compewterbleu

Driven the 3G extensively...and I disagree totally. I never before have seen so many people hate on a car they do not own or bought something then let others affect their choice. And that's me speaking before I purchased the 4G.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Our opinions on this are not the point. I would encourage you to re-read what I said.

winstrolvtec

Not to be contradicting as I am genuinely curious, what ways do some feel the 4G is worse that is not entirely something of opinion or subjectivity?

smarty666

Actually, that is a great point you bring up! Not just with the TL, but with any car, criticisms are only based on opinion, even if its given by a automotive mag professional, lay person, etc. There is not an almighty book that says this is bad and this is good.

The problem lies in, any constructive criticism any one of us has on the 4G, at least, any I have given, is taken by some posters as personal and they just come out and say our opinions are wrong b/c they don't jive with their own. I just don't know why some take it so personally. Its just a car for God sake. No matter what car your talking about, not everyone is going to like it but some people can't be adult enough to accept it.

Whats more disturbing, is the people who attack us 3G owners b/c of our opinion and basically say how much of a piece of trash the 3G was and how much better the 4G is. I mean, I think the 4G improved in a few areas but its far from being worlds better than the 3G as some are claiming it to be. I don't think they would like it if when the 5G came out, those owners called the 4G TL crap or inferior, etc.

smarty666

No I don't think the point would stick, b/c unlike you, I peel my bananas like everyone else! Your not suppose to eat the peels you know

MurkyRiversTL

FanBoy?? really?? You failed to quote the rest of my post where I wrote about the auto tranny failures, but that's ok. If you need to make your point by leaving out important information to make yourself look good, go right ahead.

The argument you make can go both ways. Just because YOU think its necessary doesn't mean it belongs in a luxury car. Rolls Royce are the epitome of luxury cars and they do not have a folding rear seat.

BTW everything else you said in your thread is lacking SENSE. Read, re-read, then re-read again before hitting submit on your post. Then come back and make a good argument. Friend

MurkyRiversTL

When I had my 2g we knew that the 3g was far superior to the 2g and we respected that, and completely understood that. I dont think there is a single 2g member who has not been more than willing to buy a 3g if the price was right or if they could trade straight across. Everyone likes more power, better gas mileage, more technology and more comfort. If you dont then perhaps the 70's should be your era of vehicles. BTW, if the 5g comes out and its exceptionally better than the 4g, I will have no problems with admitting that its better. There is nothing wrong with not owning the best car ever made.

No one, at least not me, is taking the negative comments personally. i didnt design the damn car, but I am happy that someone did. I have grown to like the exterior, and I will be honest in saying that I was one of the many who was disgusted by the front grille, but it has grown on me tremendously.
Im very pleased with my decision, and the point Ive been trying to make this whole time, is who really cares about how many sales Acura makes. I highly doubt that anyone on this forum goes to other forums posting how crappy their manufacturers sales have gotten. You would be flamed to no end for that kind of post. Its acceptable here for the reason that the mod has stated, because the 4g section is slow lol.

Infiniti, BMW, 3G owners, get off your high horse. Every car manufacturer has issues, and they arent going to be resolved with posting sales numbers, or talking negatively.

TechnoCat

Winslo... do you actually re-read before pushing the "post" button? You actually simultaneously stated that the TL is in the same league (others are "only marginally better"), and then dodge all the missing items. Bizarre.

I'll try to respond to what I think was your point. I agree, and even stated (though you were too reactionary to read it; I think you couldn't see past your knee jerking), that the TL has better performance at the price. Trouble for your position is, so does a Subaru WRX. Pure handling is not a primary part of luxury; rather it's wrapped in as part of the overall capability and coddling that comes with it.

And the point of "pure stock" is a reasonable one, but misses the minor detail that the things the TL is missing for this segment are things those other cars have at the low-end base model. They don't have the nav package or seat heaters in their base models necessarily, but they do (when added) have proper voice and ipod controls and back heaters, and they do have padded cubbies, quiet sunroofs, interval wipers, headlight washers (typically), flat trunk floors, survivable head restraints.

Which again means the TL is on a different vector. It's a high-performance family sports sedan. That's where the money went. Even you tend to state this, right before you then claim that it's also a luxury car, able to leap ledges and makes a wonderful low-cal dessert topping.

TechnoCat

Actually, I replied to it, mentioning reliability. I forgot to factor in your specific level of literacy and reading comprehension. I'll try to remember to use smaller words next time.

Real men have sticks anyhow.
Fair enough, though the idea isn't that every feature belongs in every car. It's more that "luxury" consists of many features that are not, strictly, necessary but that you may be glad to have.

After seeing the trouble you had understanding the message, I can sympathize that so much of the world makes so little sense to you. Don't worry... the internet is a nice safe place to play.

MurkyRiversTL

Actually, you didnt reply to the whole post. The size of your words are not confusing, its the context in which you use them. I can use the largest and longest words in the world to make a post but it doesnt necessarily mean that its going to make sense. Oh and if you consider your previous post one of lengthy words, I feel sorry for when you actually have to write something that requires meaning and detail.

Really, seems a little fruity to me.

So because one person would be glad to have a folding rear seat, Acura has failed at making a luxury car? There are quite a lot of things that certain people would like in their cars, but until those people become a design engineer for a car manufacturer, we are stuck with what is given to us.

I cant help but to notice that you are getting a little touchy when you reply to my posts. If I am affecting you on a personal level, I do apologize. I thought the internet was a "safe place to play" but perhaps I should take into consideration the sensitivity levels of some ofthe semi-mature audience in this forum. Please, do not take my posts personally.

Im thinking I should make a disclaimer in my signature just for you TechnoKitty.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

That's interesting. So the owners only complain when it's bad news and OBVIOUSLY is then HATRED.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Thank you. I was actually getting pissed off by the first page of whining babies going up in arms against Keith because OMFG, a thread was made that doesn't like the direction or style of the TL and that consumers are loving it. It's like they forgot who they were even talking about.

They only want the good news, that much is clear.

winstrolvtec

I responding to every item you hit on, there was no dodging. How could I not have? Afterall it was about 2000 words, eight+ paragraphs and never once did I deny or confirm being a fanboy, I don't know what that has to do with the discussion anyway.

The TL is IMO on the same league as all entry level vehicles and what I said was that others in range may be marginally better, AT BEST. But if you got the point you would understand that this and the whole luxury theme is largely subjective. That's why your idea of luxury is very different than mine.

You say "but they do when added", so does that mean their stock models are not luxury and their well equipped ones are? This logic makes no sense. One's opinion of a vehicle's amount of luxury or refinement only defines the vehicle within the class, it does not define the class itself. There is no such thing as "luxury" class distinctions officially. Luxury can vary within a class of cars, that does not move one up or the other down.

Sure those other vehicles like the A4 or 3 series may have more of what might be considered luxury orientation in stock form but that depends on who you ask. My TL does not have what I considered a noisy sunroof, most of my cubbies and storage areas are padded, it has proper voice and ipod controls, my not so flat trunk floor is awesome in that things don't tend to roll around as much, it also has the best head restraints I have ever experienced. So by me having a different experince or opinion of the same exact car mean I have a luxury version TL and you don't?

This logic also makes no sense. You can't form a discussion around what is or isn't luxury when the only standards you have for such a thing are only your own. Now I understand you can't go around and say luxury is so subjective that an S class is on the same luxury level of a Honda Accord. There are enough quality and refinement differences to warrant that type of distinction but we are talking about a TL or something similar, like an ES vs a 3 series or A4. Are there differences? Sure. Enough to consider them in different luxury ranks if such a thing even existed? I don't think so but we can argue opinions all day, that's all this discussion is actually about.

MrX123

Wanna race?

TechnoCat

It's not specifically the rear seats; it's all the discretionary features. Try to remember past the last hour's posts, going back months instead. The TL is missing many many things that are in the cars usually tagged as "luxury". No single feature (except perhaps leather seats) would remove a car from being considered "luxury", but strip out, for example, any six (pick a number really) of the following:

• Electrically adjustable seats
• Available seat heaters (with back support for the passenger too)
• Trip Computer with range, mpg
• Voice controls for the nav (if nav equipped)
• iPod, Aux equipped
• BT Speakerphone equipped
• Folding rear seats
• Seat memories
• Auto-dim mirrors
• Rear backup sensor or camera
• Padded storage cubbies all over
• Interval signals
• Headlight washers
• Quiet fully-adjustable sun/moonroof
• One-touch-down windows
• Ability to open up (and close) car with the remote or key from outside
• External temp. gauge (with celsius option)
• Digital (not just rotary with temps painted on, a la Volvo) dual-zone thermostate
• Under-sill lighting
• Dim on/Dim off interior lighting
• Reading lights
• Tilt-adjustable head restraints
• Tire pressure sensors
• Available On-Star or equivalent t one-touch aid
• Friendly trunk - high lid when open, trunk handle for closing, cargo net, flat floor.
• Advanced engineering. (Doesn't have to be ultra-fast, but luxury cars were the first with ABS for example, and with electronic stability.)

This isn't a comprehensive list. More of a guideline. And the TL (with Tech) has most of it... but so do many other cars. If you choose a high enough "inclusion" number, or silly enough features (carpet, cruise control), a contemporary Scion or Honda Fit qualifies... which is fair considering they are "luxury" cars by 1975 standards.

I don't think 0-60 factors heavily onto that list; that's the "Performance" tag. Many clear luxury cars by Cadillac, Mercedes and even BMW are clearly not "Performance" cars by speed or slalom times. So you can buy...

• A performance car
• A luxury car
• A wagon (AKA Touring, Avant) vs sedan vs coupe

And possibly even all three (BMW 535: Luxury performance coupe), or pay a lot of money for just two of the three (Lotus Elise: Performance Coupe, but no luxury.)

To me, the TL SH-AWD is clearly a performance sedan, and would have been a luxury sedan 15 years ago, but they left off a lot of little details that would push it all the way there. "Near-Luxury", yes, but there are a lot of cars in that category. Once you decide that Honda's "Smart"-luxury is luxury, What separates the Honda TL from the Hyundia Genesis?

TechnoCat

(I've snipped the rest merely for brevity.)

I'm beginning to wonder if we got completely different types of TLs. Mine is the 2010 TL SH-AWD 6MT. The head restraints are very aggressive, there's no padding the sunglasses or door pockets, nor in the main center console walls, the voice system cannot select an artist or song from the iPod, the trunk floor is not flat, the seats do not fold, and with a rear window open at all, the moonroof is very noisy. (It's fine when all windows are closed.)

What year/trim-line is your TL? I'm wondering if it's a different line. For example, I would imagine (or at least hope) that the FWD model has a flat trunk... though I've had 15+ years of Audi Quattros all with flat trunks.

Pete2010

The TL is an Entry-Lux sports sedan. It was when I got my TSX, It was when I got my TL-S, it still was when I got my 4G. If you want a Luxury Sedan go take a look at Lexus. If you want a Luxury Sport Sedan, take a look at BMW or Audi. This is a Entry Level Luxury Sport Sedan.

The car is exactly what Acura markets it as. Smart Luxury. Also known as Entry Level Luxury. And Techno - seriously, stop listing your subjective items that you think should be different and therefore not luxury. Headrests are subjective, Sunroof loudness is subjective (Unless you show me some db numbers). And last time I checked every car manufacturer has the same crappy iPod interface...

To answer the question above, What separates the Honda TL from the Hyundia Genesis? Build Quality. They may have the same features, but the TL will hold up better over time because they use better materials to manufacture their cars.

compewterbleu

See you could of left the whiny part out man, let it go. Folks are just done with hearing 90% of negative comment come from the same sources.

compewterbleu

The Champ is here*boom bommba boom boom* the Champ is here *boom bommba boom boom*...I'm gonna float like a butterfly and sting like a bee! LOL!

MurkyRiversTL

Most of the items you have listed here are options on any of the "luxury" vehicles you have on the pedestal in your mind. A base Audi or a base BMW or even a base Mercedes do not have all those features. But do you know what does have most of those features on a base model...... oh you guessed it, the Acura TL. And for a few grand more you can have all of the important (to me) qualities that you have listed. Honestly, who needs headlight washers? Obviously Acura thought Canada needed them and *poof* they are on the Canada models.

Go on the Acura website and build a TL with all of the options you can think of, then go to any of your glorified luxury car websites and build a comparably equipped one and tell me the price difference. And no, its not better cause it costs more.

ssim3

The TL has many flaws, as every car does, to me I would not buy one paying that much for a fwd car, I know shawd is available had it done it got the shirt in an 06 RL. SHAWD saps too much power, esp with the 5 sp auto and typical Honda power high in the rev range no low end tq. The RL & my E have the same baisic hp ratings but the E feels much more responsive. If Acura wants to be a major player in the $40k sedan market it is going to have to bite the bullet & offer a rwd chasis.

compewterbleu

It appears that's in the works. You aren't going to get but so much power transfered to any vehicle FWD or RWD. You get more power to a FWD car because of physics...however the trick is controlling the power to the wheels doing the steering. Pushing a load is much more work than pulling it.

MurkyRiversTL

So then we aren't considering audi a major player then, right?

ssim3

E Class-4,865 (includes coupes)
5 series-3,865
MKS-1,029
M37/56-1,196
S80-816
A6-686

3 series-7,195
C class-5,563
G37 both-3,613
A4-3,142

I would say by these results they are mid pack, no where near the rwd comp.

MurkyRiversTL

and these numbers indicate??????

BEAR-AvHistory

The truth of the matter is physics unloads the front tires when power is quickly applied whereas the rear tires are loaded.

That is why any one drag racing with a strip only car runs 90/10 shocks in the front & 50/50 in back. This eases the weight transfer to the back wheels & hold the front up as long as possible keeping the weight shifted on to the driving wheels.

Simple test anyone can do. Punch it from a standing start & watch the hood come up. That is the weight coming off the front wheels & shifting rearward.

compewterbleu

So very true. Having lived where it snows I liked the FWD...and that was my first cars system too. RWDis a bang when that rear gets to swinging...but OMG! AWD in the this TL is something. I'd like to drive the AWD Porsche 911...ooooowww.

ssim3

That in the mid sized luxury market buyers prefer rwd based platforms6:1 to fwd based. I would say that is not a major player.

TechnoCat

This is precisely the attitude that proves the TL isn't a luxury car. But, as a tip, I did. I lived down muddy twisty mountain (paved) roads until about two months ago. It makes a difference.

To me, so many of your (and Winslo's) responses sound very much like you guys live by the sales slick rather than by actual experience. And yes, by "specification" (which never mentions the little things), the TL is definitely an A4/3-series equivalent. You say I put Audi on a pedestal, but let's ask the counter-question: How many Audi/BMW/Mercedes cars have you (and Winslovetc) owned for at least six months?

MurkyRiversTL

I have never owned an Audi/BMW/Mercedes. Audi for good reason, which I have explained previously. BMW was an option for my most recent purchase as well as the C class Mercedes, but I couldnt see myself spending 5k+ more for a car that the TL compared to. Plus I can rely on Honda/Acura quality (and you can shout fan-boy from the top of a mountain, but its loyalty to a quality product. If that is fan-boy than so be it.)

Now i have worked on many cars, including Audi and BMW (never had the pleasure of working on a Mercedes) My best friend drives a 2006 Audi A4 that I took possession of for several weeks, and within that time frame I experienced things that an Audi customer should not experience. Flashing CEL's, Failure to start, rattling sunroof like you wouldnt believe. Sure it had some awesome qualities but all of that wonderful folding-rear-seat luxury is overlooked by the sheer terror involved when the engine shutters to a halt. Poor design, and lack of support from the manufacturer. If thats luxury, then Ill stick to my non-luxury Acura TL.

Oh and wash your car, you wont need headlight washers.

winstrolvtec

How does that attitude reflect or prove whether a vehicle is officially considered luxury or not? The US TL doesn't have headlight washers because a very small percentage need or want it. The Canadian model has them, is it really more luxurious than the US version simply because of that or the fact that you want them?

Perhaps to you and your luxury standards but since there is no real luxury standards that exist which define what is near luxury and what is actually luxury, your ignorant remarks against the TL not being a luxury vehicle is always only your opinion and should be treated as such, mainly by you.

It's the same concept of why we see less 6MT's made available but are those cars not to be considered sports sedans or vehicles simply because of that?

When your vehicle experience is different after 15+ years, I don't care what brand you go to, you will know what those differences are almost immediately. The luxury experience varies quite a bit from any one brand to another and in all brands that fall under the luxury title in general.

The problem here is I don't think you realize that none of your issues you like to point out can even make a case for being considered luxury if they are not even objective in the first place. Another issue is your reference, which is always Audi and your perception of it being a superior luxury brand, which may or may not be the case but it is to you (fair enough), making you think things that are naturally different between the two, which is very much the case for any or all cars in comparison as well, somehow makes one a luxury vehicle and the other not.

So no there is nothing being proved here except for your own opinion. To even demonstrate anything more, you would first need to have a true definiton of what luxury is, then you would need to show how the objective differences between the two models or brands is significant enough to warrant a different class or luxury distinction as well. Good luck.

TechnoCat

Okay, now we understand the context. Your opinion is valid, of course, as is mine, but now at least we know that my opinion is based on living with these various vehicles, and yours is based on, partly, bad experiences with a borrowed car.

No matter how recently you washed your car, a drive in an autumn rain on a leafy muddy mountain road with traffic will have the headlights grimed and grunged in no time. Light snow will have them filtered. Headlight washers really do an amazing job at clearing that stuff away. I didn't believe in them when I got my first car so equipped, but they really work.

My recollection is that Victorville is essentially in the desert? (I did an emergency landing at a tiny strip in Apple Valley once, which I recall was near it.) I live in the land of perpetual mist. When I lived in coastal Southern California, you could keep your car shiny-clean easily. Washing it twice a year could do it! But here, most of the year, in two days you can't tell. And AWD gets used for safety-traction rather than just performance, and headlight washers matter, and seat heaters matter more than in the Mojave. Then again, we don't have nearly as much need to open the car windows remotely or to close all the windows and sunroof with a key or button press (I don't know if the TL supports that; my Audis did, but I didn't need it), or a really fast AC (which the TL does seem to have).

MurkyRiversTL

I may have borrowed the car which gave me enough time to see the major faults with that car, and I would completely understand if it were a one car freak of nature kinda thing. But check Audizine and see how many members have had the same issues in which I have described. I had the car long enough to become a member of Audizine and makes posts and comments regarding these problems.

I am far from the coast, but I understand what you are saying. Ive lived in El Dorado Hills, Ca. where it is constantly raining, drizzling, and as you said, misty. I can see how driving on some of the roads out there would require the use of headlight washers. i suppose I could think outside of my box on some of the issues.

When I wash my car, the same day it is covered in dust. The bad thing about the desert is that there arent enough buildings and trees to keep the dust from getting everywhere. I was my car 3 times a week at least, and apply a good coat of wax every other week. Also, the AWD will get put to use out here. Just last year it snowed so bad, for SoCal lol, that a lot of the cars on the road were losing control. They still had there summer tires on their RWD cars and couldnt seem to keep the wheels from spinning. There were a terrible number of accidents and blocked roads due to people sliding and blocking each other. Californians are not use to that type of weather and it was apparent that day.

So I will not be one of those people when it happens to snow like crazy again.

TechnoCat

Was that just you admitting you have no actual relevant long-term experience in the cars you keep claiming the TL is equivalent to?

This thread was initially about Acura trying to move the TL "up market". Not about whether it's a "luxury" car officially, but about what prevents it from really competing with BMW/Mercedes/Lincoln/Audi/Cadillac. The term "luxury" here isn't meant to be an official moniker, but rather short-hand for the extra details in the other vehicles...details that you disdain but apparently have no experience with. But... do keep in mind that Acura gave up on being "Tier 1"; John Mendel announced "Smart Luxury" as the replacement... which includes "emotional styling the buyers expect." (Please google and check the quote before you let your jerking knee type a response this time.) You can see how well the styling has worked out for them. But it also means Acura realizes it's not a "luxury" car. It's a caveated-luxury car.

MurkyRiversTL

Is Lincoln really considered a Luxury car...... seriously?????/ Lincoln?

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

The Lincoln brand isn't any less luxury to me, but that's me.

smarty666

I am not trying to start a debate or argument but could someone please provide me a link where someone from Acura stated that the TL and TSX were being moved up market from their prior positions back with the 1G TSX and 3G TL?

I'm just curious b/c people keep mentioning this and I've never been able to find or read something that Acura made these statements? If they did, I'd love to see it so I can see if came from the horses mouth!

P.S. - By the way, I am talking from Acura corporate, not from the grapevine at the stealership level where rumors can be mixed with facts! I've seen that time and time again.

MurkyRiversTL

any less luxury than acura? or any less luxury than the pedestal group everyone refers to.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

No, that's why I said "not any less", comparing Lincoln to Acura. With some of these new products though, that might change fast. Or maybe not if Acura moves on up too.

Idk.

MurkyRiversTL

Hmmm, I dont see Lincoln as a competitor for Acura, but then again i havent looked at Lincolns in a while.