs, you can even make a good case for GM-Cadillacs, as the CTS shares some parts and plants with other brands but is far more distinct from it's brandmates and is offered in far more countries (e.g. Australia) than the Acura TL.

This isn't a diss of Acura; I don't think it matters to the brand value whether it's aimed just at our market. But you can't really get away with saying Honda forced something on Acura; there is no distinct Acura.

winstrolvtec

^You are arguing the way I chose to word something because of your interpretation of what was said meaning something else that has little to do with the topic or the point because you believe Acura is not at all distant from Honda. That may very well be the case yet I never pointed out just how distant or seperate they are, or my opinion of that, only that the Acura DIVISION had their plans for an exclusive flagship and HONDA as a whole decided it was a no go.

So whether that was Honda denying Acura or Honda denying Honda doesn't deduct from the point. You are turning this into a discussion of just how seperate the branding is when I didn't even make a claim for that subject. Are you really arguing semantics?

If that's the case there are many who would welcome discussion on you saying there is no Acura because admitting there are Acura exclusive models then saying there is no Acura, is a contradiction, but I still managed to get your point, whether I agree with it or not.

pimpin-tl

Well VW is Audi. And they do share parts between Audis and VW's.

smarty666

You see, that is not the point I'm trying to make. Maybe enthusiast was not the right word, but there are plenty of people on here and other sites that look down upon Acura b/c they share platforms with Honda. I personally do not, but a lot of people do. Only one of many reasons. MB and BMW do not obviously have this issue and people are always going to compare Acura to them.

Now you've set yourself up for a double standard, its okay for Acura to do it, but then you make the statement Infiniti and Lexus are rebadged Nissan's and Toyota's and they are not. At least, after the next one or two years, none of their products will be sharing platforms anymore and they have headed in that direction. Now if I had posted before that our Acura's are nothing more than rebadged Honda's you'd be annoyed as hell. They won't be able to use the rebadge bash anymore but Lexus and Infiniti have realized that if they are really ever going to match BMW or MB, they have to have unique separate platforms. I mean, my God if Lexus can realize it with the ES then Acura most certainly should.

I only used the ES as an example b/c of all the Japanese luxury vehicles, the ES is probably the one I hear and read the most of the "a rebadged Camry not worth the money" line and it does from the outside at least, look a lot like a Camry.

I do give Acura credit that starting with the 3G TL, even though it shared the Accord platform, they began differentiating the TL from the Accord in shape, style, looks, ride, handling, etc.

All I'm saying is, and its not going to happen over night, Acura should seriously consider following their examples and begin designing unique platforms to their line-up. It can only go to help their image in the luxury market so that people can't come on and throw around the rebadged Honda BS we always here. Some people, especially the enthusiast and ultra-prestige luxury community can't see paying the money for an Acura when its just a glorified Accord or Civic, etc in their eyes. If Acura changed that, then they might be able to attract more buyers to the brand.

Just a thought and my

I'm only trying to recommend stuff to help Acura.

winstrolvtec

We basically agree and are just saying many of the same stuff but I don't believe I am using a double standard cause where Acura is lacking in image and prestige is in part due to the global (not Accord) platform sharing and where Lexus and Infiniti lack is that many of their products are actually labled Nissan and Toyota in other parts of the world, maybe until just recently anyway. Even many of their NA luxury products have the Nissan and Toyota label on their windows, just as an example. I am not calling one a "rebadge" and the other not or that it means one is better than the other.

The best thing Acura should do as far as this aspect of appeal is to start to develop a new platform in the RL that can trickle down and to release the brand in more markets while Infiniti and Lexus should maybe start to develop more exclusive luxury division products or luxury brand distinction in their home market (Japan), which I believe Lexus has started.

I don't fault or think any less of any of these brands for doing this, I actually judge the final product not the branding or where else it's platform may be used. They all already build some of the best cars and in many cases this practice allows them to undercut the competition in pricing. If they can still make a superior product in ways that are a priority to me, why do I care if it uses it's own platform or not? Or if it's a Nissan in Japan? I don't buy cars because of other people's opinions of them and I don't want to pay more just because of a simple pointless facts. It's been proven that a seperate platform does not necessarily make for a better overall car in comparison.

TechnoCat

That's so wrong as to be painful. VW is not Audi; they have seperate engineering, manufacturing and history. Do you consider Mercedes to be GM because they often use GM A/C and hydraulics? But at least we've established a level of credibility to attach to your "knowledge" - zero.

pimpin-tl

Not sure what you are smoking but VW OWNS AUDI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi

Umm I use to own VW's and Audis. My Audi had the same engine in it that the Golf, Jetta have. The same buttons on the door for the windows, and so on.

Wow, now you start throwing insults because YOU THINK you know more than others here?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswa...oup_A_platform

But wait, this can't be per your knowledge...

http://www.greencarreports.com/blog/...10-vw-golf-tdi

Wow same cars...

Hmmmm..seems they share a lot.

pimpin-tl

Volkswagen will continue its pioneering work testing the boundaries between platform-sharing and brand-engineering, reports Autocar, with a new platform destined to underpin some 60 models globally. The modularen querbaukasten (modular transverse engine, or MQB) architecture will form the basis of models ranging from the sub-Golf Lupo to the Sharan MPV, starting with the next-gen Audi A3 which debuts in Europe in 2011. The key to the platform’s versatility is its adaptiveness to different wheelbases, tracks and wheel sizes. Says VW R&D Boss Ulrich Hackenberg:

It gives us the possibility to produce models from different segments and in varying sizes using the same basic front-end architectur. We can go from a typical hatchback to a saloon, cabriolet and SUV with only detailed changes to the size of the wheel carriers.

The new architecture will allow VW to replace some 18 engine-mounting architectures to a mere two, reportedly providing about 60 to 70 per cent parts commonality between Volkswagen’s biggest-selling models.

TechnoCat

Can I throw that sentence back at you in the future when you believe you make sense?

If Honda "forced" something (your words) down Honda's throat, Honda also CHOSE to do the same thing. Acura decided what Honda decided. Perhaps one or two marketing wonks in charge of the Acura brand didn't agree, but that's the case inside Honda own-brands, and inside Audi, Buick, BMW, and so on. Heck, BMW "forced" Chris Bangle down their own throat using your terms.

Perhaps I didn't understand your point because of how you phrased it. HondAcura chose to have the Legend. At the time it seemed rational to me; it seemed like the Sterling (remember that - Rover + Honda == Sterling?) anyhow, and that was sold here as decidedly upscale of a Honda.

pimpin-tl

Technocat, you have a bad history on this site already arguing with many members saying they are wrong because you think you are right with no proof. Why don't you chill out. Just a quick review of your posts shows many.

TechnoCat

Yeah sure. I've been to the Audi and VW factories. I can point out their histories. Portions of Audi predate VW significantly. Audi was formed of four companies that were NOT VW; the VW merger happened far later. Honda started Acura recently. Both the TL and Accord are built in the same plant in Marysville, Ohio. Which bit are you unable to understand?

Do you need proof that air exists, because you personally can't see it? If that's an example, in your mind, you have serious problems.

pimpin-tl

Did you just ignore the history link I gave you? Looks that way.

BTW, want a cookie?

winstrolvtec

You do understand that there are divisions within Honda? One on them happens to be Honda Japan which tends to call the shots, the other is Acura NA which wanted a dedictated flagship. So while it may all be Honda technically there are division which wanted different things and are in charge of different markets. So now go back and see if there is an issue with what I stated.

TechnoCat

No, VAG owns Audi. VAG also owns Seat (an Audi cooperative, now a brand), Skoda, Bugatti (which Audi manages) and VW. Each of those are separate companies inside the "Group" (the G of VAG), which is like an American "Conglomerate".

VAG did buy Audi, but didn't merge engineering or factories. Audi predated VW. Mercedes and Swatch created Smart (I think I have those brands right), but that doesn't make a Smart a Mercedes - different engineering groups, different cars, different manufacturing. BMW owns Mini, but that doesn't make a Cooper a 3-series.

BTW, using your logic, since Porsche has over half the voting shares of VAG, doesn't that make all VWs and Audis, Porsches?

Honda created Acura as a regional brand. It doesn't exist in England or Switzerland or The Netherlands or Germany, all of which I have worked in. Honda does. As do Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Smart, Mini and VW. You can buy essentially the same cars as the Acuras (I don't know about the current TL), but they are called "Honda". If you go to http://www.honda.com, Acura is the second clickable link - and logo. If you go to http://www.vw.com, you don't find Audi. No Audis on the site at all.

A better analog to Honda & Acura would be Plymouth and Dodge, or Buick and Cadillac. Caddy has some distinct engineering, and some very shared engineering inside the GM Corp.

LessisBestmakingendsmeet

Thank you. Winstorlvtec can you show us any comparison anywhere with the TL against the competition YOU THINK it goes against? From what we have seen for over a decade is it competes with the entry level class and it is bigger for its class (a selling point for some). I don't think we have seen one comparison of any TL vs the 5 series etc.

This makes absolutely no sense. 80-85% of the TLs sold are FWD models according to Acura. Most are like Lacrosse, ES buyers, they want a nice big entry level luxury car for a good price.

You are also forgetting the TL has always been Acura's volume sedan and in some years the best selling model. This model sadly has done very poorly in regards to sales.

And you really are all over the map here as we also know the TL is built alongside the Accord built by the same employees. Not sure where you are getting any of your information.

TechnoCat

My posts were out-of-sequence with yours. Let me go look...
Oh, to me that page (Wiki) supports what I'm saying... that VAG owns VW and Audi both, and apparently like eight other companies.

On the A3, it's an interesting question. The low A-series used to be very distinct. Audi engineered the initial platforms and engines that made their way to VW, but I think the A3 is going both ways, and I'd be hard-pressed to call it an Audi in any pure sense of the word. I would even concede that the TL shares less with an Accord than an A3 does with the VW equivalents.

And if you look in the past, I've never dinged the TL for platform-sharing. I don't think that's a problem. The gripes I have with the TL are the missing, but inexpensive, luxury touches like tiltable head restraints, flocking in the cubbies, folding seats, celsius display, flat trunk floor, usable iPod and voice searching, solid thunk rather than clink when I close the door, headlight washers (which I don't care much about), electrically tilting side mirrors, passenger back heater... lots of little things, but only the head restraints are a big thing to me. In my opinion, the TL rides and handles fine; I don't think Jane-Consumer is going to care that it was built on a Honda plant, while an A4 was built on an Audi plant.

pimpin-tl

Facts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_AG

VW owns Audi.

So Honda puts Acura on their main site. So what. It's a website. VW should do the same. It is still a fact that VW is Audi and they share the platforms and hardware between the cars.

pimpin-tl

My TL-S has tiltable head restraints, and so does our 09 TL.

Not many manufactures put folding rear seats because they can't dampen the noise as well. Infiniti, Lexus, Acura do not have this feature.

My TL-S has a flat trunk floor. Mine does a clunk and is as solid as my Audi was.

Do you really own a TL? Seriously.

TechnoCat

Gosh, this is almost like playing Whack-A-Mole at the arcade!
Both Honda North America and Acura North America are headquartered at: 1919 Torrance Blvd., Torrance, CA 90501.

It must be coincidental - Delaware was full, and New York charged too much for parking.

But I'm sure that they aren't even aware they're in the same building!

I don't disagree with your opinion that Acura should start a new platform. I don't mind the platform the TL is on, but differentiation would be good. I think they should:

• Buy back and scrap every Integra with neon or large mufflers installed
• Add the small luxuries that keep them "smart" instead of "real" luxury.
• Fix the beak.

And they'd have a winner.