graphicguy

Interesting video....

http://hondanews.com/categories/793/releases/5400

TechnoCat

This was mostly about the new TSX crossover wagon, but I call BS on his positioning of Acura. He spoke a lot about "Smart Luxury", but then defined luxury right out of it. And let's be honest... Conspicuous Consumption has been "out" for about one-and-a-half decades. You hardly ever see Ferraris and Lamborghinis anymore. Any time he mentions "Smart Luxury", remember all the luxury touches that the current Acuras lack. (See previous posts of mine for huge lists; others here have listed them too. The rental Dodge Charger I got while my TL is in the shop is a bit better at those touches than my TL!) "Smart Luxury" would presumably mean "upscale practical", which is not the same as "luxury". He said, "We've been studiously avoiding excess." Of course "excess" is in the eye of the beholder, but certainly failing to line the cubbies, or to create a quiet sunroof, or to providing folding rear seats, or to make the trunk floor flat, or to allow the climate control to work in celsius... those aren't the typical uses of the word "excess".

In other words, they're trying to compete with the Audi A4 Avant (his words) with a car finished like an upscale Mitsubishi, and calling that "smart luxury". Riiiiiiight....

He also proudly announces that Acura was names the ALG "2010 Residual Value Award Winner", making it (his words) "the most valuable nameplate."

Really? Because the Kelley Blue Book 2009 Brand Image awards went to:

• Best Value Brand: Toyota (Note: Acura is NOT Toyota)
• Coolest Brand: BMW
• Most Family Friendly Brand: Toyota
• Best Performance Brand: BMW
• Best Comfort Brand: Cadillac
• Best Exterior Design Brand — Luxury: BMW
• Best Exterior Design Brand — Non-Luxury: Nissan
• Best Interior Design Brand: Cadillac
• Best Prestige Brand: Mercedes-Benz

I don't see Acura on Value or any other category.

I'll grant you that this is largely about the TSX, but he talks about the flexible storage, which is sorely lacking in the TL. (The TL does have the other traits - it's very fast, nimble and responsive.)

So my take on Acura's take is that this was marketing drivel that implied anything Acura lacks is "excess" but anything Acura has as "smart".

charco

when will honda realize the euro Accord (TSX) can't compete with the 3-series in north america? even euro accord's main competitor in the europe is the 3-series!!

the markets are totally different, and tsx won't stand a chance to win in front of a 3-series in north america when the brand images come to mind.

simplest way to proof this is: when have you seen motor trend or car and driver uses the TSX for the entry level luxury sedan test along with 3-series, c-class, A4, G37, IS....... most journalist (and ppl) compare the 3-series with the TL......

YetiTL

I agree with TechnoCat, luxury usually means excess in one way or another...

KeithL

I will eb shocked if the TSX wagon makes it into the next gen TSX, I just don't see the market, the market is small crossovers, I don't see any wagons pnt he road except the oancient beater Olds. And 1 or 2 Dodges.

tmnhs81

They are doing it wrong.

BigBunks

idk about you guys but i bought my tl because it was a 4 door sports car within my price range which had a "new and young" feel and look to it. could have went with a bmw, but that would just be jumping on the bandwagon..jmo

D4V1D.TL

I can see station wagon in Europe being the big thing due to road infrastructure ( as in tight quarters ). In North America, I think SUV and Minivans are Kings and Queens, sorry, don't see station wagon making it big here.

Six Shifter

not having viewed the video, but just based on the few comments above ... one has to keep in mind that the "advant's" are to the Europeans as the "Station Wagons" were to the states back in the 60's. The last attempt at a wagon here only had a 2 year run if I recall correctly (the Magnum).

winstrolvtec

They already have the car in Europe so why not see how it does here? There is almost no additional costs to them bringing it here as opposed to engineering a new different model and at the same time they can expand the current lineup with something that Acura consumers have actually asked for. Win, win situation.

I don't care how Acura is viewed as a brand or what any publication or automotive enthuisiast has to say, Acura is a successful company, moreso then several popular luxury brands and they got that way because of what they do best. Regardless of what anybody thinks or writes about, that is the only thing that really matters at the end of the day. Every brand does what it does best and they all have their downsides but none play to their weaknesses only their strengths, why should Acura be any different?

If what they do well is align with what you value most in a car, you buy one. If it's not, then buy whatever brand that is. If no such thing exists don't take it all out on Acura.

Colin

LOL and you should see the indignant cries that they're not making a 6MT wagon! I hope I'm wrong and this thing is the "hot" ticket for 2011, but I'm not holding my breath. Maybe if gas hits 4.50 a gallon? (heck, we're at 3.50 for super here and over $4.00 on the outer islands)

Litt

The I4 engine, the 5 speed auto, and the FWD will limit it's appeal. Heck, even the crosstour has AWD.

Colin

^^Being a station wagon will be a self limiting factor as it is...

omnimax

I'm with you on this man...People rag on me for getting a TL but I just keep telling them that the TL matches me in all the categories that matter to me. The last thing I want to do is need external validation to justify something that doesn't quite match my needs/wants. Every brand has its own philosophy and each brand will cater to its own demographics whether purposely or by accident. We all bought TLs because it appealed to something in us that made want to spend $30K+ on some object and that's our common thread. The wagon may not cater to a lot of americans for reasons x,y and z but the wagon will definitely have its takers. Acura bean-counters most likely did some surveys and figured out that they shouldn't fall flat on their faces with this one. At the end, Acura has their own definition of "luxury" and they execute towards that definition. Its like your own set of friends. They match you in the areas you value and at the end, thats all that matters.

TechnoCat

You really should get that knee looked at, or strap it down so you don't hurt yourself!

Amazon.com is a successful company, moreso than (e.g.) Jaguar also. And neither Amazon nor Acura really compete directly with Jaguar. The TL (remember: This is the TL forum, not generic fanboy section.)... The TL is very good sports-sedan (measured by performance) and a good large (or mid-large) family sedan (measured by size and comfort, if we omit the lack of flexible storage due to non-folding seats.) But calling it "Smart Luxury" is not the same as being luxury - as having every surface soft-touch and quiet, as not omitting features like headlight washers, quiet sunroofs and flat trunk floors, as that special noise an Audi, Caddy or BMW door make when closed, as electrically-folding side mirrors, adjustable head restraints, etc. Several times in this forum posters (perhaps including you; I didn't double-check) wrote: "I don't need X - just one more thing to break"... which confirms that this is a near luxury car. A luxury car anticipates what you might want, rather than providing only what you need, and has sufficient engineering that they don't break. (I've never had pop-up headlight washers break, BTW.)

So yes, Acura is a successful car company. But "Smart Luxury" != "Unqualified Luxury."

Pete2010

a flat trunk != luxury
They could have just filled in that space to make it flat, then you'd have less cubic feet of space (doesn't sound very smart to me).

A quiet sunroof != luxury (Take your car to the dealer, mine is quiet, or better yet, get a device that can measure sound in db, and compare with one ) Because "quiet" is as subjective as looks. Maybe I've been to too many concerts and my ears are not as sensitive as yours.

Setting the temp in Celsius != Luxury (It's on Audi & BMW because those cars are made in a place that people use Celsius, this is as American of a car as you're going to get, and why add a feature that such a small segment of the population is going to use)

Smart Luxury = Enough luxury options so that it appeals to a large enough market, with a competitive price point. Also not including items that would essentially push the price of the car to over 50k.

It's an entry level luxury car. And if had all the bullshit that Audi and BMW and MB had, it's be at least 50k. Acura is able to compete (yes, they compete) against MB,BMW,Audi because people don't want to spend an extra 10 grand for what some people thing are useless luxury items. (Headlight washers, electrically-folding side mirrors, etc...etc...)

There's something to be said about glasshouses, as much as winstrolvtec is an Acura Fanboy, you're just as much of an Audi Fanboy. I bet if we looked at your posts, at least 50% of them would be making a comment about the car, and then saying how Audi did it better. We get it... you don't like this car.

Colin

Can't the TL be set to show temps in Celsius? I think its the 2nd or 3rd item in "meter setup"

Pete2010

^^ Yea, but I think Techno wants the climate control in C instead of F.

Colin

LOL, how luxurious.

JrcTL

What? You mean I can't set my climate control to C, that's it, I'm selling this piece of junk! lol

winstrolvtec

The first most obvious thing to say is you should talk when it comes to knee jerking reactions. I don’t have emotion, and personal feelings attached to my posts as you do, just facts and perspective. We get your point Tech, but luxury is not something that is objectively defined nor is “smart” in this case so I don't see how you can make such a strong argument around that. The term luxury is broad and highly variable. It is a perceptual, conditional and subjective attribute and may be understood differently by different people. What might be a luxury car to some may be ordinary to others and vice versa. You are speaking from a matter or personal preference and opinion only.

Your points and arguments are always the same. Still it's valid and an honest evaluation from your perspective but you need to calm down. It takes a rare individual who purchases a car and then complains about it and it's brand so much. That's like if I got an A4 (which I know I would not be happy with) then went to their forums and complained it was too small unreliable, overpriced, lacks performance, depreciated faster than a Hyundai and costs too much to maintain.

Everyone knows Acura's stance on their "level" of what you define as luxury. It is somewhat compromised in vehicles like the TL, TSX, and maybe RDX, to a degree but the rest of the lineup is right there with their competitive set. Whether you think these cars are luxury or near luxury vehicles, they still offer enough of a superior product in several ways that makes them successful and highly competitive, perhaps in other areas that I and most of us consider luxury, where you might not.

Most Acura consumers don't mind what might be only an adequate "luxury" vehicle and status in the area of refinement and a few features because to them things like value, reliability, resale, safety and low cost maintenance come first. And in the case of the TL and TSX they also welcome the added size and space compared their similarly priced competition and in some cases performance. That is the "smart" part. You should know that much since you are a prime example, you bought one, supposedly.

So you can't say the car is not luxury and even if you insist it isn‘t, what does that have to with anything? That's how they choose to do business, they will still sell and be largely successful and that is Acura's focus, not winning comparos or appeasing your personal definition of luxury which is not really that luxurious either. It's funny that you think an entry level Audi is so much more of a luxury sedan as opposed to an Acura. We are not talking about an A8 or even A6. You are even knocking their marketing campaign of "smart luxury". The "ultimate driving machine" when it's not in the shop or at the ulimate price, is not a better one or “defeating BMW in three straight C&D comparos“, admitting who your daddy is or “growing faster than BMW, MB, and Lexus” but still rather insignificant in comparison, only selling less than half of the units they sell in the US market, are not better ones. At least the Acura and BMW catch phrases identify what it is they represent as brands.

My point is it's impossible for any brand to appeal to every type of consumer. They will stick to their beliefs, philosophy and their markets. Bottom-line is, who likes it, will buy it, who doesn't, won't. I don’t bash on other cars and brands and somehow try to make them out to be on a lesser level or that they don’t compete. I know where others excel and have never shyed away from that, I simply state why it is I choose the car and brand I drive and why I didn’t choose other vehicles. Unfortunately you appear to not know what it even is you want in a car and I don't see what all your ranting is trying to prove.

TechnoCat

Ah, I see you have both knees going now. Good for you.

I'm not ranting. It just seems that way because you're on the extreme-fan-boy side of the equation and I'm on the somewhat-disappointed-buyer side of it. Someone precisely neutral might seem a bit of a booster to me, and would absolutely seem like a basher to you. You have demonstrated a complete inability to realize any shortcomings in the car at all, and an automatic defensiveness of it.

Which is all fine. Where we mostly disagree here is that I don't think luxury is quite as objective as you do. I do feel that the entry level A4 is more luxurious... but slower. (So, incidentally, is a Rolls Royce; you can't really make the argument that luxury and high-speed are synonymous.)

What do I want in a car? The TL SH-AWD comes close, falling down on the finishing touches and that dratted head restraint. Not expensive stuff, just stuff they didn't think of, but that BMW and Audi did... the stuff that makes them "luxury" cars. The Audi S4 comes close; it's a bit pricey though and I wanted a more comfortable suspension and more ground clearance. The Audi A4 comes close, but there's no six-cylinder stickshift version (shy of the S4.) The BMW 335ix might be it, but it simply wasn't available (with a standard transmission) when I needed a car.

So I'm not saying that the TL sucks. It's wicked fast, great handling (in good weather; in bad, you're better off in an Audi), large and comfortable (except the head restraint.) What sets your hot-button (and both knees) off is that I point out the shortcomings in the "luxury" classification. Call it a "sports-sedan" and I consider it a very good one at an exceptional value.

Spyris

Folding mirrors would be nice, so would electrical tilt/telescope steering like they have on the zdx would be nice as well, heck even the lane change assist would be awesome. Definitely "luxury" items that were not included in the TL. However, they did include a bunch of stuff in their base and tech package that I consider very luxurious, such as heated mirrors that I probably would never use in socal, leather seating (not leatherette like the base 3 series), heated front seats (not included in the a4 base models), 10 way power seating (not in the a4/3 series), advanced key option (not in base models), advanced surround sound that was ranked top, and the list goes on. I would consider this car very "smart luxury" Smart, because the premium you pay is less then the competitive european brand, and luxury because it is. I love my car and everything about it. This is not to say I don't like the s4. I did cross shop it, but what turned me off was I had to order one to the specs I wanted (basically the prestige package, white exterior, with split red/black seats), then I had to pay a 20k premium and wait 3 months for it. Versus the TL that was waiting for me at the dealership. Honestly, the value of the TL and all the luxury feature actually robbed Audi of a customer. But hey, luxury is how you define it and I think Acura did a pretty good job to target buyers like myself. It's definitely more luxurious than my Passat and it was hard leaving the VAG family.

Spyris

Too bad BMW didn't include reverse camera on their 3 series. Because I mean Acura did provide this even though I don't need it. I guess they could include sensors plus camera like on the Lexus's.

Seems to me like Acura did do a good job removing unnecessary excess, kept the luxury items, and at the same time kept the price lower to compete with the europeans; because if my TL costed at least 50-55k with all the accessory luxury items mentioned, I would definitely have gone the s4 route. And I'm sure so would a lot of other buyers on this forum.

Spyris

I would have to disagree here. A base level A4 has no advaced key option (a definite luxury item), no navigation, no premium surround sound stereo system, no garage door opener, no auto dimming mirror, no driver memory seat option, no HIDs, no chrome trim around windows, no LED tails, no AWD, and the list goes on. BUT I'm comparing your base level A4 to my SH-AWD plus Tech. Even so, the base TL IMO has more features than the base A4 and is cheaper and faster - such as HIDs, LED tails, etc.

winstrolvtec

That's why luxury is a broad term and is highly subjective. I think Tech is referring to refinement first, which can fall under luxury, then a few features which are not present in the TL but the opposite is true as well and we can make the same claim about an A4 not being luxurious because of it's lacking features but whether these items are considered luxury or not is also subjective. I can understand where Tech is coming from. The issues he has with the car stand out in his mind because these are things he valued and was very used to for a long time and change is usually hard to embrace.

A lot of the issues don't actually have anything to do with level of luxury or refinement they are just brand differences. The thing is when you get accustomed to something that you think is a great luxury car then go to a different luxury car, all that's "lacking" by one's opinion is usually automatically perceived as a bad thing and somehow it's inferior and not as luxurious mainly because it's interpreted that way instead of how it should be, simply as different.

Lets look at some of them. A flat trunk in no way represents luxury, neither do split folding rear seats. Check just how many luxury sedans don't come with split folding seats standard. Now it's not an option on the TL either but you get highly capable handling and better ride quality than most competitors because of this. Through all it's supposed faults the TL trunk still offers larger cargo capacity than most entry sedan trunks including the new and older A4. To play it the other way, to others simply not having that much cargo in first place regardless of anything else related to that, may not be considered luxurious.

Quiet sunroom. Ok besides being subjective, the comparison is to much smaller older A4 models so in turn you have a much smaller sunroof and body surfaces so less resistance. Also the TL is likely faster and capable of better acceleration so that all ties into it possibly being noisier. To some, like myself, not having a very large sunroom like the TL's may not be considered luxurious enough but I don't suggest other cars are only near luxury because of that.

The Celsius thing has absolutely nothing to do with luxury. This is a prime example of how one can associate what they prefer as being superior when it is not necessarily true. As we can see the vehicles are simply different and where one excels in an area of luxury the other excels in another area of luxury. Overall, I don't see one as being more luxurious than the other. I think it takes a little more than a fanboy to put this type of debate into perspective so while I appreciate the kind gesture, it looks like it takes one to know one.

TechnoCat

I guess calling them "brand differences" is fair... but right now I'm in a Dodge Charger SVT (?) rental, because my TL got rear ended. It's comfortable and has some features I miss in the TL that the Audis have - such as a flat trunk and interval signals. The doors are very TL-like - hard surfaces, cubbies but no padding. But the flip-down sunglass holder is better padded (and quieter) than in the TL.

I'm not really saying the Charger is equivalent to the TL, but rather that the slope of saying the TL is "luxury" pretty much also guarantees that any other car over $25000 probably can qualify.

cp3117

As usual you have hit everything pretty much dead on "Techno".

The TL is a Great/Awesome "Sport Sedan" but falls a little short when it comes to the "LUXURY Sport Sedan" segment. This really shouldnt be a surprise though as even Acura management has admitted giving up on the Tier 1 segment last year.

winstrolvtec

I don't want to sound like a total fanboy all the time, there is some truth to this but a little short as a luxury sport sedan, or a little short compared to a few of the better or best luxury sport sedans? There is a difference.

It's hard to actually say because it's usually a matter of opinion but it seems many people (around here anyway) find it above a G in terms of the overall luxury theme and on par with the Lexus in the IS and ES and even the MB C class, all of which are still pretty good in this area. Maybe with a few regards to luxury, a BMW 3 or Audi A4 might slightly edge it out but a comparably equipped and evenly priced product of theirs to an Acura TL SH is only a 328xi and A4 2.0T, both a little more than slightly lacking in the overall sport theme IMO. At best you trade luxury for more sport, it's not as if you pay the SAME price in something else and get more luxury AND sport.

csmeance

Not to be the party crasher, but the 4G TL competes with the 5 series in size. The 2G TSX competes now with the 3 Series.

Also please refrain from insulting members, keep it civil

winstrolvtec

^ I would have to agree, in that case it is a compromised luxury sedan up against mid levels but certainly not in sport and you save in the area of $15k-$20k.

Sapere

Totally agree with you there. The term "luxury" is a very relative term. Comparing the 4G TL to a civic, it is definitely more luxurious. But when comparing it to like a fully loaded Lexus LS 600h, the 4G TL is nowhere near it in terms of luxury features, prices aside.

The fully loaded lexus comes with:
-Massage seats (Can you imagine??)
-4 zone climate control
-LED headlights
-Rear seat dvd player + screens
-Lane change assist

Now THAT is luxury, and the list goes on and on.....then of course, it comes at almost x4 the price of a new 4G TL. Can we then conclude anything less than that as being non-luxury? I am positively sure none of the 3 series, A4, G, C-series come with all of those, even for fully loaded ones. Point being, 4G TL isn't the most luxury car in the world, but should we dismiss it completely as being a luxury sedan? That is very debatable.

PetesTL

The 4G is officially categorized as an entry level luxury car.....the emphasis on "entry".....it's got just enough features and conveniences to distinguish itself from the mainstream vanilla people haulers, and priced so that it's not out of the reach of the "average joe." It's the kind of car that someone who's upgrading from an Accord or Camry might be interested in. Nowdays however, a fully loaded Camry or a Maxima is priced so close to a TL that it's no longer that big of a jump as it used to be. Actually, a loaded Maxima or a Camry has just as many features as the TL when you get right down to it (and in the case of the Maxima, maybe more). Nowdays, with so many "mainstream" cars having features that were once called luxury, I don't consider a car a true Luxury car anymore unless it's a S-class, 7-series, or a Bentley.

graphicguy

Funny you mentioned a Maxima. Just rode and drove in one a friend of mine just purchased. As you point out, it costs very, very near what a base TL with Tech cost (he got his Maxima all loaded up).

I know build quality and quality of materials in the Maxima aren't anywhere near what the TL offers. I don't know what it is with Nissan's CVT automatic, nor the one in the G37, but they can't seem to get automatics quite right. I didn't like the tranny in the Maxima, nor did I like it in the G. Now, maybe you have to get used to either one of them. But, I've driven the Maxima once, and the G37 3 different times. Nissan/Infiniti overall don't make an automatic that I like.

As far as what's considered luxury and what isn't, I'm not getting into that debate. What I consider luxury and what others do, well....I think it boils down to personal opinion.

KES

I drove the Maxima and found to my surprise liked the CVT. The power was always there and the car just responded. Very smooth and never lacking.

As to the G the transmission never seems to be satisfied with the gear it is in and I thought the shifts were harsh.

smarty666

Well, suffice it to say, I got a 2010 Max SV and I love the car. The CVT is smooth and extremely efficient. It does take some getting used to after growing up and always having regular automatics but you can't beat the fuel economy. For 290 HP and 261lbs of torque, I'm getting a 25mpg avg with 31-34mpg on open highway/interstate. I don't hear anyone with the base TL (280HP) or AWD (305HP0 engine getting that kind of fuel economy.

I do agree though, the material quality/fit and finish with interior of the TL is nicer than the Maxima, the Maxima's exterior style one me over, over the current TL! The TL has gotten to be too big, especially in length, for my taste. Plus, I have really loved my heated steering wheel in the winter time that the TL doesn't come with. J/K! Both are really nice cars and you can't go wrong with either one!

Litt

It doesn't make sense to compare the 4G to the LS600h. You could just as easily say that the LS600h is shiite, and not real luxury, because it is no Rolls-Royce Phantom. It is all relative.

Sapere

My point precisely!

eazy

iTrader: (8)

+1

TLSprinter

I understand all of this. Many people fail to realize that part of the reason that even some hondas out perform Audis (base-base) is because Honda/Acura's are light and because they max the v-6 potential of their engines. Adding features add's weight and therefore kills mpg and performance. Acura, as they are making the RL bigger with a V8 will be adding length and features, but will also be adding a v8 to keep it nimble.

They are very meticulous in introducing products, and maybe people get frustrated but it's for the viability of the company. Reason why my TL can get 0-60 in less that 6 seconds and other v-8's struggle to match or match only just.

I will agree that Acura should capitalize on the driving experience, technology, and engines than the "luxury and prestige" branding. My gf has an 09 Range Rover and she's amazed with the accessibility and "common sense" of Tech of the TL.

last point. Lexus has all the amenities but they chose not to focus on the performance of the engine and all of their cars are heavy! Even Toyotas. They left the performance to their smallest car, the IS. Best performing car for BMW the 3 series (handling). Acura has made every car a better ride but keeping electronics down (weight) and again getting the full potential out of V-6 engine.

Done rambling!