graphicguy

Keith...not to ding your new ride, as I like it. But, any car....BMW, Infiniti, etc is going to take a huge hit when you're trading it in in its current model year. Dealers have to low ball it so they can offer a lower (much lower) price than one can be bought new.

I bet if you took your current M to a BMW dealer to do a trade on a current 5 series, you'd be really shocked how much it has depreciated in just the short time you've had it.

Anyway, enjoy your new ride.

compewterbleu

Sounds like dude is saying you made your mind up so move to another forum. The M, you love it cool. sales numbers are not always reflective of whether a car is beautiful or not. Subaru's outsell many other models in the Pocono's area of PA because it function over style. Infinit's marketing approach is different...you gave an example of that yourself with the trade in perks.

As far as your Acura loyalty...like New England's SB's the it's a bit tainted, IMO because if anyone should know that the Acura following is about more than following a pretty face. It's about the vehicle from the ground up. The soul of Acura. That's why there is the "Temple of the V-Tec", that's why folks still sing praise of the Legend and Integra. I see more mod-Acura's every were I go. Now if Acura were recalling the cars every year and the quality was reduced or the product just sucked I surely wouldn't vilify anyone who steered away from it.

Chevy men are going to drive a Ford Mustang. They are loyal to the brand because in their mind the brand was loyal to them. Am I brand loyal, yes nearly 10 years in a 3.2 CL w/Nav....I waited for the suits to bless another 2dr coupe, didn't happen. However the CL was sweet, didn't feel the 3G TL's initially but was tempted. Waited to see what the hell was next from Acura...4G TL, 4G TL....4G TL

TechnoCat

Spoken like a true knee-jerk fan-boy!

Were you responding to my post out of context? Because you don't seem to have realized there was an actual sub-thread: Why can't Acura move the TL up-market?

To that, your response comes across as an automatic knee-jerk display of fan-boy defensiveness. Turning your words around, the TL lacks some features you don't care about (parroting Winslovtec there - apparently if YOU don't care, it doesn't matter that it's missing), while luxuries the TL offers that are missing in Audi/BMW consist of quality, value and engine technology. Feh! Any of the new cars is far higher quality than the very best cars 20 years ago. It's almost like saying, "That 2 bedroom house with the vinyl floor is a more luxurious house than the McMansion beside it because it has 100 watt bulbs rather than 75 watt bulbs in all the sockets, because there's less to go wrong, and because I don't NEED an upstairs deck outside the bedroom."

BTW, let me help you and Winnie out a bit here... if you think it's unnecessary, that doesn't mean it doesn't belong in a "luxury" car. In fact, unless it's really out of place, that probably means it does belong in a luxury car. Voice tuning, interval signals (missing in the TL), auto-dimming mirrors, mirrors tilting down when backing up, leather, outside temperature, keyless entry... much of what separates the TL from the Fit is "luxury" and much of what separates the A4/328 from the TL is also "luxury" on the same vector.

Pete2010

Thanks - I need more AZine to keep from doing actual work.

TechnoCat

BTW, I caught my S.O. shopping Audis for me this past weekend. I really do miss the finishing touches that Acura left out - the little luxuries. But here's a list of things I do like about the TL SH-AWD.

• Engine. It could use more low-end torque, but it's a fun fast raspy beast.
• Transmission. Some people have griped about the stick; I like it. Some shifts are hard to make, but it's overall one of the better ones.
• Ride. There's a thread right now asking if it's too firm. Compared to my S4, it's soft and comfy. I think they got it about right.
• Seats. (Except the evil head restraints, which should be replaced.) Comfortable, adjustable, good looking.
• Audio system. The iPod interface is astonishingly bad, as is the lack of search and voice-search, but the sound is good and I like that it can have both Aux and iPod connected at the same time.
• Bluetooth phone - one of the best I've run into. It gets out-of-sync sometimes, but the sound is good.
• Interior space. It's not all well used (no padded cubbies or underseat drawers), but the car is huge inside.
• Nav system (excluding audio interface) - Some great features, some odd oversights. Perhaps the worst search feature I've run into, but the XM integration is up to current snuff.
• Handling - this puppy can corner.
• Spaceship interior. I'm accustommed to the slightly toned down interiors of Audi/BMW/Mercedes. This isn't as Rice Racer as a Mitsubishi, but has tons of lit buttons and gauges. Looks like the inside of a Viper from the original BSG. And not too techno.
• Easy to use AC/Audio controls. Not too integrated into the Nav system.

KeithL

I have alwayes had good and bad to say about every one of my TLs and every car, I try to be objective. Sure it looks like I bought and M and am slamming the TL, not the case, look at the posts I made since getting my M to people deciding between FWD and AWD and my glowing recommedations of the AWD. Sure there are die hard loyalists and I was clost to that, to a point. Some people will follow a brand no matter what, I was loyal until I felt let down by the brand. Not a huge deal I move on and may return some day. Die hard loyalaty actually can hurt a brand because unless that base is big enough to sustain the brand the company needs to appeal to the masses. And while I loved the 4G TL it is clear it did nto appeal to the masses, sure it appeals to many, it is no a Pontiac Aztek, but the styling does put people off. I will always have more positive than negative feedback on the 4G TL, it is an awesome ride. But no matter how good of a car it is I have to enjoy all of it and the looks never really won me over. I admit the styling grew on me a little by the time I got rid of it, but I never ever said wow what a great looking car like I did with all my 3G TLs.

smarty666

I don't want to sound like I'm nitpicking and this is nothing against you personally but b/c you brought it up and its been a big bone of contention with me and Acura ever since I got my first TL I just had to comment on it and it directed not at you but Acura!

I've had 3 back surgeries and thus major low back issues and heated seats are a big deal for someone in my position. It just pisses me off to no end how Acura does not heat the back side of the front passenger seat in their vehicles and then uses the god damn passenger air bag sensor as an excuse! Its just so ridiculous its not even funny. Every other god damn automaker has passenger air bags sensors and they all can heat up the back side of the passenger seat as well. You mean to tell me Acura is not intelligent or ingenious enough to heat it up like everyone else can. C-mon Acura

BEAR-AvHistory

The sales number threads were started by a big fan (one of the "DOC's" IIRC) of the 2009 4G to demonstrate, at the time, it was doing just as well as some of the competitors especially the Infinity G in a very bad economy.

It has just been continued each month, by any number of guys, when the numbers came out even when the TL sales went south.

Its just a case of taking the good news with the bad news. Personally I find the numbers interesting but certainly not a decision point in my replacement of the 3G TL 6MT. So far I have sat it out waiting to see what the refresh looks like & for my grandkids to get their drivers licenses.

My grandkids driving drops the 4 door requirement for the replacement.

Based on what the mid model change looks like I will get a TL AWD, a BMW 335 IS Coupe or a G-37S coupe. So far the IS is the choice.

jspagna1

I have been driving my sisters 2007 G35X and I still think the G is way too uncomfortable and absolutely would not take it on a long trip for that specific reason.
Both the TL & G have plenty of power for me, so that is not an issue for me. Comfort & styleing is.
A lot more people look at my wife's 4G TL than people look at the G.
I also think the new M just looks like an overweight G IMO.
And speaking of car sales,I read an interesting article in my local paper concerning the issue.

Auto sales put on the brakes

Industry analysts trim forecasts for 2010 as fewer shoppers show up at dealerships.

http://www.courant.com/business/la-f...,2806489.story

smarty666

I'm not surprised you get looks with the new TL. Even though I'm not crazy about the new grill, the 4G TL is much new looking and different/stands out then the current G Sedan. Let's face facts, the G Sedan never really went through a major redesign between the 1st Gen and 2nd Gen except for minor front/rear end changes and interior changes. The design is really beginning to look dated and a little bit more on the dull side. Its long over due for a major body style change which is suppose to come with the 3G G Sedan/coupe as a 2012 model at the end of 2011. I just hope they don't wait an extra year till they do it at the end of 2012 as a 2013 model.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

Please refrain from making personal attacks and calling out other members. Thanks.

EDIT- please dont criticize KeithL- he has provided well balanced reviews in the past. No need to think he has bad intentions here.

KeithL

They have been quiet on when the refresh is coming, they are pimping their Essence conscept for a while now, they say th M is first to have styling hints of the concept car, I do agree the M has major hints of G on steroids and even hints form the Maxima. I am wondering if Infiniti will milk a full 5th year out of the current G seeing the sales are good, or go for a 2012 new G in early 2011 as they did with the M, but M sales were down to a few hundred a month so they needed the new M ASAP! There are some interesting videos on youtube of the Infinit marking team giving press previews of the M and their design objectives and targets, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVAFb...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQys8...eature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkNOC...eature=channel

I'd love to see more of that from Acura, I have seen those early ones where the guy talks about the Keen Edge styling, but I woudl love to knwo what the marketing team was targeting.

compewterbleu

So what you are saying is certain people can just bombard us with other brands literature non-stop?

compewterbleu

Nawh, I'll pass on the Renault/Nissan kool-aid thank you.

smarty666

Nothing to do with kool-aid simply b/c you don't like them. Its nice to see companies like Infiniti and Audi, unlike Acura, come out with clear focus on what they want to do and what direction they plan on taking their companies!

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I would agree. I do think that there is some bias in those who parade Infiniti a bit too much....because despite their efforts and reputation their sales are not taking off (last year was only similar to Acura correct?). The G37 still makes up over 50% of their sales if I recall correctly.

BUT Infiniti DOES get it, something Acura does not these days.

I have plenty of hope left for Acura though, as it's almost like Infiniti's 90s predicament where they just had a bunch of slushmobiles and seemingly were going nowhere. Well, some things do change.

smarty666

Well something that will add to Infiniti sales starting next year is the introduction of the new entry level G25. Infiniti has lacked a priced competitor model to Acura TSX and Lexus IS250 and that will change the dynamic a little with the G25 in the mix since it will be priced below the current G37. The lower the price of a vehicle, the more people who can afford it.

Not saying that is going to solve all of Infiniti's sales woes but it will help improve them.

Infiniti's luxury cross-over market is going to have to change as well and I think Infiniti knows it. The EX35 has not done well in sales since day 1 for several reasons and the FX, while I love mine, they didn't do much for change in the body style in the 2G in 2009 and its sales are mediocre at best. Both the EX and FX are going to need to be radically changed and have some of their short comings addressed in order to make them more desirable and increase sales.

compewterbleu

If I were a Redskins fan why would I go to a Cowboys forum to post?

If I were a Laker's fan why would I go to a Celtics page to post?

I don't drive a infiniti? do most of the Acura owners on this Acura forum drive one?
Last I time looked on the home pages heading it read Acurazine: the unofficial Acura enthusiast resource. not nissan, not bmw, not renault...

Resource, here's part of the definition from Webster, a source of supply or support.

smarty666

I drive a Infiniti and a Acura so !

You'll come to find that I'm not a lone and that some moderators and other members drive other luxury and non-luxury makes besides from Acura so becareful how badly you put down other automakes.

compewterbleu

Whose focus...your interpretation? I could flip the question back at you about the 4G TL, Just because you don't find it to your liking. Your view on who is focused or not is an opinion.

compewterbleu

I'm on an Acura forum not another automakers forum. And you don't drive a 4G Tl of any kind correct..I'm not alone on that sentiment either.

smarty666

No, we were talking about two different things here. Your making a stink about the poster who put up Infiniti's design and long-term focus. That is what I was commenting on, that they come out with a clear and upfront discussion of what they want to do with their company. I could care less if you like their designs or not. Your certainly entitled not to like their vehicles. Unlike you, I'm perfectly fine with people not liking the designs or styles of the automakers or vehicles I have. Everyone is entitled to their !

I have every right after having two TLs to give my opinion on the 4G. I've stated what I like and what I don't like. You seem to have a problem with anyone who has something negative to say about the 4G and take it personally.

smarty666

I test drove the 4G a few times and have had one as a loaner car for a few days so you don't have to lease or own one in order to get a sense of how it drives or experience and came to a well informed decision.

Get a clue, there are plenty of forums/discussions on ACURAzine that talks about everything but Acura and its all on a Acura board so I suggest you take a look at the automotive news and car talk sections, among others, before you make a statement that this acura site should only talk about Acura.

compewterbleu

I drove a 630i convertible and a 745 for a whole freaking 2 weeks...ownership makes a difference. It's like being married and dating someone. The BMW's didn't suit me. My nephew who owns them even acknowledged they were more about status for him and the fact he could drop $40K down on each and them shoe them up with $20K for rims. I had the '01 CL at the time and he was impressed with the car. They are worlds apart though.

I got the clue on your views a few post back...

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Simple: Because you CAN.

There's no law against visiting AZ sections for cars you don't view as number one is there?

No need to continue complaining about my presence then right? Live with it.

winstrolvtec

When have I ever pointed out that the TL is necessarily the best car on all levels. There are many other brands that may also do some things better or different, otherwise we would all be driving the same thing. If luxury and refinement are your biggest priorities then a TL might not be entirely for you but anything within the TL's price range is only marginally better in that area at best. The TL is still very good in that regard especially for an entry priced sedan. It's gets even better considering the real equivalent in both price and feature content is a 328xi and A4 2.0T.

Don't think for a second that everyone buys your attempt at making an A4 or 3 series, etc, appear so much more luxury oriented and refined than it is. You even go as far to say that they deserve a luxury title while the TL is only worthy of near luxury. Have you actually compared the newer or latest products side by side?

"Just one more thing to break" is not my quote, that is the second time you have attempted to use something I didn't say against me to appear as though I am some blind fanboy and to detract from whatever it is you are. Who else here is complaining about a sunroof deflector or headlight washers, good for Acura making my product more cost effective. The truth is when you go elsewhere (especially German) you are paying for all those extra features to be researched, developed, pre-wire, and potentially implemented whether you option for them or not.

Your take on how the TL is never actually comparably equipped is wrong. You want to consider these things for one side and not the other, yet you claim you have no ulterior motive and that you actually own this car. The Audi or BMW vehicle doesn't give the same type of reliability and safety standards, the resale is worse, there long term maintenance costs are almost double, their size to dollar ratio is a joke in comparison, as is their power and performance to dollar especially when you look at the best comparably equipped and priced 328xi and A4 vs the SH.

NO active torque vectoring system at this price range. You get no TPMS readout only an icon, you get a smaller trunk in both cases no matter how useless you think the TL's is. No ACE body structure, no standard electric steering. They also don't include the USB/ipod link, it's extra, you don't get the top rated ELS surround system, should I keep going?

You seem to want to do YOUR take on this car vs others or use only YOUR opinion or purely subjective matter like luxury and styling and your personal issues and never seem to focus on the objective or anything from a general view or approach. You don't seem to consider that you and your opinions are not the final say in what is good or bad about the car or all cars to anybody else, since no one here has half the issue you do with the TL and you don't have half the issue most of us do with a 3 or A4, etc.

The only thing you seem to be proving is that you made a bad choice for yourself and were better off elsewhere because what you appear to value the most in a car is not Acura's priority. They excel in all the objective areas but because the one subjective area you favor the most is only good, not great (in your opinion), you let that take away from the vehicle as a whole and other areas where it is clearly and objectively superior than most, if not all.

We hear the argument that this is more refined and that more luxury oriented which is subjective in the first place but how about when we measure to the same price point and most cars are bone stock with nothing, no packages, features or options compared to the TL yet it is still considered more of a luxury vehicle, how?

I understand features don't make for luxury alone but even if a car is slightly more refined but now lacks the luxury features and amenities that are present in the TL for the same price, they are now only equal in terms of a broader luxury scale. How can one insist that one car still offers more luxury than the other?

Perhaps most fail to consider that there should be more to upscale or up-market than just a few opinions of luxury and refinement or what they think they are or should be. Even so, what makes for a better luxury vehicle does not necessarily mean it makes for a better vehicle as a whole or even at all. You are living proof of that, all the negative things you have to say are almost meaningless because it's the car you still bought in the end, supposedly. That says everything all by itself.

compewterbleu

I enjoy your presence here, oh I truly do. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy...I'm sure you like my company as well, buddy

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

The whole cost effective argument is damaging to the luxury car game, I'll say that much. And to anyone thinking the TL is a real competitor to the M, 5-Series, or E-Class and uses the claim of value, then really that's saying the Accord is better than a TL based on its features and "value".

Value only is a bonus in the luxury car game. If it is used as an actural card to play, chances are pretty good the said car isn't as competitive.

I'm sure he doesn't think that everyone buys into the luxury thing, especially on a site like AZ. That doesn't make him wrong. The materials in those cars are better. They didn't used to be, but nowadays yes.

And I too would categorize the TL as near luxury (competitors: Maxima, ES, MKZ) and the 3-Series/A4 as some form of compact luxury with an entirely different set of buyers because of their differences.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Actually I sincerely do. People with opposing views give me energy because I can't just make circular arguments like a fanboy if I want to make an actual point against an intelligent, less than biased, individual.

I certainly wouldn't hop onto a forum where my view was shared by everyone. That's a little too comfortable for my taste.

compewterbleu

Some 3-series...there are those with the pleather, fake leather, I mean leatherette...LOL!
You slay me man, you really do...near luxury from the 1st primer Japanese Luxury automaker....sheeesh. Acura get no respect, no respect at all from you

compewterbleu

...hey your tie looks a little loose on that haters suit of yours, let me tighten it up for you, YANK! J/K! LOL!

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

Yeah it's stupid that it's faux as standard, but there is the option to upgrade. That hardly is a case for reduced status.

Acura's best era gets plenty of respect from me; it just so happens that said era has passed. The Legend, 2-3G TL, current MDX and RDX, all of these were from times where Acura made progress. With the current TSX, TL, RL (once one of the best but has been left for dead), ZDX, the era has ended, or is ending.

You have simply formed this opinion based on my views of the TL. When I bought my TL in 2004 Acura was one of the finest upscale brand engines for progress in style, technology, and quality.

compewterbleu

3G good, 4G better. Fake is fake and if I purchased a fur for a sweet sexy thing and found out the collar was aux and for 5K I could get all fur I'd be pissed. *PETA it's just an example, okay*

Acura's passed era garners respect from you because you have an older era car and got caught up in it's greatness...my opinion. It's like boxing, Ali was the man but age caught up to him and Holmes took over then Mike...it happens. The 3G was the champ, may it live in retirement peacefully, because every time I see one in my vicinity I make sure I smoke it....like a swisher sweet, they do smell good.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I'm sorry but never before in the Acura mold have I seen so many owners displeased with the replacement (except maybe the RL replacing the Legend, which is a whole 'nother discussion). This isn't me being swept up in anything, or else I probably wouldn't be viewing the RL and MDX replacements as being so much better than the old version.

Same goes for the 2G TSX compared to the 1G.

I have driven the TL multiple times over now, and better is really an opinion because there are a number of factual ways in which it is worse or unchanged yet noticable more expensive.

BEAR-AvHistory

I must have missed the bombarding part. One of the guys posted he switched to a BMW5 & another to a M35. Both have been here for a lot of years & IMHO paid their dues.

I expect we all post differing opinions because its a discussion board not a lemming board. Also some of us have been here a lot longer then you, have owned more TL's then you & also have other cars on or soon to be in their driveways that are of general interest to "car/motorcycle enthusiasts".

I don't think we need anyone telling us what we can & can't post since this board already has monitors who can direct the discussion if it get way off track.

That has to be balanced against the lack of posting traffic if every post is limited to my 4G is wonderful because & its as good as, pick your Tier I of choice, at a much cheaper price.

If there is not enough traffic the lights will get turned out pretty quickly.

compewterbleu

I'm not telling you anything, I can't. Not your boss. So when does paying your dues equate to others having sit on the sidelines and admire alternative post when positive post are digged at every turn.

My bad for just observing the board over the years and not opting to jump in and out of Acura's to get my car count up...I just stuck with mine because it was a great vehicle. Oh wait I can't say that. I haven't been here long and I own a 4G...I better go trade it in a few times then I'll be legit. Thanks for catching me up on how things are done.

winstrolvtec

Value is also subjective and is intreptred by each individually differently based on their preferences. I didn't necessarily call anything a better value overall than anything else, the subjective is as big a part as the objective and is not something I can decide for someone else just because it's a good buy for myself.

Well you think the materials in the 3G are better than the ones in the 4G and I have the opposite opinion, so it really goes to show how subjecive these things can be it and that it can't really be measured in any objective way. You shouldn't categorize or class based on subjective and opinion, you can only use the objective.

I don't think the TL is a real or direct competitor to a 5 or E class vehicles but it is IMO a budget or poor man's version, sacrificing luxury and refinement but specifically the SH version because of it's platform and performance capabilities in comparison. Similar to a CTS where the FWD model is best suited as an ES type vehicle.

I don't think the marginal material or refinement differences between those vehicles warrants a different class all by itself, perhaps because they are different types of vehicles with different sizes and purposes but not because of the subjective luxury or near luxury. That would be hard to judge and it creates a problem with who gets decide that or what standards they use to determine it. My own opinion or your own opinion of where they class based on "luxury" is one thing but officially, no such thing exists.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

I agree up until the third paragraph, where I should've been clearly. That wasn't me pointing my finger at you. I was referring to other posters that I've noticed. My mistake if I conveyed that poorly.

The final paragraph is actually where I begin to disagree. I DO think those things brings it to the next class. Is that easy? No. Subjective? Hell yeah.

That's why there's no actual definition of a luxury car.

smarty666

I think you just proved my point I was trying to make about you! Thanks a bunch!!

compewterbleu

No problem, enjoy the bananas and hopefully the point don't stick ya'